Old ESPN article on Evans..
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Kingsguy881
Guest
It's not a fact just because you say it's a fact. And the "homerism vs. the real world" comment is totally without substance.
Yes, there are two definite sides to the current argument about whether or not Evans will be able to perform adequately at the 1, BUT neither side can claim victory until ... oh, I don't know... maybe they actually play some games?
It's great for this debate to continue, but you can't try to claim victory in August.
I love this debate. I know I will win it in due time but this is great. Keeps the board active in TDOS.
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AriesMar27
Guest
so now you are saying that evans wont draw any fouls until the 4th quarter? if he is so big why would anyone want to foul him? unless its a hard foul meant to deter him from attacking the basket.
the more i think about it the more evans reminds me of john salmons, they hae the exact same type of game. when salmons first came into the league he was projected to be a pg. i remember when he was on the sixers and they would play him at pg and the only time he played well was when iverson wasnt on the court and salmons could score without having to give the ball to iverson every trip down the court.
oddly enough that didnt work out and now he is a sg/sf who is extremely ball dominant. he can do a little of everything but cant dominate at anything... he was supposed to be a big pg who could see over defenders and so on... just like evans. he couldnt shoot that well just like evans... and he wasnt that athletic just like evans....
i dont see where his game comes anywhere close to wades, he isnt nearly as athletic... i dont see where his game even comes close to resembling that of a pg of any type. unathletic sg, definitely... but pg? nope. shaun livingston was a big pg... he played like a pg but was taller than the average pg. evans plays like a sg trying to play pg... its easy to get away with that in college but this is the nba and we have the worst team in the league. if this were a better team and we could somehow hide his limitations by having better players around him then maybe it would work. but we dont so it wont.
maybe he is more of bonzi wells type of bruiser sg... who can just bully his way through people. the are the same height and size. both arent freakishly athletic but are good rebounders for guards....
i dont know how some of you guys see him as a pg but whatever... he will probably become a pretty good player in the end and i hope he stays with the kings and we dont have to trade martin just because petrie was too afraid to draft a pg(rubio, flynn, jennings pick one, petrie didnt).
lets all cross our fingers a hope that sergio exceeds expectations and becomes the pg that we need.
the more i think about it the more evans reminds me of john salmons, they hae the exact same type of game. when salmons first came into the league he was projected to be a pg. i remember when he was on the sixers and they would play him at pg and the only time he played well was when iverson wasnt on the court and salmons could score without having to give the ball to iverson every trip down the court.
oddly enough that didnt work out and now he is a sg/sf who is extremely ball dominant. he can do a little of everything but cant dominate at anything... he was supposed to be a big pg who could see over defenders and so on... just like evans. he couldnt shoot that well just like evans... and he wasnt that athletic just like evans....
i dont see where his game comes anywhere close to wades, he isnt nearly as athletic... i dont see where his game even comes close to resembling that of a pg of any type. unathletic sg, definitely... but pg? nope. shaun livingston was a big pg... he played like a pg but was taller than the average pg. evans plays like a sg trying to play pg... its easy to get away with that in college but this is the nba and we have the worst team in the league. if this were a better team and we could somehow hide his limitations by having better players around him then maybe it would work. but we dont so it wont.
maybe he is more of bonzi wells type of bruiser sg... who can just bully his way through people. the are the same height and size. both arent freakishly athletic but are good rebounders for guards....
i dont know how some of you guys see him as a pg but whatever... he will probably become a pretty good player in the end and i hope he stays with the kings and we dont have to trade martin just because petrie was too afraid to draft a pg(rubio, flynn, jennings pick one, petrie didnt).
lets all cross our fingers a hope that sergio exceeds expectations and becomes the pg that we need.
Gary
All-Star
I am not even sure they keep record of how many times someone has been fouled in a year. If they do then it's pretty obscure.
I do understand what you are talking about though.. I still disagree with you. Martin is one of the best in the league at creating contact and getting to the free throw line. Who cares how he does it.. You have got to have a pretty high BBall IQ to know when you can get a player into trouble. As for Evans just driving to the basket and getting fouled? I am sure he will get about 6-8 based solely on that per game within a few years but he probably never will have Martin's knack to get a bunch of created contact foul calls.
