Monte McNair’s Trade Deadline Strategy

Tactically for sure Dave is better. I’m not sure he is better in the player relationship side.
One was winning until the one finger salute to both the organization and fans while the other is not. One had fans excited and one has the fans in despair. Pick your poison.
 
If McNair got fired any time in the next 5 years unless he did some kind of gross misconduct it may be my final straw as well. He certainly already seems more aptitude for the job than any of his predecessors and deserves at least the same opportunity that Vlade got, with less meddling.
 
I think this season has been a success as far as assessment. We now know exactly what this team is - and running it back isn’t going to cut it. I get the sentiment of the pro tank crowd - but we can’t judge McNair until we see what he roles out next season.

For those who are done watching the Kings this season - I suggest watching Ted Lasso it might make you feel better.
 
For those who are done watching the Kings this season - I suggest watching Ted Lasso it might make you feel better.
It's only on Apple TV yeah? I loved the character from the ads.

The biggest change next year will be our coach and our draft pick and I guess since we will be forced into BPA most likely the Buddy, Bagley and possibly Barnes situations play out from there.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
If McNair got fired any time in the next 5 years unless he did some kind of gross misconduct it may be my final straw as well. He certainly already seems more aptitude for the job than any of his predecessors and deserves at least the same opportunity that Vlade got, with less meddling.
Do you consider (gross) mismanagement as falling under "gross misconduct", or does that just count "off-the-job"/character stuff?

I'm still very much in the wait-and-see period on McNair. He hasn't had a long time to work, and the results so far have been what I would consider to be relatively unimpactful either way. Hali was a no-brainer. Woodard/Ramsey/trading the Martin Jr. pick are all still TBD (though I'm unlikely to ding anyone for mistakes in the second round). He dug up a useful bench piece in Metu and a bargain signing in Whiteside, but neither of those guys are giving us 15 MPG when they play. He traded two expiring vet players that didn't fit our timeline and got pretty marginal value back. We'll see how Delon plays out (as a backup guard), but I don't have a lot of long term hope for Harkless/Silva. Perhaps trading a second for Davis will work out, but I'm more inclined to think it will be a wash in the end.

Some have argued that he should have traded some of our major assets (Barnes/Hield) but it sounds as if the market was pretty depressed for them and there's something to be said for not taking 60 cents on the dollar to up the tank. (There's also something to be said about not tanking yet again when you've got two young players in Fox and Hali that need to be brought up in a mindset to win.)

And of course, he hasn't fired Walton, but I've maintained that there was no way Walton was getting fired this year anyway because I really doubt the ownership wants to pay for ANOTHER coach who's not coaching for us.

So anyway, I guess it has so far been a lot of treading water for McNair. We'll see how things go in the future, but I don't think I'm inclined to give McNair a whole *five* seasons of treading water before looking for other options. You expect one, or (maybe?) even two, but if we're not in a better place say two months into McNair season 3 (either in terms of being in serious playoff contention, or having an obvious tank position with a lethal too-young core and significant future draft assets as harbingers of our immediate ascendance) I think I'll be ready to move on. In two and a half seasons, I suspect we'll know enough to decide whether McNair has the knowledge and ability to build a team, or whether he's just keeping a seat warm.
 
Do you consider (gross) mismanagement as falling under "gross misconduct", or does that just count "off-the-job"/character stuff?

I'm still very much in the wait-and-see period on McNair. He hasn't had a long time to work, and the results so far have been what I would consider to be relatively unimpactful either way. Hali was a no-brainer. Woodard/Ramsey/trading the Martin Jr. pick are all still TBD (though I'm unlikely to ding anyone for mistakes in the second round). He dug up a useful bench piece in Metu and a bargain signing in Whiteside, but neither of those guys are giving us 15 MPG when they play. He traded two expiring vet players that didn't fit our timeline and got pretty marginal value back. We'll see how Delon plays out (as a backup guard), but I don't have a lot of long term hope for Harkless/Silva. Perhaps trading a second for Davis will work out, but I'm more inclined to think it will be a wash in the end.

