Omri frustrated by offence and ball not moving.

#61
The other 4 guys need to know that the coach has their back when they do that. Obviously, that's not the case.
I know you want the coach fired, but you're stretching here. Did you see PW yelling at Tyreke near the end of the last Rocket's game? I think this coach would be thrilled if guys called eachother out *IF* they're not making the same mistakes.

I'm not sure I need a team of pots and kettles going at it. Another reason we could use some skilled veteran leadership.
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
#62
I don't know man. Don't get me wrong seeing his play in summer league/preseason vs now yeah he's passing a bit more but for him to be the one calling out other players for being greedy seems a bit hypocritical to me.
I don't think he called out any particular player. And I believe he used the word we, when talking about the team. In other words he was speaking in general terms without pointing the finger at any one individual. Plus what he said was true. They do need to pass the ball more.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#63
You know thats not a bad point, and it extends beyond Omri. When Tyreke starts breaking off the offense and goes one on one, and starts killing the ball movement, the guys need to start calling him on it. During the game.

If you're wide open and Tyreke doesn't pass, let him know. Whether it's advancing the ball on a fastbreak, guys open off Tyrekes penetration, or simply swinging the ball. Say something! It's not just the coaches who need to hold Tyreke accountable, but the 4 other guys on the court as well, which I rarely see.

That goes for Beno and Landry as well.
I'm just waiting for Cousins to speak his mind with Tyreke.... :D
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#64
The reason I brought it up, is because at the end of games when you really need a good shot to win the game, or even in the last couple of minutes when everything is going south and you need a score to stop the bleeding, one of the easiest ways to get a player open is by running a screen or even a double screen for him. Just watch Kobe at the end of games, or any good team. There aren't many teams that go into a 1 - 4 fromation. Only teams that have players like LeBron etc. do that. The Lakers used to do it, but now do more conventional plays. Unfortunately, Evans is not very good coming off screens and shooting the ball. At least right now. Actually Evans idea of using a screen consists of only creating some space for himself somewhere, and as a result he doesn't even use the screen properly, or he uses it before its properly set up. Not a condemnation, its just more that he has to learn.

Personally I think Beno is the best at using screens, and Cisco comes in second. Problem is they don't run many screens for Cisco. There's only a couple of alternatives to not using screens. Ball movement to break down the defense until you get a spot up shooter open. Or someone that can break down the defense off the dribble. Tryeke is the only plaer on the team that can do that with any consistency. Beno is probably the next best. This is just my opinon as far as Beno is concerned, and I'm not his agent, but when he comes in first in one catagory and second in another, that may not be a good thing, it you don't consider him an NBA caliber starter.

I think what we have here are a lot of players with singularly decent, to in some cases, very good special talents. Except that they don't all fit together very well at times. In some cases, what you gain on one end is nullified by what the player does on the other end. What we don't have are a bunch of players that are very good at both ends of the floor. So your giving up something to gain something in almost every instance. There are exceptions. Some in the present, and some that you cand see for the future. Some almost a sure thing, and some with a lot more hope than sureity attached. I put Evans and Cousins into the almost sure thing catagory. I have little doubt both will be good to great players in the future. Maybe one will even be a so called superstar. I put Greene and Casspi, with Whiteside included into the hope catagory. I put Thompson somewhere in between. He's closer to a finished product in the sense that he does play both ends of the floor, and for the most part is a positive on both ends. He sill has a lot of room for improvement, but even is he doesn't improve that much more and just becomes more consistent, he's a fine addition to the team.

Beno, god bless him, really trys hard on defense. He simply doesn't have the athleticism or skill to pull it off. Offensively, he's been a bright spot for the most part. He's able to do a little bit of everything. But he hurts us at times on the other end of the floor. Dalembert is the exact opposite. Great on the defensive side of the floor, but a liability on the offensive side of the floor. Landry is another player thats not complete. Usually a good offensive player, but a terrible rebounder for a PF, and a defensive libility when matched up against the bigger PF's in the league.

My point is that the Kings have too many one deminsional players on their team. Of the starters only Cousins and Evans, and perhaps Thompson appear to be players capable of excelling on both ends of the floor. Greene has shown flashes, but so far is inconsistent. And Beno is Beno, and he's never going to be a good defender. Put Beno on the floor with four players that are good to decent defenders, and then you can probably compensate for him. Off the bench the only player close to being a complete player, although a limited one talent wise, is Cisco. Maybe down the road with enough playing time, Jeter. I suspose you could throw Jackson in there, but who even knows if he'll be here next year. Casspi, like Greene is inconsistent.

