PG for our team...

And in my dreams, Cisco fills that bill. He isn't the man. Why isn't he the man?

Well for one thing, he never seems to be heathy for any extended period. For another, I think he's reached whatever potential he had. So he is what he is. And to be honest, thats a Matt Barnes type of player. And I'm not comparing their skill level, but their place in the league. A good player off the bench on a good team. If we were to look around the league, how many teams do you think Cisco could start for? Not many, if any! Thats not a knock on Cisco. He's a nice player, and you can't play in the NBA for an extended period of time if you're no good. Just to play in the NBA your one of the top 400 or 500 players in the country. No small feat. Its been said before that the guy sitting at the end of the bench in the NBA was probably the best player on his highschool team and is some cases the best player on his college team.

So I guess you could argue that Cisco is the best player on this team at the SG position, but that really says more about the team than it does Cisco.
 
Which is why I was such a big fan of Evan Turner. Doesn't need to be him persay, but someone like him. Someone that can take the pressure off Tyreke by bringing up the ball on occasion, but who can also score, handle, and pass the ball. Brandon Roy, would be perfect if he were totally healthy. I also like Vasquez from Maryland. How old is Doug Christie, maybe he can come back for a year. NO! I'm not serious..

+1 on Turner. I wanted him bigtime. But if we can't get a bigger guard, I'd opt for an ultra quick smaller guard who can defend and do all those things we need. In fact, if I had to make a choice, I'd lean to the quicker guard as opposed to the lengthier one.
 
It can't be Kevin Martin or anyone resmebling Kevin Martin. Its not jsut the defense, its the offense. The guy who eventually wins that spot is going to be a 15ppg player tops. His effectiveness is going to be determined by the rest of his game. If you could mash together Kevin's shooting, Head's defense, Beno's passing, and better yet make the guy 6'5"+ we'd be talking. But as with the "dream backcourt mate" thread in the Personnel section, the fact is that such a player may not entirely exist in the league right now, and so you are stuck wiht these imperfect choices.
 
+1 on Turner. I wanted him bigtime. But if we can't get a bigger guard, I'd opt for an ultra quick smaller guard who can defend and do all those things we need. In fact, if I had to make a choice, I'd lean to the quicker guard as opposed to the lengthier one.

Er, you might be able to get him. He's not exactly tearing the league up at this point, and he's an older rookie, meaning you can't as easily throw out the he's just a kid excuse.
 
Hmm...finding an effective PG next to Tyreke could be tricky. They aren't easy to come by, the good ones so if Petrie doesn't get a decent one in a trade this year, maybe in this upcoming draft there will be one to pick from.
 
Er, you might be able to get him. He's not exactly tearing the league up at this point, and he's an older rookie, meaning you can't as easily throw out the he's just a kid excuse.

Good. If he's going through rookieitis and his coach is impatient, let's make a deal on the cheap right now...
 
What is everyone's thought on Garcia pairing in the backcourt with Evans. I've always thought Garcia was somewhat of a Christie Light. Better shooter not as good of an athlete or defender but still pretty good in both areas. Very good ball handler who can catch and shoot. Also having Garcia on the floor might help other teams from hiding their PG's on Luther Head. At least we can start taking advantage of the mismatches that Evans creates.
 
Well you have to take into account Millers defense is alot better than Beno. The only reason i don't want Beno in right now is because we can't afford the points scored against him. That mix worked last year than what they had before.. so you can say it worked.. and if Roy gets better they will continue to progress

I'll agree with you that Miller improves their defense, but watching that team the past year it's pretty obvious that he hurts them offensively. Even when Roy was healthy, Miller is ball-dominant, and that takes the ball out of Roy's hands. Not to mention the fact that Aldridge's growth has been stunted by the fact that he doesn't get the ball as often anymore. I think the Blazers and Nate McMillan would much rather have an off the ball player for his offense, assuming Roy is 100%, which he hasn't been in two years.
 
