NBA beat: Free agency likely is Peja's big bank shot
- Thread starter KingKong
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Because it's counterfeit, that's why. AC Green was an All-Star one year, too... My point being that you're making entirely too much out of what is an utterly meaningless footnote in history; the guy finished in a distant fourth place.
He wasn't an MVP candidate: in fact, he only got one first-place vote; that makes him a slightly better MVP "candidate" than PJ Brown.
He wasn't an MVP candidate: in fact, he only got one first-place vote; that makes him a slightly better MVP "candidate" than PJ Brown.
8 years for me!
is anybody else kinda bored of people questioning what a "real fan" is. what the hell is that supposed to mean? a fan can be someone who is critical of the players they root for, because that fan is someone who wants what's best for the team. a fan can also be someone who coddles the players they root for, and claims they can do no wrong. i choose to identify with the former, but i dont question the latter's level of fan-ness. i question their santiy.
is anybody else kinda bored of people questioning what a "real fan" is. what the hell is that supposed to mean? a fan can be someone who is critical of the players they root for, because that fan is someone who wants what's best for the team. a fan can also be someone who coddles the players they root for, and claims they can do no wrong. i choose to identify with the former, but i dont question the latter's level of fan-ness. i question their santiy.
Padrino said:
8 years for me!
is anybody else kinda bored of people questioning what a "real fan" is. what the hell is that supposed to mean? a fan can be someone who is critical of the players they root for, because that fan is someone who wants what's best for the team. a fan can also be someone who coddles the players they root for, and claims they can do no wrong. i choose to identify with the former, but i dont question the latter's level of fan-ness. i question their santiy.
is anybody else kinda bored of people questioning what a "real fan" is. what the hell is that supposed to mean? a fan can be someone who is critical of the players they root for, because that fan is someone who wants what's best for the team. a fan can also be someone who coddles the players they root for, and claims they can do no wrong. i choose to identify with the former, but i dont question the latter's level of fan-ness. i question their santiy.
When the Beatles were at their peak, there were the fans who loved the intracacies of their music, the haunting melodies, the unusual chord progressions, and the totally unique lyrics. They were fans. Then, there were the screaming hordes of young women who screamed and cried at the mere sight of their idols, who threw themselves and/or their undergarments on the stage, and who couldn't tell a basic C chord from a D minor 7th. They, too, were fans...
good analogy. i consider myself a beatles fan as well.
i think all the argument surrounding peja at this particular time is nonsensical. we should all support him while he wears the kings jersey this coming season. but we should also be VERY critical of him, because this year absolutely NEEDS to be his "breakout" year, even better than 2 seasons ago, both for his sake and the team's. no more excuses. no more bull****. time to leave it all on the court.
i think all the argument surrounding peja at this particular time is nonsensical. we should all support him while he wears the kings jersey this coming season. but we should also be VERY critical of him, because this year absolutely NEEDS to be his "breakout" year, even better than 2 seasons ago, both for his sake and the team's. no more excuses. no more bull****. time to leave it all on the court.
Bottom line. Peja is soft. Mentally more than physically. He does'nt consistantly shoot well. Now Nowitski, there is a pure shooter like they call Peja. That guy RARELY has an off night. He's on waaaaay more than not. He puts up mid 20's to 30's without thinking about it. Peja's shooting has become so inconsistant it isn't funny.
What he did 4 years ago means squat today.
What he did 4 years ago means squat today.
I agree! As a person, Peja is someone who I probably would have more in common with then some of these players that live for the game and eat, sleep, and breathe NBA basketball. Work isn't my top priority either. BUT, when you are looking at paying a max contract for someone you would hope that they have the passion and drive that makes basketball their top priority, their obsession, and basically, yes, what they live for. Because that kind of attitude is what can take them to the top.
After seeing Dirk's playoffs, I'm not willing to go out on a limb for him right now as getting it done either.
But in any case, this dissatisfaction is largely situational. Its attached to $$ and role. If Peja was the #3 guy to Shaq and Wade in Miami he wouldn't be any less soft, but it wouldn't be nearly as damning and you'd be damn excited to have him in that role. Tremendous team in that case, and mutliple other studs to take care of the winning. If Peja was set to earn an MLE contract Peja wouldn't be any less soft, but for that price you would have one of the true bargains in the NBA, soft or not (and no, I'm not arguing Peja is an MLE player, quite the opposite). And while I might still trade him to bring back a star who could truly lead us in return because we have few other tradeable assets, there would certainly be a lot less pressure to trade him because you were getting good bang for your buck and would still have money to go get the guy or guys you needed to really put you over the top. But now you take Peja, and he's not a #3, but a #1, and he's not an MLE, he's a max player, and you have abruptly entered the realm of parody. A player who is a brilliant acquisition as the third best player on your team for the MLE becomes a severely overpaid player incapable of carrying you when it matters as a #1 at max, and with a $$ deal that actually chokes your ability to acquire a player who can do those things for you. Same Peja. Same limitations. But a radically different level of concern over them.
