And even Bricklayer has some concern and mentioned he has long been concerned with the flashes of selfishness Casspi seems to suffer from - which means this is not sort of a one-game/open practice observation. And strangely, he agreed and said spot on.
People better make-up their minds whether to agree or disagree, or just plainly say I don't agree with you because I don't like you.
People better make-up their minds whether to agree or disagree, or just plainly say I don't agree with you because I don't like you.
I just saw the game and, seriously, calling him selfish is just nitpicking and a very wild exaggeration, he wasn't more "selfish" than the other players and especially not more than Greene, all of his shots were when he was open, either while getting the pass or after a dribble, and in fact he only penetrated and tried to score once the entire game and just finished poorly, but he got to the basket, also, his assist was from a short penetration and a pass.
If you are so sure of his selfishness, please, we have the game's recording here, tell us in what minutes he made selfish plays, so we all can objectively review it.
You are entitled for an opinion, so do I, but i don't know why, it seems like you made your mind(for whatever reason) that Casspi is selfish and nothing will convince you otherwise, no matter what stats or factorial comparison to other players I might give you.
You know the situation when police detectives thinks they already know the solution to the case and unconsciously just match the evidence to fit their theory? i think this is what you are doing now.
If you are so sure of his selfishness, please, we have the game's recording here, tell us in what minutes he made selfish plays, so we all can objectively review it.
You are entitled for an opinion, so do I, but i don't know why, it seems like you made your mind(for whatever reason) that Casspi is selfish and nothing will convince you otherwise, no matter what stats or factorial comparison to other players I might give you.
You know the situation when police detectives thinks they already know the solution to the case and unconsciously just match the evidence to fit their theory? i think this is what you are doing now.
This whole opinion that Omri is selfish is not based on the scrimmage alone friend. Today I was speaking with a friend of mine who supports the Lakers, and he thought that Spencer Hawes was pretty good. Why? Because he only watched the Kings when they played the Lakers, and Hawes somehow played pretty well in those few outings. You or someone else also brought up assist numbers, but that doesn't really reflect how much of a willing passer a player is. While Greene and Omri's assist numbers may be similar, my observation from the whole of last season, VSL and this scrimmage is that Omri tends to pass less once he starts dribbling the ball. IMO Omri's weakness is in his penetrating - he seems to force the issue. That's when it seems like he's selfish because he just drives and throws something up, and I think it's more a result of weak ball handling than it is an unwillingness to pass.
That said, I don't think that Omri is a selfish player or one who intentionally wishes to deprive others of the joy of scoring. He's just a young player who still has much to learn and is still trying out what he can and cannot do on the NBA level. That's fine with me, as long as he doesn't do it too often. Last season he simply tried to do too much once he started his decline, and very understandably so, as he was probably trying to redeem himself. But with experience players will learn that they can contribute in other ways such as rebounding and playing good D when things aren't falling for them on the offensive end. THIS is where Donte and Omri differ. Donte has already learned that it's defense, playing tough and scrappy that will keep him in the game. Just hit that open 3 and play good D and you'll be more than welcome on the team.
That said, I don't think that Omri is a selfish player or one who intentionally wishes to deprive others of the joy of scoring. He's just a young player who still has much to learn and is still trying out what he can and cannot do on the NBA level. That's fine with me, as long as he doesn't do it too often. Last season he simply tried to do too much once he started his decline, and very understandably so, as he was probably trying to redeem himself. But with experience players will learn that they can contribute in other ways such as rebounding and playing good D when things aren't falling for them on the offensive end. THIS is where Donte and Omri differ. Donte has already learned that it's defense, playing tough and scrappy that will keep him in the game. Just hit that open 3 and play good D and you'll be more than welcome on the team.
I'm not blaming you for not reading 4 pages back, but the all debate started because of Kingsguy881's observation of this single game and his comparison to Greene, and like i said, after watching the game, i saw no evidence of Casspi being selfish more than others.
As for VSL, both Casspi and Greene got orders from the staff to be more aggressive with the ball, so it's not really a valid assessment.
All i'm saying is that not only with Casspi, but in general, it's very easy to put a bad label on someone but it's much harder to take it off, so please bring some long term facts to support your theories before you do so, in my past comparisons I could easily label Greene as extremely passive based on this game and much of last season, but i have more sense than that so I avoided it, I'm only asking the same from other people here, don't be too easy on the trigger to judge someone.
As for VSL, both Casspi and Greene got orders from the staff to be more aggressive with the ball, so it's not really a valid assessment.
