of course with all the trades that went down today 12/18 kingz dont take any action

Spike said:
Three years of trying to build through the draft ain't jack. OKC did it, Portland, injuries aside did it, even Memphis has some promising pieces. What do they all have in common? I'll give you a minute.

We sucked for the greater part of a DECADE before getting Webber. The team has been drafting quite well, and one more top 5 lottery pick will certainly put us in the OKC model.

There's nothing to spend. Aging vets are not the solution here.
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So we should suffer through another DECADE? Also Webber was a star player we traded for...we didn't draft him. He wasn't as old as carter/arenas, sure but he certainly was a highly touted star that we paid for and the result? Our small-market team became a title contender.
 
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nickmcclure said:
So we should suffer through another DECADE? Also Webber was a star player we traded for...we didn't draft him. He wasn't as old as carter/arenas, sure but he certainly was a highly paid star that we paid for and the result? Our small-market team became a title contender.
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And who did we trade to get Webber, a former first overall pick? We traded Mitch Richmond, a former 5th overall pick, who we had previously acquired for Billy Owens, a former third overall pick. You have to trade talent to get talent. And when we acquired him he was still on his rookie contract so we most certainly did not pay big money to get him, that came later.

Besides, with Cousins and Tyreke on the team already we will not suffer through another decade of mediocrity. We need more players to push us into contention but we're losing close games right now with what we've got already. Close games. The future is not as bleak as 5-20 would seem to indicate.
 
nickmcclure said:
So we should suffer through another DECADE? Also Webber was a star player we traded for...we didn't draft him. He wasn't as old as carter/arenas, sure but he certainly was a highly touted star that we paid for and the result? Our small-market team became a title contender.
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Webber was 25 years old. You want to go point out the 25 year old superstar in the making we can trade for, then we can talk. Otherwise we wait...Reke and Cousins are sorting out their issues, but when they've got them sorted we may already have the stars in town.
 
hrdboild said:
And who did we trade to get Webber, a former first overall pick? We traded Mitch Richmond, a former 5th overall pick, who we had previously acquired for Billy Owens, a former third overall pick. You have to trade talent to get talent. And when we acquired him he was still on his rookie contract so we most certainly did not pay big money to get him, that came later.

Besides, with Cousins and Tyreke on the team already we will not suffer through another decade of mediocrity. We need more players to push us into contention but we're losing close games right now with what we've got already. Close games. The future is not as bleak as 5-20 would seem to indicate.
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I'm not advocating like throwing a bunch of money to get a slightly better player than we have now and you made some good points but I bolded part of your statement. We need more players. The sky has been falling for sometime now and teams are so stacked right now you have to spend money to get talent. The NBA is not as competitive as it once was (not based on talent, but team to team.) If we want to win some ball games we're going to need some consistent offense which none of our players seem to posess. It makes me sick a large group of us Kings fans are willing to call it a season 25 games in. I say the organization grows a pair and makes a splash. It's pretty desperate right now with our arena fiasco and the economy killing business.
 
IMO, Cousins at 25 will be damn close to what Webber was at 25, and both would be more of a cornerstone for a championship caliber team. Melo can play 2nd fiddle at best.
 
Bricklayer said:
Webber was 25 years old. You want to go point out the 25 year old superstar in the making we can trade for, then we can talk. Otherwise we wait...Reke and Cousins are sorting out their issues, but when they've got them sorted we may already have the stars in town.
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Don't get me wrong I think Tyreke (my 2nd fav. player) and Cousins are great. IMO they are the only 2 players on our team we should keep at all costs but having a good combo guard and budding center aren't enough nowadays. We need a consistent shooter. You seem to be looking for a young star and you're right, there aren't too many 25 year olds in our radar but if you ask me we have too much youth. We could use a solid vet to help on and off the court. I saw an interview with Carl Landry (who's only in his 3rd year) and he eluded to maturity issues in the locker-room. PS most of our players are role-players. Us Kings fans are very, very loyal...to a fault. Let's face it we have a lot of unproven, immature players on this team.
 
