Think cumulative and the Kings do improve. With Webber back the first question even his detractors have to aks is are the Kings better with a 4,5 of Webber Miller or Miller Vlade... upgrade at center. If you are looking at team needs then Ostertag from thebenceh actualy makes more sense than Vlade from the bench. But one of the bigest upgrades has gone unmentiond and that is the return of Songolia. Darisu showed a lot of hustle, heart and tallent. Weber's extended absence last season gave him time andexperience to develop and I for one am very happy with the way taht development went. So now comming from the bench instead of a disgruntled and washed up T Mass we have an up and comming Songolia... big improvemnt. Bluth may not prove to be an adequate bu for Pedja but lets see who gets that last spot before we freak out.
NBA Beat: Grading the off-season
- Thread starter VF21
- Start date
I would actually put y'alls offseason grade at a B, because I believe that the aquisition of Big Greg Ostertag was a hugely fortuitous steal for the Kings.
Before things are said and done, I wouldn't be surprised if Big Greg absolutely thrives in Sacramento, while doing much to fix the defensive rebounding problems that y'alls Kings suffered from last year, providing a strong shot-blocking presence that the 03-04 Kings were wholly lacking, and is able to join with Brad Miller in a physically tough "Tag Team" tandem that will end up becoming the pivot upon which your playoff hopes might eventually turn...
Before things are said and done, I wouldn't be surprised if Big Greg absolutely thrives in Sacramento, while doing much to fix the defensive rebounding problems that y'alls Kings suffered from last year, providing a strong shot-blocking presence that the 03-04 Kings were wholly lacking, and is able to join with Brad Miller in a physically tough "Tag Team" tandem that will end up becoming the pivot upon which your playoff hopes might eventually turn...
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I have a long, hard day at work. I pretty much fall out cold until 9:30 after I get home. My dinner is a hastily prepared hamburger and BBQ chips. I'm tired, but I know I won't be able to fall asleep until 2 am so I'm going to be tired tomorrow too. All that and I have to read the Lakers' offseason moves being compared favorably to the Wizards adding Samaki Walker? 
Gargamel said:
I have a long, hard day at work. I pretty much fall out cold until 9:30 after I get home. My dinner is a hastily prepared hamburger and BBQ chips. I'm tired, but I know I won't be able to fall asleep until 2 am so I'm going to be tired tomorrow too. All that and I have to read the Lakers' offseason moves being compared favorably to the Wizards adding Samaki Walker?
Thank you, Gargy!!
Songaila is an Eduardo Najera type, which is nice to have. My concern, however, is the possibility -- if not inevitability -- that Webber goes out for an extended period of time. Last year, the combination of Vlade and Miller worked better than anyone had a right to expect. My concern is that, in the absence of Webber, a Miller-Songaila or Miller-Ostertag combination wouldn't be as effective. Songaila and Ostertag are valuable players for their effort and hustle, but whether they are skilled enough to fit in with the rest of the starters is uncertain. Miller's surprising passing ability and his touch allowed him to move into the lineup without the Kings missing a beat.
As I've said before, it's great that the Kings have some young players that may have what it takes to make it in the NBA. My concern is that we're counting too much on Kevin Edwards being able to be a real factor this season. Yes, he had a great summer league. But he was the 26th pick in the draft. The recent history of 26th picks is a rogue's gallery, with the exception of Samuel Dalembert in 2001: Ndudi Ebi, John Salmons, Vonteego Cummings, Sam Jacobson. Maybe Edwards will end up being more impactful than Jerome Williams (the 26th pick in '96) or Charlie Ward ('94); I sure hope so, but it might be a couple of years before it happens.
As for Kevin Martin and David Bluthenthal, who knows? Second-round picks are almost always a crapshoot, and I have no idea whether any Israeli League players have made a meaningful impact in the NBA. It's true that the backup 3 isn't going to get a lot of playing time behind Peja -- unless Peja rolls an ankle or catches the flu or whatever.
The point is, you never need fire insurance ... until you have a fire. That's why I don't think the 12th roster spot is a throwaway. The Kings need a real player. The top 7 spots are fine, and Songaila has certainly proven himself NBA-worthy. But, please, Geoff, get someone who either can swing from big guard to small forward or play both forward spots.