All i'm saying is that not only with Casspi, but in general, it's very easy to put a bad label on someone but it's much harder to take it off, so please bring some long term facts to support your theories before you do so, in my past comparisons I could easily label Greene as extremely passive based on this game and much of last season, but i have more sense than that so I avoided it, I'm only asking the same from other people here, don't be too easy on the trigger to judge someone.
This is one of the clearest example of why I see Casspi as seemingly a "me-first" kind of player and seems to be oblivious of his teammates as long as he gets his thing. I think what MDM was saying is not a nonsense thing and you don't have to have played the game to actually understand the psychology of players behind the situation. What MDM was saying is in fact a BIG thing.
Who would have thought that in the NBA game players are not aware whether their teammate is on the brink of a triple-double, especially when fans are shouting about it? Tell that to the marines if you think those players are not aware OR maybe it was a case of Casspi showing his self-centered character who usually think of himself only and not mindful of others during games.
I guess the bottom line is that Casspi was seemingly thinking of himself only and not mindful of his teammates and he should have known that Evans needed that rebound to get that triple-double. He could have let Evans get that rebound and get the glory, but he did not. Nice-guy.
Who would have thought that in the NBA game players are not aware whether their teammate is on the brink of a triple-double, especially when fans are shouting about it? Tell that to the marines if you think those players are not aware OR maybe it was a case of Casspi showing his self-centered character who usually think of himself only and not mindful of others during games.
I guess the bottom line is that Casspi was seemingly thinking of himself only and not mindful of his teammates and he should have known that Evans needed that rebound to get that triple-double. He could have let Evans get that rebound and get the glory, but he did not. Nice-guy.
Last edited:
Wow, you really believe that? I'm sorry but thinking he did that on purpose is just nonsense, and again, nitpicking.
Maybe it's hopeless to even start answering you, but bajaden "Have you played the game?" comment is quite right, there are numerous occasions of professional players taking a defensive rebound and immediately dunking the ball in their own basket, it's not because these players are stupid, it's because they practice so much on certain actions and movements that sometimes they just do it automatically without thinking about it, Casspi saw a ball in the air and jumped to get it because that's what he is used to do, maybe when he landed he realized Evans could have got it, but it was already too late, that's it, no conspiracy, no hidden agenda.
Maybe it's hopeless to even start answering you, but bajaden "Have you played the game?" comment is quite right, there are numerous occasions of professional players taking a defensive rebound and immediately dunking the ball in their own basket, it's not because these players are stupid, it's because they practice so much on certain actions and movements that sometimes they just do it automatically without thinking about it, Casspi saw a ball in the air and jumped to get it because that's what he is used to do, maybe when he landed he realized Evans could have got it, but it was already too late, that's it, no conspiracy, no hidden agenda.
True. I don't think anyone is saying that he intentionally grabbed the rebound to prevent Tyreke from getting the triple double. Rather, as a team mate he could (not should) have been more aware of the situation and let Tyreke get the board. I personally don't blame him, there's nothing wrong with grabbing a rebound, but it's a shame that he kinda forgot about Tyreke in a sense. As a fan, you'd wonder how that could happen because the whole arena is supporting Evans getting a triple double, but I suppose as a player you can get caught up in the game. If I remember correctly Tyreke was right there - it wasn't as if he was far away and the rebound was clearly going to Omri.
I don't think that incident should be used to support the whole 'omri is selfish' argument. If anything it falls more under the 'Omri gets too caught up in the game and forgets about everything else, just like when he tries to drive' argument.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but when a player is told to be more aggressive it shouldn't necessarily translate to passing less or trying to do too much. Being aggressive with the ball IMO refers to pushing the ball harder, trying to drive and get closer shots instead of settling for the outside shot, being more active and more intentional in your actions. Not passing the ball on the fast break several times when you've got a team mate running with you who's open .... not exactly being aggressive in my books.
Anyway, Westphal has said that what he wants at the SF is not a primary option but someone who can feed off Tyreke and I suppose DMC. What I liked most about the scrimmage was Omri hitting his 3s from Tyreke's kickout passes. You keep making that shot Omri, and you'll have my vote for starting SF.
I don't think that incident should be used to support the whole 'omri is selfish' argument. If anything it falls more under the 'Omri gets too caught up in the game and forgets about everything else, just like when he tries to drive' argument.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but when a player is told to be more aggressive it shouldn't necessarily translate to passing less or trying to do too much. Being aggressive with the ball IMO refers to pushing the ball harder, trying to drive and get closer shots instead of settling for the outside shot, being more active and more intentional in your actions. Not passing the ball on the fast break several times when you've got a team mate running with you who's open .... not exactly being aggressive in my books.