Now is that Peja's fault? Maybe, maybe not. It is ofttimes hard to separate Peja's wishes from those of his rabid boosters. His worst boosters have always wanted him to be a #1 and to get paid the max almost regardless of whether it is good for the team or not. If that is also Peja's desire -- if he has pushed to be a #1, to get paid the max, to pretend to be "the man", then it is ABSOLUTLEY Peja's fault. He is taking what he has not earned with his play, does not deserve with his work. May even, under such a scenario, have tanked a season to engineer the removal of his main competition for the spot. If THAT's true, then Peja deserves every last ounce of heat he receives until such time as he sucks it up, grows a pair, and starts playing, and working, and leading, like a #1 player actually worth the max.
Now if, on the other hand this is more or less an accident. If Peja would welcome getting a real #1 in here ahead of him to take the load off. If he's going to ask for the max and get it, but because that's the market not because of greed and ego, if he knows what he truly is and is not, and is at peace with that, then no, its not Peja's fault. But the problems it poses are just as real for the Kings as if it were. In that scenario the fault lies with a front office irrationally enamored of Peja for non-basketball related reasons, and perhaps it lies with some of his most rabid boosters for falsely ascribing aggressive and ugly motives to their favorite player because of their own need for him to succeed. And in some ways that makes it actually WORSE for the Kings, because then it means that in all liklihood you have a front office unwilling to take action to correct things.
In either case, the Kings, the franchise, the fans, have a major problem now with what to do with Peja, and its still a problem whether its Peja's fault or not. On the court, there are still other ways to get better other than trading Peja, but off the court, financially, that looming max really puts the Kings over a barrel. You do it, and it may end up defining the Kings' financial situation for the next half decade because its going to be extraordinarily hard to get anybody to trade you value for an aging and maxed out Peja, and that's assuming he stays relatively healthy and does not start to fade with age. And that's a 100% legit concern, and its got nothgin to do with Peja good guy, or Peja bad guy. Its Peja = $15mil #1option??
But in any case, this dissatisfaction is largely situational. Its attached to $$ and role. If Peja was the #3 guy to Shaq and Wade in Miami he wouldn't be any less soft, but it wouldn't be nearly as damning and you'd be damn excited to have him in that role. Tremendous team in that case, and mutliple other studs to take care of the winning. If Peja was set to earn an MLE contract Peja wouldn't be any less soft, but for that price you would have one of the true bargains in the NBA, soft or not (and no, I'm not arguing Peja is an MLE player, quite the opposite). And while I might still trade him to bring back a star who could truly lead us in return because we have few other tradeable assets, there would certainly be a lot less pressure to trade him because you were getting good bang for your buck and would still have money to go get the guy or guys you needed to really put you over the top. But now you take Peja, and he's not a #3, but a #1, and he's not an MLE, he's a max player, and you have abruptly entered the realm of parody. A player who is a brilliant acquisition as the third best player on your team for the MLE becomes a severely overpaid player incapable of carrying you when it matters as a #1 at max, and with a $$ deal that actually chokes your ability to acquire a player who can do those things for you. Same Peja. Same limitations. But a radically different level of concern over them.
Now is that Peja's fault? Maybe, maybe not. It is ofttimes hard to separate Peja's wishes from those of his rabid boosters. His worst boosters have always wanted him to be a #1 and to get paid the max almost regardless of whether it is good for the team or not. If that is also Peja's desire -- if he has pushed to be a #1, to get paid the max, to pretend to be "the man", then it is ABSOLUTLEY Peja's fault. He is taking what he has not earned with his play, does not deserve with his work. May even, under such a scenario, have tanked a season to engineer the removal of his main competition for the spot. If THAT's true, then Peja deserves every last ounce of heat he receives until such time as he sucks it up, grows a pair, and starts playing, and working, and leading, like a #1 player actually worth the max.
