Perspective on Tyreke Evans

[Chupacabra]

im sure kidd came out of the womb and tossed the umbllical to the nurse for the easy basket.... he grew up tossing dimes, thats all he knows how to do. thats why he has always been a great pg, there is no mistaking his position. purest of pure pgs....

arenas is more of a pg than he is given credit for... he is the ultimate scoring pg. he likes to jack up shots but he can run an offense. but for the sake of argument i dont think he's ever seen the 2nd round so i dont know how well that helps for your argument. a .500 team that loses in the first round isnt exactly the best situation if you guys are trying to prove that evans was the right pick for this team.

though i would be so happy if we ended up being 41-41 and actually made the playoffs. that would be cool.

I was unaware we were arguing that Evans was the right pick for this team. If thats the topic then Evans was the right pick for this team because he was the best player available with the #4 pick. It isnt any more complicated than that. As any GM who has a clue will tell you if you have a top 5 lottery pick you draft the best player available. When you have a top pick you draft talent. When you have a lower pick you can base your pick on needs.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

arenas is more of a pg than he is given credit for...

Gilbert Arenas averaged 2.2 assists over two years of college (at the best PG university in recent history). I certainly didn't think he was a point guard when he came out. But in the NBA, he's a 5.5 assist guy for his career, and unarguably (in my mind) a PG, even if he's more of a scorer than commonly expected.

Tyreke Evans averaged 3.9 assists in his one year of college. We're not going to win anything the next couple of years anyway. I'm willing to give Evans the "Arenas chance" to become a player capable of handling the point in the NBA. He's already got a leg up on what Arenas had coming in...

 

[fnordius]

Gilbert Arenas averaged 2.2 assists over two years of college (at the best PG university in recent history). I certainly didn't think he was a point guard when he came out. But in the NBA, he's a 5.5 assist guy for his career, and unarguably (in my mind) a PG, even if he's more of a scorer than commonly expected.

Arenas' quantity is tolerable, but his career A/TO ratio (1.65) is about the worst of any alleged PG in the NBA, and worse than many players who don't claim to be PGs. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&sort=astto&league=nba&avg=48 Even Beno's worst season was better than that... the only supposed PG in the NBA whose average is worse is Russell Westbrook (1.59), but Westbrook's career average still = his rookie year, so I expect that to change, and Arenas to resume his rightful place at the very bottom.

The guy's undoubtedly a scoring machine, but I'm not surprised that the team he leads seems to top out at mediocre.

 

[AriesMar27]

Gilbert Arenas averaged 2.2 assists over two years of college (at the best PG university in recent history). I certainly didn't think he was a point guard when he came out. But in the NBA, he's a 5.5 assist guy for his career, and unarguably (in my mind) a PG, even if he's more of a scorer than commonly expected.

Tyreke Evans averaged 3.9 assists in his one year of college. We're not going to win anything the next couple of years anyway. I'm willing to give Evans the "Arenas chance" to become a player capable of handling the point in the NBA. He's already got a leg up on what Arenas had coming in...

and like i said in an earlier post, i forget if its this thread or not but i would be totally cool if evans turns out to be an arenas type of pg. but i just dont see evans as a pg at all. if evans' ceiling as a pg is arenas we got one hell of a steal in the draft. though pgs who play like that havent won anything in nba history they are at least dynamic players who are fun to watch. the wizards have 3 players that average 20+ppg, if evans can put up the offensive numbers without hurting the flow of the offense i will not complain. the wizards ran an offense similar to what we used to play but with better scorers and no defense....

 

[AriesMar27]

Arenas' quantity is tolerable, but his career A/TO ratio (1.65) is about the worst of any alleged PG in the NBA, and worse than many players who don't claim to be PGs. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&sort=astto&league=nba&avg=48 Even Beno's worst season was better than that... the only supposed PG in the NBA whose average is worse is Russell Westbrook (1.59), but Westbrook's career average still = his rookie year, so I expect that to change, and Arenas to resume his rightful place at the very bottom.

The guy's undoubtedly a scoring machine, but I'm not surprised that the team he leads seems to top out at mediocre.

how many of those pgs average 28ppg?

 

[USNAVY15]

I have the solution to TDOS debate over Evans and his position. From now on, there are only Guards, Forwards, and Centers. END. try to tell me Evans wont fit at the G position, and i shall let you win that argument.

 

[fnordius]

how many of those pgs average 28ppg?