Anyway, Westphal has said that what he wants at the SF is not a primary option but someone who can feed off Tyreke and I suppose DMC. What I liked most about the scrimmage was Omri hitting his 3s from Tyreke's kickout passes. You keep making that shot Omri, and you'll have my vote for starting SF.
Unfortunately that's what i understand from his/their words, or to be more precise, that Casspi thought about his own stats in the expense of Tyreke's triple double, which obviously is ridiculous..
I agree he could have, what i'm saying(not to you, to whoever thinks he is selfish) that there's a long way between him not remembering or thinking about Tyreke's TD and to being selfish, and I don't understand why this example even brought up(again and again).
To sums it up, i think people are confusing Casspi's will to prove himself with selfishness(which is a strong word to describe a player, by the way), unlike many other players in the world, Casspi isn't in-love with himself and doesn't think he's god, on the contrary, most likely he'll never think he reached his best and will try to improve, so lets just keep things under the right perspective shall we? he's not selfish, maybe over motivated to prove he is a legitimate NBA player, but not selfish.
I agree he could have, what i'm saying(not to you, to whoever thinks he is selfish) that there's a long way between him not remembering or thinking about Tyreke's TD and to being selfish, and I don't understand why this example even brought up(again and again).
To sums it up, i think people are confusing Casspi's will to prove himself with selfishness(which is a strong word to describe a player, by the way), unlike many other players in the world, Casspi isn't in-love with himself and doesn't think he's god, on the contrary, most likely he'll never think he reached his best and will try to improve, so lets just keep things under the right perspective shall we? he's not selfish, maybe over motivated to prove he is a legitimate NBA player, but not selfish.
How I respond to a post has nothing to do with whether I like or dislike someone. And I take offense to your remark. First off, if you've been around long enough, you'd know that Bricky and I have had our disagreements. As to whether I like him or not, thats immaterial. I respect him!!!! I don't always agree with him, but I respect his opinion. I also respect the opinions of most of the people I may or may not agree with.
In this particular discussion, I was refering to a post that commented on Casspi's being selfiish, and using the scrimmage as an example. Bricky said he's had some concerns about Casspi's possible selfishness for some time, but, with emphasis on the but, said he found no evidence of it in the scrimmage. And it was the scrimmage that he was critiquing. Therefore, I agreed with him.
My original discussion was with Kingsguy881. And I certainly don't dislike him, nor have I had any problems with. In general we're of like mind on most things. On this particular point I disagree with him. That doesn't mean I dislike him. There are only a few of the people on this fourm that I've actually met, and have gotten to know on a level where I can say I really like this person or not. Everyone else is nothing more than an image created in my mind by their words. To make my point, there was one person, who shall remain nameless, that attended our Clipper game last year, that I thought was at times, very abrasive on the fourm, but in person was just a great guy.
So your way off base on this one. If you want to attack my point of view, fine. But don't attack my integrity.
In this particular discussion, I was refering to a post that commented on Casspi's being selfiish, and using the scrimmage as an example. Bricky said he's had some concerns about Casspi's possible selfishness for some time, but, with emphasis on the but, said he found no evidence of it in the scrimmage. And it was the scrimmage that he was critiquing. Therefore, I agreed with him.
My original discussion was with Kingsguy881. And I certainly don't dislike him, nor have I had any problems with. In general we're of like mind on most things. On this particular point I disagree with him. That doesn't mean I dislike him. There are only a few of the people on this fourm that I've actually met, and have gotten to know on a level where I can say I really like this person or not. Everyone else is nothing more than an image created in my mind by their words. To make my point, there was one person, who shall remain nameless, that attended our Clipper game last year, that I thought was at times, very abrasive on the fourm, but in person was just a great guy.
So your way off base on this one. If you want to attack my point of view, fine. But don't attack my integrity.
The point I should have made instead of reacting poorly to his post, which I apologized for, is that if you've actually played the game, then you know that in the heat of battle your not out there thinking, gee I'd better back off and let Tyreke get the rebound so he can get a triple double. The truth is your simply going after the ball and most of the time you don't even know who your fighting over the ball with. Even in the scrimmage there was a moment where Thompson and Cousins were both battling for the same ball. It happens all the time, many times resulting in losing the ball to the other team. I just don't think its fair to lay the label of selfish on Casspi because he happened to grab a rebound, that I'm sure he would have gladly given up to Tyreke had he known he was there. I clearly remember Casspi talking to Tyreke going down the floor after getting the rebound, and probably saying, My BAD!