Was our backcourt pretty great last year?:

09-10 Portland:
BRoy 37.2min 21.5pts (.473 .330. .780) 4.4reb 4.7ast 0.9stl 0.2blk 2.0TO
Miller 30.5min 14.0pts (.445 .200 .821) 3.2reb 5.4ast 1.1stl 0.1blk 2.1TO

09-10 Sacramento:
Reke 37.2min 20.1pts (.458 .255 .748) 5.3reb 5.8ast 1.5stl 0.4blk 3.0TO
Udrih 31.4min 12.9pts (.493 .377 .837) 2.8reb 4.7ast 1.1stl 0.1blk 1.7TO

And if it was, why would we need a new PG with Beno right here? Fact is that Portland strugled with the same odd mix we had last year,
Excellent analysis in this thread, Brick.
:thumbsup:
 
The problem with this scenario is not OJ Mayo. The problem with this scenario is that imagining that OJ Mayo might be available is a far cry from OJ Mayo actually being available. I bet a lot of fans around the country are dreaming about trading for Tyreke, too. He's young, he's already had success in the league, he's got a heck of a lot of potential, his contract is reasonable for a couple of years...of COURSE they'll trade him to us!

That's not the way it works. The way it works is that the Grizzlies hold on to OJ Mayo until his contract is up, and if they haven't worked out an extension by then, they make a qualifying offer while trying to negotiate a new contract, and failing that they match any offer sheet he signs. (At least, that's the way it works under the current CBA.) OJ Mayo isn't leaving Memphis unless he whines his way out, and he isn't going to whine his way out because he wants to come to Sacramento.

There wasn't much whining from Mayo last season before he was offered up alongside their brand new #2 overall draft pick to the Warriors for the grand total of Monta Ellis. Comparing Mayo's situation in Memphis to people's desire to trade for Tyreke is completely off. For one, Tyreke is by far the #1 priority on this team in terms of pecking order. OJ Mayo has turned out this season to be the #4 option on his team at best, behind Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, Mike Conley, and possibly Marc Gasol. Meanwhile, he's lost his starting job to the rookie Xavier Henry, whom ownership barely seemed to want the way they were lowballing him all through the summer and late into preseason.

It's after all this brewed that the rumors of Mayo being on the block surfaced. Are they absolutely true? No way am I saying that. But the possibility has opened, just like when some of us went crazy over the rumors of us putting Jason Thompson on the block after he was planted onto the bench for a while. So I was throwing the possibility out there. It's not as ridiculous as you make it seem. He's not untouchable by any means.

You might come back and say those reports were refuted by Marc Stein, but we've been so quick to throw out his credibility before when it comes to rumors about the Kings that he leaks -- shouldn't it go both ways?
 
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What is everyone's thought on Garcia pairing in the backcourt with Evans. I've always thought Garcia was somewhat of a Christie Light. Better shooter not as good of an athlete or defender but still pretty good in both areas. Very good ball handler who can catch and shoot. Also having Garcia on the floor might help other teams from hiding their PG's on Luther Head. At least we can start taking advantage of the mismatches that Evans creates.

I don't think this would work in whatever offensive scheme PW is running. Garcia's problem is that he is an ok but not great dribbler. If Garcia is to alternate with Tyreke to bring the ball up court and initiate the offense, ie used in a similar role as Head and Beno, the opponent is going to send their little quick PG to harass Garcia and then it'll be another 15 seconds has passed before the Kings get into their offense scenario, provided Garcia doesn't turn it over.

This could work if Tyreke handles the ball 99% of the time and Garcia is used mainly as an off the ball player; but PW doesn't seem to like doing that. He even had KMart bring the ball up at one point. PW seems to like the two combo guards thingy and Garcia isn't a combo guard.
 
OJ Mayo has turned out this season to be the #4 option on his team at best, behind Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, Mike Conley, and possibly Marc Gasol. Meanwhile, he's lost his starting job to the rookie Xavier Henry, whom ownership barely seemed to want the way they were lowballing him all through the summer and late into preseason.

