Monte McNair’s Trade Deadline Strategy

#63
Sacramento isn't the biggest town, I used to have pretty direct connections to at least two of the principle owners in the 80s and early 90s. My parents both owned restaurants and so they knew everyone. It's not far fetched to believe a lot of posters here have connections. Of course how reliable those people are is something else and a rep you earn over time. Just saying "trust me" doesn't cut it for most. Just how it is.

Personally I believe Barnes over the next two seasons is worth more than Nesmith plus any pick the Celtics can include over that time. That would change if Fox got injured or we were willing to move him, because then and only then would we be competing for a bottom 4 spot in the league standings. But as long as Fox and Hali are the backcourt of the future, Barnes is perhaps the next most valuable player on our roster and hardest to replace.
 
#64
Just saying "trust me" doesn't cut it for most. Just how it is.

Personally I believe Barnes over the next two seasons is worth more than Nesmith plus any pick the Celtics can include over that time. That would change if Fox got injured or we were willing to move him, because then and only then would we be competing for a bottom 4 spot in the league standings. But as long as Fox and Hali are the backcourt of the future, Barnes is perhaps the next most valuable player on our roster and hardest to replace.
On the 'trust me' bit, I could care less whether someone has contacts or not, but when close to every single post someone makes is negative, I am not going to view what they say as balanced or considered. Rather, for me at least, if someone is constantly like ‘the front office did not do exactly what I think they should have done and are therefore incompetent’ I may assume that that poster is too rigid in their thinking and not worth paying attention to. Or – possibly more of a stretch – if someone is ‘I have connections and I think everyone at the franchise is dumb and incompetent’ – then I may feel that their posts are just a very boring attempt to undermine the franchise. Again - that is just me.

On Nesmith. I don't pay any attention to Boston but had a quick look at his stats. He plays around 15 minutes a game, shoots 30 something percent from the field and from three. Why would we swap Barnes - who was once a number 8 pick - and is a much better and more proven player now than then - for a rookie who is yet to do anything and a mid first round pick? Sure, you can get into discussions about whether we should be losing, about finances etc. But for those finer details to be of interest we have to be getting something of reasonable value back.
 
#65
Sacramento isn't the biggest town, I used to have pretty direct connections to at least two of the principle owners in the 80s and early 90s. My parents both owned restaurants and so they knew everyone. It's not far fetched to believe a lot of posters here have connections. Of course how reliable those people are is something else and a rep you earn over time. Just saying "trust me" doesn't cut it for most. Just how it is.

Personally I believe Barnes over the next two seasons is worth more than Nesmith plus any pick the Celtics can include over that time. That would change if Fox got injured or we were willing to move him, because then and only then would we be competing for a bottom 4 spot in the league standings. But as long as Fox and Hali are the backcourt of the future, Barnes is perhaps the next most valuable player on our roster and hardest to replace.
I’m not saying they need to trust me. I really could care less. My issue is a pattern of behavior among a subset of posters to demand sources which frankly is none of their business and rude to ask.
 
#66
On the 'trust me' bit, I could care less whether someone has contacts or not, but when close to every single post someone makes is negative, I am not going to view what they say as balanced or considered. Rather, for me at least, if someone is constantly like ‘the front office did not do exactly what I think they should have done and are therefore incompetent’ I may assume that that poster is too rigid in their thinking and not worth paying attention to. Or – possibly more of a stretch – if someone is ‘I have connections and I think everyone at the franchise is dumb and incompetent’ – then I may feel that their posts are just a very boring attempt to undermine the franchise. Again - that is just me.

On Nesmith. I don't pay any attention to Boston but had a quick look at his stats. He plays around 15 minutes a game, shoots 30 something percent from the field and from three. Why would we swap Barnes - who was once a number 8 pick - and is a much better and more proven player now than then - for a rookie who is yet to do anything and a mid first round pick? Sure, you can get into discussions about whether we should be losing, about finances etc. But for those finer details to be of interest we have to be getting something of reasonable value back.
Given we are:
1) about to set the record for consecutive years out of the play-offs,
2) are on pace to finish between 8-12 for I don’t know how many years,
3) are almost capped out,
4) have a Portland 2024 2nd as our only additional pick

Their isn’t a lot that you can say positive about this front office. And yes it is not all on McNair but he has not made the situation better. And him not standing up to Vivek has arguably made it worse.
 