As someone else stated. Its easy to put labels on a player, but its a lot harder to take them off. By the way, your talking to an ex-marine.
As someone else stated. Its easy to put labels on a player, but its a lot harder to take them off. By the way, your talking to an ex-marine.
Last edited:
Well, as I stated, I heard the directions coming from Ellie's own mouth to both Casspi and Greene. And to the best of my knowledge both were trying to implement what they were being told to do. Now how well they accomplished that is certainly up for debate. But I have a hard time being critical of a player for trying to do as he's told. As I said, I don't think pasing the ball is Casspi's strong suit, and he certainly needs to work on that part of his game, but I think thats a long way from being selfish. But thats just my opinion. Plus, I don't like negative labels. Especially on a player just starting his second year, and thats had a lot more pressure on him than the average rookie would have had.
I tend to think the consensus about Omri being selfish is a little overblown. Something which can't be ignored is playing style vs. intent. Does Omri play a style which might come across as selfish, or is he intentionally looking for his own shot instead of making the right play? I tend to think it's more to do with style of play. When Omri pops out and gets the ball in triple threat, he's either looking to shoot, if open, or take it to the basket, which the coaching staff has asked him to work on. He's a scorer, maybe not entirely effective yet at this level, but a scorer nonetheless. Too imply Omri is selfish, IMO, suggests that Omri knowingly is breaking away from the game plan, and is knowingly passing over others to get his own. That's quite an assumption at this point. I watched the entire scrimmage, and didn't see Omri forcing shots, or taking poor shots. He took a lot of shots, but the shots were there. As for stealing Tyreke's triple double, I'm going to leave that in the past because it's both speculation that he actually intended to do it for selfish reasons, and because is happened 6-8 months ago. I just don't care that much about a rebound from March or April of last season.
Given that I believe the perception Omri is selfish is due more to his style of play, and I find nothing wrong with his style of play, we have to ask ourselves what fits best with the other starters. At this point, Donte fits better, due to his versatility, and ability to contribute without needing to look for his shot. If Omri wants to play the role of scorer, which seems to suit him given he can't contribute many other ways on offense, and isn't the defender Donte is, then an "instant scorer" role off the bench would probably suit him better. Donte's game fits into the roleplayer classification much better than Omri's does. If Omri isn't looking to score, I don't think he knows what to do with himself. Donte seems very comfortable taking a back seat to Reke, Cousins, and Landry. Also, if Donte isn't shooting well it doesn't seem to mess with is head as much as it does with Omri. Not hitting shots mentally can take Omri right out of the game.
Given that I believe the perception Omri is selfish is due more to his style of play, and I find nothing wrong with his style of play, we have to ask ourselves what fits best with the other starters. At this point, Donte fits better, due to his versatility, and ability to contribute without needing to look for his shot. If Omri wants to play the role of scorer, which seems to suit him given he can't contribute many other ways on offense, and isn't the defender Donte is, then an "instant scorer" role off the bench would probably suit him better. Donte's game fits into the roleplayer classification much better than Omri's does. If Omri isn't looking to score, I don't think he knows what to do with himself. Donte seems very comfortable taking a back seat to Reke, Cousins, and Landry. Also, if Donte isn't shooting well it doesn't seem to mess with is head as much as it does with Omri. Not hitting shots mentally can take Omri right out of the game.
Last edited:
K
Just to reiterate, I never said Omri is selfish. I said he never met a shot he didn't like and that I would take Donte based on his unselfishness. I said that Omri would (to me anyway) be best suited as a volume scorer off the bench because that seems to be his major area of focus when he is on the court.
Maybe my comment was taken out of context being that I called Donte unselfish so people jumped to the conclusion that I was intimating that Omri in fact IS selfish. That is not the case. I'm not calling Omri selfish. I'm only stating that when he gets the ball he is focused on scoring. Not a bad thing if he has a defined role (off the bench volume scorer and not a starting SF where he POTENTIALLY can disrupt chemistry by not passing and/or sharing with Tyreke and Cousins who by all rights should have the ball the most as they are much more willing passers) and he accepts that role.
