Nocioni & Hawes Traded for Dalembert

[bajaden]

Bad move if you ask me, you don't know what Minny is up to. If they feel that we will pass on Johnson, they could make a deal with GS or Detroit for Johnson. What's the downside in just bringing Johnson in for a workout? Are they afraid they may actually like what they see?

I think one of the reasons the T Wolves want to workout Cousins is to hold us up. They probably have an idea we want Cousins. So if they can make the Kings nervous enough they might be able to squeeze something out of the Kings by not taking Cousins. Or taking Cousins and then doing a trade with the Kings for the 5th pick and something else, like a future pick for Cousins.

I'm pretty sure the T Wolves want Johnson, and it makes sense for them. He fills a big need. So in that regard, I agree with you that the Kings should bring in Johnson for a workout just to give the T Wolves a moment of pause.

 

[Bricklayer]

Also:

defense is not a position. It's a mindset of an entire squad. You do need the personnel who are dedicated to said effort, and are smart enough to be effective. You can't just plug in a defensive center and expect the entire team to be a great defensive TEAM. The kings may get better shot blocking around the basket, which is something they could use and have lacked, but this trade isn't going to turn this team into a defensive stalwart, so don't give your hopes up.

It will help, and defensive players can be catalysts. Dalembert probably not, but having a guy behind you who can erase your mistakes and clean the glass makes playing defense a lot easier for the rest of the team. More importantly you can't be a good defensive team without good defensive players. Maybe you still won't be, but it gives you a chance, and there are certain boxes you just have to checked off in order to do it. Shotblcoker/rim protecter is one of the very first.

 

[SacKings7]

(5) It makes me wonder about the Kings supposed interest in Monroe

Why deal Spencer Hawes and then use the 5th pick in the draft on a VERY similar player?

That's actually a really good point. I never thought of it that way before..

 

[Showtime]

granted, but what does that get you. I have seen the talent, but am more concerend wiht the apparent post play talent. What does a shooting/passing big man get you exactly?

It gets you a spread out floor so that a penetrating swingmen (gee, who could that possibly be?) has more room to operate instead of teams stacking the lanes. When the Kings spaced properly, nobody could stop Evans.

perkins is battling Bynum, who was battling Dwigth last year. before that it was Shaq, and Oberto/Duncan, and Big Ben Wallace and etc. etc. When has that soft shooting/passing center won anything?

I didn't say Hawes was a starter on a contending team. In fact, if that is your measuring stick, then everybody on the team outside Evans should get dumped. But this team isn't contending. Nor are they even in the playoffs. And I don't think having Sammy will bring them to the playoffs either. My point is, Hawes isn't worthless as that previous poster implied.

People say they are valuable because they are rare. But valuable for what? They don't win. Just having a rare skill that is of little value in the W/L column doesn't make you valuable.

There have been plenty of power bigs who never won either. That doesn't make the entire style worthless.

Good teams have squads of board munching shotblocking bigs up front ot control that middle. They have passers and shooters too, but they call them guards.

Again, there are plenty of good bigs who can pound who are on bad teams. It doesn't make an entire style good or bad. Good teams have good players. I guess Kaman, Kevin Love, Okafor, Marc Gasol, Brook Lopez, etc are worthless because they were on poor teams.

 

[bajaden]

Front office is high on Speights, and they should be. He looked great in the early season, on offense in particular. Like potential 20pt scorer great. A major reason why they canned Jordan was he would not play him.

I'm not as high on him as they are, but you may be right. I just haven't read much about him of late. I did watch quite a few of their games, and he didn't play in many of them. Part of the problem was that Johnson was determined to run the princeton offense. I guess Speights and most others, either didn't like, or were incapable of learning that particular offense.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

Spence on the radio right now, GP @ 4:20

 

[bajaden]

Wow, JT. English classes perhaps?

I believe he has a degree in journalism and wants to be in the media when he retires someday. He needs to remove "You know" from his bag of tricks. You know!!!

 

[funkykingston]

Also:

defense is not a position. It's a mindset of an entire squad. You do need the personnel who are dedicated to said effort, and are smart enough to be effective. You can't just plug in a defensive center and expect the entire team to be a great defensive TEAM. The kings may get better shot blocking around the basket, which is something they could use and have lacked, but this trade isn't going to turn this team into a defensive stalwart, so don't give your hopes up.

