Mid-year review

[CruzDude]

Marty Macs responses yesterday tend to agree with my own observations of the past 2-3 weeks with some things becoming more apparent with our Kings:

- as a team the Kings are continuously improving;
- the improvement is made all the tougher with so much youth and inexperience;
- this level of youth (2nd or 3rd youngest TEAM in NBA) take longer to mesh without a real floor leader and only 2 real vets getting a lot of floor time;
- KingsFans have finally come to realize that Tyreke is a "Guard" and not a particular guard. Coach is old school enough to try to take advantage as best he can;
- Beno has come into his own this year but is also a "Guard" and he is making major contributions with and in spite of the youthful core;
- Pooh is a point guard. *Head is not. *Pooh stimulates the team on the floor;
- Cousins improvement is practically game-by-game so a little bit changes each game. *A young team takes longer to adapt to those little changes;
- Omri is a keeper and the hounding defender the Kings have needed for a long time. He is learning the NBA 3 and can defend some 4's when needed;
- JT is coming along really well and is the versatile 4-5 the Kings need;
- Dalembert is just what the Kings needed in the middle this year and he is a big help to Cousins;
- then there is Donte Greene. *Upside and ability offset by inconsistency and lack of focus. Hard to define him and a role for him yet until he establishes his game but he has only a half season *left to do that;

I like where the team and the coach are going. *Agonizing at times, uplifting at others and consistency beginning to show it's head. *Don't see any major trades and think Maloofs will stand pat until the CBA situation resolves itself. *The Kings after all have the smallest payroll in the NBA ($43M) and are in the best situation to take advantage of any new CBA.

Bottom line, I see our boys becoming the real spoilers for the rest of the year and developing a personality leading to the next season.

 

[Bricklayer]

- Omri is a keeper and the hounding defender the Kings have needed for a long time. He is learning the NBA 3 and can defend some 4's when needed;
- JT is coming along really well and is the versatile 4-5 the Kings need;

you were going along swimmingly and then the rear end got a little loose

 

[SCKingsfan]

you were going along swimmingly and then the rear end got a little loose

I knew at least one of those would gain attention.

Omri is growing; not there yet but seems to have the talent and the will. I would say he is "coming along" okay

JT.. hasn't taken the positive turn I hoped for in his 3rd year. seem to be showing some noticable improvement on D (to average); still seems like a valuable bench guy at least

 

[sidney]

JT.. hasn't taken the positive turn I hoped for in his 3rd year. seem to be showing some noticable improvement on D (to average); still seems like a valuable bench guy at least

He's almost 25 so the "potential" angle is fading. His touch around the basket is consistent and off. Hard to see that changing now. I don't mind having him around but wouldn't mind him being shipped to in a deal to solidify a more talented starter at any position. I'm a little worried about us giving him a bigger deal and watching those frustrating missed 2-4 footers for the next 5 years.

 

[bajaden]

Here's my take on JT. So far he hasn't lived up to the potential I thought he had. But thats what potential is actually worth. Nothing, unless it transforms itself into something solid. He may never live up to his potential, and time is runninig out. Some of that may be his fault, and some may be the fact that he's been jerked aroung for the 2 plus years he's been here. But regardless of that, its ultimately up to the player to do the work to improve. I have no doubt that JT works hard at his game. So that in itself may speak volumes.

Having said all that, he's hardly worthless. His defense has improved considerablely since his first day at the job. He's a good rebounder and he can play two positions. Both being important positions. He doesn't make a huge amount of money, and has two years left on his contract, with the last being a qualifying offer year. My point being, that I doubt we could find another player that does what he does for the price he does it at. So there is no way I'm going to trade him just for the sake of trading him. However, if he could be made part of a deal that helps us aquire an impact player, then I'm on board.

I like JT. Its hard not to like someone that busts his butt everytime he goes out on the floor. I'm still hopeful that he can inch his game up one more notch. But as I said, he's running out of time..

 

[Tyndel]

How much of what we have seen the last 4 years been about our young guys being jerked this way and that by the squad of "coaches" thrown at them and yes I am continuing to include WP in there. How much of what they learn is bad habits and just plain wrong? Potential has to be worked for by the player and the player has to be surrounded by people helping them reach it. A big man learns footwork and builds on that but if the foundation is shaky what are you building on? Thats why I think a short term coach isn't harmless.

Yes I like JT and think that he can be a good piece for us either as the first big off the bench or as a starter who isn't expected to do too much. Don't forget we have landry and Sammy on enders so we would be left with just Cousins and Whiteside left under contract if we gave JT away... Hmmm maybe Whiteside would see the floor....

 

[Kingsguy881]

He's almost 25 so the "potential" angle is fading. His touch around the basket is consistent and off. Hard to see that changing now. I don't mind having him around but wouldn't mind him being shipped to in a deal to solidify a more talented starter at any position. I'm a little worried about us giving him a bigger deal and watching those frustrating missed 2-4 footers for the next 5 years.