Look at the list of the top FT shooters that are SF/guards.. Wade, James, Harris, Arenas, Kobe, Pierce... These guys are pretty damn good at creating contact like Martin. The only real "brute" I can see in the top of the list is James. But then again he can create contact as well with that fade.
Anyhow, I am not going say someone is better than one of the best until he can prove it on the court. Until then he's the guy that shot about 5 a game in college.
Chupacabra
Starter
lol I dont even see a debate. As ive said before on this site Evans played pg in college and was drafted as such and his first nba game played will be as a point guard. Those are all facts. Unless its an EXTREME failure a point guard Evans will stay. He's a physically uber-dominant pg and thats nothing but a good thing.
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AriesMar27
Guest
that and all of the players that you mentioned initiate the contact themselves... like i said earlier no other players in the nba get fouled by just standing there except shaq in his prime and howard. but thats just them being hack-a-shaq'd.... kobe goes out of his way to get fouled and so does lebron, when they dont get the call they flip out.... especially at the end of games... martin is no different, thats the thing i like the most about martins game. if he werent such a twig he probably would bang on players and get to the line even more but he's a twig and doesnt.
martinis the only player we have that not only tries to get to the line for the easy 2 shots from the line but actually does it well... if evans got half of the attempts that martin does he would be 2nd on the team in fta and thats a damn shame.
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Kingsguy881
Guest
I think it is SVG that says that there is no statistic that covers the pass that leads to the assist.If we wanted Memphis's best passer/distributor we should have drafted Anderson. But I am willing to give Evans a chance to prove himself.. The Kings aren't going anywhere anytime soon so it will be a time for testing unorthodoxed lineups.
It's ok though. A lot of people find it funny when people call Evans a PG. He's a Guard, or kind of a combo guard.
What that means is that the person who breaks down the defense is not always given credit for doing so, in the box score. But coaches know this and recognize it. Which is why Calipari turned to Evans as his floor general. Look, you can't argue with results. Calipari took his woeful Memphis team and turned them into a top seeded team by doing what again? Oh yeah, 'calling Reke out at practice, telling him that he was going to be the pg'.
All his basketball life, Reke has been the best player on his team. Grade school, high school, college. What is most telling is that his college team was floundering until they put the ball in his hands and said 'Go win some games'. How many in a row was that again? A freshman led his team on what kind of streak, again?
His turnovers are a direct result of him playing with players who were not as good as him. His coach had to coddle him, 'trust your teammates, they will help you out'. Reke knew that in order for his team to succeed he had to take over. And take over he did. They kicked butt. Reke kicked butt, AS THE PG, FLOOR GENERAL, LEADER.
Look, I'm in the camp that wanted Rubio. I wanted the Kings to have this flashy, other wordly passer kid who would make those around him better. But the more I look at this as a knowledgable basketball person other than the true die hard Kings fan that I am (growing up with a 'Tank' as my neighbor and yes, I met the late Ricky Berry when I was 11 along with most of the players who played from 87-89, don't ever question my Kings fan loyalty please) the more I see how Petrie stole one this year right out from under 2 teams noses (the teams that drafted before him did what they were supposed to do so this practically fell in Petries lap).
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AriesMar27
Guest
philly fans said the same thing about salmons when he first got to the sixers... i was a huge iverson fan back in the day and read tons of philly boards back then.... thats the main reason why i know this wont work. ive seen it all before....
it'll be the happiest dissappointment that you'll ever experience, evans will be a good player in the end but not as a pg. a guard but not a point guard. hopefully his game will evolve to the point where he can play sf like salmons did so that we dont have to trade martin.
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Kingsguy881
Guest
You just proved my point.
edit;
Matter of fact, I didn't want to come out and say it because he might read these boards or have someone who does. I like Martin. A lot. My game was very similar to his (this is my wife's account) growing up and I'm one of his biggest supporters.
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AriesMar27
Guest
the same could be said about douby a couple of years ago and how did that turn out? we passed on several pg's that wouldve been much better than douby(rondo, farmar, sergio, marcus williams to a lesser extent) and we wouldnt have beno right now.... what garbage full mle pg will we sign when evans doesnt pan out at pg?
a weak draft and we were in position to grab a pg, we needed a pg, we had our choice of the best pgs in the draft and picked a combo guard who we thought that we could turn into a pg.
man that sounds so familiar....