Some have argued that he should have traded some of our major assets (Barnes/Hield) but it sounds as if the market was pretty depressed for them and there's something to be said for not taking 60 cents on the dollar to up the tank. (There's also something to be said about not tanking yet again when you've got two young players in Fox and Hali that need to be brought up in a mindset to win.)

And of course, he hasn't fired Walton, but I've maintained that there was no way Walton was getting fired this year anyway because I really doubt the ownership wants to pay for ANOTHER coach who's not coaching for us.

So anyway, I guess it has so far been a lot of treading water for McNair. We'll see how things go in the future, but I don't think I'm inclined to give McNair a whole *five* seasons of treading water before looking for other options. You expect one, or (maybe?) even two, but if we're not in a better place say two months into McNair season 3 (either in terms of being in serious playoff contention, or having an obvious tank position with a lethal too-young core and significant future draft assets as harbingers of our immediate ascendance) I think I'll be ready to move on. In two and a half seasons, I suspect we'll know enough to decide whether McNair has the knowledge and ability to build a team, or whether he's just keeping a seat warm.
My concern with an early termination would be Vivek consistently meddling being the cause. If he botched a layup like his predecessor had, or created the kind of cap/pick hell that Petrie and the two morons combined to do those would be gross mismanagement and fireable. If he blows the coaching replacement and we're on his 3rd coach and not in the playoffs right away then that would also be fireable. I would say most GMs should get 3 years and I'm giving him a freebie for this season and adding one year because Vivek needs to show he doesn't have a hair trigger.

You can ding him with a no-brainer for Haliburton but we've seen the no-brainers passed over routinely with this franchise.

I'm with you that canning Walton going into this season was not an option, though there have been two times (the first long losing streak and right now) where you can see the team has quit on him and a move is warranted. I would still like to see us avoid a situation where we wind up with any of our assistants coaching next season so I am ok trying to get 10 more games out of Walton.

The positives I get from him are he does seem to have a vision. It is more defensively minded than Vlade. I think the DDV move would have been a homerun and while losing Bogi for nothing hurt us the costs of signing him likely would have been crippling over the next 3-4 years. We still seem to have some cap issues at least as far as retaining Holmes is concerned. I am concerned there because Holmes is a nice piece but not one you should break the bank on. I expect that we'll see good things from Monte this offseason which is his first real chance to fully put his stamp on things and show what he is capable of. It will also be our first true indication of how much influence those above him may really wield in routine operations, so that is a bit scary, I am really wanting to believe Vivek has learned from his past mistakes and knows he needs to let basketball people run things.
 
If McNair got fired any time in the next 5 years unless he did some kind of gross misconduct it may be my final straw as well. He certainly already seems more aptitude for the job than any of his predecessors and deserves at least the same opportunity that Vlade got, with less meddling.
The problem is do what. The Kings are literally the only game in town. I think Monte’s already shown signs of being a poor GM and would love to quit being a fan. But if you are a sports fan you have no other options.....

It’s why I thought Burkle was crazy to bow out. This town is crazy to root for something/anything that isn’t a dumpster fire. The Republic would have sold out every game.

Now why the Balkan guys are Kings fans still versus Denver or Dallas ....... they are true fans.
 
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Piston’s view of the Delon trade......

Such was the case when he was able to ship out Delon Wright for Cory Joseph and two second round picks. What looked like a “meh” trade in the beginning now looks like a steal for the Pistons, as they not only got the picks but possibly even the better player.

Joseph has been good since joining Detroit and nearly all his statistics have improved while Wright has gone the opposite direction since joining the Kings.

Not only that, but Joseph’s contract for next season is only partially guaranteed so the Pistons can let him walk and pick up $6 million in cap space.

