One set of views of what could happen drafting #7 this year

CruzDude

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
Bajaden and I dialoged back and forth for several days now about possibilities for the Kings drafting at #7. The following is a summary of the high points we discussed the last couple of days with most of the pertinent stuff from Bajaden:

- We think Vesely (NBA SF) is the wild card for the Kings. Very athletic SF, but he lacks an outside shot. Very young though, so room for a lot of growth. Question is, do the Kings want another project, or do they want someone more ready to come in and play now?

- Kawhi Leonard (also NBA SF) not as big a project, but still, he needs to improve in some areas. But clearly, I think he will be better than either Greene or Casspi long term. Best asset could be his defensive level for NBA.

- On the other hand, if they take Vesely, and he backs up Omri right away, has some known production and if he gets the 3 going....... Then Beno and Thornton becomes the main ball handler to get Tyreke out on the 2 spot.

- SF spot needs to be upgraded. We think that can be done via FA veteran or by trade for higher level SF vet. This could be short term or long term solution depending on who it is. Then Fredette becomes the best player available at at #7. But Kawhi can help right away with defense and rebounding and ball handling. So depends on who is available at #7 and if both Fredette and Leonard,

- If Omri can improve his mid-range and 3 over the summer, I see him for quite awhile. Greene on the other hand I think is where he is now and inconsistent in most things he does. Not the scrapper or rebounder that Omri is for sure. But they still have him. Maybe not worth much in a trade unless he is combined with someone else. But there is no one else they will give up unless for a very top notch starter or bench guy.

- So it comes down to either Fredette or Leonard. If Leonard is gone before they pick at #7, then it comes down to Fredette or Vesely, and we think Fredette wins. He'll put people in the seats, because he's a known commodity, and while he may not fill the positon of need, he'll definitely help the team. And they still have a ton of room under the cap to either trade or sign someone for the SF position.

- Both of us think Fredette is the better choice for the Kings for a PG and he has had the best of Kemba Walker the past 2 workouts when they went head-to-head.

Then there is the Dalembert situation which won't be resolved before a lockout.
 
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Wouldn't it be awesome if Greene and Omri somehow suddenly develop into really good players? Ah, one can only dream ..
 
CruzDude said:
Bajaden and I dialoged back and forth for several days now about possibilities for the Kings drafting at #7. The following is a summary of the high points we discussed the last couple of days with most of the pertinent stuff from Bajaden:

- We think Vesely (NBA SF) is the wild card for the Kings. Very athletic SF, but he lacks an outside shot. Very young though, so room for a lot of growth. Question is, do the Kings want another project, or do they want someone more ready to come in and play now?

- Kawhi Leonard (also NBA SF) not as big a project, but still, he needs to improve in some areas. But clearly, I think he will be better than either Greene or Casspi long term. Best asset could be his defensive level for NBA.

- On the other hand, if they take Vesely, and he backs up Omri right away, has some known production and if he gets the 3 going....... Then Beno and Thornton becomes the main ball handler to get Tyreke out on the 2 spot.

- SF spot needs to be upgraded. We think that can be done via FA veteran or by trade for higher level SF vet. This could be short term or long term solution depending on who it is. Then Fredette becomes the best player available at at #7. But Kawhi can help right away with defense and rebounding and ball handling. So depends on who is available at #7 and if both Fredette and Leonard,


Then there is the Dalembert situation which won't be resolved before a lockout.
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I'm not so sure Leonard will be that much better than Greene or Casspi. I'd rather have Jimmer, who would immediately provide outside shooting. btw you mentioned ballhandling with Leonard. From what I've seen he's not helping ANYONE with ballhandling. Limited skills.

If we going to draft Leonard, we might as well draft Veseley instead. Limited skills like Leonard but bigger, taller, more explosive athlete, and much more potential. Leonard would be the SAFE pick since a lot of experts are projecting him at our pick.
 
Is Vesely really "very young" though? he's the age of a college junior. I don't think he'd be rated as high as he is if he was a college prospect. He can't create off the dribble, he's not a good shooter, he's a poor ball handler, he doesn't block shots, not really much of a rebounder, he can't get in a low enough stance to defend the perimeter, he doesn't have a post game, and he will very likely grow out of the SF position. His game will be activity off the ball and finishing around the basket. He's a project defensively and offensively, and he doesn't have a clear position. If he were 18 or 19, that would be a little different, but he's 21, he doesn't really belong in the equation IMO. I think people just look at his frame and athleticism and like to dream. While those things are very intriguing, he just doesn't have a lot of substance to his game. I think he'll likely be an NBA player, but he belongs more in the 15-20 range IMO. I'd rather take Singleton over him if we're going for a role player wing, because I know Singleton can defend the perimeter.
 