So we need either Greene or Casspi, or both, to develop into more well rounded players, or we need to go out and find some. Either through the draft or trade or freeagency. Both Casspi and Greene need to work on their ballhandling and passing skills. This team needs players that know how to pass the ball. I watched the Jazz play a few nights ago and its amazing to watch a good team play. There were times when the ball never touched the floor. I always said that if I look at the box score and I see a team has over 20 assists and fewer than 12 turnovers, and they out rebounded the other team, 95% of the time, that team won the game. I believe the Kings are around 27th in the league in assists, and at the opposite end on the turnover chart. Thats the main reason their not winning games. If they were to get their assist totals up and the turnover totals down, it wouldn't come down to the 4th quarter. By and large our rebounding is fine. It was down the other night, but that shows the difference when Thompson isn't on the floor with Cousins. The two of them work the boards very well together.

This isn't meant to be a knock on Jackson, but twice in the first quarter, he was blocking out for a rebound, but he was blocking out Cousins. Kind of funny actually..
That's been my mantra for a while now. I'm so done with one-way players. I'm into bi...:D
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#65
I know you want the coach fired, but you're stretching here. Did you see PW yelling at Tyreke near the end of the last Rocket's game? I think this coach would be thrilled if guys called eachother out *IF* they're not making the same mistakes.

I'm not sure I need a team of pots and kettles going at it. Another reason we could use some skilled veteran leadership.
DITTO that! What coach wouldn't want his players to enforce a passing ethic on their team? Of course he'd like his guys to have that "conversation".

When the Kings go on a long road trip, it's going to be extremely interesting. That's when they can't avoid each other for long stretches of time. Could be a time for the combustible fuel to explode. Could be a good thing...
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#66
JT can do it as well on a pick and pop.

That is four to five guys, which is plenty. Head will do it at times. The problem is the passes out are hardly ever on time or in the flow. The lack of movement before the pass gives the shots a sort of stagnation that seems to lower percentages as well. Not only have defenses collapsed in the middle, but the passes that do come out are so late that its obvious enough to a competent defense for them to already be ready to rotate out and get on the shooters. Right now the kick outs are bailout passes when they need to be anticipatory passes, which means the pass has to come knowing the defense is about to collapse instead of waiting beyond the point of collapse.
I think I need to clarify. When your coming off a screen or a pick, your moving in one direction or the other. The point is your generally moving sideways to the basket and you have a split second to get your shot off. There aren't many players on the Kings that shoot the ball well while moving. As I said, Beno is probably the best at it. Cisco used to be terrible at coming off screens, but has gotten better. No one on this current team is as good as Bibby was. Guys like Eddie House make a living at it as well as spotting up. Thompson usually gets his shot off the pick and roll when the guard is the one going to the basket and kicks it back to him in the key. Poiint is, he's not moving but is already set. I hate bring up the name Martin, but he was excellent at coming off screens and shooting on the move. The Kings don't really have anyone that excells at it. They do have some decent spot up shooters. I think the player that could be very good at it is Casspi. He runs the play well, but so far is inconsistent with the shot part.

Back in the day. Peja was excellent at coming of a screen while going to his left. But if they forced him to his right, he wasn't nearly as effective
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#67
I'm just waiting for Cousins to speak his mind with Tyreke.... :D
Oh he will, if he isn't already. One thing I feel pretty confident about with Cousins, even this early in his career, is he wants to win above all else. He would have no problem drawing double and passing out on 10 consecutive possessions if it was the right decision to make, and the team was better for it.
 
#68
The reason I brought it up, is because at the end of games when you really need a good shot to win the game, or even in the last couple of minutes when everything is going south and you need a score to stop the bleeding, one of the easiest ways to get a player open is by running a screen or even a double screen for him. Just watch Kobe at the end of games, or any good team. There aren't many teams that go into a 1 - 4 fromation. Only teams that have players like LeBron etc. do that. The Lakers used to do it, but now do more conventional plays. Unfortunately, Evans is not very good coming off screens and shooting the ball. At least right now. Actually Evans idea of using a screen consists of only creating some space for himself somewhere, and as a result he doesn't even use the screen properly, or he uses it before its properly set up. Not a condemnation, its just more that he has to learn.