I have my hopes up because this moves improves (IMO) the weakest position of our defense last year. Dalembert will still struggle against the biggest and the strongest post players but at least we won't have the Pryzbilla's of the world feasting on easy looks inside next year.

Tyreke is a good defender and so is Greene and they will only get better. Casspi, Thompson, Landry, Brockman and Cisco all give great effort on the defensive end. Having a shot blocking/changing, rebounding center in the middle WILL improve team defense. As will growth of the young guys and hopefully whoever Petrie drafts and brings in through free agency.

More and more it looks like Geoff is building a big, tough and physical team that can rebound, defend and execute in the halfcourt.

And that's the best type of team to have to ensure success in the postseason.

The Kings have a substantial climb to get back to being a playoff contender, but I'm encouraged at the direction this team is taking. I just hope I still feel the same way on draft night.

 

[Showtime]

there are certain boxes you just have to checked off in order to do it. Shotblcoker/rim protecter is one of the very first.

This isn't true. The Rockets had a great defensive team with their frontline being: Scola, Landry, and Chuck Hayes, non of which are intimidating shot blockers. They were also short. But they were effective because the entire team played good defense, and their frontlines were smart and put in the effort and were physical.

The Jazz were also good defensively with Okur and Boozer, even though they didn't have an intimidating shot blocker. I could go on. Shot blocking is important to teams who don't have good defensive players, but it won't turn the team into a great defensive team.

 

[bajaden]

Well, you have to remember that tweets can only be 120 letters ( I think, something like that - I dont have a twitter ). So saying 'b' instead of 'be' has its advantages.

I was about to post the same thing. They've almost created a Twitter language. I read all the NBA scouts twits and they all do the same thing..

 

[bajaden]

Indeed...and I HOPE Cousins is still there, but I dont think it will be any a step back if we get Monroe, he's Sam Perkins 2.0, not too shabby.

You just insulted Perkins... Just kidding! Perkins was a lot more athletic coming out of college. I guess your refering to the Perkins later in his career that fell in love with shooting from the outside.

 

[bajaden]

I'm not a fan of this deal, even though I understand why it was made. Hawes was, IMO, gaining consistency and improving in the second half of the season. He was more aggressive on the glass, and on the defensive end. But, the reality is that this deal wasn't about Hawes, but about dumping Noc. Who knows, maybe the kings could make Hawes an offer when his contract comes up.

If you believe that the Kings will draft Cousins as the first option and Monroe as the second option, then Hawes becomes expendable with this trade. Not saying you couldn't have a roster with Cousins, Dalembert and Hawes. But the trade for Dalembert probably doesn't happen without Hawes being part of the deal.

As far Hawes, I was a fan of his and defended him many times. But I was starting to reach my limits. So I don't agree on his becoming more consistant. That was my biggest beef with him in a nutshell. I never, never was able to predict what he was going to do from one game to the next. He was the kind of player that drives coaches nuts. Look at Lamar Odom. Very talented player, but you never know which Odom is going to show up on any given night.

 

[bajaden]

Does this allow us to bring Landry off the bench, or do we still need him to start?

Something that will be worked out in training camp..

 

[Bricklayer]

You just insulted Perkins... Just kidding! Perkins was a lot more athletic coming out of college. I guess your refering to the Perkins later in his career that fell in love with shooting from the outside.

More importantly Perkins was one of the better defensive bigs of his era. That was what kept him viable, not the 3pt chucking. That was just him getting old and not being able to get any lift on his post moves anymore.

 

[Superman]

This isn't true. The Rockets had a great defensive team with their frontline being: Scola, Landry, and Chuck Hayes, non of which are intimidating shot blockers. They were also short. But they were effective because the entire team played good defense, and their frontlines were smart and put in the effort and were physical.

The Jazz were also good defensively with Okur and Boozer, even though they didn't have an intimidating shot blocker. I could go on. Shot blocking is important to teams who don't have good defensive players, but it won't turn the team into a great defensive team.

Neither of those teams are the ideal of what you want to have defensively, and both would have loved to have a legitimate shot blocker in the middle.

 

[Gary]

I like this deal...

Hawes is a guy that sits outside, and is kind of a "passing big". With Evans controlling the ball do we really need a center out there on the elbow waiting to distribute? That's why we got rid of Hawes.. It was a good move..

As for Nocioni, the guy isn't a west coast player. It was obvious watching him play. On Philly he would be able to give them some toughness at the 3, and some scrappy play at the 4.