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AriesMar27
Guest
i knew it.... you couldnt be a female.
but that doesnt prove your point, i just want to see him throw it down on someone... he has the athleticism but lacks the size to make proper use of it.
Chupacabra
Starter
The way i see it Evans was drafted to play pg. He's going to play pg unless some unknown event takes place in the future that will determine otherwise. Saying right now that Evans isnt going to hack it and he will be a shooting guard isnt based on real information. Its pure speculation. I dont think theres currently any room to argue against Evans being a pg. He has to have a bad season or 2 first.
The side of the "arguement" that says Evans will play pg is based on the fact that he played pg and shooting guard in highschool and played pg in college, was drafted to play pg, and currently is the Kings pg. There are tangible,real facts shown on this side of the debate.
You cant make an arguement against facts unless you actually have some.
If youre going to compare Salmons to Evans you have to use 19 year old Salmons as the comparison, or atleast Preseason rookie Salmons. The comparison isnt close.
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AriesMar27
Guest
well i could say that the sun is going to rise tomorrow without knowing why or how... its not based on any scientific data just based on the fact that ive seen it happen a thousand times... how many more times will i have to watch it rise before i stop worrying about it? ive seen several combo guards try to make the transition to full time pg and failed each and every time. how many more will have to fail before gms stop trying?
and evans played pg in college because his team didnt have one, not because they thought he would be the best pg the sacramento knings have ever seen. he was like the 3rd player on his team to try to play pg... he was just bigger and slightly better than his competition. its like playing a videogame on easy and using the same stupid tactic every time and winning. once you switch to hard that strategy no longer works...
i know how and why the sun rises i just used it as an example... dont know why im making a note of it but hey....
Chupacabra
Starter
I dont think the sun rising tomorrow is a reasonable example to use in comparison to Evans not making it as a point guard. None of the exampes youve used are without a counterpoint. Evans was the 3rd option to play pg at Memphis at one point early in the college bball season. Before Evans was pg the Temple Tigers were 6-3. After Tyreke became pg they went on one of the longest winning streaks in NCAA bball. What does that say? It says many things. What it doesnt say is that Evans wont be a good pg in the NBA.
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AriesMar27
Guest
yes it is... i am that sure that it wont work.... it hasnt worked before and it wont work now.... either you have it or you dont, if he doesnt have it by now he wont have it later on. this goes back to the pgs are born argument. evans has been a combo guard his entire life, why do you think that he will change now? a zebra cant change its stripes and evans cant be pg. he can most definitely try and i wish him the best of luck. but i have a better chance of winning the lottery with a one dollar quick pick than evans does of making it as a pg and being successful. if he is stuck playing there thats not his decision. but we as fans will pay the price, he would be a great sg. his style of play and skill level is exactly what we need coming off the bench.
outside of martin i dont think we have another player that wants to score that can actually do it. we'll have to see what thompson and hawes do this coming season but i doubt that either one will 20ppg scorers any time soon. evans is our best shot at a 2nd scoring threat on this team. garcia isnt the guy to do it and he is our best bench player. which is a damn shame.
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AriesMar27
Guest
2 years ago the rockets went on an incredible 22 game win streak most of which without yao... then they lost in the first round.... so what? what does that prove? if the had yao for a couple of those games they probably wouldve lost. during this years playoffs the rockets took the lakers to 7 games without yao and mcgrady and in one game blew them out in one of the most lopsided victories in recent history.... im not seeing the point.
memphis had nothing to lose because everyone had written them off, they surprised a lot of teams. they were greater than the sum of their parts. but that doesnt mean that evans is a starting pg in the nba...
Chupacabra
Starter
Pre-Evans pg Tigers went 6-3. Post-Evans Tigers went 27-1. What the Memphis winning streak shows is that Evans was most effective as a point guard. Thats all that it says towards Evans playing pg. It doesnt say he will be a great NBA pg and it doesnt say he wont be.