Personally I think Beno is the best at using screens, and Cisco comes in second. Problem is they don't run many screens for Cisco. There's only a couple of alternatives to not using screens. Ball movement to break down the defense until you get a spot up shooter open. Or someone that can break down the defense off the dribble. Tryeke is the only plaer on the team that can do that with any consistency. Beno is probably the next best. This is just my opinon as far as Beno is concerned, and I'm not his agent, but when he comes in first in one catagory and second in another, that may not be a good thing, it you don't consider him an NBA caliber starter.

I think what we have here are a lot of players with singularly decent, to in some cases, very good special talents. Except that they don't all fit together very well at times. In some cases, what you gain on one end is nullified by what the player does on the other end. What we don't have are a bunch of players that are very good at both ends of the floor. So your giving up something to gain something in almost every instance. There are exceptions. Some in the present, and some that you cand see for the future. Some almost a sure thing, and some with a lot more hope than sureity attached. I put Evans and Cousins into the almost sure thing catagory. I have little doubt both will be good to great players in the future. Maybe one will even be a so called superstar. I put Greene and Casspi, with Whiteside included into the hope catagory. I put Thompson somewhere in between. He's closer to a finished product in the sense that he does play both ends of the floor, and for the most part is a positive on both ends. He sill has a lot of room for improvement, but even is he doesn't improve that much more and just becomes more consistent, he's a fine addition to the team.

Beno, god bless him, really trys hard on defense. He simply doesn't have the athleticism or skill to pull it off. Offensively, he's been a bright spot for the most part. He's able to do a little bit of everything. But he hurts us at times on the other end of the floor. Dalembert is the exact opposite. Great on the defensive side of the floor, but a liability on the offensive side of the floor. Landry is another player thats not complete. Usually a good offensive player, but a terrible rebounder for a PF, and a defensive libility when matched up against the bigger PF's in the league.

My point is that the Kings have too many one deminsional players on their team. Of the starters only Cousins and Evans, and perhaps Thompson appear to be players capable of excelling on both ends of the floor. Greene has shown flashes, but so far is inconsistent. And Beno is Beno, and he's never going to be a good defender. Put Beno on the floor with four players that are good to decent defenders, and then you can probably compensate for him. Off the bench the only player close to being a complete player, although a limited one talent wise, is Cisco. Maybe down the road with enough playing time, Jeter. I suspose you could throw Jackson in there, but who even knows if he'll be here next year. Casspi, like Greene is inconsistent.

So we need either Greene or Casspi, or both, to develop into more well rounded players, or we need to go out and find some. Either through the draft or trade or freeagency. Both Casspi and Greene need to work on their ballhandling and passing skills. This team needs players that know how to pass the ball. I watched the Jazz play a few nights ago and its amazing to watch a good team play. There were times when the ball never touched the floor. I always said that if I look at the box score and I see a team has over 20 assists and fewer than 12 turnovers, and they out rebounded the other team, 95% of the time, that team won the game. I believe the Kings are around 27th in the league in assists, and at the opposite end on the turnover chart. Thats the main reason their not winning games. If they were to get their assist totals up and the turnover totals down, it wouldn't come down to the 4th quarter. By and large our rebounding is fine. It was down the other night, but that shows the difference when Thompson isn't on the floor with Cousins. The two of them work the boards very well together.

This isn't meant to be a knock on Jackson, but twice in the first quarter, he was blocking out for a rebound, but he was blocking out Cousins. Kind of funny actually..
I don't mean to take up all this space with this quote and post but bajaden's analysis here is so right on at least from my perspective. You've covered and described it so well. Thank you.
 
#70
I know you want the coach fired, but you're stretching here. Did you see PW yelling at Tyreke near the end of the last Rocket's game? I think this coach would be thrilled if guys called eachother out *IF* they're not making the same mistakes.

I'm not sure I need a team of pots and kettles going at it. Another reason we could use some skilled veteran leadership.
Yes, he would be happy if players called out Tyreke, because he doesn't have the balls to do it himselfs. But when it comes to backing them up and actually telling Tyreke that they were right to call him out, he will most likely fold. Westphal just put himself in an incredibly weak position when it comes to handling Tyreke, which is hurting both him and Tyreke, because as much fun as it is to be allowed to do pretty much anything you want, a 20-21 year old player needs coaching. Even Jordan did.

Remember the Hawes incident last year? Tyreke said exactly the same things that Hawes did. Remember who was the only one to take the heat?
 