None of them. Arenas broke 28 ppg for 2 years (2005-6 and 2006-7), but he dropped to below 20 after that, and his career average is 22.8.

If you want a good balance, try CPaul (22.8 PPG, 11.0 assists/game, 3.73 A/TO ratio).

 

[AriesMar27]

None of them. Arenas broke 28 ppg for 2 years (2005-6 and 2006-7), but he dropped to below 20 after that, and his career average is 22.8.

If you want a good balance, try CPaul (22.8 PPG, 11.0 assists/game, 3.73 A/TO ratio).

that doesnt count since he's only played 15 games in the last 2 seasons... but if you wanna play it like that, last season he only played 2 games where he averaged 13ppg 10 ast and only 0.5 turnovers.... if he's healthy this season arenas will average 25+ppg....

 

[Telemachus]

tell that to the sixers, nuggets and pistons... or ask any gm in the nba why they havent signed iverson to a vet minimum contract yet?

pf and c are interchangeable, so is sg and sf... but pg is a totally different beast. pg's are born not made.... often imitated but never duplicated.

how many teams have started two sg's with a score first mentality? how many have been good teams? i cant think of a team that has except for iversons last 2 teams.... denver with iverson and smith and detroit with iverson and hamilton and you saw how it worked out in detroit, rip didnt want to come off the bench and neither did iverson. the crazy part is that both denver and detroit were better off with billups who is a real pg. sort of.... well he can run an offense and know when to score or pass...

I think the point you are missing that it is how a player plays on the court that matters, not the "label" they are given. Lebron is a SF, but plays PG on offense for Cleveland. Wade and Kobe are SGs, but play PG on offense for their teams. They are basically labelled thier position by who they guard on defense. When looking at Evens, he will primarily be guarding PGs (so that is his position). Now we know that he could just as easily guard SGs as well, and that may be the case down the road (only time will tell). However, what he does on offense will likely stay the same no matter what position he is labeled to play. Whether he is the PG or SG, the offense is going to start with the ball in his hands most of the time. IMO, that makes him the PG (just like Kobe, Wade, and Lebron).

 

[AriesMar27]

lebron plays sf.... kobe plays sg.... they arent pgs, nor are their coaches asking them to play pg. they want the pg's on their respective teams to bring the ball up court and hit their shots when they are open because lebron and kobe demand double and sometimes triple teams from the defenses.

evans cant shoot... they will just dare him to shoot. his ability to get into the paint will be useless until he can make the defense actually guard him. they will treat him the way teams treat rondo, pack the paint and see what happens... he isnt kobe, he isnt lebron... just because a couple future hall of famers and the greatest player of all time can play beyond their given position doesnt mean that everyone can.

people say that he can learn how to shoot or that it will come to him later but that didnt happen for kidd or andre miller, i doubt that rondo will ever become a good shooter. evans might be a bad shooter for the rest of his career and that might hurt his pg play if it depends on him getting to the rim. we will see a lot of zone this season...

 

[gunks]

Arenas's career FG%: 42.7

There's a reason his teams are mediocre. PPG isnt everything. The dude scores 28ppg....On 20 shots. 6 assists....with 3.5 TOs.

If Tyreke turns out like Arenas I will be VERY disappointed.

 

[vikinginferno]

Stop with all the Evans/Arenas comparisons. They are NOTHING alike.

 

[fnordius]

Arenas's career FG%: 42.7

There's a reason his teams are mediocre. PPG isnt everything. The dude scores 28ppg....On 20 shots. 6 assists....with 3.5 TOs.

If Tyreke turns out like Arenas I will be VERY disappointed.

If so, we just play him as if he's the replacement for Bonzi Wells. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[gunks]

Stop with all the Evans/Arenas comparisons. They are NOTHING alike.

There is that too. Haha.

I was kinda just throwin some Arenas hate into the mix since people were bringing that dude up like he's someone you WANT to have on your team

I imagine the only thing that Evans and Arenas will have in common stat wise is their iffy assist/TO ratios. But as Evans hasnt played in one NBA game yet that remains to be seen.

 

[HighTopKicks]

short of us trading martin for lebron or kobe i dont see how this applies to evans playing pg. he would need the greatest player in nba history playing sg next to him in order for him to have an average career like steve kerr. or am i missing something? because jordan was a sg, he could play pg... he could play sf.... but he was a sg, there is no denying that. so what was the point of bringing up jordan and his bulls teams when talking about tyreke playing pg?

maybe i misread something.

