of course with all the trades that went down today 12/18 kingz dont take any action

[Tetsujin]

Well to be fair, hasn't Redd been out all year and I believe Bogut is out now too?

The Michael Redd of now is not the Michael Redd of four or five years ago. We're talking about a hobbled small forward who has become a streak shooter at best. If memory serves me correct, Bogut has been playing for most of the season.

 

[Asaf]

No. It's like buying a TV the week before a sale that some people think might go down but no one really knows for certain.

So what would be wrong with waiting a week to find out if the sale is actually happening?

 

[Tetsujin]

We already did a trade, remember? It's for a scrub that won't see the light of day and if he does he won't see much of it. I sure hope to god one of Beno, Dalembert, Garcia & Landry are gone by the deadline. Orlando is clearly looking for a back up big and a Dalembert trade wouldn't be out of the question.

And who does Orlando have that we would want? If Nelson is as good as everyon seems to think, they aren't going to part with him so someone could play ten minutes a game to back up Dwight.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

So what would be wrong with waiting a week to find out if the sale is actually happening?

If the sale doesn't happen and the TV you were going to buy is gone by then, you're SOL. Basically, you hold off of buying a Felton, Redick, Miller, etc. because you hope next year you'll be able to get someone equal or better at a discount rate. But if the discount rate doesn't pan out, then you're stuck paying full price for whatever is left.

 

[Asaf]

And who does Orlando have that we would want? If Nelson is as good as everyon seems to think, they aren't going to part with him so someone could play ten minutes a game to back up Dwight.

Orlando is rumored to have been shopping Nelson for a while, and now they have Arenas at PG. They are somewhat dissapointed in Nelson, but he is still far better than anything we have at PG, and they could use Landry off the bench. Also, Nelson's contract is not horrible, and would be up before we have to pay Tyreke and Cousins.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

If Nelson is as good as everyon seems to think, they aren't going to part with him so someone could play ten minutes a game to back up Dwight.

They might if backing up Dwight is a higher priority for them than keeping guard who will probably be coming off the bench. It's about filling a need. Orlando is in win now mode, which is the perfect opportunity to possibly snag a player at a price you couldn't get otherwise.

 

[Asaf]

If the sale doesn't happen and the TV you were going to buy is gone buy then, you're SOL. Basically, you hold off of buying a Felton, Redick, Miller, etc. because you hope next year you'll be able to get someone equal or better at a discount rate. But if the discount rate doesn't pan out, then you're stuck paying full price for whatever is left.

With all due respect to the Feltons, Millers, and Reddicks, they are hardly a rare commodity. They are not franchise players and not worth overpaying. At their level there will be plenty of players in the 2011 FA class and there just might be a sale that week.

 

[kingsboi]

And who does Orlando have that we would want? If Nelson is as good as everyon seems to think, they aren't going to part with him so someone could play ten minutes a game to back up Dwight.

Well Nelson is obviously out of the question. Maybe one of Duhon/J Will?

 

[Tetsujin]

Well Nelson is obviously out of the question. Maybe one of Duhon/J Will?

But how much better does that actually make us in the long term?

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

With all due respect to the Feltons, Millers, and Reddicks, they are hardly a rare commodity.

Stats say otherwise. Three point shooters of Miller and Redick’s caliber certainly don’t grow on trees and neither do point guards like Felton. I’d ask you this, if Point Guards like Felton are so ubiquitous and easy to come by, why don’t the Kings have one?

They are not franchise players and not worth overpaying.

Well, as you should know, franchise players aren’t exactly lined up to sign on with The Kings. You have to play the hand you’re dealt, or fold. A lot of you guys want to have your cake and eat it too. You don’t want to spend anything unless it’s on a franchise player, but you must know that the odds of a franchise player coming here via free agency are slim and none.

At their level there will be plenty of players in the 2011 FA class and there just might be a sale that week.

Like who? Name me the point guards and shooters of that caliber that are available in 2011 because I just looked at the list, and I’m not seeing them. Other than Parker, who ain’t coming here, the best PG available next year is...Mo Williams who I'm not even sure would be an upgrade over Beno.