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AriesMar27
Guest
it shows that he played it in college and it worked that one time for that one season. thats why i mentioned the rockets winning streak, it doesnt mean much in the long run. maybe evans was just better than his competition. douby was the best player on his team and he is a scrub in the nba. look at all of the former duke player that are in the nba... success in college doesnt guarantee you success in the nba no matter how well you do in college.
Chupacabra
Starter
The comment in bold is absolutely true and I agree. However, success in college doesnt guarantee failure in the NBA either. In other words, theres no way to turn success against someones ability to succeed in the future. Quincy Douby was never regarded as an elite player the way Evans has been. Douby wasnt picked anywhere near #4 in the draft. They also play 2 completely different styles. Everyone knows that Dukes greatness is thanks to having the best bball coach in the world (in my opinion).
So basically it's a matter of PG till proven otherwise or not PG till proven otherwise isn't it? It all comes down to whether we want to believe that Evan's success at PG (although he also wasn't playing a very conventional PG role) will carry on to the NBA automatically/eventually. I think most fans here acknowledge that Tyreke will be a successful NBA player, even at the PG position, but that his style of playing may clash with that of our current "face of the franchise" player in Martin.
I think it's great that we'd like to be successful, utilizing and maximising Evans' potential while keeping Martin around, who is a lot of people's (myself included) favourite player on the roster at the moment. But as VF says, we really can't tell until we see the team play, and even then it may take a season or two for our star guards to really gel and learn to play well together.
Either way, we end up with at least one star guard on the team and if we must trade the other we should get pretty good value in the end. In another thread fans were saying how they pretty much just want a title and don't really care what the consequences are. So even if we have to give up one player in the future, possibly Martin, to build a stronger team that can make a serious run I'm all for it.
On a side note, I think what kingsgurl('s husband) is saying is that if both players were just trying to score, Tyreke will naturally get fouled more due to his style of play than Martin, who needs to make an effort to get fouled. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't see any argument in this anyway because on one hand Martin IS the better player in drawing fouls but on the other you probably want a player more like Evans in the clutch when fouls may not be as easily called. Whatever it is, I don't care we're still racking up fouls on the other team's players
I think it's great that we'd like to be successful, utilizing and maximising Evans' potential while keeping Martin around, who is a lot of people's (myself included) favourite player on the roster at the moment. But as VF says, we really can't tell until we see the team play, and even then it may take a season or two for our star guards to really gel and learn to play well together.
Either way, we end up with at least one star guard on the team and if we must trade the other we should get pretty good value in the end. In another thread fans were saying how they pretty much just want a title and don't really care what the consequences are. So even if we have to give up one player in the future, possibly Martin, to build a stronger team that can make a serious run I'm all for it.
On a side note, I think what kingsgurl('s husband) is saying is that if both players were just trying to score, Tyreke will naturally get fouled more due to his style of play than Martin, who needs to make an effort to get fouled. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't see any argument in this anyway because on one hand Martin IS the better player in drawing fouls but on the other you probably want a player more like Evans in the clutch when fouls may not be as easily called. Whatever it is, I don't care we're still racking up fouls on the other team's players
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AriesMar27
Guest
to say that evans will be fouled based on his style of play is one thing, to say that he will be fouled more than the player that is 2nd in freethrow attemps is another... kobe gets fouled a lot based on the way that he plays but still manages to average fewer attempts than martin. to say that evans will be fouled more than martin is the same as saying he will be shooting more freethrows. unless less you mean that he will be getting hacked and not going to the line.
thats all we are saying, no one is saying that evans wont get any calls but not more than someone who damn near leads the league in that category.
thats all we are saying, no one is saying that evans wont get any calls but not more than someone who damn near leads the league in that category.
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Kingsguy881
Guest
Yup. I am starting to get tired of AM27's one sided rants about how he already knows that Evans won't succeed. He uses no basis in fact. Its getting kinda pathetic, but I'm definitely going to be bringing up a lot of things for his memory and edification during the season.
The sun rising is a fact, it rises everyday and unless the solar system blows up it will rise tomorrow. And if you don't believe me just wait and I guarantee you will see the sun rise tomorrow...and the next day...and the next day.