rainmaker said:
IMO, Cousins at 25 will be damn close to what Webber was at 25, and both would be more of a cornerstone for a championship caliber team. Melo can play 2nd fiddle at best.
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Maybe...maybe. Let's not forget Webber averaged 27 PPG for a season. Cousins is awesome, no doubt. Good draft pick for sure but Carmelo was better than Cousins his rookie year and he's progressed since then to an astronomic level. He was the #1 option on a championship-caliber team in Denver already. I'm not saying Cousins can't get there as his ceiling is very, very high but how nice would it be to have both guys on our team?
 
nickmcclure said:
Maybe...maybe. Let's not forget Webber averaged 27 PPG for a season. Cousins is awesome, no doubt. Good draft pick for sure but Carmelo was better than Cousins his rookie year and he's progressed since then to an astronomic level. He was the #1 option on a championship-caliber team in Denver already. I'm not saying Cousins can't get there as his ceiling is very, very high but how nice would it be to have both guys on our team?
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The problem is I'm not sure how Carmelo would work with Tyreke. Both of them need the ball to be effective, and we can't have two balls (no pun intended...).
 
nickmcclure said:
I'm not advocating like throwing a bunch of money to get a slightly better player than we have now and you made some good points but I bolded part of your statement. We need more players. The sky has been falling for sometime now and teams are so stacked right now you have to spend money to get talent. The NBA is not as competitive as it once was (not based on talent, but team to team.) If we want to win some ball games we're going to need some consistent offense which none of our players seem to posess. It makes me sick a large group of us Kings fans are willing to call it a season 25 games in. I say the organization grows a pair and makes a splash. It's pretty desperate right now with our arena fiasco and the economy killing business.
Click to expand...

Well I will say this, I wasn't ready to concede the season yesterday at 5-19. For some reason the perfect ratio of 5-20 and it's corresponding .200 win percentage puts a nail in the coffin for me, but it is really just one game. Half of those losses wire winnable games that we didn't do enough to control. I expect in the second half more of those will start turning in our favor. And if we can make a move at some point this season that brings in a veteran who isn't going to drastically reduce our window of contention than I'm all for it because I think all of our young players would benefit from developing a winning attitude and swagger as soon as possible.

After watching our last legitimate attempt at a championship crumble amidst a pile of injuries and retirements I'm a little more gun shy than most about doing anything at all to reduce our window of contention. So that's my own personal bias. I'm a "never make the same mistake twice" kind of guy. I'd love to have a team of all 20 year old superstars take on everyone else's fading veterans for the next 15 years, getting stronger each year as everyone else gets weaker. I feel like I'm owed something as a loyal fan -- and what I'm owed is a team that is going to rip the hearts out of everyone else in their way. :) There's no rational reason why (Robert Horry) it's just (Webber's knees) karma or something.

But I'll also admit that just watching a .500 team would be an improvement. I'm as tired of the losing as everyone else.
 
nickmcclure said:
if you ask me we have too much youth. We could use a solid vet to help on and off the court.
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That's really what it comes down to. Their main problem as I see it is that their most experienced guys lack talent and their most talented guys lack experience. You need a guy or two on the roster that has both in abundance in order to win.
 
Asaf said:
The problem is I'm not sure how Carmelo would work with Tyreke. Both of them need the ball to be effective, and we can't have two balls (no pun intended...).
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haha cue punchline drums. Yeah that would be a dilemma so to speak but I'd rather be worring about how to balance an offense with the two of them then the predicament we're in now.
 
RookieOfTheDay said:
Miami seems to be working it out.
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We'll see how that works come playoff time. So far they've been beasting on weak teams and losing to strong teams for the most part. Unfortunately for them, they are not going to meet the Sacramento Kings in the playoffs...
 
RookieOfTheDay said:
That's really what it comes down to. Their main problem as I see it is that their most experienced guys lack talent and their most talented guys lack experience. You need a guy or two on the roster that has both in abundance in order to win.
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Yessir, and we have ONE of those in-between players. His name is Beno Udrih, he's a former NBA champ.
 
hrdboild said:
Well I will say this, I wasn't ready to concede the season yesterday at 5-19. For some reason the perfect ratio of 5-20 and it's corresponding .200 win percentage puts a nail in the coffin for me, but it is really just one game. Half of those losses wire winnable games that we didn't do enough to control. I expect in the second half more of those will start turning in our favor. And if we can make a move at some point this season that brings in a veteran who isn't going to drastically reduce our window of contention than I'm all for it because I think all of our young players would benefit from developing a winning attitude and swagger as soon as possible.