So the Pistons got the better player, the picks and the cap space while the Kings got a $9 million bill next season.
 
The problem is do what. The Kings are literally the only game in town. I think Monte’s already shown signs of being a poor GM and would love to quit being a fan. But if you are a sports fan you have no other options.....

It’s why I thought Burkle was crazy to bow out. This town is crazy to root for something/anything that isn’t a dumpster fire. The Republic would have sold out every game.

Now why the Balkan guys are Kings fans still versus Denver or Dallas ....... they are true fans.
If you ask me the MLS is a ponzi scheme and Burkle saw that in the wake of COVID the expansion fee is nuts.

signed a concerned MLS season ticket holder who is pretty sure I gave my team an interest free loan and am going to be hit up for even more money before I get to see 20 home games
 
Piston’s view of the Delon trade......

Such was the case when he was able to ship out Delon Wright for Cory Joseph and two second round picks. What looked like a “meh” trade in the beginning now looks like a steal for the Pistons, as they not only got the picks but possibly even the better player.

Joseph has been good since joining Detroit and nearly all his statistics have improved while Wright has gone the opposite direction since joining the Kings.

Not only that, but Joseph’s contract for next season is only partially guaranteed so the Pistons can let him walk and pick up $6 million in cap space.

So the Pistons got the better player, the picks and the cap space while the Kings got a $9 million bill next season.
So players get better when they leave and worse when they join. For me that says the coach cannot utilise players well. Is there another take?
 
So players get better when they leave and worse when they join. For me that says the coach cannot utilise players well. Is there another take?
There is a freaking reason nobody but Vlade was beating down Lukes door after his Lakers stint. There is a likely a reason there is no or little to no interest from Arizona when theoretically Luke would be at the top of the list in terms of resume. There is a reason that the Kings are sitting for the 4th time this year and letting things slide back as the clock winds down. Incompetence.
 
Do you consider (gross) mismanagement as falling under "gross misconduct", or does that just count "off-the-job"/character stuff?

I'm still very much in the wait-and-see period on McNair. He hasn't had a long time to work, and the results so far have been what I would consider to be relatively unimpactful either way. Hali was a no-brainer. Woodard/Ramsey/trading the Martin Jr. pick are all still TBD (though I'm unlikely to ding anyone for mistakes in the second round). He dug up a useful bench piece in Metu and a bargain signing in Whiteside, but neither of those guys are giving us 15 MPG when they play. He traded two expiring vet players that didn't fit our timeline and got pretty marginal value back. We'll see how Delon plays out (as a backup guard), but I don't have a lot of long term hope for Harkless/Silva. Perhaps trading a second for Davis will work out, but I'm more inclined to think it will be a wash in the end.

Some have argued that he should have traded some of our major assets (Barnes/Hield) but it sounds as if the market was pretty depressed for them and there's something to be said for not taking 60 cents on the dollar to up the tank. (There's also something to be said about not tanking yet again when you've got two young players in Fox and Hali that need to be brought up in a mindset to win.)

And of course, he hasn't fired Walton, but I've maintained that there was no way Walton was getting fired this year anyway because I really doubt the ownership wants to pay for ANOTHER coach who's not coaching for us.

So anyway, I guess it has so far been a lot of treading water for McNair. We'll see how things go in the future, but I don't think I'm inclined to give McNair a whole *five* seasons of treading water before looking for other options. You expect one, or (maybe?) even two, but if we're not in a better place say two months into McNair season 3 (either in terms of being in serious playoff contention, or having an obvious tank position with a lethal too-young core and significant future draft assets as harbingers of our immediate ascendance) I think I'll be ready to move on. In two and a half seasons, I suspect we'll know enough to decide whether McNair has the knowledge and ability to build a team, or whether he's just keeping a seat warm.
It's not impossible that I have a 'gap year' or two of my own next year without big improvement. I like the team and the players, and would love to watch Fox, Hali, MBIII, Buddy, etc playing competitive, winning basketball and to make the playoffs. Even as an 8 seed. But there is only so much time you can take out of your life to watch them shuffle sideways.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
There is a freaking reason nobody but Vlade was beating down Lukes door after his Lakers stint.
To be fair, how do we know nobody else was beating down Luke's door? Nobody else even had a chance to ask!