Now if, on the other hand this is more or less an accident. If Peja would welcome getting a real #1 in here ahead of him to take the load off. If he's going to ask for the max and get it, but because that's the market not because of greed and ego, if he knows what he truly is and is not, and is at peace with that, then no, its not Peja's fault. But the problems it poses are just as real for the Kings as if it were. In that scenario the fault lies with a front office irrationally enamored of Peja for non-basketball related reasons, and perhaps it lies with some of his most rabid boosters for falsely ascribing aggressive and ugly motives to their favorite player because of their own need for him to succeed. And in some ways that makes it actually WORSE for the Kings, because then it means that in all liklihood you have a front office unwilling to take action to correct things.
In either case, the Kings, the franchise, the fans, have a major problem now with what to do with Peja, and its still a problem whether its Peja's fault or not. On the court, there are still other ways to get better other than trading Peja, but off the court, financially, that looming max really puts the Kings over a barrel. You do it, and it may end up defining the Kings' financial situation for the next half decade because its going to be extraordinarily hard to get anybody to trade you value for an aging and maxed out Peja, and that's assuming he stays relatively healthy and does not start to fade with age. And that's a 100% legit concern, and its got nothgin to do with Peja good guy, or Peja bad guy. Its Peja = $15mil #1option??
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Apparently, one of the rules of Artest's suspension was that he couldn't go into Conseco until the Pacers' season was officially over.
For those of your questioning Artests' desire to play basketball:
At midnight, after the Pistons had defeated the Pacers in the conference semifinals, a black SUV swerved into the Conseco parking lot, nearly hitting a few people. After it parked, Artest walked out, ripped his shirt off, and walked barefoot into the arena.
For those of your questioning Artests' desire to play basketball:
At midnight, after the Pistons had defeated the Pacers in the conference semifinals, a black SUV swerved into the Conseco parking lot, nearly hitting a few people. After it parked, Artest walked out, ripped his shirt off, and walked barefoot into the arena.
Its so difficult for fans to seperate the business side of sports from the emotional draw. I know it was a different situation, but I fought the same issues when Webber got his big contract. Any time you make that kind of a committment to one person its a huge risk, maybe even more with Peja because of the type of player he is. My only hope is that Geoff Petrie can lay any emotional investment he may have in Peja aside when he has to make that decision.
Thanks for trying to put that into perpective, I couldn't agree with you more.
Thanks for trying to put that into perpective, I couldn't agree with you more.
At the end of the day I just don't see how any team can offer a max deal to a one tool player and remain a contender. If you're going to bind yourself financially for such a length of time, the player you're investing in has to do more for your team than just shoot the ball.
Thinking of successful teams with max guys (Miami, SA, the Kings of old, etc.) their franchise players score, rebound, block...lead. Unless you've got Paul Allen pockets, a team with a max player has to fill a large part of the squad with role players. Folks, a lethal shooter and some spare parts ain't gonna get it done.
Thinking of successful teams with max guys (Miami, SA, the Kings of old, etc.) their franchise players score, rebound, block...lead. Unless you've got Paul Allen pockets, a team with a max player has to fill a large part of the squad with role players. Folks, a lethal shooter and some spare parts ain't gonna get it done.
In all honesty I think the Kings and Geoff Petrie are in a good position as far as Peja goes. Webber and Divac are gone Peja has a whole season to prove what he can do as the main guy on the team. Sure Miller and Bibby are here but Peja is every bit as much of the "first option" as those guys are so its his time to shine or not. If he "leads" and shows that he can carry his team when it matters, I don't see a problem with giving him a max contract, if he doesn't then don't offer him the max. The problem that arises is that this is all subjective and different people have different ideas of what "leadership" is and so on. Either way, I'm rooting for Peja to be that guy, don't know if he has what it takes and haven't really seen him show that he does, but I hope that he's it.
GO Peja! and the rest of the Kings too!
GO Peja! and the rest of the Kings too!
Again, entering next season with Peja not signed is asking for complete disaster. The list of teams that will be under the cap next year enough to make a run at Peja includes not only the normal 90lb weaklings, but also a number of heavy hitters (Miami (my Shaq, Wade, Peja lineup was not just a figment, it could happen) and Chicago (with his old coach) for instance). That's just putting the whole damn franchise at risk, and for what? If Peja walks, and we get nothng back, that's it. You'll take years to recover from a blow like that. In two years you would have lost Webb, Vlade, Doug and Peja for a total return of Corliss, KT and Skinner. Game, set, match.