 

[kingsboi]

But how much better does that actually make us in the long term?

Not much because they are only back up PGs, but better than Head out there. It really depends what the Kings FO wants to do, they don't have to trade Dalembert/Landry for anything. They can let them walk, but what they also can and should look into doing is exploring options to get players that would fit with this team, young preferrably but a vet wouldn't be too bad either.

 

[FaStRmAn]

Kings do not need to trade for 30 something fading stars that would be bandaids at best. The fans just need to be patient. I can already see Cousins starting to show how he is going to be a very dominant player in a year or 2. They DOUBLE TEAM him every time he gets the ball down low. He is a ROOKIE for goodness sake! If they are doubling him now, just wait till he grows into that 6'11" frame of his. With a professional nutritionist, Professional trainer, and professional coaching, Cousins is going to be a beast in a coupla years! But the Key is we will have to wait till the magic happens. Tyreke is the same story. You can already see teams doubling him and setting their entire defense to try and stop Tyreke from just destroying them. He is only in his second season! With continued professional coaching, nutrition, and professional trainers to help him work out the right way, he will become an unstoppable force in a year or 2. The rest of the young Kings all have a possible bright future.

I dont see any other Allstar potential players on the Kings roster, but players like Casspi, Greene, and even down the road Whiteside will all improve and become important pieces to the Kings puzzle. But the Kings are not a big market team that can just buy their way into the playoffs. They have to BUILD their way there. I think that they have a solid inside outside game developing with Cousins and Evans. As they improve, other good players who become free agents will want to get on board. The Kings have been frugal with their money. Yes, they have the lowest payroll in the NBA NOW. But in 2 years when Reke and Big Cuz are starting to hit their stride, they are gonna need some veteran help. The Front Office needs to save their money and use it when they need it most. Even if they spent every cent of their cap room today, they would most likely not make the playoffs and they would then be in worse shape than before! Time will improve this team. I hate to wait just like everyone else. This has become such a hurry up world. People want everything now now now! I say sit back and watch the maturation of our young studs, watch the Kings draft another piece next year, and then see if the Maloofs are true to their word and use the cap space they have been saving to fill out a roster that has a chance at the playoffs. Patience !!

 

[Asaf]

Stats say otherwise. Three point shooters of Miller and Redick’s caliber certainly don’t grow on trees and neither do point guards like Felton. I’d ask you this, if Point Guards like Felton are so ubiquitous and easy to come by, why don’t the Kings have one?



Well, as you should know, franchise players aren’t exactly lined up to sign on with The Kings. You have to play the hand you’re dealt, or fold. A lot of you guys want to have your cake and eat it too. You don’t want to spend anything unless it’s on a franchise player, but you must know that the odds of a franchise player coming here via free agency are slim and none.

Like who? Name me the point guards and shooters of that caliber that are available in 2011 because I just looked at the list, and I’m not seeing them. Other than Parker, who ain’t coming here, the best PG available next year is...Mo Williams.

The hand we are dealt is that free agency is probably the worst possible way we can acquire talent at this point. The best way to acquire talent for a small market franchise is through the draft, and we've done that. The second best way is through trades - for that we need assets, such as youth and capspace. Check and Check. Free agency for a small market team comes last, after you've done all you can to acquire talent via draft and trades and become good enough to attract good free agents (plus the new CBA which possibly will give us more leverage). We have the youth and capspace, now we need to become good enough by getting a new coach and acquiring someone (or two) who is going to be valuable for us through a trade. Only after that, when we are close to being at least a playoff team, would it be wise to start going after free agents. As things stand now, no free agent in their right mind will want to come here, and rightfully so. I don't know if they went after Felton, Miller, or Reddick, but like I said, chances are that if they did go after them, they got the rejection hotline.