#67
Given we are:
1) about to set the record for consecutive years out of the play-offs,
2) are on pace to finish between 8-12 for I don’t know how many years,
3) are almost capped out,
4) have a Portland 2024 2nd as our only additional pick

Their isn’t a lot that you can say positive about this front office. And yes it is not all on McNair but he has not made the situation better. And him not standing up to Vivek has arguably made it worse.
Do you regularly “stand up” to your boss? Or the owner of the place where you work? Maybe you are the boss or owner and it is irrelevant. But Monte said he had full control. So I will take him at his word. So that means his decisions are his and he owns them. As most of us do.
 
#68
Do you regularly “stand up” to your boss? Or the owner of the place where you work? Maybe you are the boss or owner and it is irrelevant. But Monte said he had full control. So I will take him at his word. So that means his decisions are his and he owns them. As most of us do.
Well in your case it is his issue either way... :-/
 
#69
Given we are:
1) about to set the record for consecutive years out of the play-offs,
2) are on pace to finish between 8-12 for I don’t know how many years,
3) are almost capped out,
4) have a Portland 2024 2nd as our only additional pick

Their isn’t a lot that you can say positive about this front office. And yes it is not all on McNair but he has not made the situation better. And him not standing up to Vivek has arguably made it worse.
I respectfully disagree. Sure, the Kings are experiencing the longest playoff drought in NBA history. So if you step back and say: ‘The Kings have been one of the worst performing teams since the Maloof’s started to experience financial difficulty and, aside from keeping the team in Sacramento and building a new arena, not much has gone right for them since’. But the fans on this site discuss more than the just the big picture and end of season grades. They are capable of takes such as:
  • ‘Vlade did not improve the team, I am glad he is gone.’ OR ‘There were not many moves Vlade made that I liked, and I do not think the team improved with him at the helm. But, I do understand what he was trying to do.’ OR ‘Vade did well by drafting Fox, trading scraps for HB, moving guys like Dedmond for value once he realised he was scraps, shame MBIII has been injured and guys like WCS and Harry didn't work out’.
  • ‘I don’t like Marvin, I don’t like that he is a king, that he is injured, that he has noisy family, or that he raps’. OR ‘I’m so-so on Marvin, I would like to see him on the floor more so he can keep getting better as this would benefit the Kings’. OR ‘MBIII was a stud in college he will eventually be a stud in the NBA, I know it! More raps please Marvin’
  • ‘We do not have much talent, Monte should tank’. OR 'I'm still waiting for Monte to do a bit more of substance before I make my mind up on him'. Or. ‘Even though I believe Monte should tank, I recognise this is a challenge with players like Fox on the team, who can win games on his own. I also recognise that tanking is not fool proof, you may need several bites of the cherry, players don't pan out, get injured, or leave. I also recognise many teams have made their way to the top of the NBA standings without tanking. For now, I am glad Monte shifted two nonsense second round picks for something of value and am happy to see if this works out, Go Kings!’
I’m not going to argue any one of these perspectives is invalid or closer to being right/ wrong. They all have an element of value. But if an individual only makes negative posts or exhibits a very regimented and inflexible view of what is right and how the franchise should operate, it would not be unfair for another individual to devalue these contributions or to question whether they have any imagination. I'm not saying everyone should do this - you can all choose how you respond to each other. I'm also not trying to direct this at any one poster - I am just expressing how someone could, at times, respond to different posting behaviours. For me, at times, this is how I feel.
 
#70
Here's my hot take. The Kings need to lose and keep losing not for the draft but to remove any excuse to keep Walton around. They even stumble into the play-in by default, I would be fearful of Vivek keeping Walton just for appearance sake.

And yes, I did say earlier that if they made the playoffs not just play-in that they would probably have to keep him. But in my defense that was with the Kings winning not because everyone else was losing also.
 