It doesn't MATTER what Peja does next year, barring some major injury its clear now after recent events he WILL be getting the max. This instinct to give it just one more year and one more year sounds to me like just a fear of committment one way or the other. Let's keep on putting off either the breakup or the marriage for as long as possible. But now that procrastination comes with a potential cost that the franchise simply cannot afford.
If there was any realistic difference in the money -- if some result next year might give you a chance to resign Peja at $9 mil per rather than $15 mil, then maybe. Maybe. You'd still be taking a hell of a risk, but maybe. But the moeny isn't going to change. So we are not sitting here trying to find a way to pay Peja less. Nor realistically are we sitting around tryign to determine whether Peja will be paid the max. He will. ALL we are doing is trying to go for yet one more year of procrastination on judging Peja as a player. As if 7 years is not enough. No, we need an 8th, even if it means risking disaster for the franchise.
Its time for us to suck it up and make a call here. To quit sitting aorund and trying to find some way, anyway, that Peja will come out and make us feel better about keeping him at the max. Peja is going to get his $15 mil/yr contract extension either now, or 12 months from now. Pay him or trade him. Or pay him AND trade him. But this don't pay and don't trade him thing is just avoiding the inevitable, and putting us at risk in the process. Its been 7 years, 500 or so games. There is no need for us to wait oh yet one more 82 game season when at the end of it the money is going to be the same, and all we are going to decide is the same thing we are deciding right now -- the very simple and direct quesion of whether to keep Peja at $15 mil per or not.
It doesn't MATTER what Peja does next year, barring some major injury its clear now after recent events he WILL be getting the max. This instinct to give it just one more year and one more year sounds to me like just a fear of committment one way or the other. Let's keep on putting off either the breakup or the marriage for as long as possible. But now that procrastination comes with a potential cost that the franchise simply cannot afford.
If there was any realistic difference in the money -- if some result next year might give you a chance to resign Peja at $9 mil per rather than $15 mil, then maybe. Maybe. You'd still be taking a hell of a risk, but maybe. But the moeny isn't going to change. So we are not sitting here trying to find a way to pay Peja less. Nor realistically are we sitting around tryign to determine whether Peja will be paid the max. He will. ALL we are doing is trying to go for yet one more year of procrastination on judging Peja as a player. As if 7 years is not enough. No, we need an 8th, even if it means risking disaster for the franchise.
Its time for us to suck it up and make a call here. To quit sitting aorund and trying to find some way, anyway, that Peja will come out and make us feel better about keeping him at the max. Peja is going to get his $15 mil/yr contract extension either now, or 12 months from now. Pay him or trade him. Or pay him AND trade him. But this don't pay and don't trade him thing is just avoiding the inevitable, and putting us at risk in the process. Its been 7 years, 500 or so games. There is no need for us to wait oh yet one more 82 game season when at the end of it the money is going to be the same, and all we are going to decide is the same thing we are deciding right now -- the very simple and direct quesion of whether to keep Peja at $15 mil per or not.
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Well if anything, if the Kings want Peja, they will retain Peja. I think the new CBA really helps in that area, as far as retaining players. But then again, as always, it hurts b/c you most likely will be overpaying.
And lets face it, anybody making 15-20 mil a year is overpaid, unless they bring you a championship.
And lets face it, anybody making 15-20 mil a year is overpaid, unless they bring you a championship.
No, it is not how are contracts negotieted. When you decide if you want to sign a gay you try to judge what role he can play for your team, how efficient he is at that and things like that. Then you look at the market and try to have the best guy for the role with the least money you have to pay. It depends on the market and your concrete situation. So in your imaginary world you would like to pay for obsessed psichopat who is perfect NBA player but in real world such player will probably be out of reach. You still need to fill the position so you go with the best player available for the price you can pay. In other words if we can find another player or two that will cover our needs and we end up having better team I'm all for that. The problem with your logic is that it is not based on market trends and that's what Vlade is talking about: The premium shooters market value this year is max contract. How it will be next year we will have to wait and see. Peja's character is just one parameter that will influence his value but there are much more.
What has changed is that the "obsessed psychopaths" (i.e. winners obsessed with basketball and victory) were always going to get paid the max. It was they it was designed for. But now the dilitante's are stepping up and getting paid the max too. And so yes, you 100% CAN do better for the money. Peja is now going to be paid the same thing as Amare. As LeBron. As Wade. Somehow I think our $$ aren't going QUITE as far.