If you look at Henry's minutes and production, it looks like he's a starter in name only and Mayo is kind of playing the Ginobili role.

It's after all this brewed that the rumors of Mayo being on the block surfaced. Are they absolutely true? No way am I saying that. But the possibility has opened, just like when some of us went crazy over the rumors of us putting Jason Thompson on the block after he was planted onto the bench for a while. So I was throwing the possibility out there. It's not as ridiculous as you make it seem. He's not untouchable by any means.

You might come back and say those reports were refuted by Marc Stein, but we've been so quick to throw out his credibility before when it comes to rumors about the Kings that he leaks -- shouldn't it go both ways?

Well, I'm not going off of what Stein said. I didn't even know he'd said it. I just feel that from a common sense point of view Mayo is too valuable of a player to be on the block.
 
I don't think this would work in whatever offensive scheme PW is running. Garcia's problem is that he is an ok but not great dribbler. If Garcia is to alternate with Tyreke to bring the ball up court and initiate the offense, ie used in a similar role as Head and Beno, the opponent is going to send their little quick PG to harass Garcia and then it'll be another 15 seconds has passed before the Kings get into their offense scenario, provided Garcia doesn't turn it over.

This could work if Tyreke handles the ball 99% of the time and Garcia is used mainly as an off the ball player; but PW doesn't seem to like doing that. He even had KMart bring the ball up at one point. PW seems to like the two combo guards thingy and Garcia isn't a combo guard.
It would help only if Reke improve his jumpshot because he is not useful if his skill is only making layups. His playingstyle is so predictable.
 
This team needs much more than PG, but if there is a player that I don`t see here rather than PG is shooting guard! Evans can not play great at SG as he doesn`t have outside shot and he is so predictable to defend no matter how strong he is in penetration. Garcia at SG? maybe, but so far he did not play good ball. And if Evans is playing at SG we should have great outside scorer at least on SF position but there is Donte who is everything else but this. I still think Beno is Ok at PG, as he will improve a little bit on his defense, but as I wrote once here: it is much more than just one man defense! What did PW with changing his first starting lineup? Numbers on offense went drasticly down to 80 and something from 105! Yes we improve on defense, but with 85 pts per game I really don`t see lots of W...maybe Bucks will score less ;-)
 
I have my doubts about Reke playing PG. But if we do pair him up with a larger SG type player, do we really want Reke to be chasing the opposing smaller pg? Teams would have a field day running screens.
 
I have my doubts about Reke playing PG. But if we do pair him up with a larger SG type player, do we really want Reke to be chasing the opposing smaller pg? Teams would have a field day running screens.

I don't know if you watched any Kings basketball last season, but that dynamic goes both ways. There aren't a lot of PGs that would outquick a healthy Tyreke too badly (guys like Devin Harris and Collison are out there though), but Tyreke usually had his own field day on offense just bowling those quick little guys over, in the post or otherwise. I think it's hugely important that we keep him at the 1 and find a like-sized SG to pair with him to force that advantage. That will be his quickest road to greatness. And if he ever learns to run and pass within a sophisticated offense, he could pretty much redefine the position as well.
 
Exactly, he is a ball dominant guard. He needs that rock to be great, how we are sapposed to find and pair a solid point guard who by definition needs the ball to set up team mates is beyond me. Reke is averaging close to 6 assists per game as it stands. Bibby had similar numbers during our glory years and had a solid SG who could handle, shoot, pass and defend
 
Ive been watching every single game ever since Reke's joined us in Sacramento. He has not been abusing pg's consistently, only here and there, and less and less as the season goes on. Matching him up with a smaller, quicker PG, youre basically giving them the mismatch at every pick n roll that involves a SF,PF, or C.
 