"Parting ways with Lakers" on April 12th, 1:01 PM:

"Kings after Walton" April 12th, 1:11 PM (that's TEN MINUTES):

"Kings will hire Walton" April 13th, 11:51 AM:

Less than 23 hours after it was publicly announced Walton would leave the Lakers, the agreement to bring him on as coach of the Kings was already in place.
 
To be fair, how do we know nobody else was beating down Luke's door? Nobody else even had a chance to ask!

"Parting ways with Lakers" on April 12th, 1:01 PM:

"Kings after Walton" April 12th, 1:11 PM (that's TEN MINUTES):

"Kings will hire Walton" April 13th, 11:51 AM:

Less than 23 hours after it was publicly announced Walton would leave the Lakers, the agreement to bring him on as coach of the Kings was already in place.
I mean, if Luke had other suitors after the Lakers firing, I’d imagine that info would have leaked and the subsequent bidding war for his services would likely have drawn out the hiring process.

It was fast, but if other GMs wanted him, I’m sure they could have gotten into contact after Vlade’s interest was made apparent.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
Piston’s view of the Delon trade......

Such was the case when he was able to ship out Delon Wright for Cory Joseph and two second round picks. What looked like a “meh” trade in the beginning now looks like a steal for the Pistons, as they not only got the picks but possibly even the better player.

Joseph has been good since joining Detroit and nearly all his statistics have improved while Wright has gone the opposite direction since joining the Kings.

Not only that, but Joseph’s contract for next season is only partially guaranteed so the Pistons can let him walk and pick up $6 million in cap space.

So the Pistons got the better player, the picks and the cap space while the Kings got a $9 million bill next season.
According to the Pistons. Your agenda to smear McNair and prop up Walton as being mistreated is bordering on ridiculous.

If Cojo is the better player, then it just is more proof that Walton is horrendous because Cojo was terrible here and couldn’t stay in front of his many anymore.

The biggest problem with this team right now is Walton is a subpar head coach. The second biggest problem with this team may be that there is just. It enough toughness but we won’t know until Walton is gone. He is bad.
 
According to the Pistons. Your agenda to smear McNair and prop up Walton as being mistreated is bordering on ridiculous.

If Cojo is the better player, then it just is more proof that Walton is horrendous because Cojo was terrible here and couldn’t stay in front of his many anymore.

The biggest problem with this team right now is Walton is a subpar head coach. The second biggest problem with this team may be that there is just. It enough toughness but we won’t know until Walton is gone. He is bad.
Exactly where did I prop up Luke. I have specifically said he is marginal at best.

The biggest problem with this team is they have low IQ players who will never get them in the play-offs regardless of the coach. It’s always the coach with you all and despite changing the coach every 2-3 years we are still the same. What a shock.

YoU CaN’T CoaCH Up LOw IQ PLAyeRS!
 
Exactly where did I prop up Luke. I have specifically said he is marginal at best.

The biggest problem with this team is they have low IQ players who will never get them in the play-offs regardless of the coach. It’s always the coach with you all and despite changing the coach every 2-3 years we are still the same. What a shock.

YoU CaN’T CoaCH Up LOw IQ PLAyeRS!
Well the truth is most of the Kings Coaches have has little success elsewhere.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
Exactly where did I prop up Luke. I have specifically said he is marginal at best.

The biggest problem with this team is they have low IQ players who will never get them in the play-offs regardless of the coach. It’s always the coach with you all and despite changing the coach every 2-3 years we are still the same. What a shock.