Like you said, play the cards you are dealt - last offseason we were the kid that nobody wanted to play with. This coming offseason - maybe, and only of the new CBA gives us the power. Otherwise, I don't see any decent FA willingly signing with the Kings. Think about it, if you were a free agent good enough to have a choice of teams wanting to sign you, what would possibly make you want to join a franchise in turmoil like the Kings. Players only have so many years to play pro basketball. It's hard to expect them to want to play for a franchise with a uncertain future, a bad coach, questionable youth, and inability to attract franchise level players. That's just throwing away years of your career.

The only way we could possibly attract these free agents is to pay them double or triple of what other teams are offering them, but then we become Detroit. Villanueva's bank account says hi.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

They DOUBLE TEAM him every time he gets the ball down low. He is a ROOKIE for goodness sake! If they are doubling him now, just wait till he grows into that 6'11" frame of his. With a professional nutritionist, Professional trainer, and professional coaching, Cousins is going to be a beast in a coupla years! But the Key is we will have to wait till the magic happens. Tyreke is the same story. You can already see teams doubling him and setting their entire defense to try and stop Tyreke from just destroying them.

Which just goes to show how pathetic the rest of the team is. With two guys drawing double teams, that leaves LOTS of guys who should be open who SHOULD be hitting open shots. But they either can't get open because they don't seem to know where they're supposed to be, don't get the ball when they are open, or miss the shot if they do get it. They need proven, veteran shooters on the floor to knock down those open shots. That's the problem with this team. Other teams know if they just contain Cousins and Evans, that no one else (other than maybe Beno) can hit an open shot with any regularity.

 

[FaStRmAn]

The hand we are dealt is that free agency is probably the worst possible way we can acquire talent at this point. The best way to acquire talent for a small market franchise is through the draft, and we've done that. The second best way is through trades - for that we need assets, such as youth and capspace. Check and Check. Free agency for a small market team comes last, after you've done all you can to acquire talent via draft and trades and become good enough to attract good free agents (plus the new CBA which possibly will give us more leverage). We have the youth and capspace, now we need to become good enough by getting a new coach and acquiring someone (or two) who is going to be valuable for us through a trade. Only after that, when we are close to being at least a playoff team, would it be wise to start going after free agents. As things stand now, no free agent in their right mind will want to come here, and rightfully so. I don't know if they went after Felton, Miller, or Reddick, but like I said, chances are that if they did go after them, they got the rejection hotline.

Like you said, play the cards you are dealt - last offseason we were the kid that nobody wanted to play with. This coming offseason - maybe, and only of the new CBA gives us the power. Otherwise, I don't see any decent FA willingly signing with the Kings. Think about it, if you were a free agent good enough to have a choice of teams wanting to sign you, what would possibly make you want to join a franchise in turmoil like the Kings. Players only have so many years to play pro basketball. It's hard to expect them to want to play for a franchise with a uncertain future, a bad coach, questionable youth, and inability to attract franchise level players. That's just throwing away years of your career.

The only way we could possibly attract these free agents is to pay them double or triple of what other teams are offering them, but then we become Detroit. Villanueva's bank account says hi.

You are so absolutly RIGHT! The Kings have been playing the hand they were dealt. They HAVE improved their team in the draft. They HAVE created cap space and flexability. When the young stars the Kings have drafted hit their stride, and the team starts playing better, then they can make their move. Trades are a great way to go if you have assets that others want that you can live without. I'd like to see the Kings acquire a point guard or SF who can make his jumpshots and play defense. Petrie is working all the time to make the Kings a better team. But Trades in the NBA are near impossible with all the cap rules and restrictions. Hopefully, the Kings will finish off this season on the upswing. Then the Kings will have another lottery draft pick, cap space, and a young nucleus that is ready to bust out! Just look at the improvement that Cousins has made in just a short period of time! When Tyreke is healthy, he is a real force that is hard to stop! Patience is the key in a small market like Sacto. Our time will come.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Otherwise, I don't see any decent FA willingly signing with the Kings.

