Gary
All-Star
Shoot, on this topic we all know I know whats best for the team and I am the greatest judge of talent, and chemistry among players/coaches!!!
So that being said I RULE.
Playoff-quality
- Thread starter Mozart
- Start date
Shoot, on this topic we all know I know whats best for the team and I am the greatest judge of talent, and chemistry among players/coaches!!!
So that being said I RULE.
I think that trying to correlate time as a fan with opinion about rebuilding is simply wrong. Remembering Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes as rookies, or Reggie Theus as a King, does nothing to make me question the need to rebuild through the draft. The suggestion that my opinion can only be held by a relative newcomer is not only untrue, but insulting by its very nature.
So does calling someone a "fair weather fan."
Now can we please get back to the topic at hand? We were ALL new to the Kings at one point in time.
Wrong.
The OP edited his post to add the "in the making" after Rockmeister had quoted him. SHE is NOT the one who changed the meaning.
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
Dime Dropper
All-Star
He never called anyone that. I did and I apologised. No need to bring it up when it's done with. I don't think jerryaki was defending me, merely pointing out what someone else had said.
Anyways, I have no problem admitting that I became a fan during '01 season. I was very young, just discovered basketball and was looking for a team to follow. I was lucky enough to see the Kings play, and, well, you know the rest.
I have been a die hard fan since, I am a fan of the team, I always will be and my love for them has never wavered, not once. I was always be a lifelong supporter, through good times and bad. I don't care how long it takes to rebuild this team, I will wait my entire life if needs be. And this is from someone away from almost any basketball coverage (televised, anyway), no opportunity to speak in person with any other Kings fan, and no way of going to a game. The downside to living in Europe.
Thankfully, it's looking like I may get the opportunity to live in America (at least until I finish college) and see some games when I finish highschool.
carmichaeldave
Bench
Good job Dime Dropper. I for one pretty much agree entirely with everything said in his posts here.....its a hard thing to say amongst kings fans, but its dead on.
IMO:
1. The Kings are nowhere near a contending team
2. They either must package Bibby and/or Artest with contracts (KT, etc) and clear cap room, or wait until 2010 to get a FA shot.
3. All winning really does right now is lower your draft status, and placate certain fans.
4. Of course the Kings and Coach T said they're a playoff caliber team, what else would they say? Coach T also supported Musselman all year last season, so there's that as well. Grain of salt.
All wins really do right now is make some people happy in the short term. Its a merry-go-round, and just depends on your fan philosophy. If you just want to see the team try hard, high five, smile, and win as much as possible, then 30+ wins make sense.
My philosophy is simple.....there are far more positives out of an 0-82 season than a first round playoff exit. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING should be geared towards a title.
1. Set yourself up in the draft.
2. Get rid of veteran, big contracts (or exiting players like Artest) for ANY sort of value (young players, draft picks, or expiring deals).....
3. Play and develop the youngs. I really dont care about Mikki Moore getting playing time, its absolutely pointless. Like the Raiders failing the JaMarcus Russell situation, the Kings should be playing Hawes/J. Williams every possible minute.
4. When Bibby comes back, play him long enough to show the league he's healthy, let him take 40 shots a game and focus the offense ENTIRELY around him. After he puts up a couple 30 point nights, trade him for ANYTHING that involves cap relief and/or picks. If you get really lucky, you can package KT with him. Seriously. If you had the opportunity to find a team desparate enough to take both Bibby and KT, if they offered you a donut sandwich back, you should be driving them to the airport.
Trade Artest now when you can get something, ANYTHING for him. This is the most likely way to get KTs contract gone. Artest is gone next year, get something for him now.
Let guys like Udrih, K-Mart, Salmons, Garcia, and Hawes be the bridge to the future. Do everything to continue their development. THEY are the ones who should be getting 40 minutes a game, screw the Win/Loss record.
IMO, that's how you build a future. That's how you become a contender. Everything else is just window dressing.
Some people are ok with a pacific division banner. I am not in that crowd.
IMO:
1. The Kings are nowhere near a contending team
2. They either must package Bibby and/or Artest with contracts (KT, etc) and clear cap room, or wait until 2010 to get a FA shot.
3. All winning really does right now is lower your draft status, and placate certain fans.
4. Of course the Kings and Coach T said they're a playoff caliber team, what else would they say? Coach T also supported Musselman all year last season, so there's that as well. Grain of salt.
All wins really do right now is make some people happy in the short term. Its a merry-go-round, and just depends on your fan philosophy. If you just want to see the team try hard, high five, smile, and win as much as possible, then 30+ wins make sense.