As I've said before, it's great that the Kings have some young players that may have what it takes to make it in the NBA. My concern is that we're counting too much on Kevin Edwards being able to be a real factor this season. Yes, he had a great summer league. But he was the 26th pick in the draft. The recent history of 26th picks is a rogue's gallery, with the exception of Samuel Dalembert in 2001: Ndudi Ebi, John Salmons, Vonteego Cummings, Sam Jacobson. Maybe Edwards will end up being more impactful than Jerome Williams (the 26th pick in '96) or Charlie Ward ('94); I sure hope so, but it might be a couple of years before it happens.
As for Kevin Martin and David Bluthenthal, who knows? Second-round picks are almost always a crapshoot, and I have no idea whether any Israeli League players have made a meaningful impact in the NBA. It's true that the backup 3 isn't going to get a lot of playing time behind Peja -- unless Peja rolls an ankle or catches the flu or whatever.
The point is, you never need fire insurance ... until you have a fire. That's why I don't think the 12th roster spot is a throwaway. The Kings need a real player. The top 7 spots are fine, and Songaila has certainly proven himself NBA-worthy. But, please, Geoff, get someone who either can swing from big guard to small forward or play both forward spots.
I deserve the jab for Kevin Ewards. Yikes. Needed more coffee, I guess.
But why can't you build a team on the "what is someone gets injured" premise? Given the Kings' injury history -- particularly CWebb's -- you certainly have to take that into account in putting the roster together. I hate to say this (knock on wood) but you almost have to plan for CWebb missing 20 games at some point. And, as I said, when that day comes, are you satisfied with the Miller-Ostertag-Songaila troika being able to carry the Kings through?
It's a basically a question of faith: whether you believe Kevin Martin-Edwards, Ricky Minard and David Bluthenthal can be counted on. My contention is that if you, as a team, have championship aspirations, you shouldn't count on low draft picks AND you should be prepared to cover significant injuries.
I'm not talking about rebuilding the roster or busting the piggy bank, just bringing in someone with an NBA resume with a minimum salary for that 12th roster spot. Maybe it's Rodney White, if he doesn't end up in prison, or Marcus Fizer or Jon Barry. Maybe the Kings are healthy all year, Kevin Martin-Edwards is a stud and depth is never an issue. If that's the case, the Kings certain can win a championship. But history shows we can't count on any of those things.
But why can't you build a team on the "what is someone gets injured" premise? Given the Kings' injury history -- particularly CWebb's -- you certainly have to take that into account in putting the roster together. I hate to say this (knock on wood) but you almost have to plan for CWebb missing 20 games at some point. And, as I said, when that day comes, are you satisfied with the Miller-Ostertag-Songaila troika being able to carry the Kings through?
It's a basically a question of faith: whether you believe Kevin Martin-Edwards, Ricky Minard and David Bluthenthal can be counted on. My contention is that if you, as a team, have championship aspirations, you shouldn't count on low draft picks AND you should be prepared to cover significant injuries.
I'm not talking about rebuilding the roster or busting the piggy bank, just bringing in someone with an NBA resume with a minimum salary for that 12th roster spot. Maybe it's Rodney White, if he doesn't end up in prison, or Marcus Fizer or Jon Barry. Maybe the Kings are healthy all year, Kevin Martin-Edwards is a stud and depth is never an issue. If that's the case, the Kings certain can win a championship. But history shows we can't count on any of those things.
History also shows a signifigant injury to our core during the Play Offs means that 12th man isn't likely to be the one to carry us over the top. I see where you are coming from, but there isn't anyone out there to add with that last roster spot who could carry the team in that instance. Rodney White is the best of lot for our needs, IMO. JB signed with Atlanta.
by the way
I'm getting so old that I: A) remember Kevin Edwards and B) confused him with the Kings' draft pick.
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=EDWARKE01
I'm getting so old that I: A) remember Kevin Edwards and B) confused him with the Kings' draft pick.
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=EDWARKE01
Kingsgurl pretty much said what I would have said, but I will add that - for better or worse - our hopes and dreams are on our starters. If Webber goes out for an extended period of time, we're pretty much toast. But we're not alone. I cannot think of another NBA team with a decent PF who wouldn't also be up bleep creek if their starter went out. At the elite level, you simply can't expect to backfill behind All-Star players with any degree of confidence that the backup will, in fact, be able to step into the starting slot on a regular basis. That's why they're backups and not starters.
I think Petrie may, in fact, bring in another big to fill that last slot but it's gonna be the 12th man... he'd better be good at towel-waving.
I think Petrie may, in fact, bring in another big to fill that last slot but it's gonna be the 12th man... he'd better be good at towel-waving.