That is a problem but you can still try. Felton only signed a 2 year deal with the Knicks. Who's to say he couldn't have been persuaded to come here if he had been offered a nice 5 year deal? I get the feeling that the Maloofs have Petrie's hands tied.

 

[Asaf]

That is a problem but you can still try. Felton only signed a 2 year deal with the Knicks. Who's to say he couldn't have been persuaded to come here if he had been offered a nice 5 year deal? I get the feeling that the Maloofs have Petrie's hands tied.

Again, you don't know if they tried or not, and what they offered. The hard truth is that it's nearly impossible for us to get good free agents at this point without compromising out future, so even if they tried we don't know about it because they failed. Where we are now, our chances of beating other teams in free agency are about the same as beating them on the court, meaning very very slim.

 

[FaStRmAn]

Which just goes to show how pathetic the rest of the team is. With two guys drawing double teams, that leaves LOTS of guys who should be open who SHOULD be hitting open shots. But they either can't get open because they don't seem to know where they're supposed to be, don't get the ball when they are open, or miss the shot if they do get it. They need proven, veteran shooters on the floor to knock down those open shots. That's the problem with this team. Other teams know if they just contain Cousins and Evans, that no one else (other than maybe Beno) can hit an open shot with any regularity.

I have to agree that the rest of the team other than Tyreke and Cousins have been Pathetic. Some of it is youth. Some of it is just lack of talent. They DO need veteran players to take advantage of the players that they have already who are real NBA starters. But the facts are that the Kings dont even have a starting 5 of NBA caliber players. And they have a bench that is chocked full of CBA caliber players. The Maloofs will have to spend the money eventually to improve the product. If Cousins continues to improve, and if Tyreke continues to play like he can play, there will eventually be veteran players who want to come and play in Sacramento.

Right now, Sacramento is the NBA equivelent of a Wasteland. The only way that is gonna change is if the team they have now starts to improve. After the new CBA is signed, the Maloofs have already said they will spend money. We can only hope that the Maloofs are legit and will do as they have promised. So far, they have been men of their words. But when the season starts next year, there had better be wholesale changes to the roster to improve the product on the floor or there will be a lot of fans that will tune out permenantly.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Again, you don't know if they tried or not, and what they offered. .

Nor did I claim to know for a fact. However, generally, when a team is in serious pursuit of a free agent, it makes some news. It's nearly impossible to keep it totally secret. I highly doubt that The Kings made a serious push for Felton and it went undetected.

it's nearly impossible for us to get good free agents at this point without compromising out future

A good FA acquisition should be a part of the future, not compromise it.

 

[Bricklayer]

That is a problem but you can still try. Felton only signed a 2 year deal with the Knicks. Who's to say he couldn't have been persuaded to come here if he had been offered a nice 5 year deal? I get the feeling that the Maloofs have Petrie's hands tied.

I wouldn't have pushed for Felton either. He's never shown anything remotely like this before, and it may all well be a prime D'Antoni system illusion. 12pts 7ast and can't shoot were his M.O.s

 

[Asaf]

Nor did I claim to know for a fact. However, generally, when a team is in serious pursuit of a free agent, it makes some news. It's nearly impossible to keep it totally secret. I highly doubt that The Kings made a serious push for Felton and it went undetected.

In case you haven't noticed, the Kings don't make the news. Nobody really cared last summer which second-tier FA the Kings were or weren't pursuing. Hell, we've been going on and on since the beginning of the season about whether or not PW should keep his job. Was the possibility that the coach's status here is getting shaky even mentioned anywhere? nba.com? espn? yahoo? anything?

That together with Petrie's wikileak-proof secrecy when it comes to moves, and there is no chance you will hear about these things, whether they are happening or not.

A good FA acquisition should be a part of the future, not compromise it.

OK, so what if we gave Felton a 5-year, $80mil contract to get him to come here. Would that not compromise our future. Hedo was a FA the year before - should we have offered him the contract he got from Toronto? We might've been able to get Reddick for a max contract too. Considering what we would have to give up in the future due to burning our capspace on these contracts, would you say it's worth it?