Philly wants to get into the playoffs NEXT YEAR.. They have the 2nd pick.. They will take Turner, and they will have a good young back court in Holiday (who was the top ranked high school senior a couple years back). If Turner and Holiday could play together than watch out! Essentially they have two players in the back court that can handle, distribute and see the floor well.. Hawes would make sense is they keep Brand there and light a fire under his butt.. Philly COULD be a good east conference team if they players play up to their potential. Or they could be another 25 win team and Petrie could look like a genius for making this trade..

So all that said I think it was a good move.. Good because the days of trying to bring back Divac/Webber via the draft is gone. Also Nocioni is just not right for this team. Dalembert is in the contract year so we should expect no less than 10/10/2 and probably closer to 13/11/3 from him this year. My only fear is overpaying him after this year if the Maloofs fall in love with him.

BTW, I still want Cousins. But who knows.... Maybe Favors will fall? Maybe neither will and we will take Johnson. Maybe we moved Nocioni to give Johnson some PT.

 

[Gary]

More importantly Perkins was one of the better defensive bigs of his era. That was what kept him viable, not the 3pt chucking. That was just him getting old and not being able to get any lift on his post moves anymore.

SO TRUE!!! Whenever you see a big start taking more and more outside shots you know something is wrong..

My first taste of that was Lionel Simmons. when he had came back from that injury all he would do is shoot 3s, and that had never been a part of his game before the injury. Not that Simmons was technically a big, but the 3pt shot was never part of his game before the injury.

 

[Showtime]

Neither of those teams are the ideal of what you want to have defensively,

You don't want a better defensive team? The fact is, there are teams that have proven to be effective without a Ben Wallace type in the middle. And regardless of whether or not they are ideal to you, the fact is that they were BETTER than the kings, and were playoff teams that proved to be capable on the defensive end.

 

[Bricklayer]

This isn't true. The Rockets had a great defensive team with their frontline being: Scola, Landry, and Chuck Hayes, non of which are intimidating shot blockers. They were also short. But they were effective because the entire team played good defense, and their frontlines were smart and put in the effort and were physical.

The Jazz were also good defensively with Okur and Boozer, even though they didn't have an intimidating shot blocker. I could go on. Shot blocking is important to teams who don't have good defensive players, but it won't turn the team into a great defensive team.

Houston was a terrible defensive team last year -- people missed that because they hung on so tenaciously. But losing Yao as the anchor destroyed them -- they allowed 102.7ppg last year, and let teams shoot .475 against them. Consider that even we only allowed teams to shoot .469.

Utah was pretty strong last year defensively -- 11th -- but of course do in fact have a shotblocker. He just doesn't play center.

I have no idea why people continue to fight the shotblocker anchoring the defense phenomenon so hard. I am not even sure how results in the NBA are comprehensible without it. Its not a philsosophy, its science. Math. Physics. Whatever. Every once in a while a team can fight through it for a bit, often by slowing the game down and giving the illusion of betetr defense than they have. But the vast majority of elite defensive teams have an anchor inside. The 90s Bulls would be the closest thing to an exception, and yet they always kept a shotblocker in the lineup (Grant, Longley) and merely trotted out 3 former DPOYs.

 

[pshn80]

(5) It makes me wonder about the Kings supposed interest in Monroe

Why deal Spencer Hawes and then use the 5th pick in the draft on a VERY similar player?

Because he might be thought much better. Also, you couldn't get Dalembert today with Monroe. In other words, Monroe is still just as likely, maybe moreso, to be picked as before. Also, this trade makes getting a #5 SG or SF, if available of course, more likely. This trade really opens up possibilities in the #5 pick. Any of the first six or seven in the draft will work better with this trade - no matter what position.

 

[bajaden]

Also:

defense is not a position. It's a mindset of an entire squad. You do need the personnel who are dedicated to said effort, and are smart enough to be effective. You can't just plug in a defensive center and expect the entire team to be a great defensive TEAM. The kings may get better shot blocking around the basket, which is something they could use and have lacked, but this trade isn't going to turn this team into a defensive stalwart, so don't give your hopes up.

One player may not turn the entire team in a defensive juggernaut. But one player can certainly help. Especially an experienced one. Nothing is built overnight. Its done one block at a time. So yes, it may take time, but that doesn't mean you don't do it. The Kings lost 30 or so games last year by 8 points or less. In most of those games they were either leading or trailing by a few points with a couple of minutes to go. In those situations where a stop is crucial, that one shotblocking player can make a hell of a difference. And that difference might add up to 15 more wins. Mere speculation on my part. But the Kings already have some players that can play defense. Now they just need to put it all together.