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AriesMar27
Guest
im just saying that evans wont be successful as a pg. he might become a great player one day but it wont be as a pg. i just hope his short comings as a pg doesnt get the coach fired....
and dont steal my line... i said that because i am that sure that evans wont be a pg in the end. just like the sun will be rising everyday for the next few million years. feel welcome to post in my "i told you so thread" at the end of the season... i wont even put it up during the season i'll give him the entire season.
dont be a stranger....
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Kingsguy881
Guest
How do you know. The games haven't even been played yet. You know the slogan 'thats why they play the games.....'
bajaden
Hall of Famer
No actually they did have a point guard, and the team was going nowhere with him at the helm. That, is a fact.... Calipari admited that he had orginally played Evans out of position, and that it was a mistake. Also, using your logic, I guess we should just discount any accheivment at the college level, because, Well, is just not the NBA..
A lot of people want to stick their heads in a stat book and make all their judgements on them. And believe me, I look at the stats as well. But what I pay the most attention to in my judgement of a player, comes mostly two things. What I personally saw with my own two eyes. And, Results!!!
When a player has been a winner since he was 12 years old, and every team he's been on has been a winner, that is called results. When a person gets straight A's through gradeschool, highschool, and college. Am I now susposed to believe that he's going to be a failure. Where, prey tell is the logic in that? I'm susposed to believe that because his vertical isn't as high as others that he's going to fail. Because someone called him a combo guard, he's going to fail.
Gary! I probably saw Evans play as many games as you did last year. Maybe more, because, unlike you, I liked a lot of what I saw. No, he wasn't perfect. But you know what. He was a whole lot better than Holiday, and a bunch of other freshmen that were being held up as potential future stars. One could argue that he was hands down the best freshman in college last year. I don't personally care if he's a picture perfect point guard. I only care about results, and most of all,I care about the team winning. And to that end, I don't care who we trade to accomplish that.
I like Martin. I've defended him on this fourm. And, I've also pointed out his flaws on this fourm. And If trading him makes this team better, then so be it. Thompson is one of my favorite players. But if trading him makes this team better, then so be it.
This is a nineteen year old kid that hasn't even set foot on an NBA floor yet. And yet, he seems to be polarizing people. Maybe thats a good thing to the extent that at least it creates conservation and interest. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. But let us all remember that its just that. Opinion! The only facts that are on display here are the recent accomplishments of a 19 year old kid. A kid that almost singlehandedly took his team to the top of the NCAA championships. You can argue about how he did it. You can point out the things he may have done better. But you can't argue with the result. And my friends, no one cares if you look good losing. And if you look bad winning. No on cares how you looked. They only care that you won.
TaxMan
Starter
The reason most get annoyed with you is that you state it as a fact that he won't be successful as a PG. Clearly this is not a fact, this is your opinion. I'm sure you must be phrasing your posts like this on purpose to get a rise out of people. Fine, whatever floats your boat. However, those arguing against you in this thread I think mainly take issue with your superiority complex. I would say most are of the opinion that they are willing to give Evans a shot to play PG in the NBA and see if how he develops. What's the percentage chance he will be successful at that position? Who knows, maybe it's really low....but it's certainly greater than zero for a player of his natural talent.
The thing is, success at the PG position is subjective. There are many different styles of play. I suspect you define success at the position as the Rubio type (i.e. the distributor.) I don't think anyone believes Evans is going to turn into that type of player, but that doesn't mean he can't be a successful PG. Fast forward 3 years and the Kings somehow lose in the western conference finals with Evans at the point. I can already see your posts...."if only they had a real PG, they'd be in the finals...."
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Kingsguy881
Guest
A-bloody-men.
You can't disregard the fact that Memphis went on their streak when they finally started playing in conference USA. Which sucks. Granted he was a better pg than anyone else on the team but he wasn't the sole reason for their streak. And he turned the ball over a lot because he frequently tried to force the action and doesn't have the best passing instincts.
The reality is we won't know if he will be successsful at pg until he plays there. But it's also a reality that his own college and high school played him at the 2 a lot and that combo guards trying tobtransition to pg have a very bad track record in the NBA. I think we all hope Evans is an exception.
Jerryaki
Starter
we have a winner.
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