It's pretty obvious to me anyways, that you aren't getting what people are saying to you because you continue to want to LABEL players and group them by position based on some standard that you set for yourself.

Orlando ran the offense thru Hedo, so by your standard he must be a PG. But, for some reasoning beyond my understanding, Evans isn't a PG even if he brings up the ball, runs the offense & scores by dribbling by the PG that is defending him.

Oh well, you win, I see no future in discussing this with you.

 

[Prince_XY]

PGs are born.

Or at least grown early. The isntincts are either there, or not. The exceptions are very very rare. Actually am I thinking of like one guy: Billups. Who actually still doesn;t have great creativity, but is a lot better than when he started. But you either have that court vision or you don't. You either have that mentality or you don't. Now if you are a willing pupil you can be taught the basics, be taught the machanics of the pick and roll etc., and indeed from what I saw of Tyreke in summer league it looked like he had been taught the basic mechanics and could handle the PG 101. But you don't learn the instincts. You don't learnt he vision. You are "born" with it. There are a few basketball skills that are that way. Passing/court vision, shot blocking, rebounding (with the provisio that rebounding can sometimes pick up a bit as guys grow into their body). Things you either have the innate ability to perform, or you don't.

Tell me the proven scientific basis of what you're saying and I will make you my Basketball God.

These things are purely well-thought speculations without specific and proven scientific basis with regards to the art of passing in basketball. I would have agreed with the post if the statement just plainly stated that it has to be "grown early".

Exceptional point guards are NOT BORN. If you say they are born, it is as if they are predestined to become one, which I don't believe. Top point guards are MADE by early opportunities to play as one, good training, and having the will/commitment/desire to play as one. Although it seems like an instinct, strictly it is not. It is something you have to learn, desire, and/or work for. There is no anatomical, biological, or psychological evidence that the art of passing is instinctual.

In Evans case, it does not really matter if he can still learn to be a "true" point guard or not, since it might be too late anyway to change his style. What matters more is that the Kings chose the best player available at #4 who's got higher ceiling, has more to contribute to the team, than the over-hyped player Rubio. I'd rather go for over-all talent over the deceptive showmanship/celebrity.

 

[AriesMar27]

pg's are born, just like other stars are born, singers, actors, comedians and most other types of professionals. there is something in them that allows them to do what they do. whitney houston was born with the ability to sing the way she does, she made some bad decisions after the fact but you cant teach that kinda talent. either you have it or you dont..... thats what makes those players special.

you cant just turn someone into a pg, if it were that easy every team would pick athletic 6'7 wing players and teach them how to be pgs.... and there wouldnt be any players under 6'6.

 

[Kingsguy881]

evans cant shoot... they will just dare him to shoot. his ability to get into the paint will be useless until he can make the defense actually guard him. they will treat him the way teams treat rondo, pack the paint and see what happens

Rondo has terrible form. Evans has decent form, he just needs to correct some very simple mechanics on his shot. And it's not like he can't shoot, I'm taking it you didn't watch the video when the Kings worked him out because he was hitting every single 18-20 footer he was putting up. Also, you're judging Rondo's career on what, like 3 seasons? not being able to shoot the rock well really hampered him in the playoffs this past year, didn't it

people say that he can learn how to shoot or that it will come to him later but that didnt happen for kidd or andre miller, i doubt that rondo will ever become a good shooter. evans might be a bad shooter for the rest of his career and that might hurt his pg play if it depends on him getting to the rim. we will see a lot of zone this season...

Jason Kidd is a decent shooter, he just spends a lot of his time on the perimeter chucking up 3's. Andre Miller has no range, he has horrible form, there is no fixing his shot. People also said DWade couldn't shoot, that it would hamper his game. DWade has worked and worked and he is becoming a very decent shooter, but even then he didn't have any problems dropping 50 on a bad jumper, did he?

 

[USNAVY15]

You don't need to turn anyone into a pg. Luckily Evans has been playing point guard since his brothers tied his right hand behind his back, thus allowing him to dribble effectively up and down the court without haste or hassle. Playing that position doesn't bother Evans, And it won't bother me until he starts to have problems bringing it up the court. BTW, it is very possible to turn people into PG's I.E. Allen Iverson, Billups, Nate Robinson, Eric Gordon all are natural SG but their natural progression required a switch to the PG. I feel lucky that Tyreke's natural progression to PG is happening so quickly. Who knows how things are going to work out, Evans might not enjoy playing PG. He might play more effectively off the ball. He might get better match-ups as SG. All I know it that, when a player who is obviously skilled wants to give PG a shot, we pray and let him ride. He is a guard, and either spot is acceptable IE Manu Ginobili, Kobe, Wade, Calderon, Monta Ellis, OJ Mayo, Jason Terry.