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Vlade4GM said:
Is Vesely really "very young" though? he's the age of a college junior. I don't think he'd be rated as high as he is if he was a college prospect. He can't create off the dribble, he's not a good shooter, he's a poor ball handler, he doesn't block shots, not really much of a rebounder, he can't get in a low enough stance to defend the perimeter, he doesn't have a post game, and he will very likely grow out of the SF position. His game will be activity off the ball and finishing around the basket. He's a project defensively and offensively, and he doesn't have a clear position. If he were 18 or 19, that would be a little different, but he's 21, he doesn't really belong in the equation IMO. I think people just look at his frame and athleticism and like to dream. While those things are very intriguing, he just doesn't have a lot of substance to his game. I think he'll likely be an NBA player, but he belongs more in the 15-20 range IMO. I'd rather take Singleton over him if we're going for a role player wing, because I know Singleton can defend the perimeter.
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You're really not giving Vesely enough credit. I know you're not a fan of him, but seriously, guys do not get playing significant minutes in Europe if they're not skilled. And they are especially not central to their team if they're not skilled. So while his game is not refined yet, he does have a good skill level, and the foundation is there for it to grow significantly. You make a point of comparing him to college juniors and how he'd be rated lower. Well, how about reversing the situation? I can't imagine many college juniors being able to do what he's doing in his league. The competition is far more intense than in college, as is the atmosphere, and obviously it's a professional league so there is a lot less room for error. Euroleague is not about developing young talent - NCAA is.

All of the weaknesses you stated are either exaggerated or pure guesswork - every single one of them. I'm not saying he doesn't have weaknesses or is the finished article but for some reason or other you seem to be biased against him. For what it's worth, Vesely is already a better player than both Greene and Casspi. SO while it might take a while for Vesely to reach his ceiling, he'll still contribute if we were to draft him.

As a side note, I find it funny that some people now consider 21 years old to be old, or old enough to limit potential.
 
I dnt want anyone from the euroleague!!! They dnt play defense!!

Name one player from europe or over the that side that came in the nba and played defense.

Probable a couple black ppl. From france but thats it.. Pick jimmer Or knight
 
Shabazz916 said:
I dnt want anyone from the euroleague!!! They dnt play defense!!

Name one player from europe or over the that side that came in the nba and played defense.

Probable a couple black ppl. From france but thats it.. Pick jimmer Or knight
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Wait. You realize you accused an entire class of players of not playing defense then suggested we should get Jimmer instead, right? Jimmer? The guy who doesn't play defense?
 
Shabazz916 said:
I dnt want anyone from the euroleague!!! They dnt play defense!!

Name one player from europe or over the that side that came in the nba and played defense.

Probable a couple black ppl. From france but thats it.. Pick jimmer Or knight
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Gortat, Fesenko, Biedrins, Pietrus, Batum, Kirilenko, Ginobili, Bogut, Varejao, Nene, Pachulia, Deng, Ilgauskas, Najera, Ibaka, Milicic, Sefolosha... And I'm just going to stop here, because I think no matter what anyone says it will go over your [ignorant] head.

Why would you exclude black players if they're European? Do you exclude black players when talking about American players? Your post makes no sense and stinks of idiotic logic and ignorance.

And then you say you want Jimmer after complaining about defense?

Your post isn't even worthy of a reply.
 
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Dime Dropper said:
Gortat, Fesenko, Biedrins, Pietrus, Batum, Kirilenko, Ginobili, Bogut, Varejao, Nene, Pachulia, Deng, Ilgauskas, Najera, Ibaka, Milicic, Sefolosha... And I'm just going to stop here, because I think no matter what anyone says it will go over your [ignorant] head.

Why would you exclude black players if they're European? Do you exclude black players when talking about American players? Your post makes no sense and stinks of idiotic logic and ignorance.

And then you say you want Jimmer after complaining about defense?

Your post isn't even worthy of a reply.
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LOL, not this again. The bolded are from south america. And Bogut is an Aussie.
 
OK the race thing and the Euroleage stuff stops now. Those views are ignorant and cause nothing but trouble. We have enough going on without sidetracking there....
 
Dime Dropper said:
You're really not giving Vesely enough credit. I know you're not a fan of him, but seriously, guys do not get playing significant minutes in Europe if they're not skilled. And they are especially not central to their team if they're not skilled. So while his game is not refined yet, he does have a good skill level, and the foundation is there for it to grow significantly. You make a point of comparing him to college juniors and how he'd be rated lower. Well, how about reversing the situation? I can't imagine many college juniors being able to do what he's doing in his league. The competition is far more intense than in college, as is the atmosphere, and obviously it's a professional league so there is a lot less room for error. Euroleague is not about developing young talent - NCAA is.