YoU CaN’T CoaCH Up LOw IQ PLAyeRS!
You all. Lol. I didn’t want Joerger fired. Nor Malone. Karl was past his expiration point. You are grasping at straws. This low IQ angle is also weird. I mean Hield may fall in this category but Barnes? Fox? Halliburton? Your guy Cojo? Possibly Bagley but he has hardly played the last 2 years. Is Holmes really a low IQ player? Your guy Bogi was supposed to be a high IQ player, right?

Lol
 
You all. Lol. I didn’t want Joerger fired. Nor Malone. Karl was past his expiration point. You are grasping at straws. This low IQ angle is also weird. I mean Hield may fall in this category but Barnes? Fox? Halliburton? Your guy Cojo? Possibly Bagley but he has hardly played the last 2 years. Is Holmes really a low IQ player? Your guy Bogi was supposed to be a high IQ player, right?

Lol
If you think this team is a high IQ team it probably isn’t worth more discussion.
 
I have been around sports possibly longer than you have been alive. Sports IQ is a given just like height or wingspan. You either have it or you don’t. A very wise coach I know said you will go as far as your IQ takes you. It’s a fallacy that good coaching can make a low IQ player a high IQ player.

Doesn’t mean that player is a bad athlete but certain sports put a higher priority on sports IQ. Swimming and track almost none. Basketball and Water Polo it’s a premium.
 
While no one has discussed him in this thread, I think people give Geoff Petrie too much credit. He was horrible in the later years and really led the Kings to where we are now. Kings weren't satisfied with being 1st round exits, but look at where we went afterwards? Look at our head coaches:

2006-07: Eric Musselman 33wins (drafted Spence Hawes after)
2007-08: Reggie Theus 38 wins (drafted Jason Thompson after)
2008-09: Reggie Theus AND Kenny Natt 18 games (drafted Tyreke)
2009-10: Paul Westphal 25 wins (drafted Cousins)

4 coaches in 4 years after firing Adelman.

Notable busts picked after this: Jimmer Fredette and Thomas Robinson.

With a "transition" like that, it's no wonder the Kings are still trying to recover 10 years later. He set us up awfully. It's funny that Vlade Divac, another beloved member of that nostalgic 2000s era was another person who sabotaged this franchise with poor GMing.
 
People are calling for McNair's head too early. We were never going to be good this year. Yes he probably should've trade Barnes at the deadline, but it's not the biggest deal breaker. What's wrong with this team goes beyond McNair. I'd like to see what he gets to do with a full offseason and his own chosen head coach. I don't think this coaching job is desirable at all. If he can pull out a big name, it would be franchise changing for us. I'm not sure who though.
 
YoU CaN’T CoaCH Up LOw IQ PLAyeRS!
Is that true? Pretty sure BBIQ is not a fixed component of our DNA. Ultimately the players have to put in the work, but it comes from a mix of instinct and experience and watching tape and uhh, well... receiving good coaching. Arguably someone in their mid-20s it may be too late, like how adults can't develop perfect pitch. But almost surely good BBIQ is the result of good coaching somewhere in a player's development?
 
Is that true? Pretty sure BBIQ is not a fixed component of our DNA. Ultimately the players have to put in the work, but it comes from a mix of instinct and experience and watching tape and uhh, well... receiving good coaching. Arguably someone in their mid-20s it may be too late, like how adults can't develop perfect pitch. But almost surely good BBIQ is the result of good coaching somewhere in a player's development?
does it require coaching yes.... but just like any other intelligence you can’t work with what god failed to put in. People with Ausberger’s will have trouble reading people and picking up social clues. Some people can deal with math and others can’t. Sports intelligence is no different. Not everyone can see a court, process it in an instant and be able to predict with a fair degree of precision what will happen next.

it’s funny, people who would readily agree no matter how much teaching and training, some people just aren’t going to get a 1600 on an SAT (old scoring). Yet those same people seem to think with the right coaching anyone can be taught. Sports intelligence is no different than other types of intelligence.