 

[sdballer]

You don't need to turn anyone into a pg. Luckily Evans has been playing point guard since his brothers tied his right hand behind his back, thus allowing him to dribble effectively up and down the court without haste or hassle. Playing that position doesn't bother Evans, And it won't bother me until he starts to have problems bringing it up the court. BTW, it is very possible to turn people into PG's I.E. Allen Iverson, Billups, Nate Robinson, Eric Gordon all are natural SG but their natural progression required a switch to the PG. I feel lucky that Tyreke's natural progression to PG is happening so quickly. Who knows how things are going to work out, Evans might not enjoy playing PG. He might play more effectively off the ball. He might get better match-ups as SG. All I know it that, when a player who is obviously skilled wants to give PG a shot, we pray and let him ride. He is a guard, and either spot is acceptable IE Manu Ginobili, Kobe, Wade, Calderon, Monta Ellis, OJ Mayo, Jason Terry.

I wouldn't say Iverson, Robinson and Gordon are pgs and neither would their teams, league experts, etc.

 

[Kingsguy881]

pg's are born, just like other stars are born, singers, actors, comedians and most other types of professionals. there is something in them that allows them to do what they do. whitney houston was born with the ability to sing the way she does, she made some bad decisions after the fact but you cant teach that kinda talent. either you have it or you dont..... thats what makes those players special.

you cant just turn someone into a pg, if it were that easy every team would pick athletic 6'7 wing players and teach them how to be pgs.... and there wouldnt be any players under 6'6.

WRONG! Basketball players are born. Their position is worked out later when their body type is known. Thats why Jason Thompson was a pg until he grew into a pf body.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I wouldn't say Iverson, Robinson and Gordon are pgs and neither would their teams, league experts, etc.

Iverson and Robinson are pg's because to call them a sg and match them up against Kobe, Wade, etc is suicide. We are not talking about what they do on offense, we are talking how they matchup against the other team.

 

[Chupacabra]

The reason basketball players cant simply be born is that in order to get into the NBA you have to practice/play basketball hours upon hours everyday usually for many years. To say a person was born a basketball player is discrediting the huge sacrifice theyve made to become a great basketball player.Basketball skills are taught/learned. The only kind of sports that athletes are born into are the basic ones i.e sprinting, longjumping etc. and even those take a tremendous amount of practice. To say someone is born with special vision to allow him to see open teammates on a basketball court is far fetched. End.

 

[Kingster]

tell that to the sixers, nuggets and pistons... or ask any gm in the nba why they havent signed iverson to a vet minimum contract yet?

pf and c are interchangeable, so is sg and sf... but pg is a totally different beast. pg's are born not made.... often imitated but never duplicated.

how many teams have started two sg's with a score first mentality? how many have been good teams? i cant think of a team that has except for iversons last 2 teams.... denver with iverson and smith and detroit with iverson and hamilton and you saw how it worked out in detroit, rip didnt want to come off the bench and neither did iverson. the crazy part is that both denver and detroit were better off with billups who is a real pg. sort of.... well he can run an offense and know when to score or pass...

I think you came up with a good point to refute your argument. Billups. He's a combo. It took him a few years to get it and he was fairly successful after that. It may take Tyreke some time to get it also. It will be an interesting process. But given Tyreke's talent, it should be a lot of fun to watch. My expectations for Tyreke are pretty moderate for next year. But after about three year's time, they are very high.

 

[AriesMar27]

Iverson and Robinson are pg's because to call them a sg and match them up against Kobe, Wade, etc is suicide. We are not talking about what they do on offense, we are talking how they matchup against the other team.

so their positions are based on their height? damn what does that make magic johnson and charles barkley? based on their height they wouldnt be a pg and pf...

basketball players are born but they are also born into their positions... shaq was never going to be anything but a center.... no matter how hard he tried, he couldnt escape the fact that he was predestined to become one of the greatest centers in the history of the nba. jordan was going to be a sg and no matter how tall magic grew he was going to be a pg. hell magic is proof enough that you cant change your destiny, im sure he was happy when he hit 6'1 and was playing like a traditional pg but then he kept growing... but oddly enough he was still a pg. barkley was going to be a pf, he didnt grow enough to become the ideal size for a nba pf but he still managed to become a great player, that didnt play much defense....