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

In case you haven't noticed, the Kings don't make the news. Nobody really cared last summer which second-tier FA the Kings were or weren't pursuing. Hell, we've been going on and on since the beginning of the season about whether or not PW should keep his job. Was the possibility that the coach's status here is getting shaky even mentioned anywhere? nba.com? espn? yahoo? anything?

News aside, it was even made pretty clear by The Kings that they wouldn't be pursuing any free agents.

OK, so what if we gave Felton a 5-year, $80mil contract to get him to come here. Would that not compromise our future. Hedo was a FA the year before - should we have offered him the contract he got from Toronto? We might've been able to get Reddick for a max contract too. Considering what we would have to give up in the future due to burning our capspace on these contracts, would you say it's worth it?

Talk about taking things to extreme examples. Cut the 80 million in half and you're in the ballpark.

 

[Gary]

Sooner or later we have to do something (anything) to put butts in the seats even if we aren't going into the playoffs. The Kings are hanging by a thread in Sacramento and unless the Kings generate some kind of excitement the team will be history.

 

[Asaf]

News aside, it was even made pretty clear by The Kings that they wouldn't be pursuing any free agents.

Talk about taking things to extreme examples. Cut the 80 million in half and you're in the ballpark.

Well, your stance is that we should've gone after FAs full force, at any cost. What if 40mil wasn't enough. Would you offer him 50mil? 60mil? Where do you draw the line? If there's no line then you agree that 80mil is a reasonable number. If, on the other hand, you agree that there should be a line and that we shouldn't shed out max dollars for players like Felton or Reddick, then you agree that Petrie was doing his job by not going crazy and grossly overpaying these players (which is undoubtedly what we would have to do to get them to come to Sacramento over NY, Miami, or Orlando).

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Well, your stance is that we should've gone after FAs full force, at any cost.

Nope. I never said a thing about "at any cost". You're conjuring things up.

What if 40mil wasn't enough. Would you offer him 50mil? 60mil? Where do you draw the line?

I'd draw the line somewhere around 10% more than market value for players with similar stats.

If there's no line then you agree that 80mil is a reasonable number

I never said there was no line. You just (for some odd reason) assumed that.

If, on the other hand, you agree that there should be a line and that we shouldn't shed out max dollars for players like Felton or Reddick, then you agree that Petrie was doing his job by not going crazy and grossly overpaying these players

Of course I'd agree that not giving max contracts to mid level players would be indicative of him doing his job. Drawing attention to it though is just a combination red herring/straw man on your part because I never said anything that indicated I felt he should have done that. It's possible to have a debate without intentionally (or unintentionally?) distorting your opponent's position.

 

[Asaf]

Nope. I never said a thing about "at any cost". You're simply lying. I'd draw the line somewhere around 10% more than market value for players with similar stats. I never said there was no line. You just (for some odd reason) assumed that. Of course I'd agree that not giving max contracts to mid level players would be indicative of him doing his job. Drawing attention to it though is just a combination red herring/straw man on your part because I never said anything that indicated I felt he should have done that. It's possible to have a debate without intentionally (or unintentionally?) distorting your opponent's position.

Well, if you go back and read all the debates, every time someone brings up one of the many reasons why it was wise to not go after/overpay second-tier FAs, you repeat the same mantra that we still have to go after those free agents. When you ignore, the CBA, the fact that we are a small market team, the fact that FAs plain don't want to come to Sacramento, and the fact that overpaying free agents has historically jeopardized team's ability to get back into relevance, then yes, it is easy to assume that you think we should go after these FAs at all cost.

