Our SF situation and who should start.

[HereWeBoogie]

I want to start out by pointing something out: We have been in dire need of a Small Forward for years. probably since Ron Artest left. Even a couple weeks ago every Kings fan in the world knew that our combo of Mbah a Moute and Salmons was probably the worst SF rotation in the league.
All of a sudden, do the Kings have 2 legitimate starting Small Forwards in Gay and Williams??? what a turn around in just a couple weeks!

which leads me to the question, who is the odd man out? JT, Gay, or Williams? i would say it should be JT, i really don't see Williams being overmatched by too many PF's in the leage. but i could totally see Malone wanting to not be undersized and going with JT over Williams at the 4 (assuming Gay will start at 3).

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

My guess is that Williams starts at 3 and Gay at 4. I'm interested in our most talented lineup being able to work together for as many minutes as possible, regardless of anything that may not be considered "ideal".

Nobody has a perfect lineup that is ideal on both ends of the floor. You play to your strengths and talents and use it with strategy to your advantage

 

[PurpleHaze]

Well established Gay and now coming on Williams both would start on 80%+ of NBA teams as virtually interchangeable 3 or 4. Far less talented but has a role JT would not start on 80%+ of NBA teams as 4 or occasional 5. Guess that answers your question.

 

[GoSACtown]

If it were up to me, the line up would be:

IT
Mac
Gay
Willams
Cuz

 

[Bricklayer]

We're probably going to try the Gay/Williams experiment, but in all likelihood its a loser. Aldridge, Dirk, Love, Pau, Davis, Zach, Lee, Griffin, Favors, etc. are just rubbing their not so little hands in glee at the prospect of finally having another smallball team out West to beast over. Nonetheless I'm guessing that is what PDA is thinking, get synergy with all athletes out there and recereate his own little perfect Denver first round and out experience. Of course PDA would think that. The most physical game he's ever played probably involved a 20 sided die. Out in the non-showboat land of contact sports, though, you want the biggest, ugliest, meanest SOB you can find to stick next to your franchise and take the tough covers and watch his back. Its a job description for guys with bad breath and scars running from their eyebrow down to their chin, not for pretty boys who just want to run and jump and get tears in their eyes watching the Sound of Music. You have DWill at SF and a fullsized PF who plays defense, you are a big team to win physical wars. Ditto possibly with Gay, as was seen during his Memphis years. But pair them both up and you have wuss forwards putting Cousins back into the same position he was in with Patterson starting there, as having to play 1 on 2 against the other team's bangers.

 

[sdballer]

Unless we get starting PG:

IT
MAC
GAY
JT
Cuz

Bench:
Jimmer
MT
Outlaw
Williams
Gray

Deep:
Ray
Acy
Hamady


Keeps size in the starting lineup. Adds a guy that doesn't need the ball as much. Moves a scorer (Williams) who can play the 3 or 4 to the bench. The bench is still going to need more help.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Keep in mind that Miami starts Chris Bosh at Center and Shane Battier at 4. No, James doesn't erase their lack of size at those positions

 

[Mass]

I say we'll start JT and Gay. I think Malone knows our bench is pretty bad right now, and we need someone able to score. If we bring Williams from the bench he can be the scorer off the bench, have more offensive freedome and help the bench when the starters are resting. Then, at the end of the game we will go with Williams and Gay, or whoever is playing better.
JT in the starting lineup makes also sense in order to balance the offense. We have IT, Cuz and Gay as our main offensive weapons, we need someone just focusing on rebounds, defense and dirty work.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I'd go with Williams on the bench for now. That is who I voted for, although I realize that likely isn't the plan at this point. We'll see. I'm certainly willing to try either option.

The one thing I will say about Gay is that he's having a very good rebounding season. JT is still better per36, but I don't think moving Thompson out of the starting lineup will hurt us that much on the glass. Cousins, Gay, and Williams should be able to take care of that part of it. Gay is also our best shotblocker now, and having his length inside next to Cousins might do something for us and our help defense. So, if we do go with Gay and Williams, I think I'd prefer Gay at the 4 most nights and Williams at the 3. I don't know what Malone is thinking there, but I'd rather have Gay closer to the basket defensively, which he will be guarding 4's.

 

[Jkbiker]

For the large PF teams that Brick list above , You start JT and maybe have Derrick/Gay later in the game or if Cuz is in foul trouble then slide JT over to center

If Teams start with smaller PF then sure , play them both right away

You always start Gay

Derrick/JT based on matchups

 

[Uncia03]

I think we will start with Gay/Williams at the forward spots, but I believe that having a starting line-up including JT (or an upgrade to JT who would bring size, length, defense, rebounding, and no need for offensive touches) is the best way to move forward.