#71
Yes, he would be happy if players called out Tyreke, because he doesn't have the balls to do it himselfs. But when it comes to backing them up and actually telling Tyreke that they were right to call him out, he will most likely fold. Westphal just put himself in an incredibly weak position when it comes to handling Tyreke, which is hurting both him and Tyreke, because as much fun as it is to be allowed to do pretty much anything you want, a 20-21 year old player needs coaching. Even Jordan did.

Remember the Hawes incident last year? Tyreke said exactly the same things that Hawes did. Remember who was the only one to take the heat?
Alright dude, I really respect a lot of your opinions but honestly you're getting a bit nutty and your opinion is not backed up by anything substantial at all. Obviously Tyreke is given preferential treatment, but to go as far as to say PW doesn't have the balls to call Tyreke out etc ... now you're just sounding stupid.
 
#73
Alright dude, I really respect a lot of your opinions but honestly you're getting a bit nutty and your opinion is not backed up by anything substantial at all. Obviously Tyreke is given preferential treatment, but to go as far as to say PW doesn't have the balls to call Tyreke out etc ... now you're just sounding stupid.
Well, then I ask you to back up your statement. When has PW ever called out Tyreke for making dumb mistakes that other players get yanked for? Or not even that, when did PW take Reke out of the game for substantial minutes or in crunchtime when he wasn't playing well?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#75
Well, then I ask you to back up your statement. When has PW ever called out Tyreke for making dumb mistakes that other players get yanked for? Or not even that, when did PW take Reke out of the game for substantial minutes or in crunchtime when he wasn't playing well?
When has anyone been "called out"?

When has Phil Jackson taken Kobe out in crunchtime when he was wasn't playing well? And yeah, Reke is not Kobe. But neither is Westphal Phil Jackson. You alienate your best player you are pretty much toast. And especially when you have a player this young who you are planning on counting on for a lot of years into the future in those situations, you play them and let 'em learn barring some high quality opions, which we don't have. Our Reke options have been journeymen and scrubs. Not aproven experienced winning vet amongst them.
 
#77
Alright dude, I really respect a lot of your opinions but honestly you're getting a bit nutty and your opinion is not backed up by anything substantial at all. Obviously Tyreke is given preferential treatment, but to go as far as to say PW doesn't have the balls to call Tyreke out etc ... now you're just sounding stupid.
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?39029-Landry-Thompson-rip-people-for-not-knowing-plays-or-wanting-to-know-plays-uh-oh!

First it was Landry and Thompson ranting about "players don't want to know the plays so that they can just do their own thing", now it's Omri, there's no reason 3 players will complain about such things in the media if they feel the coach is doing what ever he can to solve the situation.
Personally I like Westphal, and I hate to see him get fired, but at the same time I really don't see him doing some constructive coaching, anyone here can point out a good offensive play this team performs well consistently? except for the Tyreke isolation..
 
#78
When has anyone been "called out"?

When has Phil Jackson taken Kobe out in crunchtime when he was wasn't playing well? And yeah, Reke is not Kobe. But neither is Westphal Phil Jackson. You alienate your best player you are pretty much toast. And especially when you have a player this young who you are planning on counting on for a lot of years into the future in those situations, you play them and let 'em learn barring some high quality opions, which we don't have. Our Reke options have been journeymen and scrubs. Not aproven experienced winning vet amongst them.
Regardless of the talent gap between Kobe and Reke, Kobe sat on the bench A LOT during his first two years in the league, and to an extent, that's what made him the player he is today. He had to earn the franchise player status. It wasn't just handed to him right out of the draft. Now, granted, we don't have the talent that the Lakers had when Kobe was drafted, so we never had the luxury of sitting him on the bench for long stretches, but there's a long way between not playing a guy at all and completely defering to him under any and all circumstances. It might sound like I'm hating on Reke, but it's actually the opposite. I'm concerned that by taking this route we are getting in the way of him actually realizing his potential. He will eventually put up his numbers consistently, but if he doesn't build the character of a team player and respected leader, he will do very little to help the Kings become a winning franchise.
 
#79
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?39029-Landry-Thompson-rip-people-for-not-knowing-plays-or-wanting-to-know-plays-uh-oh!