If you think that any FA, or any player for that matter, would be willing to come here over Miami, NYK, Orlando, Boston, or pretty much any other franchise at this moment, for a 10% increase in their pay, I am sorry but you are delusional. If 10% was the issue, you can be sure that GP would whip out the checkbook and recruit a couple of solid vets that can make us better and be mentors to our young ones. And you can also bet that almost everyone here would be on board with those moves. But I think the point of confusion was just uncovered in this post of yours, and this is why your stubbornness on this issue didn't make sense to most people here - you think that FAs would come here over title contenders for a slight increase in their salary, while the general consensus here and around the league is that it would take pretty much doubling these guys' salaries to get them to come here (and even then I can see quite a few of them saying no). Just like it took Maccabi 3.5mil to pay Carlos Arroyo to leave the NBA (where he was making less than 1mil) and come play in Europe (which was a huge mistake. An NBA scrub is a hyped Euroleague scrub), we would have to GROSSLY overpay FAs to get them to reject title contenders with real coaches, real arenas, and real basketball systems, to come to our franchise-in-limbo. Felton, Miller, and Reddick would LOL at your 10%.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

every time someone brings up one of the many reasons why it was wise to not go after/overpay second-tier FAs, you repeat the same mantra that we still have to go after those free agents.

Right, but pursuing free agents isn't tantamount overpaying them. Yet folks keep trying to conflate the two. That has no bearing on my belief that free agents should have been pursued, within reason, which does not include breaking the bank for a role player.

When you ignore, the CBA, the fact that we are a small market team, the fact that FAs plain don't want to come to Sacramento, and the fact that overpaying free agents has historically jeopardized team's ability to get back into relevance, then yes, it is easy to assume that you think we should go after these FAs at all cost.

I’ve not ignored a single one of those things and to be honest, I find it baffling where you got that idea that I was. None of those things preclude pursuing free agents. You’re just presenting a begging the question fallacy.

If you think that any FA, or any player for that matter, would be willing to come here over Miami, NYK, Orlando, Boston, or pretty much any other franchise at this moment, for a 10% increase in their pay, I am sorry but you are delusional.

Number of years is just as important in attracting a free agent as amount per year. Felton got a 2 year contract. Obviously a 5 year contract for the same amount, or 10% more per year would be a considerably more attractive offer.

If 10% was the issue, you can be sure that GP would whip out the checkbook and recruit a couple of solid vets that can make us better and be mentors to our young ones.

No I can’t be sure of that. In order to do that he’d have to have the green light to spend from the Maloofs, something he doesn’t have.

But I think the point of confusion was just uncovered in this post of yours, and this is why your stubbornness on this issue didn't make sense to most people here

There is no confusion, not on my part. Any confusion lies with those assuming that the reason I’d want The Kings to pursue a free agent...is just that I’m confused. As if the variables involved were rocket science, lol.

you think that FAs would come here over title contenders for a slight increase in their salary

Again, they might if they were getting several more years on their deal. To suggest that more years on a deal couldn’t be a difference maker is disingenuous.

while the general consensus here and around the league is that it would take pretty much doubling these guys' salaries to get them to come here

A, an appeal to consensus is just a form of argumentum ad populum, and B, I doubt you’ve done the required surveys/research to confirm that such a consensus even exists in the form you claim.

Felton, Miller, and Reddick would LOL at your 10%.

Well, since you’re apparently their spokesman, I’m sure you’re qualified to speak for them.

 

[matthew76]

I love it when people try SO hard to keep a debate going when everyone knows that neither side will agree at this point.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I love it when people try SO hard to keep a debate going when everyone knows that neither side will agree at this point.

I don't argue/debate for the purpose of getting folks to agree with me. I'd imagine debates where one party completely forgoes their own opinion and adopts the other party's opinion would be pretty rare. I see it more as simply exchanging ideas. If I feel someone has understood my position, generally I leave it at that. It's when someone appears to be misunderstanding and or distorting my position that I'll reiterate. It's in the interest of clarification though, not seeking agreement. And on the flip side of that, If I'm confused as to what someone's position is, I'll probably ask some questions to clear things up.

 

[SacKings7]

To the OP....????

We're a young team, we're not supposed to be making these kinds of trades. Yes, we suck right now but patience is key. Unless we wanna go the Celtics route and trade all our young players for veterans to win now, then it's important to hold on and see what we have first, or at least not have an itchy trigger-finger when it comes to deals like these.