Sure you can run both Williams and Gay out there as your two forwards but the problem comes on the defensive end.
You have to make a choice either you:
1.) force Cousins to have to guard a harder player than he might have had to guard if JT was out there along-side him.
2.) have Cousins guard the 'eaiser' big (Jordan/Robin Lopez/KG) and put Williams in a defensive mismatch having to guard players with a lot of height/length on him.
If we had a typical PF with PF size/length/defense you'd see the following match-ups more times than not:
Clippers: Griffin guarded by PF, Jordan guarded by Cousins
Grizzlies: Randolph guarded by PF, Gasol guarded by Cousins
Trailblazers: Aldridge guarded by PF, Lopez guarded by Cousins

These are just a few examples of the choices that you'll have to make if you run both Gay and Williams at the two forward spots. I don't really want to see Cousins having to guard Griffin, Randolph, or Aldridge but if he doesn't that means that one of Williams/Gay will, which puts them at a severe disadvantage.

Playing JT in the starting line-up provides 3 advantages. First it allows us greater flexibility when it comes to defensive assignments, second it allows him to maximize his role as a defender/rebounder as he doesn't need a lot of shots to be effective, and third it puts a scorer back on the bench in Williams/Gay.

I have no idea how it will play out, but for these reasons I do think that continuing to start JT makes the most sense. As has been discussed quite a bit, JT is a great 3rd big, and I would love to play him that way, but we need to find a better starting PF to take his spot before he gets relegated to the bench.

It's an exciting thought to think of IT/Ben/Gay/Williams/Cousins in the starting line-up as that line-up has a ton of speed/quickness/athleticism at all 5 positions, but as exciting is it is, I'm not certain it's a long-term winning strategy especially against winning teams, and even more so against winning teams come play-off time.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Keep in mind that Miami starts Chris Bosh at Center and Shane Battier at 4. No, James doesn't erase their lack of size at those positions

Right, but Cousins and Gay would be bigger than Bosh and Battier.

One step further, Cousins, Gay, and Williams are bigger than Bosh, Battier, and James.

What does that mean? likely, nothing. Just saying.

 

[Gary]

Damn question worded weird in comparison to the title. I voted Gay but that was not supposed to be my vote because per the thread title I thought you were going to ask who should start at SF.


IT
BMAC
GAY
JT
Cousins

But I am sure they'll probably go with Williams over JT. I assume they're shopping JT so they will probably want to start the team they're going to be starting after they trade him.

 

[funkykingston]

Well, I can think of 18,300,000 reasons why Rudy Gay will start. Personally I'd continue to start JT at the four. He gives real size, decent defense and a role player that won't grumble about shots. Perhaps best of all it showcases him if indeed the FO really is trying to deal him. Let Williams get a bunch of minutes backing up both forward spots.

 

[SacTownKid]

Gay and Williams should start. This team probably needs JT off the bench at this point.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Right, but Cousins and Gay would be bigger than Bosh and Battier.

One step further, Cousins, Gay, and Williams are bigger than Bosh, Battier, and James.

What does that mean? likely, nothing. Just saying.

Right. If Battier can function just fine at 4, when surrounded by good players working together in a system, why couldn't Rudy Gay?

 

[KingMilz]

We need someone to take over on the bench hence why I think Rudy would be best a 6th man even though it's highly unlikely, Thornton has not been that guy and Williams functions better within the flow rather than forcing.

 

[Bricklayer]

Right. If Battier can function just fine at 4, when surrounded by good players working together in a system, why couldn't Rudy Gay?

Anyone else mentioning Miami as an excuse here is going to get their avatar straight replaced with a duncecap, for the same reasons that 20 years ago anybody using the Bulls as an excuse to build an unbalanced team sans a PG had to wear one too. If you have LeBron James, you can do a whole bunch of stupid things. And BTW, if you are in the East, you can better get away with it. And MIami STILL is on an eternal quest to fix that problem -- its a flat out problem for them. Their achiiles, their weakness, and they know it. To cite another team's weakness as a goal to emulate, when you are playing in the power conference, and you don't have the greatest player in the world to overcome the weakness...

who wants one?:

 

[pshn80]

Before reading any of these posts let me express my pleasure at having a fine coach like Malone make that decision. I'll be happy with any choice he makes. It's tough because all three should start.

 

[Bricklayer]

We need someone to take over on the bench hence why I think Rudy would be best a 6th man even though it's highly unlikely, Thornton has not been that guy and Williams functions better within the flow rather than forcing.

Rudy Gay is not coming off he bench. He's started in 452 straight games since his rookie year. this thread really should have just been about whether we are going to smallball it with Williams, or stay standard with JT as part of a platoon.

 

[Chubbs]

We start this guy.

 

[PurpleHaze]

We start this guy.

Or make damn sure he's on the floor at end of games.

 

[Sac.1989]

JT is a PF and is more suited to the positions requirements in our system. He wont demand shots and as long as he rebounds and plays hard on defence I feel Williams if better off the bench.