#71
I respectfully disagree. Sure, the Kings are experiencing the longest playoff drought in NBA history. So if you step back and say: ‘The Kings have been one of the worst performing teams since the Maloof’s started to experience financial difficulty and, aside from keeping the team in Sacramento and building a new arena, not much has gone right for them since’. But the fans on this site discuss more than the just the big picture and end of season grades. They are capable of takes such as:
  • ‘Vlade did not improve the team, I am glad he is gone.’ OR ‘There were not many moves Vlade made that I liked, and I do not think the team improved with him at the helm. But, I do understand what he was trying to do.’ OR ‘Vade did well by drafting Fox, trading scraps for HB, moving guys like Dedmond for value once he realised he was scraps, shame MBIII has been injured and guys like WCS and Harry didn't work out’.
  • ‘I don’t like Marvin, I don’t like that he is a king, that he is injured, that he has noisy family, or that he raps’. OR ‘I’m so-so on Marvin, I would like to see him on the floor more so he can keep getting better as this would benefit the Kings’. OR ‘MBIII was a stud in college he will eventually be a stud in the NBA, I know it! More raps please Marvin’
  • ‘We do not have much talent, Monte should tank’. OR 'I'm still waiting for Monte to do a bit more of substance before I make my mind up on him'. Or. ‘Even though I believe Monte should tank, I recognise this is a challenge with players like Fox on the team, who can win games on his own. I also recognise that tanking is not fool proof, you may need several bites of the cherry, players don't pan out, get injured, or leave. I also recognise many teams have made their way to the top of the NBA standings without tanking. For now, I am glad Monte shifted two nonsense second round picks for something of value and am happy to see if this works out, Go Kings!’
I’m not going to argue any one of these perspectives is invalid or closer to being right/ wrong. They all have an element of value. But if an individual only makes negative posts or exhibits a very regimented and inflexible view of what is right and how the franchise should operate, it would not be unfair for another individual to devalue these contributions or to question whether they have any imagination. I'm not saying everyone should do this - you can all choose how you respond to each other. I'm also not trying to direct this at any one poster - I am just expressing how someone could, at times, respond to different posting behaviours. For me, at times, this is how I feel.
Fair enough. Just to clarify I said this Front Office because I think Luke hasn’t been fairly treated and has done a okay job with the hand he has been dealt. I have also advocated not trading Marvin.

This board goes from one on the court scapegoat after another. In my opinion the focus needs to be on the front office but I appreciate your point.
 
#72
Fair enough. Just to clarify I said this Front Office because I think Luke hasn’t been fairly treated and has done a okay job with the hand he has been dealt. I have also advocated not trading Marvin.

This board goes from one on the court scapegoat after another. In my opinion the focus needs to be on the front office but I appreciate your point.
I appreciate your reply. When the Kings are not just losing, but looking awful in the process, why let anyone off the hook? Some of our differences on this may be the patience we afford McNair and how we have judged/ weighted the moves he has/ has not made so far. And, although I remain somewhat cynical about Luke's overall coaching abilities, I agree that he was not put in a position to be successful for most of this season and that simply replacing him is no quick fix.
 
#74
*my opinion* Monte McNair and staff's current thinking at trade deadline was as follows:

Monte is placing a value on his players and other teams players for that matter, of which he utilizes many criterion- salary, term, impact, need, cap etc.. As to the trade deadline, he is valuing his offerings against other teams offerings -based on his valuations. He then tries to improve the team incrementally. If he doesn't get additional value, in his view, he doesn't make a deal.

Because I could not think of another name, we simply could refer to this strategy as "The Farhan."

Let me weigh, if I may share his thinking on how weighed this strategy against the other more obvious, historically more successful, but slow, expensive and more painful strategy. As a result, this strategy, or a GM that advocates for this strategy, is never allowed to begin, and if started, preempted before maturation, and/or otherwise killed by ownership.

As a result, we have the McNair and staff current "Hybrid approach. " And this is how he got the job. But now you know. *my opinion*
 
#75
Sacramento isn't the biggest town, I used to have pretty direct connections to at least two of the principle owners in the 80s and early 90s. My parents both owned restaurants and so they knew everyone. It's not far fetched to believe a lot of posters here have connections..
This isn’t the 80’s or 90’s anymore. Times change.

The KINGS don’t practice at American River College as they did upon arriving in 1985.

I get that the KINGS haven’t been Nationally relevant in 15 years, but they aren’t a small operation anymore either.

And the narrative that SAC is still some small cow town is way past accurate too. It surely isn’t NY, CHI, LA or SF, for sure, but 2.5M metro population isn’t exactly small town either. And folks from LA and the Bay continue to flock here daily. My property values keep rising to indicate such.