I just remember seeing Cousins get a little frustrated in the VSL when Omri took ill-advised shots and Cousins wanted the ball. I don't want to see that this upcoming season. Not when it looks like the guys are getting along so well and they have great chemistry off the court already. That's my major concern and I think it is a valid one. I'm sure Westphal will be able to keep these guys happy, and the more they are having fun then the better they will perform. The Kings have something here. And I hear everybody talking about the focus is on the team and winning and it not being about them.
And if you reread Omri's interview SHC posted, nowhere is he really mentioning the team, but he does spend a lot of time saying "I" and "me". Just a bit scary for this longtime Kings fan.
Maybe my comment was taken out of context being that I called Donte unselfish so people jumped to the conclusion that I was intimating that Omri in fact IS selfish. That is not the case. I'm not calling Omri selfish. I'm only stating that when he gets the ball he is focused on scoring. Not a bad thing if he has a defined role (off the bench volume scorer and not a starting SF where he POTENTIALLY can disrupt chemistry by not passing and/or sharing with Tyreke and Cousins who by all rights should have the ball the most as they are much more willing passers) and he accepts that role.
I just remember seeing Cousins get a little frustrated in the VSL when Omri took ill-advised shots and Cousins wanted the ball. I don't want to see that this upcoming season. Not when it looks like the guys are getting along so well and they have great chemistry off the court already. That's my major concern and I think it is a valid one. I'm sure Westphal will be able to keep these guys happy, and the more they are having fun then the better they will perform. The Kings have something here. And I hear everybody talking about the focus is on the team and winning and it not being about them.
And if you reread Omri's interview SHC posted, nowhere is he really mentioning the team, but he does spend a lot of time saying "I" and "me". Just a bit scary for this longtime Kings fan.
Last edited by a moderator:
Okay, that's all well and good, but as a basketball player -- since some are so fond of asking if others have ever played the game -- when you drive to the hole and a man comes open, you pass the ball. That's just good basketball. If the coaches tell you to look for your own shot, that doesn't mean you ignore the fundamentals of the game. In the NBA, you cannot be an effective scorer if you refuse to pass the ball to the open man.
I'm not labeling Casspi as a selfish player. I just don't like to see a player drive into a double team and then fail to hit his open teammate. Especially on our team, which saw its glory days when players wouldn't hesitate to make the open pass. Casspi did plenty of that in Summer League, and it annoyed me. I'm not calling him a ball hog. I'm just saying he needs to move the rock.
And this is particularly concerning when it pertains to a player who is being pulled in two different directions like Casspi. On the one hand, he's a secondary part of a young team struggling to find an identity, and on the other hand he's viewed as the best thing since sliced bread by his homeland fans. There was even the article last year about how he's viewed back home, and we discussed here how that view simply doesn't mesh with his role on our team. That's why I said he might need a reality check, because while it's really cool that he can carry the banner for his country, he's not a star player. He's likely not gonna be a star player. He has a role on this team, and that role is best fulfilled when he's functioning as part of a cohesive unit, not when he's gunning for himself.
So yeah, I'm not calling him Allen Iverson or anything. I'm just saying that I want to see him -- and everyone else, for that matter -- hit the open man when he gets doubled on a drive. I also want to see him take his open shots, and go strong to the rim and finish. I don't need him to pass everytime he gets the rock, or everytime he drives. I just don't want to see him looking his teammates off, which he did consistently in Summer League, and which he apparently did in the scrimmage.
I'm not labeling Casspi as a selfish player. I just don't like to see a player drive into a double team and then fail to hit his open teammate. Especially on our team, which saw its glory days when players wouldn't hesitate to make the open pass. Casspi did plenty of that in Summer League, and it annoyed me. I'm not calling him a ball hog. I'm just saying he needs to move the rock.
And this is particularly concerning when it pertains to a player who is being pulled in two different directions like Casspi. On the one hand, he's a secondary part of a young team struggling to find an identity, and on the other hand he's viewed as the best thing since sliced bread by his homeland fans. There was even the article last year about how he's viewed back home, and we discussed here how that view simply doesn't mesh with his role on our team. That's why I said he might need a reality check, because while it's really cool that he can carry the banner for his country, he's not a star player. He's likely not gonna be a star player. He has a role on this team, and that role is best fulfilled when he's functioning as part of a cohesive unit, not when he's gunning for himself.
So yeah, I'm not calling him Allen Iverson or anything. I'm just saying that I want to see him -- and everyone else, for that matter -- hit the open man when he gets doubled on a drive. I also want to see him take his open shots, and go strong to the rim and finish. I don't need him to pass everytime he gets the rock, or everytime he drives. I just don't want to see him looking his teammates off, which he did consistently in Summer League, and which he apparently did in the scrimmage.