We will start gay. no way does he come off the bench

 

[Gliesian]

Last year JT was our third best player. Despite his occasional bone headed foul, his efficiency is amazing, he plays great D, can hit a mid range jumper and post up. If he could only hit free throws and had some more awareness, he'd make a great companion next to DMC. As has been mentioned repeatedly, Williams, Gay, and now to a lesser extent IT, all want to suck up the shots DMC should be taking. Start JT plz!!!

 

[HereWeBoogie]

We're probably going to try the Gay/Williams experiment, but in all likelihood its a loser. Aldridge, Dirk, Love, Pau, Davis, Zach, Lee, Griffin, Favors, etc. are just rubbing their not so little hands in glee at the prospect of finally having another smallball team out West to beast over.

alot of those players play out on the perimiter though. Blake Griffin can't even post up against Wes Johnson so i have confidence that Gay or Williams could guard him easily, And people like Z-Bo, Lee, Favors aren't much bigger, if at all, than Williams

 

[steelevt]

It's funny that we have been looking for a legit sf all these years and now that we have him...start him at pf

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

alot of those players play out on the perimiter though. Blake Griffin can't even post up against Wes Johnson so i have confidence that Gay or Williams could guard him easily, And people like Z-Bo, Lee, Favors aren't much bigger, if at all, than Williams

I don't know if I have "confidence" that he can guard anybody: during the three-year run where Memphis was actually good while he was there, NTTAWWT was worst among the Grizzlies' starters in Defensive Win Shares, and tied for worst among the starters in Defensive rating (Cite: http://bkref.com/tiny/J5pRC, http://bkref.com/tiny/CCHHH). And it's not like he's ever been known for his defense... I hope to be pleasantly surprised, but you're definitely more optimistic than I am.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

well i did say OR Williams. and i would assume Williams would be guarding PF's not Gay. i was just saying they could guard Blake in the post. cause pretty much anyone can (until refs bail him out when he falls down or flails)

and what is NTTAWWT?

 

[HereWeBoogie]

From Derrick Williams twitter. i guess he knows the starting lineup LOL

 

[rainmaker]

There's another factor here, expanding on the defensive upside of Gay at SF and JT at PF. Obviously it allows a full-sized starting lineup across the frontline and protects Cuz defensively, as well as gives us a better chance at matching up against the PF's of the Western Conf, which make no mistake about it is stacked with PF's.

But going beyond that, Gay is a SF, through and through. JT is a 4/5. Williams however can swing either way, so to have his versatility off the bench would be a luxury. Cuz gets in foul trouble, move JT to the 5, Williams to the 4 and continue with Gay at the 3. Gay gets in foul trouble, straight swap with Williams. JT gets in foul trouble, bring on Williams. At least at that point one hope is JT has prevented the opposing PF from getting in an early rhythm and I don't know how anyone would question what he adds to this team defensively after the job he did on Dirk last night as one example.

Going even further, PDA has said he sees Gray as stepping in and playing center, even allowing Cuz to move to the 4 at times. So we have a backup center in PDA's mind, meaning we don't need JT on the bench as our only other true big backing up Cuz.

And adding onto that, with IT starting we don't have an offensive spark off the bench. Bring JT off the bench we continue without a spark. Here we have Williams who has shown he can score as well as guard multiple positions. His energetic, up and down style fits more as a bench spark as well given our team's needs.

And oh, btw, start IT/MLM/Gay/Williams/Cuz and try to tell me there won't be at least some fighting for shots and 1-2 players having their effectiveness being negated to a certain extent. JT is a role player in the truest sense. He doesn't steal shots from others. Doesn't step on toes.

It makes too much sense to have a depth chart as follows:

Cuz/Gray
JT/Williams/Landry
Gay/Williams

Anything else and I'll immediately start worrying about Denver part deux. Anything else and you're looking too much at exciting, race horse basketball and ignoring the other side of the ball as well as what has proven to win vs not win in this league. As has been stated multiple times, unless you have Lebron, the greatest physical freak of his generation, going small does not work if your priority is building a winner. It's a gimmick. It's one thing to go small at times in games but quite another to plan on going small from the jump. You've got to look past the sexy fast breaks, lobs off the glass and open court dunks and realize that's really only a fraction of this game. It doesn't win and that's been shown time and time again. GS figured that out and invested in Bogut, waiting well over a season for him to heal up and then went after Iggy. And no, when everyone is healthy they don't bench Lee and instead go with the more athletic and up tempo combo of Steph/Klay/Iggy/Barnes/Bogut. No, they stay big and bring Barnes off the bench. Why? Defense wins. Doc is trying to change the culture in LA away from Lob City as well. Why? Defense wins. Even the most well known run & gun teams realize this at a certain point.