billups is a combo guard the same way that wade is a combo guard. billups is more of a pg and wade is more of a sg.... billups was never going to become a sg.... it just wasnt gonna happen, wade was never going to be a full time pg..... but both are combo guards

 

[Oprostaj]

THere is no true answer to this argument, from what it seems. Players evolve their game as they grow older and their bodies develop. However, once you're late in your HS career/early college you know what you are. You can develop skills but not change who you are at the expense of your game. Just like the comment that Stephen Curry can run point during the draft - idiotic. The guy's game is to score. That's his mentality. Sure he can dribble, handle, he spends a lot of time playing and practicing. But a true PG mentality can't be switched on or off. The ability to read a defense, to react to a play that has not happened yet, finding a teammate cutting... all this stuff is harder to teach later in your years because it goes against how you have been playing your game. I was against the Evans pick because I felt Rubio would fit us better. But I want to give him a chance. I just think he has more of a look of a athletic SG that can run PG if needed for spells of time to switch up the opposing D and so on. If he becomes a poor man's DWayde I'll be happy. But I don't buy the argument that anybody can switched to be a PG. Scratch that, you can, but will they be a good PG or one that brings it up the floor and then doesn't know what to do?

Iverson, Gordon, Arenas... not PGs. THeir body types might be (Arenas not so much, he's bigger) but they love to, are good at, and NEED TO score the ball to be effective. I think all of their heads would explode if they were told not to attack the basket or take open jumpers, and instead look for teammates and try to break down defenses before kicking out. It's the mentality of the player... the great ones can switch it on or off. Rest of them are [Coach Green] who they are [/Coach Green]

 

[Kingsguy881]

The reason basketball players cant simply be born is that in order to get into the NBA you have to practice/play basketball hours upon hours everyday usually for many years. To say a person was born a basketball player is discrediting the huge sacrifice theyve made to become a great basketball player.Basketball skills are taught/learned. The only kind of sports that athletes are born into are the basic ones i.e sprinting, longjumping etc. and even those take a tremendous amount of practice. To say someone is born with special vision to allow him to see open teammates on a basketball court is far fetched. End.

Basketball players ARE born. You don't simply become athletic and gifted because you practice. You become BETTER because you do those things. You hone your craft. Dwight Howards was BORN to play basketball. Kobe was BORN to play basketball. LBJ was BORN to play basketball. Not everyone that is born to play basketball makes it into the NBA, those players are the most physically gifted, usually the hardest working, and generally are the tallest. 5'3' unathletic people cannot learn how to play NBA level basketball because they weren't BORN with the physical gifts to succeed at the game.

Which is why Tyreke's brother was able to put a basketball in his hands and Reke was able to do something spectacular with it. It was innate. You argue that you cannot be born into the NBA. Three letters : D-U-H. But basketball players are born that way, they don't learn to jump 42", they don't learn to be 6'5". Born that way.

 

[Superman]

The reason basketball players cant simply be born is that in order to get into the NBA you have to practice/play basketball hours upon hours everyday usually for many years. To say a person was born a basketball player is discrediting the huge sacrifice theyve made to become a great basketball player.Basketball skills are taught/learned. The only kind of sports that athletes are born into are the basic ones i.e sprinting, longjumping etc. and even those take a tremendous amount of practice. To say someone is born with special vision to allow him to see open teammates on a basketball court is far fetched. End.

Meh; I don't think it's discrediting the work they put in to say that they were born with a special talent. Of course it takes tons of practice to cultivate that talent and become skilled and effective, but sometimes things come easier for one person than it comes for another. I've seen people who are just good at sports, no matter what, from the first time they pick up a basketball or a bat or club or a pair of gloves, and just take to it like a duck to water. Wouldn't call them skilled, but inborn talent helps tremendously.

 

[Kingsguy881]

so their positions are based on their height? damn what does that make magic johnson and charles barkley? based on their height they wouldnt be a pg and pf...

Their positions are based on their ability to guard the opposition, at least when one MUST out a label on it. Magic was able to guard all 5 positions on the floor, offensively he was a pg so that was his designation because he could GUARD pg's with fairly good success.

 

[Oprostaj]

magic had an unrivaled combination of size and court vision. why is he in this conversation. he can't be compared to anybody. he was a freak of nature, and when you put him in a sentence, everybody else will fall short.