I’m sure a few that frequent this site are connected in some way, but the days of a lot of posters here being connected is surely something I find to be far fetched. Anybody ”connected” to the minority $1M investors aren’t going to be privy to anything.
 
#76
Fair enough. Just to clarify I said this Front Office because I think Luke hasn’t been fairly treated and has done a okay job with the hand he has been dealt. I have also advocated not trading Marvin.

This board goes from one on the court scapegoat after another. In my opinion the focus needs to be on the front office but I appreciate your point.
How has Walton been unfairly treated? How can you say he has done an okay job when the team he coaches is barely above openly tanking teams. Is the team better now on paper than the team that ended last season?

There was a style of play sold to the fans that potentially is a better fit to the players on his roster. Has he delivered on that? Does he play a system that gets the most out of his players? Or does he expose their weaknesses?
 
#77
How has Walton been unfairly treated? How can you say he has done an okay job when the team he coaches is barely above openly tanking teams. Is the team better now on paper than the team that ended last season?

There was a style of play sold to the fans that potentially is a better fit to the players on his roster. Has he delivered on that? Does he play a system that gets the most out of his players? Or does he expose their weaknesses?
Since the trade for Barnes the team has been the same, the team was only good (as in playoff good) when Fox was balling and Bjelica was playing out of his mind for a good stretch a few seasons back with Shumpert's toughness. Since the Kings went all in for Barnes and traded G-Leaguer for him they did not improve at all regardless of who they have on the roster despite a huge upgrade for Holmes over WCS (would have been interesting to see if we had Holmes instead of WCS before the Barnes trade).

Now they are in a worse position since Buddy and Barnes are signed to huge deals and Bogi (has come back to being a High IQ player) leaving is kind of looking bad (although at 18mil not worth it as well). Also the whole league now knows what a lot of Kings fans suspected about Bagley which does not bode well.
 
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#78
Since the trade for Barnes the team has been the same, the team was only good (as in playoff good) when Fox was balling and Bjelica was playing out of his mind for a good stretch a few seasons back with Shumpert's toughness. Since the Kings went all in for Barnes and traded G-Leaguer for him they did not improve at all regardless of who they have on the roster despite a huge upgrade for Holmes over WCS (would have been interesting to see if we had Holmes instead of WCS before the Barnes trade).

Now they are in a worse position since Buddy and Barnes are signed to huge deals and Bogi (has come back to being a High IQ player) leaving is kind of looking bad (although at 18mil not worth it as well). Also the whole league now knows what a lot of Kings fans suspected about Bagley which does not bode well.
Sactowndog stated that the front office has been unfair to Walton. The only thing you listed that was not prior to McNair's hiring is the team not matching on Bogi's contract and Bjelica being traded. Walton wasn't using Bjelica so that is moot. Everything else was during Vlade's time, the man who hired him.

My post was simply asking how Walton has been treated unfairly AND how can he be considered doing okay.
 
#79
Since the trade for Barnes the team has been the same, the team was only good (as in playoff good) when Fox was balling and Bjelica was playing out of his mind for a good stretch a few seasons back with Shumpert's toughness. Since the Kings went all in for Barnes and traded G-Leaguer for him they did not improve at all regardless of who they have on the roster despite a huge upgrade for Holmes over WCS (would have been interesting to see if we had Holmes instead of WCS before the Barnes trade).

Now they are in a worse position since Buddy and Barnes are signed to huge deals and Bogi (has come back to being a High IQ player) leaving is kind of looking bad (although at 18mil not worth it as well). Also the whole league now knows what a lot of Kings fans suspected about Bagley which does not bode well.
I think the fans are expecting a play-off run and I don’t see us getting there with this roster.

McNair spending seconds on Journeymen players and saying he is improving the team sets the wrong impression and leaves some fans with the impression this team could make it if only they had a better coach. This team isn’t that close in my opinion. All that is happening is Vivek wants something not realistic and McNair is telling Vivek and the world what Vivek wants to hear.

and the cycle continues..... if only we could find the right coach for the 10th time. Or trade away <insert latest scapegoats name> and it will be addition by subtraction.
 
#80
I think the fans are expecting a play-off run and I don’t see us getting there with this roster.