After watching our last legitimate attempt at a championship crumble amidst a pile of injuries and retirements I'm a little more gun shy than most about doing anything at all to reduce our window of contention. So that's my own personal bias. I'm a "never make the same mistake twice" kind of guy. I'd love to have a team of all 20 year old superstars take on everyone else's fading veterans for the next 15 years, getting stronger each year as everyone else gets weaker. I feel like I'm owed something as a loyal fan -- and what I'm owed is a team that is going to rip the hearts out of everyone else in their way. :) There's no rational reason why (Robert Horry) it's just (Webber's knees) karma or something.

But I'll also admit that just watching a .500 team would be an improvement. I'm as tired of the losing as everyone else.
Click to expand...
Yeah man, I guess I can't really blame you it does feel pretty hopeless.
 
Asaf said:
We'll see how that works come playoff time. So far they've been beasting on weak teams and losing to strong teams for the most part. Unfortunately for them, they are not going to meet the Sacramento Kings in the playoffs...
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But to be fair, they really haven't played any good teams since they got their act together. I think they'll fare better against the good teams from here on out.
 
hrdboild said:
Well I will say this, I wasn't ready to concede the season yesterday at 5-19. For some reason the perfect ratio of 5-20 and it's corresponding .200 win percentage puts a nail in the coffin for me, but it is really just one game. Half of those losses wire winnable games that we didn't do enough to control. I expect in the second half more of those will start turning in our favor. And if we can make a move at some point this season that brings in a veteran who isn't going to drastically reduce our window of contention than I'm all for it because I think all of our young players would benefit from developing a winning attitude and swagger as soon as possible.

After watching our last legitimate attempt at a championship crumble amidst a pile of injuries and retirements I'm a little more gun shy than most about doing anything at all to reduce our window of contention. So that's my own personal bias. I'm a "never make the same mistake twice" kind of guy. I'd love to have a team of all 20 year old superstars take on everyone else's fading veterans for the next 15 years, getting stronger each year as everyone else gets weaker. I feel like I'm owed something as a loyal fan -- and what I'm owed is a team that is going to rip the hearts out of everyone else in their way. :) There's no rational reason why (Robert Horry) it's just (Webber's knees) karma or something.

But I'll also admit that just watching a .500 team would be an improvement. I'm as tired of the losing as everyone else.
Click to expand...
Yeah man, I guess I can't really blame you it does feel pretty hopeless. My friend who grew up in chicago and is a life-long Bulls fan came to the realization the other day that the Kings have never signed a major player in the off-season. We either draft or even more rarely trade for talent. I really like a lot of our youngins. Donte, Tyreke, Casspi, Jeter, Cousins they are all fun to watch but when you see game after game of us just handing over wins in the 4th and then you look at teams with solid veteran stars like NY, MIA, Boston, San Ant pop off 8+ game winning streaks you get jealous lol.
 
nickmcclure said:
Yessir, and we have ONE of those in-between players. His name is Beno Udrih, he's a former NBA champ.
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I was talking to a buddy the other day. We were joking about how when Beno is your best player, you're in trouble. No disrespect to Beno, but he shouldn't be the best player on the team and overall, he has been this year.
 
RookieOfTheDay said:
But to be fair, they really haven't played any good teams since they got their act together. I think they'll fare better against the good teams from here on out.
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I still won't be convinced until they win a playoff series against a good team (and in the east that means the second round). Cleveland beasted on the league in the regular season in the previous two seasons and we know how that ended. The stretch of wins over weak to mediocre teams lately doesn't make up for the fact that they have nothing in the paint and nothing at PG. But back to the two balls thing - making it work against teams with smart defense will be much harder than against NYK or SAC, especially when teams will come prepared to break them down and shut down their driving lanes.
 
Asaf said:
We'll see how that works come playoff time. So far they've been beasting on weak teams and losing to strong teams for the most part. Unfortunately for them, they are not going to meet the Sacramento Kings in the playoffs...
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That was true earlier this season but they seem to be gelling now with victories over NY and Dallas as part of their 10 game win streak.
 