All of the weaknesses you stated are either exaggerated or pure guesswork - every single one of them. I'm not saying he doesn't have weaknesses or is the finished article but for some reason or other you seem to be biased against him. For what it's worth, Vesely is already a better player than both Greene and Casspi. SO while it might take a while for Vesely to reach his ceiling, he'll still contribute if we were to draft him.

As a side note, I find it funny that some people now consider 21 years old to be old, or old enough to limit potential.
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I was only comparing him to a college junior to put his age in a familiar context. I don't think many people would call Kemba Walker "very young" even though he's a month younger than Vesely. You take his exact game and make him a college junior in this draft, and I think you have more people skeptical of his upside.

I think I did give him credit, I said despite the rawness of his offensive game, I think he had a good chance of being an NBA player, and I meant that. I think he'll at least have a role as an energy guy who can move off the ball, finish at basket in transition, move the ball, grab some steals, and perhaps become a decent spot up shooter with work. That's a bench player to me though, since he doesn't really have a defensive position, and there's a reason why you don't see 6'11 guys as SF's in the league for very long (he has a high center of gravity and is going to have a hard time staying in front of the super athletic wings of the NBA), because they grow out of the position. It's a cute novelty, but it hardly ever works for very long and they either become tweener forwards off the bench, or they mature into PF's. Since Vesely is not a good rebounder or a good shot blocker, he'd have a long way to go to ever become a PF, I would not bet on that happening.

Ball handling and an off the dribble game, is very unlikely to develop past a certain stage in their development, and Vesely is pretty far into his development, especially since he started playing professionally so young like a lot of European players. So I don't see him becoming much more than a 1 or 2 dribble drive player.
'
Why would I be biased against him? That claim is starting to become a knee jerk reaction from people when someone doesn't fall in line with draft hype. Why would I have any reason to be against drafting him other than his game? Do you think I have a personal grudge against a guy who lives about 6,000 miles away from me?

The older you get, the more limited your potential becomes. It's not like you hit a certain age and then all of the sudden your potential becomes limited, it's always limited and it becomes more limited the older you get.
 
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I like the idea of drafting a SF in theory, it's the biggest need on the team right now. But of the guys in this draft, only Williams stands out to me as a clear upgrade over Casspi or Greene. I can understand Singleton because he's probably the best defender in the draft so his role is clear and it's understood that his offense would be an after thought anyway. But with everyone else, we're right back in the same boat we were last year hoping one of the young guys pans out. It could take years for Leonard and Vesely to develop an acceptable jumpshot and while Leonard is a pretty good defender, Vesely is just as bad as Casspi right now.

The best possible course of action for us is to trade up for Williams. He fills our biggest need in the lineup, he's a clear upgrade, and he makes one of Casspi or Greene expendable. We can't afford to get no production from our SFs for another year. But Minnesota is going to demand a lot and we don't have much to give them. They don't need a PG obviously and they're also set at PF with Love and SF with Beasley and Johnson. They need a defensive center to play next to Love and a shooting guard who can make shots. It's nearly impossible to work out an acceptable trade with them. I'm squinting to try and make it fit, but this still doesn't quite cut it I think:

Kings trade: Whiteside, Casspi or Greene, #7 pick, and a lottery protected first-round pick
Minnesota trades: #2 and #20 picks in this year's draft

They get two young players and two first round picks for their two first round picks, but one of those players is completely untested and the other doesn't fit a need. Eh, not likely. They might ask for Thompson, but I don't think that's worth it just to move up 5 spots. Not unless we keep the #7 pick as well. So assuming we are picking at #7 it has to be BPA which I think is most likely going to be Tristan Thompson based on my rankings but we didn't even work him out so that's not going to happen. I hate the draft.
 
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I'll throw a comment or two in here:
- we discussed a "lock down" type of 3 that would really help Kings, like a Singleton and maybe like Leonard but one who could put up 10-15 pts and rebound as well (hmmm, that's Omri!?)
- a scoring 3 who shoots the 3 really well and can spot up, Ahhhhh a new Peja! Vesely fits here but needs a year or two to contribute consistently
- Jimmer just may be the best of the rest as to PG at #7 then go get a vet 3 who can defend and shoot 3's
 
There are various "sets" that could happen with drafting seven. Most likely it's going to head into a direction where I'm going to be very displeased with the Kings FO.
 
Glenn said:
South America.
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I understand but the focus is on European league b-ball, Euro-style (Argentina being most Euro-like country in Latin America) and fact Ginobili is of Italian desent. Andres Nocioni, another countryman coming to mind, although Ginobili is the better defender.
 