My philosophy is simple.....there are far more positives out of an 0-82 season than a first round playoff exit. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING should be geared towards a title.
1. Set yourself up in the draft.
2. Get rid of veteran, big contracts (or exiting players like Artest) for ANY sort of value (young players, draft picks, or expiring deals).....
3. Play and develop the youngs. I really dont care about Mikki Moore getting playing time, its absolutely pointless. Like the Raiders failing the JaMarcus Russell situation, the Kings should be playing Hawes/J. Williams every possible minute.
4. When Bibby comes back, play him long enough to show the league he's healthy, let him take 40 shots a game and focus the offense ENTIRELY around him. After he puts up a couple 30 point nights, trade him for ANYTHING that involves cap relief and/or picks. If you get really lucky, you can package KT with him. Seriously. If you had the opportunity to find a team desparate enough to take both Bibby and KT, if they offered you a donut sandwich back, you should be driving them to the airport.
Trade Artest now when you can get something, ANYTHING for him. This is the most likely way to get KTs contract gone. Artest is gone next year, get something for him now.
Let guys like Udrih, K-Mart, Salmons, Garcia, and Hawes be the bridge to the future. Do everything to continue their development. THEY are the ones who should be getting 40 minutes a game, screw the Win/Loss record.
IMO, that's how you build a future. That's how you become a contender. Everything else is just window dressing.
Some people are ok with a pacific division banner. I am not in that crowd.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Shoot, on this topic we all know I know whats best for the team and I am the greatest judge of talent, and chemistry among players/coaches!!!
So that being said I RULE.
Now that's the attitude I like.
I was barely 5 feet tall when the Kings were new to me in 1985.
(I'm 6'0 now, btw)
I was barely 5 feet tall when the Kings came to town in 1985...
Unfortunately, I'm still barely 5 feet tall.
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
Yes, as do I. Like I always say, until your team wins a title, they have nothing to brag about. The Kings are no better than the Dallas Mavericks and Cleveland Cavaliers of the world, and no fan, even as satisfying as it might have been to make the WCF in 2002, that means nothing if you dont win a ring. Everything should be focused on winning a title, not focused on mediocrity.
kupman
Starter
Alright, I will come out and disagree with this, as well as just about everything in the CD post. Winning a title is great, but it is not the end all and be all. To me, athletic competition is much more about process than outcome. It has been a very, very long time since this franchise has won a title, yet it is my opinion that we have plenty to brag about.
Also, I think that I have made my feelings about the lottery vs. a playoff birth known here, so I will not get into it yet again.
The problem is one of practicality, too. People are NOT going to attend games to see a team lose for a better spot in the draft. You and I both know it's just not going to happen.
Fans in the seats are in the moment. They want to see a win - not a loss.
A successful franchise, for the most part, has to balance the two. It's much easier to climb the ladder with a goal in sight than it is to gladly accept getting worse on the promise that things will eventually turn around.
Do I want to see the Kings get a title in my lifetime? Hell, yes. Why wouldn't I? But am I grounded enough to realize the paper theory of getting worse to get better is most likely not going to happen? Hell, yes again.
Petrie will, IMHO, do the best he can to rebuild this team but he is not going to empty Arco to do it. And he would be a fool if he did. It's not just about the goal. It's also about the journey.
Entity
Hall of Famer
I would like somebody to explain to me EXACTLY what the Kings organization should do. I mean I see alot of people saying lose games to get a higher pick. NO TEAM is goint to tank a full season so get that out of your heads. Then I hear well trade Bibby and/or Artest so we won't be that good and get some picks or youngster. Do you expect not to get any talent back? Have Beno, Martin, Garcia, Salmons not proven they can still be a formidable team without Artest and Bibby? Nobody can say play the youngsters anymore because we are. As far as Hawes goes 10 min a game at 19 years old coming off KNEE SURGURY is plenty if you want this kid to have any kind of future.
The optomist are not the problem here so don't act as if its our fault we are not bad enough to get that illustrious top 10 pick. I mean you get mad when we want this team to make the playoffs. But why? nothing you can do or I can do. So why not hope for the best at all times. So instead of getting upset when ppl say we can make the playoffs. Explain to me how you expect to be bad enough to get a good pick. Even if we do there is no garuntee. So I see ppl saying it takes 2 or 3 years to build via the draft we will just have to wait. Well in 2 or 3 years all of our BIG contracts are gone and we can then build via free agency or trade for picks or what not. But seriously face the facts WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET A GREAT DRAFT PICK as long as we have the talent we do. Unless we trade Martin, Salmons, Garcia, Artest, Bibby, Miller for scrubs we will in the 12 to 17 range come draft day. I for one don't want to see us win each night and never at ANY point during the game do I look toward a draft that MIGHT give us a great player or we could get #1 pick and he turn out to be a BUM.