Asaf said:
I still won't be convinced until they win a playoff series against a good team (and in the east that means the second round). Cleveland beasted on the league in the regular season in the previous two seasons and we know how that ended. The stretch of wins over weak to mediocre teams lately doesn't make up for the fact that they have nothing in the paint and nothing at PG. But back to the two balls thing - making it work against teams with smart defense will be much harder than against NYK or SAC, especially when teams will come prepared to break them down and shut down their driving lanes.
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Good points. But i think at this point we can all agree that having two superstars that need the ball would be a pretty nice problem to have.
 
nickmcclure said:
Yeah man, I guess I can't really blame you it does feel pretty hopeless. My friend who grew up in chicago and is a life-long Bulls fan came to the realization the other day that the Kings have never signed a major player in the off-season. We either draft or even more rarely trade for talent. I really like a lot of our youngins. Donte, Tyreke, Casspi, Jeter, Cousins they are all fun to watch but when you see game after game of us just handing over wins in the 4th and then you look at teams with solid veteran stars like NY, MIA, Boston, San Ant pop off 8+ game winning streaks you get jealous lol.
Click to expand...

There's a reason for that, and that's why I said blowing money in free agency is the worst way for us to acquire talent. No free agent who is good enough to have a choice will choose us over a big-market team, especially when we are the worst team in the league and he can play for a big-market contender. For franchise level players, ,money isnt even an issue because they will get their max contranct on those teams so why even bother considering us? For lower level players, we could theoretically get them but we would have to pay them so far above the market value that it will hurt our ability to pay the talents that we draft when their rookie contracts are up, and limit us in trades. So with that, the main way for a team like us to acquire talent is through the draft, and the best way to acquire veteran leadership is through trades. To pull off trades that will bring us quality players means we have to draft a lot of talent so we have talented youth that is also given sufficient playing time to be showcased, and lots of capspace. Overpaying lower level vets will hurt us both with capspace and with showcasing our tradeable youth, which means that by going after talent in the least efficient way for us, we would hurt our ability to acquire talent in the most efficient ways.
 
Asaf said:
There's a reason for that, and that's why I said blowing money in free agency is the worst way for us to acquire talent. No free agent who is good enough to have a choice will choose us over a big-market team, especially when we are the worst team in the league and he can play for a big-market contender. For franchise level players, ,money isnt even an issue because they will get their max contranct on those teams so why even bother considering us? For lower level players, we could theoretically get them but we would have to pay them so far above the market value that it will hurt our ability to pay the talents that we draft when their rookie contracts are up, and limit us in trades. So with that, the main way for a team like us to acquire talent is through the draft, and the best way to acquire veteran leadership is through trades. To pull off trades that will bring us quality players means we have to draft a lot of talent so we have talented youth that is also given sufficient playing time to be showcased, and lots of capspace. Overpaying lower level vets will hurt us both with capspace and with showcasing our tradeable youth, which means that by going after talent in the least efficient way for us, we would hurt our ability to acquire talent in the most efficient ways.
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When you look at it that way, maybe how this season is going is a blessing in disguise if it lands us a 3rd top 5 pick in as many years. You get enough top 5 picks and you almost have to get good eventually.
 
Asaf said:
There's a reason for that, and that's why I said blowing money in free agency is the worst way for us to acquire talent. No free agent who is good enough to have a choice will choose us over a big-market team, especially when we are the worst team in the league and he can play for a big-market contender. For franchise level players, ,money isnt even an issue because they will get their max contranct on those teams so why even bother considering us? For lower level players, we could theoretically get them but we would have to pay them so far above the market value that it will hurt our ability to pay the talents that we draft when their rookie contracts are up, and limit us in trades. So with that, the main way for a team like us to acquire talent is through the draft, and the best way to acquire veteran leadership is through trades. To pull off trades that will bring us quality players means we have to draft a lot of talent so we have talented youth that is also given sufficient playing time to be showcased, and lots of capspace. Overpaying lower level vets will hurt us both with capspace and with showcasing our tradeable youth, which means that by going after talent in the least efficient way for us, we would hurt our ability to acquire talent in the most efficient ways.
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Yeah I get that to a degree. Like I've said before we're gonna have a struggle convincing quality players to come here (I remember Webber's initial reaction to the trade to Sacramento was pretty negative.) However, aside from the trade to aquire Artest, we have been trying to build through the draft with limited success for some time now. We're really clinging on to that 01-02 season peak and it's time to move on.
 
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