I think Rainmakers description of Casspi is fairly accurate. I agree that he's a scorer. And I could argue that his perception is inhanced by the fact that he makes quick decisions when the ball is passed to him and Donte doesn't, which makes it appear that Donte is less selfish with the ball. He who hesitates, sometimes looses his chance to make a play and then has to pass the ball. To be fair, I think Donte improved toward the end of the season, but the bug bit him again for some reason in summer league.
If one goes back to last season, the truth is that neither one dominated the ball. They both averaged about the same amount of shots per minute at about 1 shot every 2.9 minutes. The both played similar minutes per game with Omri averaging about 3 more minutes a game. Omri averaged 8 shots a game and Donte averaged 7 shots a game. They both shot a similar percentage from the floor with Omri having a slight advantage. Oddly enough, Omri averaged more assists than Donte, and both had a similar amount of turnovers.
In truth there's not a lot separating the two players. Omri is more aggressive on offense, and is better rebounder. His defense has improved. Donte has been declared the better defender, which is subjective to a certain degree, but I think that if Donte only had to defend SF's he could be one of the better defenders in the league at that position. I think Donte is still a little behind on the learning curve, but in fairness to him, he's never been asked to just play one position, which I think has hindered his growth.
If all this is about who starts and who doesn't, then I'll gracefully back out, because I honestly don't care. Either one is fine with me. All I've ever stated, is that based on what I saw in summer league, I thought that Casspi had the edge, which is meaningless. It is only summer league after all.
Whomever starts will probably be the one that Westphal thinks will best compliment the other starters. So I'll leave it up to him
Last edited:
I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree that when he drives to the basket he sometimes makes bad decisions. And he needs to improve in that area if he wants to become a good player. I seem to remember Jon Barry doing the same thing, but for different reasons. Jon would drive to the basket with the intent of passing to a teammate. Unfortunately he would leave his feet with no one to pass to. Now that may be more admirable because he was trying to set up a teammate, but the end result was the same. Usually a turnover.
I went back and rewatched the scrimmage and I saw where Casspi drove to the basket twice. Once he had nothing and forced up a shot. The other time he made a nice pass for an assist. The rest of the time he took open shots that he should have taken. I'm not going to go back and relive last season. But if we wanted to be fair, why don't we compare Donte's rookie season to Casspi's. Thats the season where Donte became the black hole from three point land. Donte came out of college with the rep as a player that never saw a shot he didn't like. I think we can safely say that Donte's game has improved considerably.
As far as Casspi being a role player or a star? I've learned to wait before making declarations. Logic tells us that he'll be a role player. Lets face it, the majority of players in the NBA are role players. Some are just higher on the food chain than others. But not all stars start off as stars. Nowitzki didn't look lke much more than a role player his first year in the league. He only shot 20% from 3 pt range that year. Ginobili certainly didn't look like a star his first two years. Especially his first year. One could almost draw comparisons between Ginobili and Casspi in style of play. Pop's said that no player on his team gave him more grey hair than Ginobili. I guess one could also make the analogy that using Ginobili as an example, Casspi should come off the bench.
Anyway, you could be right about Casspi being a role player. The odds are in your favor. But I'd still wait if I were you..
I went back and rewatched the scrimmage and I saw where Casspi drove to the basket twice. Once he had nothing and forced up a shot. The other time he made a nice pass for an assist. The rest of the time he took open shots that he should have taken. I'm not going to go back and relive last season. But if we wanted to be fair, why don't we compare Donte's rookie season to Casspi's. Thats the season where Donte became the black hole from three point land. Donte came out of college with the rep as a player that never saw a shot he didn't like. I think we can safely say that Donte's game has improved considerably.
As far as Casspi being a role player or a star? I've learned to wait before making declarations. Logic tells us that he'll be a role player. Lets face it, the majority of players in the NBA are role players. Some are just higher on the food chain than others. But not all stars start off as stars. Nowitzki didn't look lke much more than a role player his first year in the league. He only shot 20% from 3 pt range that year. Ginobili certainly didn't look like a star his first two years. Especially his first year. One could almost draw comparisons between Ginobili and Casspi in style of play. Pop's said that no player on his team gave him more grey hair than Ginobili. I guess one could also make the analogy that using Ginobili as an example, Casspi should come off the bench.
Anyway, you could be right about Casspi being a role player. The odds are in your favor. But I'd still wait if I were you..