So does anybody want to propose to me what you think should happen that probably won't.
The optomist are not the problem here so don't act as if its our fault we are not bad enough to get that illustrious top 10 pick. I mean you get mad when we want this team to make the playoffs. But why? nothing you can do or I can do. So why not hope for the best at all times. So instead of getting upset when ppl say we can make the playoffs. Explain to me how you expect to be bad enough to get a good pick. Even if we do there is no garuntee. So I see ppl saying it takes 2 or 3 years to build via the draft we will just have to wait. Well in 2 or 3 years all of our BIG contracts are gone and we can then build via free agency or trade for picks or what not. But seriously face the facts WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET A GREAT DRAFT PICK as long as we have the talent we do. Unless we trade Martin, Salmons, Garcia, Artest, Bibby, Miller for scrubs we will in the 12 to 17 range come draft day. I for one don't want to see us win each night and never at ANY point during the game do I look toward a draft that MIGHT give us a great player or we could get #1 pick and he turn out to be a BUM.
So does anybody want to propose to me what you think should happen that probably won't.
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
And Arco is very full right now??(other than tonight)
Entity
Hall of Famer
I KNOW let's snap our magic trade fingers where we get exactly what we want and lose 70 games (we got to win one against the Lakers) and get that #1 pick. Then maybe they won't have to fly on planes any more because they will have magic wings to go along with the trade fingers. OR better year they all have shinny shoes and can clank them together and say theres no place like home.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
He already has.
People are not going to show up and pay $5000+ for a pair of tickets to watch a 38 win team anymore than a 28 win team. They are both losers. Jsut one of the two gets rewarded for being a loser with a top draft pick, while the other is left to wallow. And if we squeak into the playoffs as a 42 win #8 seed? My prediction is they have a hard time selling out the home playoff games. Turn into one of those towns. You simply HAVE to get the corner turned, the bottom reached, hope for the future, even just longterm future, restored. Otherwise you get stuck.
As an aside -- right now the #8 seed in the West is winning 57% of its games (and its got a bunch of pursuers close on its tail). That's a 47 win pace. You know what the Kings record would have to be from here on out to win 47? 36-19! (.655 54win pace)
Entity
Hall of Famer
I reinterate. What do you want them to do? tank the season? I mean its easy for you and I say how many wins or losses it takes to get what you proved that with your little stats. But what please tell me what you think the Organization should do EXACTLY.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I have to agree with what you are saying here. They are already selling this team to the public like you would a young rebuilding team anyway. "Come watch our Kings play hard!". It's not really all that difficult to understand what they are saying here, is it? Now they just need to follow through and do what needs to be done, we can't lose any more value on the trade pieces we have and can't let anymore walk away in free agency because we are "re-tooling". Not to mention the only rebuilding we've done so far is of the wall of veteren players placed in front of the young ones. We haven't seen the effect yet do to injury but when Bibby/Martin come back it could get ugly! I also think with the young talent we have, when compared to their readiness and talent, some success may not be too far behind with the right cap situation, and another good lotto pick.
I would be very surprised to see the number 8 seed rack up 47 wins this year, but odds are we won't make that kind of turnaround.
carmichaeldave
Bench
Hey entity:
If you would care to scroll up a few posts (post #67 in this thread), I believe I for one outlined step by step a basic plan. I tried to be as EXACT as possible. If you would like to respond point for point, that would be cool.
Just saying, I think I did just what you asked....
carmichaeldave
Bench
People are not attending games now, as seen by the new non-sellout streak. There will always be a core group of fans that renew regardless of record, there will always be bandwagon fans that show up based on record and status, and then there will always be the fans in the middle. Not much of a difference IMO.
I believe most fans in and out of the seats (where the majority of revenue comes from....tv contracts, etc) want to see a title contender.
San Antonio sucked for years till they got Robinson, then tanked for a year when he was out to get Duncan. The Celtics are a great example of a team that sucked last year, and turned it right around with a pick (Ray Allen) and a FA signing. No better example. Dallas sucked till they got Dirk in the draft. Phoenix got Marion and Stoudemire with lottery picks, and signed Nash. There is down time for most if not all current title contenders. Most fans of those teams dont really remember nor care about the lean years, they managed to forgive the franchise and be fickle. Winning cures most maladies, but MEANINGFUL wins, not just record padding, forsaking the future.