First it was Landry and Thompson ranting about "players don't want to know the plays so that they can just do their own thing", now it's Omri, there's no reason 3 players will complain about such things in the media if they feel the coach is doing what ever he can to solve the situation.
Personally I like Westphal, and I hate to see him get fired, but at the same time I really don't see him doing some constructive coaching, anyone here can point out a good offensive play this team performs well consistently? except for the Tyreke isolation..
err ... Tyreke has also said the same thing about guys not knowing plays. So you have 4 guys ranting about people not knowing plays, and fingers are pointed everywhere. How does that equate to Westphal not having the balls to call out Tyreke, or even that Tyreke has the freedom to do whatever he wants for that matter? I don't disagree that much on the latter though, based on my own observation in gaems. Read my previous post, I didn't deny that Tyreke, being our heralded franchise player does not get preferential treatment. I will agree that Tyreke is almost never yanked for a bad decision.

I was questioning the validity of this: "Yes, he would be happy if players called out Tyreke, because he doesn't have the balls to do it himselfs. But when it comes to backing them up and actually telling Tyreke that they were right to call him out, he will most likely fold." How do you come to this conclusion? Is Asaf in the locker room and at every practice? Or does it mean that just because Omri doesn't go to the media and say "ISRAEL I AM NOW THE NEW FACE OF THE FRANCHISE. TYREKE GOT CALLED OUT BY WESTPHAL FOR PLAYING STUPID" Westphal isn't calling Tyreke out? How do you know this? And Asaf, you made the claim. The onus is on you to back it and prove it.

If you initially claim that Pooh Jeter is better than Lebron, and I reply "no, Jeter is good but calling him better than Lebron may be pushing it", is it my job to prove that Jeter isn't better than Lebron or is it yours to prove that he is?
 
#80
err ... Tyreke has also said the same thing about guys not knowing plays. So you have 4 guys ranting about people not knowing plays, and fingers are pointed everywhere. How does that equate to Westphal not having the balls to call out Tyreke, or even that Tyreke has the freedom to do whatever he wants for that matter? I don't disagree that much on the latter though, based on my own observation in gaems. Read my previous post, I didn't deny that Tyreke, being our heralded franchise player does not get preferential treatment. I will agree that Tyreke is almost never yanked for a bad decision.

I was questioning the validity of this: "Yes, he would be happy if players called out Tyreke, because he doesn't have the balls to do it himselfs. But when it comes to backing them up and actually telling Tyreke that they were right to call him out, he will most likely fold." How do you come to this conclusion? Is Asaf in the locker room and at every practice? Or does it mean that just because Omri doesn't go to the media and say "ISRAEL I AM NOW THE NEW FACE OF THE FRANCHISE. TYREKE GOT CALLED OUT BY WESTPHAL FOR PLAYING STUPID" Westphal isn't calling Tyreke out? How do you know this? And Asaf, you made the claim. The onus is on you to back it and prove it.

If you initially claim that Pooh Jeter is better than Lebron, and I reply "no, Jeter is good but calling him better than Lebron may be pushing it", is it my job to prove that Jeter isn't better than Lebron or is it yours to prove that he is?
Naturally, I don't have candid videos from the locker room, but let's break the situation down:

Tyreke, since he was handed the franchise, walks up the ball on every posession and never tries to vary the tempo of the game, for the most part he dribbles the clock down and ends up putting himself and his teammates in tough shotclock situations, he passes to open teammates mainly as a last option, and refuses to pass to the open man on a break.

Now, I was not in the locker room to see whether PW called him out on those things, but if he did, Tyreke did not get the message. And what does a coach do when a player doesn't get the message and makes the same mistakes over and over? Well, most coaches send them to the bench. If Westphal calls Tyreke out and then does nothing about it when Tyreke doesn't make the slightest attempt to change these things, then that's much worse than not calling him out. So I'm actually giving Westphal the benefit of the doubt when I say he is not calling him out.
 
#82
I don't know why you people are getting worked up about Omri being "out of line". It's the truth. It's so true we saw a prime example of exactly what he was talking about last night.

"We don't move the ball," forward Omri Casspi said. "There's guys in the corner – Císco (Francisco García) was hot (Sunday) night, for example, and he didn't even get a shot in the fourth quarter. What do you want him to do? He didn't get the ball.
Carl and Beno were the ONLY Kings who had anything going last night. Did they get the ball in the late 4th, and in overtime? No.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#83
I don't know why you people are getting worked up about Omri being "out of line". It's the truth. It's so true we saw a prime example of exactly what he was talking about last night.



Carl and Beno were the ONLY Kings who had anything going last night. Did they get the ball in the late 4th, and in overtime? No.
One selfish play or two by one player eventually spreads out to the whole team and then they follow suite.