Exactly, he is a ball dominant guard. He needs that rock to be great, how we are sapposed to find and pair a solid point guard who by definition needs the ball to set up team mates is beyond me. Reke is averaging close to 6 assists per game as it stands. Bibby had similar numbers during our glory years and had a solid SG who could handle, shoot, pass and defend

He needs that rock to be great? Are you kidding me? His rookie year he was given the ball so he can get his 20-5-5 and compete with the other rookie PG's. Nobody wants to see him for what he really is: a SG with a tenacious driving ability and ability to finish but with a weak jumpshot.
 
Id be more then happy to see that all day every day. We should be building a team around our strengths and tyreke evans is our trump card
 
Ive been watching every single game ever since Reke's joined us in Sacramento. He has not been abusing pg's consistently, only here and there, and less and less as the season goes on. Matching him up with a smaller, quicker PG, youre basically giving them the mismatch at every pick n roll that involves a SF,PF, or C.

Go ahead and name off all of the PGs in the league that Tyreke wouldn't be able to overmatch with his size offensively. Literally, all of them. Go ahead, it won't take you long.

Am I saying he overpowered every single PG he came across last season? No, not by any means. I'm saying that he's absolutely shown the ability to do so when he chooses or when the offense/Westphal dictates it to happen. It took Kobe years before he developed his post-game enough to dominate with. Lebron is one of the freakiest, overpowering athletes this league has seen, and he still doesn't have a good post game in year 7. I'm saying Tyreke showed a tantalizing amount of that ability last season and he didn't do it nearly enough as he should've. Same goes for this season to an even larger extent.

They posted him up a few times tonight on Collison, and he was far more effective than he's been lately. But then they went away from it later on and, lo and behold, they lost the game because he can't drive effectively right now.
 
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He needs that rock to be great? Are you kidding me? His rookie year he was given the ball so he can get his 20-5-5 and compete with the other rookie PG's. Nobody wants to see him for what he really is: a SG with a tenacious driving ability and ability to finish but with a weak jumpshot.

Um, what part of being given the ball and getting 20-5-5 as a rookie zoomed right over your head there. That is a) having the rock; and b) being great as a rookie.

And really, I've had enough revisionist crap on the 20-5-5 thing too. Reke CREATED that entire marketing campaign by averaging those numbers through the first 4 months of the season. And oh darn, the Kings picked up on it and wanted to see him do it, but he already WAS doing it long before anybody had any idea he could do it.

You want a team pimping out their rookie PG last year look down the road to Golden State where Curry was a distant third inthe rankings until they stated playing him 48min a game (sometimes literally) bombarding mailboxes with the raw smallball numbers, and screeching bloody murder. Go talk to the scorekeepers in New Orleans and the interesting 2+ ast a game that Collison averaged at home as compared to away. But don't bother me with this revisionist crap about a front office that suddenly became aware a guy was chasing history and then started marketing it. Given a few years more of twisting, and the story will have gotten tot he point where the Kings decied on 20-5-5 before the season, told Reke about it, and started him just so he could get it. While smashing Kevin's ankle with a bat just to make sure. And of course the irony is that in this incredibly premidated pursuit of those numbers, Tyreke did a better job running the team down the stretch of the season, bumping his assist up over 7 for the last few months, then he had early in the year.
 
Obviously you misread my post. Im talking about Tyreke chasing the opposing pg on DEFENSE. On offense he will have the better mismatch, but thats only from a scoring perspective. On defense, the pg will abuse the pick and switch offs that will be hell for Tyreke and our team, well be giving them the mismatch in every pick and roll that involves a player larger than Tyreke which is the SF,PF,and C position.

Kobe has had a solid game ever since his rookie year.

edit: This post was in response to Dr. Spaceman.
 
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Um, what part of being given the ball and getting 20-5-5 as a rookie zoomed right over your head there. That is a) having the rock; and b) being great as a rookie.

And really, I've had enough revisionist crap on the 20-5-5 thing too. Reke CREATED that entire marketing campaign by averaging those numbers through the first 4 months of the season. And oh darn, the Kings picked up on it and wanted to see him do it, but he already WAS doing it long before anybody had any idea he could do it.