McNair spending seconds on Journeymen players and saying he is improving the team sets the wrong impression and leaves some fans with the impression this team could make it if only they had a better coach. This team isn’t that close in my opinion. All that is happening is Vivek wants something not realistic and McNair is telling Vivek and the world what Vivek wants to hear.

and the cycle continues..... if only we could find the right coach for the 10th time. Or trade away <insert latest scapegoats name> and it will be addition by subtraction.
Atlanta's doing well y'know, you don't HAVE to be here
 
#81
I think the fans are expecting a play-off run and I don’t see us getting there with this roster.

McNair spending seconds on Journeymen players and saying he is improving the team sets the wrong impression and leaves some fans with the impression this team could make it if only they had a better coach. This team isn’t that close in my opinion. All that is happening is Vivek wants something not realistic and McNair is telling Vivek and the world what Vivek wants to hear.

and the cycle continues..... if only we could find the right coach for the 10th time. Or trade away <insert latest scapegoats name> and it will be addition by subtraction.
There are a lot of innuendos in your post. If anything, McNair has been a ghost. I haven't really heard a peep from McNair. Have heard indications on Vivek and him wanting to compete.

Now in terms of Vivek, won’t get much if any arguments from me on him.

How close or not close the team is, is open for debate. Do I think the teams record should be better than it is? Yes. Do I know that? No. Do I think that if they did make the playoffs that they would make some noise? No. Do I know that? No but pretty certain.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#82
Imagine thinking Walton hasn’t been treated fairly, LOL. McNair gave this guy a roster at the beginning of the season that should be much much better record wise. Has misused so, so many guys on this roster. Walton is not very good. Facts.
 
#83
This isn’t the 80’s or 90’s anymore. Times change.

The KINGS don’t practice at American River College as they did upon arriving in 1985.

I get that the KINGS haven’t been Nationally relevant in 15 years, but they aren’t a small operation anymore either.

And the narrative that SAC is still some small cow town is way past accurate too. It surely isn’t NY, CHI, LA or SF, for sure, but 2.5M metro population isn’t exactly small town either. And folks from LA and the Bay continue to flock here daily. My property values keep rising to indicate such.

I’m sure a few that frequent this site are connected in some way, but the days of a lot of posters here being connected is surely something I find to be far fetched. Anybody ”connected” to the minority $1M investors aren’t going to be privy to anything.
You make it sound a bit like I was taking a shot at Sacramento, all I'm saying is Sacramento's inner circles are still pretty concentrated and there are definitely folks who know things here. It goes without saying that I wasn't defending vague low quality posts - it was in response to "I don't owe you a source" posts that have been cleaned up from the site noting that there are people with sources and they know how to share info without burning their sources.
 
#84
You make it sound a bit like I was taking a shot at Sacramento, all I'm saying is Sacramento's inner circles are still pretty concentrated and there are definitely folks who know things here. It goes without saying that I wasn't defending vague low quality posts - it was in response to "I don't owe you a source" posts that have been cleaned up from the site noting that there are people with sources and they know how to share info without burning their sources.
In terms of this poster, he actually hasn't said his source is within the Kings organization. Just putting that out there.
 
#85
In terms of this poster, he actually hasn't said his source is within the Kings organization. Just putting that out there.
Which is why it was legit when that person was called on to offer anything to back up their statements. They are still paying the price for their reaction to the Bogi saga, and it might be unfair, so I will at least give credit to them for sticking it out this season. But their credibility gap is of their own doing. Sorry to say.
 
#86
Given we are:
1) about to set the record for consecutive years out of the play-offs,
2) are on pace to finish between 8-12 for I don’t know how many years,
3) are almost capped out,
4) have a Portland 2024 2nd as our only additional pick

Their isn’t a lot that you can say positive about this front office. And yes it is not all on McNair but he has not made the situation better. And him not standing up to Vivek has arguably made it worse.
Dude! McNair was hired as GM on September 17th, the draft was on November 20th, free agency started on November 20th and the 2020-2021 season started on December 22nd. Don't you think maybe he should get more than a 4 week off-season to turn the team around before you start judging him on his ability? I've been accused of being a Vlade "hater" but it was at least 2 years before I took stock of his performance and decided he was the wrong man for the job.