If Garnett goes down, the Wolves are toast. Same for Duncan and the Spurs or Dirk and the Mavs. The difference is, those teams have no reason to anticipate that their stars will miss 20 games or so; the Kings have every reason to anticipate that. I'm not knocking Chris, but there's reason for concern.
Also, I've read, all those teams are involved to some degree in the pursuit of Karl Malone as insurance. They're being proactive because they intend to go after a championship. Again, I'm not asking for the moon, just for a bit more of a comfort zone.
Also, I've read, all those teams are involved to some degree in the pursuit of Karl Malone as insurance. They're being proactive because they intend to go after a championship. Again, I'm not asking for the moon, just for a bit more of a comfort zone.
Didn't see your post before. Yeah, I realized about 30 seconds after posting that JB has signed. He's not exactly what we need, anyhow, but I always liked the guy.
I don't think the 12th roster spot necessarily equates to your 12th man. The unclaimed spot could, in fact, be the 8th or 9th man, depending on who it is. In my mind, David Bluthenthal and Ricky Minard have to be your 11th and 12th men.
You're right: Whoever the Kings get with their remaining spot isn't going to carry the team in the playoffs in the event of injury. But he may help the team gain homecourt advantage by being able to pick up some slack during the regular season if that's when an injury occurs, and if homecourt isn't crucial, it's certainly helpful.
I don't think the 12th roster spot necessarily equates to your 12th man. The unclaimed spot could, in fact, be the 8th or 9th man, depending on who it is. In my mind, David Bluthenthal and Ricky Minard have to be your 11th and 12th men.
You're right: Whoever the Kings get with their remaining spot isn't going to carry the team in the playoffs in the event of injury. But he may help the team gain homecourt advantage by being able to pick up some slack during the regular season if that's when an injury occurs, and if homecourt isn't crucial, it's certainly helpful.
Good post.
Everybody always liked Jon Barry. Not exactly what we need, but I'd like to have him anyways. He'd be this year's version of AP, but he has a history of playing big in big games, so it would be somewhat of an upgrade. Alas, he's signed with Atlanta.
Good point. I agree that Ricky and Bluth should be #11 and #12, respectively. But I honestly don't think there's anyone available who would fill that 8th spot (9th spot is as good as bench detail, if Adelman's history has any bearing on the situation) and make enough difference in the event that Webb misses extended time. Rodney White isn't going to provide any insurance if Webber goes down, and I don't think anyone else on the market would do so either. Not anyone that we can afford or that would fit into our system.
If Webber goes down, we're not going to be as good up front as we were at the beginning of last season - one of the disappointments of Vlade signing with LA. At the same time, though, we can't try to assemble a team built around the premise of Webber missing 20 games. I don't think it's practical, since there aren't many free agents available who can fill that void or fit in to keep the offense running like it did last season with Brad and Vlade.
All that having been said, I'm still anxious to see what the Kings front office does with that 12th roster spot. I'd like to see Rodney White brought in to back Peja up (legal issues withstanding) or see someone brought in who can play 4/5. But I don't think our season hangs on our 8-12 players. Our front 6 are the most important players come April and May, and if they are healthy and ready to go, we have a good shot at winning a championship.
Everybody always liked Jon Barry. Not exactly what we need, but I'd like to have him anyways. He'd be this year's version of AP, but he has a history of playing big in big games, so it would be somewhat of an upgrade. Alas, he's signed with Atlanta.
Good point. I agree that Ricky and Bluth should be #11 and #12, respectively. But I honestly don't think there's anyone available who would fill that 8th spot (9th spot is as good as bench detail, if Adelman's history has any bearing on the situation) and make enough difference in the event that Webb misses extended time. Rodney White isn't going to provide any insurance if Webber goes down, and I don't think anyone else on the market would do so either. Not anyone that we can afford or that would fit into our system.
If Webber goes down, we're not going to be as good up front as we were at the beginning of last season - one of the disappointments of Vlade signing with LA. At the same time, though, we can't try to assemble a team built around the premise of Webber missing 20 games. I don't think it's practical, since there aren't many free agents available who can fill that void or fit in to keep the offense running like it did last season with Brad and Vlade.
All that having been said, I'm still anxious to see what the Kings front office does with that 12th roster spot. I'd like to see Rodney White brought in to back Peja up (legal issues withstanding) or see someone brought in who can play 4/5. But I don't think our season hangs on our 8-12 players. Our front 6 are the most important players come April and May, and if they are healthy and ready to go, we have a good shot at winning a championship.