Last edited:
Two good points here.
1. Donte as a rookie... enough said
2. Casspi's ceiling is unknown to everyone in the world. Honestly, the Kings need a role player more than a star, but I don't see any reason Omri can't be a star in this league. It might not be on the Kings, but he seems to have the drive, body, and skills to be a featured player on a team. I can easily see him ending up being a Ray Allen, Peja(peak), Manu, Rashard Lewis, etc. level player.
1. Donte as a rookie... enough said
2. Casspi's ceiling is unknown to everyone in the world. Honestly, the Kings need a role player more than a star, but I don't see any reason Omri can't be a star in this league. It might not be on the Kings, but he seems to have the drive, body, and skills to be a featured player on a team. I can easily see him ending up being a Ray Allen, Peja(peak), Manu, Rashard Lewis, etc. level player.
@bajaden:
1) If Casspi is going to be a star, it's going to have to be on another team, assuming the obvious about Tyreke and Cousins.
2) As for Ginobili, he's a really, really good player, and he plays a crucial role for his team. He has the ball in his hands a whole lot. But he's also a willing passer. He's always done a great job of setting his teammates up, no matter whether he was starting or coming off the bench with more scoring responsibility. He may have driven Pop nuts at times, but it's not because he looks his teammates off. Assuming Tyreke and Cousins reach their potential, we would welcome a Ginobili-type player.
3) I'm willing to run the risk of pegging Casspi as "not a star," even this early in his career. I don't see Dirk potential in Casspi. He could turn into Peja or Rashard Lewis or someone like that, and that's fine, and he'd fit in that role, but Lewis knows how to hit his teammates when he's doubled, and Peja never drove the lane, so this wasn't an issue. Even still, Peja as a vet displayed better court vision than Casspi has so far, so he'll still have to work on that aspect of his game.
4) I didn't see the scrimmage, or the preseason game last night. I don't know whether this is going to continue to be an issue. I do know that he's displayed these traits in the past, and they've been well documented. My original contribution to this topic was that the concern over Casspi's passing had a lot more to do with just the scrimmage. I had the same concern without even seeing the scrimmage. It's a valid concern, and it's something that he'll have to improve on.
5) There's something to be said for a player that can score in bunches, off the bench or not. If Omri is going to be a gunner, I'm sure we could find a role for him and capitalize on that ability. Nothing wrong with getting him his shots if he has that ability. But he'll still need to be able to hit the open man when he's doubled. That's a part of basketball, no matter your status or your role.
1) If Casspi is going to be a star, it's going to have to be on another team, assuming the obvious about Tyreke and Cousins.
2) As for Ginobili, he's a really, really good player, and he plays a crucial role for his team. He has the ball in his hands a whole lot. But he's also a willing passer. He's always done a great job of setting his teammates up, no matter whether he was starting or coming off the bench with more scoring responsibility. He may have driven Pop nuts at times, but it's not because he looks his teammates off. Assuming Tyreke and Cousins reach their potential, we would welcome a Ginobili-type player.
3) I'm willing to run the risk of pegging Casspi as "not a star," even this early in his career. I don't see Dirk potential in Casspi. He could turn into Peja or Rashard Lewis or someone like that, and that's fine, and he'd fit in that role, but Lewis knows how to hit his teammates when he's doubled, and Peja never drove the lane, so this wasn't an issue. Even still, Peja as a vet displayed better court vision than Casspi has so far, so he'll still have to work on that aspect of his game.
4) I didn't see the scrimmage, or the preseason game last night. I don't know whether this is going to continue to be an issue. I do know that he's displayed these traits in the past, and they've been well documented. My original contribution to this topic was that the concern over Casspi's passing had a lot more to do with just the scrimmage. I had the same concern without even seeing the scrimmage. It's a valid concern, and it's something that he'll have to improve on.
5) There's something to be said for a player that can score in bunches, off the bench or not. If Omri is going to be a gunner, I'm sure we could find a role for him and capitalize on that ability. Nothing wrong with getting him his shots if he has that ability. But he'll still need to be able to hit the open man when he's doubled. That's a part of basketball, no matter your status or your role.
Let me be clear. I'm not saying that Casspi is going to be a star. All I'm saying, is that I never say never, after just one year in the league, especially if a player has shown above average potential, which I think Casspi did at times last year. My use of Ginobilli and Dirk was to show they did nothing their first year to make people believe that they could be stars. Quite the contrary. People in Dallas were starting to say that Dirk was a bust after his first year. To say that Ginobilli is a really good player, is to mean he's a really good player now, but he wasn't such a good player his first two years in the league. As a matter of fact he played in a very similar way to Casspi.