 

[Chupacabra]

Also:

defense is not a position. It's a mindset of an entire squad. You do need the personnel who are dedicated to said effort, and are smart enough to be effective. You can't just plug in a defensive center and expect the entire team to be a great defensive TEAM. The kings may get better shot blocking around the basket, which is something they could use and have lacked, but this trade isn't going to turn this team into a defensive stalwart, so don't give your hopes up.

I feel the need to chime in. Center is the most important position defensively. A defensive center takes ALOT of defensive pressure off of the rest of the team. I dont expect the Kings to suddenly be a defensive stalwart, but drastically better than the past decade.

 

[Chupacabra]

Petrie discusses the trade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkGgyOG10ic

 

[bajaden]

It gets you a spread out floor so that a penetrating swingmen (gee, who could that possibly be?) has more room to operate instead of teams stacking the lanes. When the Kings spaced properly, nobody could stop Evans.



I didn't say Hawes was a starter on a contending team. In fact, if that is your measuring stick, then everybody on the team outside Evans should get dumped. But this team isn't contending. Nor are they even in the playoffs. And I don't think having Sammy will bring them to the playoffs either. My point is, Hawes isn't worthless as that previous poster implied.



There have been plenty of power bigs who never won either. That doesn't make the entire style worthless.



Again, there are plenty of good bigs who can pound who are on bad teams. It doesn't make an entire style good or bad. Good teams have good players. I guess Kaman, Kevin Love, Okafor, Marc Gasol, Brook Lopez, etc are worthless because they were on poor teams.

Bricky certainly doesn't need any help from me, but I think his point is that seldom, if ever, (racking my brain for a team that won) has a team with a passing center that plays at the top of the key, and isn't a post player won a championship. That most teams that have won have had centers that are post players and pretty good defensive players.

Your return arguement that a lot of post type centers have never won a championship, is like me saying that milk must cause cancer because everyone thats ever had cancer has drank milk at some point. Pretty hard to miss that target.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

Dalembert on the radio in about 30 min.

 

[Tetsujin]

Bricky certainly doesn't need any help from me, but I think his point is that seldom, if ever, (racking my brain for a team that won) has a team with a passing center that plays at the top of the key, and isn't a post player won a championship. That most teams that have won have had centers that are post players and pretty good defensive players.

Your return arguement that a lot of post type centers have never won a championship, is like me saying that milk must cause cancer because everyone thats ever had cancer has drank milk at some point. Pretty hard to miss that target.

Blazers with Walton.

 

[bajaden]

More importantly Perkins was one of the better defensive bigs of his era. That was what kept him viable, not the 3pt chucking. That was just him getting old and not being able to get any lift on his post moves anymore.

Well said! Gotta give credit to players that find a way to extend their careers. I guess people forget when Perkins played at NC.

 

[Chupacabra]

Because he might be thought much better. Also, you couldn't get Dalembert today with Monroe. In other words, Monroe is still just as likely, maybe moreso, to be picked as before. Also, this trade makes getting a #5 SG or SF, if available of course, more likely. This trade really opens up possibilities in the #5 pick. Any of the first six or seven in the draft will work better with this trade - no matter what position.

I also find this to be lacking a certain amount of logic. Flat out, if Demarcus Cousins is there the Kings are going to pick him. Do you think the FO is really weighing Monroe against Cousins on a pendulum scale as if theyre not sure who they should pick? Give me a break.

 

[bajaden]

Because he might be thought much better. Also, you couldn't get Dalembert today with Monroe. In other words, Monroe is still just as likely, maybe moreso, to be picked as before. Also, this trade makes getting a #5 SG or SF, if available of course, more likely. This trade really opens up possibilities in the #5 pick. Any of the first six or seven in the draft will work better with this trade - no matter what position.

Not sure I follow your logic. We had one legitimate center before this trade, therefore in need of another center. We have one legitimate center after this trade, therefore still in need of another center. I don't see where this trade changes anything as far as the draft goes.

 

[sdballer]

Petrie discusses the trade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkGgyOG10ic

Nice to see Geoff suggesting we aren't planning on trading the pick at this point and that this doesn't impact the draft.