See above.
Arco will never be empty. There are too many fans that are there through thick and thin. But it is "emptier". The fans will come around with a solid, laid out direction. If you're going to rebuild (which they must), then rebuild completely. Its not just in the NBA. The Florida Marlins do this about once every few years, and they have two titles for it. The A's are a farm club for bigger teams, they manage to be involved in the title race more often than not. How bout Portland this year (without Oden), Denver, New Orleans, the Lakers with the emergence of Bynum, Orlando with the pick of Howard, Nelson, and letting McGrady go, even Atlanta thru years of ineptitude is finally improving simply because they had about 2200 lottery picks to get it right. Toronto got Bosh thru the lottery.
These were mostly joke teams 3 years ago, if not last season. But they went thru some lean times in order to reload for the future, and its a bright one in most cases.
Winning a game to get 35 wins instead of 25 does nothing except lose lottery spots. You dont get a reward for being the 9th seed instead of the 12th. Wasting money on Mikki Moore and giving him playing time ahead of Hawes or even Williams is akin to having a heart problem, and getting an inhaler. Sure, you might breathe better, but you are sacrificing your future and not addressing the problem. Keeping Artest on this team when you pretty much know he is gone next year is vanity, plain and simple.
People ask about tanking. You're right, no one will tank. But if you gut the team, keep the core players you dont have to package with dead weight for cap space, you wont need to "tank". You will lose all on your own, simply because you are devoid of talent.
My last late night analogy:
If you are a painter, and your painting is messed up, you can do one of two things....
1. Try to cover it up with more paint, until your canvas is too heavy and unrecognizable, and still ugly....
or
2. Crumple it up, accept that you must start all over again, and start FRESH.
The Kings canvas has too much cover up paint. The sooner you start over, the better. That, or just deal with below average play until 2010....then hope for the best.
Entity
Hall of Famer
OK I did and I didn't get past the second step before i quit reading. #1 How by tanking the season. Try selling that to the members of the current kings roster.
#2 get rid of veterans. Do you have the magic wand that automatically makes other GM's take your vets and give you young talent and picks.
Like I said i didn't read past #2 Its easy to say those things but, they can't be done without full cooperation from every player and GM and coach in the entire league trying to rebuild your team.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
When a team is over the cap which most teams are, a trade has to involve salaries within 25% of each other. I do not understand how a trade frees up significant cap space. Somebody explain this to me.
In particular, I do not know any deal that is better than having 4 large contracts expire in 2010 which is our position right now. Bibby's expires in 2009. In 2010 we have more mature young players (Hawes, Martin, Cisco, blah, blah, blah) and we will be at least $20 mil under the cap. Then we go free agent hunting.
How can we get into this position quicker? And no, what is written above does not explain the "how". What I have read above involves losing every good mature player we have except for the youngsters I have mentioned. Doing so is definitely rebuilding but the rebuild cannot result in a great team by 2010 which is exactly where we are right now.
Can we wait two years to hunt for a free agent or two? It requires no unspecified trades, no CBA cheating, no magic, and no cooperation from other teams who may have their own ideas of what they want to do with their players and draft picks.
Going along the path that is being followed right now can result in a great team!
In particular, I do not know any deal that is better than having 4 large contracts expire in 2010 which is our position right now. Bibby's expires in 2009. In 2010 we have more mature young players (Hawes, Martin, Cisco, blah, blah, blah) and we will be at least $20 mil under the cap. Then we go free agent hunting.
How can we get into this position quicker? And no, what is written above does not explain the "how". What I have read above involves losing every good mature player we have except for the youngsters I have mentioned. Doing so is definitely rebuilding but the rebuild cannot result in a great team by 2010 which is exactly where we are right now.
Can we wait two years to hunt for a free agent or two? It requires no unspecified trades, no CBA cheating, no magic, and no cooperation from other teams who may have their own ideas of what they want to do with their players and draft picks.
Going along the path that is being followed right now can result in a great team!
Last edited:
Entity
Hall of Famer
I have nothing to add I just wanted it to be seen again.
Minnesota's doing it right now, by design. A bunch of teams did it last year, and at least one player on one of those teams admitted as much to the press, despite the possibility of extreme sanctions from the NBA. So I'll get it out of my head that teams tank, when teams stop tanking.
That would be the idea, yes. Rookies, picks, expiring worthless vets.