I agree with what you just said. But I have a feeling that the chances of Webber being injured are a little bit lesser than what all of us are anitcipating. Because he has been working on it for more than a year. The chances are always there after such a major injury but I think that he should be all right this season. A little bit slower maybe but he should be allright.
Just eager to see the new season to start.
GO Kings!!!!!!!!!!!
Just eager to see the new season to start.
GO Kings!!!!!!!!!!!
Good point about Adelman going beyond 8 spots. I wonder how much of a factor that is when the Kings court free agents.
I realize guys like White and Fizer don't REPLACE Webber, but paired with Songaila, they may help you hold the fort in the event of an injury. And in the Western Conference this season, as has been the case lately, 1 or 2 losses can be the difference between the 1st and 2nd or 4th and 5th seed, so I'm looking for any edge I can get with that last roster spot.
Make it our front 7, and I'm with you.
I realize guys like White and Fizer don't REPLACE Webber, but paired with Songaila, they may help you hold the fort in the event of an injury. And in the Western Conference this season, as has been the case lately, 1 or 2 losses can be the difference between the 1st and 2nd or 4th and 5th seed, so I'm looking for any edge I can get with that last roster spot.
Make it our front 7, and I'm with you.
Generally, we should look only at ourselves. What happens to other teams is not going to change our situation. We were very deep team able to play trough injuries. Guess what - we lose Miller or Webber for longer period - we are in trouble. A trouble that this franchise has not been since before 1998. The scary thing is that we depend on a player that has not played 70+ games in a while and that has an injury which does not ever heal to 100 %. I expect major roster changes before PO starts but still it will be very nerve wrecking season. Every time a player hits the floor - fans will stop breathing for a moment.
I've had the chance to go into the Kings' office at Arco Arena some years ago and I saw a wall covered with the rosters of every team in the NBA, as well as available free agents, recently retired players, etc. The names on the rosters were color-coded; something to do with free-agents-to-be, base-year compensation players, etc. I'm pretty sure that Geoff Petrie and the rest of the front office pay attention to what other teams do in excruciating detail. If Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett breaks his leg, it absolutely changes the Kings' situation with respect to playoff seeding and, at the extreme end, maybe is the catalyst for a roster move.
Is your feeling that internal dissention will force a trade? Are you merely playing a hunch, or do you have inside info?
As long as none of the players stop breathing ... ;-)
Is your feeling that internal dissention will force a trade? Are you merely playing a hunch, or do you have inside info?
As long as none of the players stop breathing ... ;-)
I'm not yet putting Ostertag in there... yet. I'm waiting to see how much he actually helps us. I expect him to do a good job in the minutes he gets, but I'll hold off on placing any expectations on him.
But the point still stands. Our major players have to be healthy come April/May/June in order for us to win a championship.
But the point still stands. Our major players have to be healthy come April/May/June in order for us to win a championship.
Fair enough. I'm on record -- at least I was until the server died -- as saying 'Tags' physical play and shot-blocking ability will be helpful. He's big and has been in a lot of meaningful games. If he can survive Jerry Sloan's verbal onslaughts, he ought to have some toughness.
Let's remember the Kings' collective health in our prayers.
Let's remember the Kings' collective health in our prayers.
Its brother
I think with the relationship Tag has had with Sloan, he will appretiate Adelman's coaching style where he will find a little bit of leeway. And wont have him breathing down on his neck all the time.
And definitely his physical play would be really helpful not only in the terms of his playing but defensive play like that has a tendency to rub off on other players as well. So I think that it might as well have a cummulative effect on the entire team's play and the entire team may step up on the defensive end and be more physical.
Amen....... lets pray for their collective health.
I think with the relationship Tag has had with Sloan, he will appretiate Adelman's coaching style where he will find a little bit of leeway. And wont have him breathing down on his neck all the time.
And definitely his physical play would be really helpful not only in the terms of his playing but defensive play like that has a tendency to rub off on other players as well. So I think that it might as well have a cummulative effect on the entire team's play and the entire team may step up on the defensive end and be more physical.
Amen....... lets pray for their collective health.
I, for one think that other than our 6 main players, Ostertag might turn out to be the most important player on the team. With a new environment (I don't mean to say that he was not at all at fault in Utah) where he might be more appretiated than he was in Utah, he might actually step up his game and give a major boast to the KINGS.