But were beating this subject to death, and to be honest, I'm not sure why it really came up. Casspi may suffer from tunnel vision at times, but I think he's still learning how to play in the NBA. Last night he had seven rebounds, shot the ball well, and had 4 assists to go with no turnovers. I didn't see him play, but stat wise he looks just fine to me. From what a friend told me that was at the game, Casspi played pretty good defense as well. Like I said, I wasn't there, nor did I see it on tv. So its all second hand info.
But were beating this subject to death, and to be honest, I'm not sure why it really came up. Casspi may suffer from tunnel vision at times, but I think he's still learning how to play in the NBA. Last night he had seven rebounds, shot the ball well, and had 4 assists to go with no turnovers. I didn't see him play, but stat wise he looks just fine to me. From what a friend told me that was at the game, Casspi played pretty good defense as well. Like I said, I wasn't there, nor did I see it on tv. So its all second hand info.
I know you weren't calling him Dirk or Ginobili. I compared him to Ginobili because, while their playing style might bear some resemblance, even when Ginobili first came in, he was a willing passer. If Casspi turns out to be a Ginobili-level player, that would be great, but only so long as he's passing the ball when someone comes open. And there's not too much point in comparing him to Dirk, because Dirk was on a team that needed and allowed him to become the #1 option. Perhaps Casspi has that ability, but it's not the role we need him to play.
Tunnel vision is one thing, and that's something that you would expect to improve. It's also another thing to look to pass too much, as the expense of going strong and finishing. I like Casspi's game. Maybe it's just tunnel vision. I wouldn't be so concerned about it if there weren't indications that he views himself as #1 option material, and thinks that the team should use him in that capacity. If it were 2007, I'd be screaming that we should get him the ball, because that's a good mentality to have when you're on a team with no #1 option. We have a clear #1, and assuming the obvious, we have a #2, and everyone else is going to have to conform to the dynamics that go with that inside-out duo, regardless of what they feel they're capable of.
I welcome Casspi's scoring, as long as it comes within the proper context. If so, it would be beneficial to the team. I just wonder whether he needs an attitude adjustment, and it's not just because of a scrimmage. There's been little hints here and there, and it might be starting to manifest itself on the court. I think it's a substantive concern.
Tunnel vision is one thing, and that's something that you would expect to improve. It's also another thing to look to pass too much, as the expense of going strong and finishing. I like Casspi's game. Maybe it's just tunnel vision. I wouldn't be so concerned about it if there weren't indications that he views himself as #1 option material, and thinks that the team should use him in that capacity. If it were 2007, I'd be screaming that we should get him the ball, because that's a good mentality to have when you're on a team with no #1 option. We have a clear #1, and assuming the obvious, we have a #2, and everyone else is going to have to conform to the dynamics that go with that inside-out duo, regardless of what they feel they're capable of.
I welcome Casspi's scoring, as long as it comes within the proper context. If so, it would be beneficial to the team. I just wonder whether he needs an attitude adjustment, and it's not just because of a scrimmage. There's been little hints here and there, and it might be starting to manifest itself on the court. I think it's a substantive concern.
If Casspi does indeed view himself as the potential number one option on the Kings, then he's delusional. That isn't going to happen. Period! At best he might become the third option on the team, but he has a long way to go before anyone's going to view him in that fashion. As I said, I'm a team player, and I wouldn't care if I only scored 2 pts in a game as long as we won and I felt I contributed to the win is some fashion.
What I would want from either Greene or Casspi is consistency. A coach likes to know just what to expect from his players on any given night. So far neither of them has brought consistency to the table. Landry had a bad game last night, but if he bounces back and continues to play defense, and hits the occasional outside shot, he may well win the starting job. If Greene is truely just overweight, I'm shocked. He had a chance to win the starting position this season, and to just blow it off by being overweight. I really find that hard to believe. I hope its not true..
What I would want from either Greene or Casspi is consistency. A coach likes to know just what to expect from his players on any given night. So far neither of them has brought consistency to the table. Landry had a bad game last night, but if he bounces back and continues to play defense, and hits the occasional outside shot, he may well win the starting job. If Greene is truely just overweight, I'm shocked. He had a chance to win the starting position this season, and to just blow it off by being overweight. I really find that hard to believe. I hope its not true..