You want a team pimping out their rookie PG last year look down the road to Golden State where Curry was a distant third inthe rankings until they stated playing him 48min a game (sometimes literally) bombarding mailboxes with the raw smallball numbers, and screeching bloody murder. Go talk to the scorekeepers in New Orleans and the interesting 2+ ast a game that Collison averaged at home as compared to away. But don't bother me with this revisionist crap about a front office that suddenly became aware a guy was chasing history and then started marketing it. Given a few years more of twisting, and the story will have gotten tot he point where the Kings decied on 20-5-5 before the season, told Reke about it, and started him just so he could get it. While smashing Kevin's ankle with a bat just to make sure. And of course the irony is that in this incredibly premidated pursuit of those numbers, Tyreke did a better job running the team down the stretch of the season, bumping his assist up over 7 for the last few months, then he had early in the year.

A) Having the rock, at the expense of what? Were we playing like a real team that had a foundation to build upon, or did we look like a team who gave Tyreke the rock and let him do what he wanted with it, surrounding him with role players so he can continue to do whatever he wanted?
B) Theres no denying that Tyreke has something great. His driving ability is basically unmatched and has a knack for finishing at the rim. Thats the ONLY thing great about him. Thats the hard truth. So because he doesnt know how to play off the ball, and you dont want to see him exposed for how he stands as a total player, then we should just give him the ball? That is NOT the way you want to go with Reke if you want him to develop, and you do NOT want to build a team to cater to that role.
 
Obviously you misread my post. Im talking about Tyreke chasing the opposing pg on DEFENSE. On offense he will have the better mismatch, but thats only from a scoring perspective. On defense, the pg will abuse the pick and switch offs that will be hell for Tyreke and our team, well be giving them the mismatch in every pick and roll that involves a player larger than Tyreke which is the SF,PF,and C position.

Kobe has had a solid game ever since his rookie year.

Nope, I understand you fully, but you're seemingly unable to understand that this mismatch that you speak of goes both ways. They can't guard him, and like I said, there really aren't many that he can't guard. There are very few starting PGs in this league who can take the advantage in a matchup against Tyreke. If used effectively, he's got more options on offense than the guy he's guarding.

I hear you on the pick & roll defense. His fundamentals aren't all there yet and he'll fall asleep on D a little too often for a star player. So he's got more development needed in that department. But again, there really aren't many PGs who are so quick that they negate or even win the matchup against Evans. Derrick Rose did it the other day, hence his star status.

And the Kobe line tells me that you and I haven't been watching the same NBA. The post game was not there in year one.
 
Nope, I understand you fully, but you're seemingly unable to understand that this mismatch that you speak of goes both ways. They can't guard him, and like I said, there really aren't many that he can't guard. There are very few starting PGs in this league who can take the advantage in a matchup against Tyreke. If used effectively, he's got more options on offense than the guy he's guarding.

I hear you on the pick & roll defense. His fundamentals aren't all there yet and he'll fall asleep on D a little too often for a star player. So he's got more development needed in that department. But again, there really aren't many PGs who are so quick that they negate or even win the matchup against Evans. Derrick Rose did it the other day, hence his star status.

And the Kobe line tells me that you and I haven't been watching the same NBA. The post game was not there in year one.

I dont think youre comprehending what im saying correctly.

On offense, Tyreke will have the mismatch yes, but what are his options? Ill let you tell me that.
On defense, its not about fundamentals, it is simple SIZE. Smaller pgs will ABUSE the pick, Tyreke will either get flattened, or have to switch off onto a larger player, or our larger would switch off on the smaller pg, or Tyreke will simply try to catch up with the smaller PG but that is practically impossible. There you have 2 situations where you are practically giving them the FREE basket: Tyreke switches off onto larger Player which becomes a mismatch, or our larger player switches off onto the PG which is another mismatch. They have so many options. They can run circles around our defense simply because they have a smaller PG who nobody can run with.

I may have wrongly assumed on the rookie year, but he definiteily had a decent post up game in his matchups against jordan in 97 98.
 
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