Glenn said:
Not wishing to anger a mod but there is an undercurrent of this kind of stuff even in evaluating individual players that to be pc we ignore but it is real. People have their stereotypes and they occasionally effect how they interpret a person's skills. There is also a difference in how Americans perceive these things and people living outside our borders. We can be aware of such things without being devisive. The feelings and ideas will be there whether we discuss them or not. I personally think these things can be discussed calmly.
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When a poster comes out and says all Euroleague players (except the black ones) suck, that won't fly here. It is ignorant and demeaning. That conversations stops immediately.
 
Warhawk said:
When a poster comes out and says all Euroleague players (except the black ones) suck, that won't fly here. It is ignorant and demeaning. That conversations stops immediately.
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I understand that it is ignorant as you put it. I don't know why it has to stop conversation. All kinds of ignorance is displayed here yet I have to wade through note after note to get to the good stuff. Is this not a place for the "ignorant" to learn? OK, no more discussion of color. We'll pretend it makes no difference. Personally when I read notes, I like to know what views are presented with all logic intact and which views are based on stereotypes. Somewhere in there I hope I can figure out the truth.
 
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Glenn said:
Not wishing to anger a mod but there is an undercurrent of this kind of stuff even in evaluating individual players that to be pc we ignore but it is real. People have their stereotypes and they occasionally effect how they interpret a person's skills. There is also a difference in how Americans perceive these things and people living outside our borders. We can be aware of such things without being devisive. The feelings and ideas will be there whether we discuss them or not. I personally think these things can be discussed calmly.
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While I agree to a certain extent, that most stereotypes have some truth to them, you can't come out and say no Europeans are capable or have ever been capable of playing defense, except for black ones. Not only is it not close to being true, it;s ignorant and insulting, and I'm someone who thinks the need to be pc all the time has gone completely overboard.
 
Glenn said:
I understand that it is ignorant as you put it. I don't know why it has to stop conversation. All kinds of ignorance is displayed here yet I have to wade through note after note to get to the good stuff. Is this not a place for the "ignorant" to learn?
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Only if you call out the ignorant on their ignorance.

Blanket statements have no validity and their point is only to cause the type of threads that have quickly followed. You could say Euroleague players have a history of not being good defenders, you could say the Argentinian basketball league mimics Euro-style play (although I find that incorrect, as most Argentinian imports have shown to be pretty tough/rough).
 
Spike said:
Only if you call out the ignorant on their ignorance.

Blanket statements have no validity and their point is only to cause the type of threads that have quickly followed. You could say Euroleague players have a history of not being good defenders, you could say the Argentinian basketball league mimics Euro-style play (although I find that incorrect, as most Argentinian imports have shown to be pretty tough/rough).
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You are absolutely correct and I stand corrected. It ends up being simple name calling.
 
Section 101 said:
LOL, not this again. The bolded are from south america. And Bogut is an Aussie.
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I know, and in my original post I'd said I'd give a list of international players, not Europeans (since American fans generally lump all non-Americans into "Euro's"). My bad for leaving out that part when I edited my post. Nonetheless, you're the last poster I'll be taking lessons from, thanks very much.

I'll wait 'til tomorrow to reply to the rest, it's almost 4 AM and I'm very tired.
 
Glenn said:
I understand that it is ignorant as you put it. I don't know why it has to stop conversation. All kinds of ignorance is displayed here yet I have to wade through note after note to get to the good stuff. Is this not a place for the "ignorant" to learn? OK, no more discussion of color. We'll pretend it makes no difference. Personally when I read notes, I like to know what views are presented with all logic intact and which views are based on stereotypes. Somewhere in there I hope I can figure out the truth.
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When last I checked, this was a basketball fourm, and not an equal rights fourm. We have a hard enough time agreeing on basketball, much less getting in racial or political conversations. Which, having participated in fourms dedicated those subjects, I can attest that it can become very ugly. In my opinion, there's no place for it here. Personally, I'm color blind, and I intend to stay that way.

Its one thing to be ignorant of basketball, but quite another to be ignorant of equality.
 
Dime Dropper said:
I know, and in my original post I'd said I'd give a list of international players, not Europeans (since American fans generally lump all non-Americans into "Euro's"). My bad for leaving out that part when I edited my post. Nonetheless, you're the last poster I'll be taking lessons from, thanks very much.

I'll wait 'til tomorrow to reply to the rest, it's almost 4 AM and I'm very tired.
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Thats why I use the term "International". Its a sort of one size fits all term. Everyone usually just dumps all the players into the term, europeans. I think they forget that Russia is in Asia, and Israel is in the middle east, etc. So before we all start quibbling, and trying to show how smart we are, maybe we should just address the spirit of the content.
 
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