You are aware of rookie contract restriction, right? Also, do you really think players you mentioned are available? "Obsessed psychopaths" is exaggeration, I didn't mean it literarly. Anyway, you have to find better example then rookie stars that will be resigned by their own team to 6 years max contract when their current contract expires. They are not avaiblable. Also, I didn't say Kings won't have a better choice for sure, I've said that superstars (players with superiour skills and obsesed winners) are/will probably be out of reach.
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But the main point is: Not only superstars are signed to the max contract and that even make sense if the situation is right.
Btw, I'll wait another year before proclaiming LeBron is winner. His team didn't make playoff two years in a row. However, he will sign max contract no doubt about it.
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But the main point is: Not only superstars are signed to the max contract and that even make sense if the situation is right.
Btw, I'll wait another year before proclaiming LeBron is winner. His team didn't make playoff two years in a row. However, he will sign max contract no doubt about it.
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Good points. It does seem a little silly to expect any sort of change after 8 years, but the team has changed a lot so I'm not 100% sure that he wouldn't step his play in certain areas because of those changes. I will agree that there is zero evidence to support that idea, especially after last year, it was just a thought. Peja's role has changed since the beginning of last year and I'm at least a little curious to see if he actually does anything to change to fit that role. Your points show exactly why too much curiousity could leave us with nothing in the end so it defenitely should not last too much longer. If we can't wait a whole season to see if he can adjust to a new role(which seems like too big of a risk) then I would say he should be traded. I don't think he merits the Max as is so I guess we should just get what we can for him now, or maybe sometime during the season.
Peja's actions or lack there of on the court are no one's fault but his own. After Peja came back from his hamstring injury last year he started to so flashes of actually going after the ball a few times, and playing a bit more aggressively. It was just that though, a flash. Came and went.
Peja is no where NEAR a max player because he can't carry you in a big game. He can't handle the pressure. As soon as you put pressure on Peja, and I don't mean just a person in his face, I mean the game is on the line, my shot wins it. He misses almost every time he is put in that position. He does not have the heart of a champion. He is not mentally tough. He is not a star. He is a support player. He NEEDS great passers around him to get him open looks. We all saw what happened to Peja once Christie, then Webber was gone.
I hope Peja all of a sudden grows a pair, and becomes what we have wanted him to be so badly. I just don't see it happening. I've heard in interviews that in this off season he is working on his ball handling, and coming off the dribble. That would be great if he could do that. All I'm saying is if the Kings pay Peja a max deal as you said, it will be hard to get actual start power/talent on the team. If he demands more than what he is ACTUALLY worth, not what the market demands, then I say we let him go or sign and trade.
Peja is no where NEAR a max player because he can't carry you in a big game. He can't handle the pressure. As soon as you put pressure on Peja, and I don't mean just a person in his face, I mean the game is on the line, my shot wins it. He misses almost every time he is put in that position. He does not have the heart of a champion. He is not mentally tough. He is not a star. He is a support player. He NEEDS great passers around him to get him open looks. We all saw what happened to Peja once Christie, then Webber was gone.
I hope Peja all of a sudden grows a pair, and becomes what we have wanted him to be so badly. I just don't see it happening. I've heard in interviews that in this off season he is working on his ball handling, and coming off the dribble. That would be great if he could do that. All I'm saying is if the Kings pay Peja a max deal as you said, it will be hard to get actual start power/talent on the team. If he demands more than what he is ACTUALLY worth, not what the market demands, then I say we let him go or sign and trade.
I'm not sure that is the criteria for a max contract. I would agree with you that there should only be a handful of MAX players but it doesn't seem to be working out that way.
NOW is the time to sign Peja! Hopefully, you can use a subpar year, lack of rebounding #s, and the Kings getting bounced in the first round to lowball him a tad. If he blows up next year you are stuck with either giving him a MAX deal or letting him walk for nothing. I agree with Brick on that point.
NOW is the time to sign Peja! Hopefully, you can use a subpar year, lack of rebounding #s, and the Kings getting bounced in the first round to lowball him a tad. If he blows up next year you are stuck with either giving him a MAX deal or letting him walk for nothing. I agree with Brick on that point.
Absolutely, I agree. If you are going to sign him, re-sign him now. But, is he going to ask for something bigger than what he is worth even now? After last year it would be tough to ask for a whole lot. He may not even want to resign right now. He may want his stock to go back up after this year if he plays big. He wants to stay a King, but he may want a bidding war, so that the Kings have no choice but to give him a max if they want to keep him.
PS. Teams can start signing people on Thursday at 3pm PST, 6PM EST.
PS. Teams can start signing people on Thursday at 3pm PST, 6PM EST.
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