Not really. Look back at the games during Artest's suspension; the team stunk, despite still having Martin. Beno helped, but not nearly enough to give this team a prayer of winning the division, making the WCF, or accomplishing anything else worthy of note.
Recent (and much more serious) KNEE SURGERY doesn't seem to be stopping Amare from putting in 35 minutes a game. I think that Spencer's pretty well healed by now. I think that Justin's pretty uninjured, too. Yes, giving them more minutes is shooting ourselves in the foot, in a way -- if Justin hadn't saved our collective butt in a few games last year, we'd have had a much better draft pick. He's much better than KT, right now, and better than Mikki in some matchups. But someone has to play, so it may as well be the kids. They learn, and they're fun to watch.
Justin's played 21 minutes this season, KT's played over 250. Where's the sense in that?
I'm not blaming those who want the team to win games for the state of the team; as you say, it doesn't change the outcome. But it doesn't have to change the outcome to bother people. I wouldn't like it if there were posters wishing for our players to get injured, either. Sure, wishing wouldn't make them get injured, so it's perfectly harmless, right? But it would still bother people, just as the opinions of the "rebuild" faction annoy the "win now" faction, and vice versa. The discussion refuses to die, even though neither side can change the end result.
Each of us are, in our own way.
I don't really know what to say to the above. This team's future already looks bleak, and you're telling me that what it takes to fix it will never happen? I'm supposed to just give up on the franchise now?
What needs to be done has been covered many, many times. It may not happen, but the hope that it might keeps me going. Without that, there'd be nothing.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
You have to take into account the extensions we will have to give, and the one we have already given out to Martin as well. Also drafting a player higher up in the draft comes with a larger salary even though it would be rather small by NBA comparisons it could factor in greatly when the time comes. Our cap space and ability to sign an impact player on the free agent market could come down to that last few million. Not to mention that for those two years guys like Douby, Justin, Hawes, Martin, Garcia, our pick next year, and maybe even John Salmons will have a chance to define exactly who and what they are out on the court creating the optimum situation for a free agent to come into. That is just one of the reasons of why it would make sense to "rebuild". Why waste two entire years of development and discovery for guys that you realistically have no plans on keeping?
You see the part that gets to me the most, and maybe why I haven't felt all that excited this year, I rarely even post on this board anymore, is because I don't want to get behind guys, and a team full of players that might not even be here past the deadline. Also knowing I would rather see the guys behind them get a chance because it's at least a different direction if nothing else.
It's been long enough! They had their chance. Time for an overhaul. Like I said earlier we haven't even yet seen what is going to happen when Bibby/Martin come back. That is going to have a major effect, and I think in a negative way, to the individual impact and accomplishments of guys like Garcia, Douby, Beno, and Salmons. There will be even more minute crunching going on than now.
Has anyone even thought about the luxury tax? From what I remember seeing we may very well be over it even if Ron opts out and leaves with us holding the bag. If we add salary in rookie deals this offseason and don't trade anyone else we will definitely be over.
I just hope they don't decide to cut costs by selling picks and waiving some of the young guys. Just a paranoid thought but a scary one!
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Something that also needs to be brought up is that Petrie has done a pretty decent job of stockpiling some pretty promising young talent. It's not like by trading Bibby or Artest we somehow revert to the dark ages here. A lot of the "youth" rebuilding has already been done.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
SacTownKid, more than likely next year we will pay some luxury tax (a million or so) as far as I can calculate with all the unknowns. I understand that the cap rules are more complicated than the way I wrote but I think I am representing facts fairly close to the reality of things. How far we are under the cap in the summer of 2010 isn't a simple thing to calculate because even those players we have no intention to resign count against the cap.
Nobody's "solution" is as simple as can be written in anything smaller than a short novel.
Nobody's "solution" is as simple as can be written in anything smaller than a short novel.
Last edited:
Look at the Skinner/Potapenko-Moniya deal. We unloaded a useful player with a somewhat larger contract, for two utterly worthless ones with expiring contracts. That's how it's usually done. You can also dump salary on a team that's below cap, like Petrie did when he gave Utah Keon Clark and two second round draft picks in return for one second round draft pick. So there's 3 ways, all of which are familiar ground to our GM. Hope that helps.
Can't say that I'm very worried about cap space, though. The FA market has been dead for several years, and there's no sign that it's coming back. Cap space is only good for re-signing promising rookies now. If we don't get some rookies who are worth $20M contracts, having $20M to spare won't help us.
Similar threads
- Sacramento Kings On SI
- Personnel moves