The two big decisions McNair has made regarding the roster which have multi-year implications are: (1) signing De'Aaron Fox to a max extension and (2) drafting Tyrese Haliburton with the 12th overall pick in the draft. Looking at how the season has played out so far, both of those decisions look pretty good. Losing second round picks? Meh. I doubt anyone could come up with even two players in Sacramento Kings history who were drafted in the second round and survived with the team past their rookie contracts. Maybe you can take issue that McNair didn't have a fire sale and join the race to the bottom with Detroit, OKC, Orlando, etc but the odds of that working out are pretty small I think. Maybe we get a 10% bump in our lottery odds but is that worth losing every good rotation player we have that isn't named Fox or Haliburton? Probably not. The deadline strategy was fine. The team just isn't good and until/unless we find a better coach, someone gifts us an All-Star, or we get lucky in the draft there isn't much any GM can do about that in 6 months.
 
#87
Which is why it was legit when that person was called on to offer anything to back up their statements. They are still paying the price for their reaction to the Bogi saga, and it might be unfair, so I will at least give credit to them for sticking it out this season. But their credibility gap is of their own doing. Sorry to say.
Yes, but there's a difference between what one thinks should have happened and making a stand on that and claiming to know something behind the closed doors. With Bogdanovic he was pretty emphatic about what he thought should happen but didn't happen. That is simply a agree to disagree, a perfectly reasonable position. With the trade deadline, he was making a claim that something specific had been offered. His claim wasn't outlandish and fit with various media sources that was coming from different angles. That isn't to say he does or does not have sources even if not in Sacramento.

His failure to agree to disagree with the Bogdanovic transaction shouldn't have anything to do with his credibility on insider knowledge. I don’t give it much credence either way because you can know something and still not have it come to pass. Office politics can be nasty. Or get lucky but still not know in reality.
 
#88
Yes, but there's a difference between what one thinks should have happened and making a stand on that and claiming to know something behind the closed doors. With Bogdanovic he was pretty emphatic about what he thought should happen but didn't happen. That is simply a agree to disagree, a perfectly reasonable position. With the trade deadline, he was making a claim that something specific had been offered. His claim wasn't outlandish and fit with various media sources that was coming from different angles. That isn't to say he does or does not have sources even if not in Sacramento.

His failure to agree to disagree with the Bogdanovic transaction shouldn't have anything to do with his credibility on insider knowledge. I don’t give it much credence either way because you can know something and still not have it come to pass. Office politics can be nasty. Or get lucky but still not know in reality.
Correct me if I'm wrong but they offered a) that this was definitively the offer on the table and that b) Monte was stupid not to take it.

a) is pretty big info, if that were true - and it's definitely on the low end of what the Kings or any fan base would have considered

to which I think b) is a collective hell no from almost everyone who understands this team isn't possibly going to finish bottom 4 without shipping Fox.

The poster has a habit of using bottom of the article speculation from blogs and sites like draft express level sources to consistently bash Monte for the entire season and its gotten tiring.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#89
If Walton weren't consistently floundering with his stylistic approach and openly making critical coaching mistakes game to game in a variety of ways it wouldn't be on him, but it is. The dude isn't terrible but he is his own worst enemy and the definition of mediocre. And allowing a holdover coach regardless of the real reason why to remain on board is also on the front office for ignoring history in the first place. De'Aaron Fox can only do so much.
 
#90
Which is why it was legit when that person was called on to offer anything to back up their statements. They are still paying the price for their reaction to the Bogi saga, and it might be unfair, so I will at least give credit to them for sticking it out this season. But their credibility gap is of their own doing. Sorry to say.
In my opinion it’s never legit to ask a person to provide their sources. In my case, it isn’t really going to matter because as is probably painfully obvious I’m not easily bullied. But we never know who is posting here and it could easily be a younger person who perhaps heard a conversation while dad worked from home.

Pressure that person enough and they might feel the need to prove themselves and reveal where they heard the data. That could well cause someone to get fired. Disbelieve all you want. That position is fine. I have been on this board long enough for you to form an opinion on my credibility. I don’t care if you want to call me a moron. Go right ahead. But behavior that could cause real damage to a person should not be tolerated.

By the way the Bogi situation was my opinion. I differentiate between what I have heard and my opinion.