He needs to just 'throw it down big fella'. Wonder why he stopped going up strong. Does he even have a dunk this year?

 

[CruzDude]

Then along comes the Spurs game and throws a big pothole in the Kings road to improvement. Now there is a game about which I have no clue. It was a team effort at stinking up the place too. A home game against one of the best teams usually brings out the best in the kids. So in this case I guess the pothole is the mysterious "inconsistency" element that rears it's head with explanation. But why? They were doing so well.

 

[pshn80]

you were going along swimmingly and then the rear end got a little loose

On JT and Omri..... Brick, you offer a question mark, and I agree, but I'd appreciate your take on the two of them in the vein offered on this thread.

 

[pshn80]

Here's my take on JT. So far he hasn't lived up to the potential I thought he had. But thats what potential is actually worth. Nothing, unless it transforms itself into something solid. He may never live up to his potential, and time is runninig out. Some of that may be his fault, and some may be the fact that he's been jerked aroung for the 2 plus years he's been here. But regardless of that, its ultimately up to the player to do the work to improve. I have no doubt that JT works hard at his game. So that in itself may speak volumes.

Having said all that, he's hardly worthless. His defense has improved considerablely since his first day at the job. He's a good rebounder and he can play two positions. Both being important positions. He doesn't make a huge amount of money, and has two years left on his contract, with the last being a qualifying offer year. My point being, that I doubt we could find another player that does what he does for the price he does it at. So there is no way I'm going to trade him just for the sake of trading him. However, if he could be made part of a deal that helps us aquire an impact player, then I'm on board.

I like JT. Its hard not to like someone that busts his butt everytime he goes out on the floor. I'm still hopeful that he can inch his game up one more notch. But as I said, he's running out of time..

Good analysis. We don't have to talk about potential anymore for a player like this who's been around and played
as much as JT. Now it's about the role he plays on this team and how well he does it. I agree with you, he is valuable and worth keeping.

 

[iowamcnabb]

you were going along swimmingly and then the rear end got a little loose

You know there were a few Nocioni/Casspi comparisons made before and after we drafted him....I'd like to think Omri's ceiling is higher but I could see him topping out as a scrappy defender/ 3 ball man.

And 'scrappy' defender as we have seen with Noc does not necessarily translate to 'good' defender.

 

[bajaden]

You know there were a few Nocioni/Casspi comparisons made before and after we drafted him....I'd like to think Omri's ceiling is higher but I could see him topping out as a scrappy defender/ 3 ball man.

And 'scrappy' defender as we have seen with Noc does not necessarily translate to 'good' defender.

You could be right. No way to tell just yet. But Casspi does have a few things going for him that Nocioni didn't, or doesn't . He's taller, and he's a better athlete. And at this point in his career he's more plyable than Nocioni was when he was here. Nocioni was what he was, and wasn't going to miraclously get any better. Casspi still has that wonderful word, potential. So we can hope!!

 

[mac]

You could be right. No way to tell just yet. But Casspi does have a few things going for him that Nocioni didn't, or doesn't . He's taller, and he's a better athlete. And at this point in his career he's more plyable than Nocioni was when he was here. Nocioni was what he was, and wasn't going to miraclously get any better. Casspi still has that wonderful word, potential. So we can hope!!

Doesn't have Noc's size though, but that isn't really a big problem. Noc could guard the quicker 4s, and once even did an excellent job on Dirk. Casspi is quicker but doesn't quite have the strength/size to guard bigger players.

 

[Bricklayer]

Doesn't have Noc's size though, but that isn't really a big problem. Noc could guard the quicker 4s, and once even did an excellent job on Dirk. Casspi is quicker but doesn't quite have the strength/size to guard bigger players.

Casspi's considerably taller/longer. Less bulky of course. But with his build he has the more natural position than Noc -- built like just a tall SF. With Noc a problem has always been what is he and who can he guard? Has bulk, but too short/stubby to guard PFs. Too bulky to stay with quicker SFs. Casspi has a natural defensive position, and has good size at that position. He's taller than many of the league's best at the position. Taller than LeBron, or Pierce, or Smith or Wallace, or Melo etc. etc. But he doesn't have truly great size like Donte -- his size isn't overwhelming enough that it is going to do the work for him. He needs to pick it up. I keep saying that but its just true given our situation. Its not like his career is in balance or whatever like Donte. But it is his starting position in the balance. There's no physical reason for him to struggle on defense as often as he does. And while there could be some wavering focus/thinking of himself as an offensive player first stuff going, on, this is Omri we are talking about, and you have to believe he is competitive enough to want to stop his man. But more guys have big games against him than get shut down by him. And its not because of his size/build.

 

[vikinginferno]

JT's problem is that he isn't great at anything. He's a pretty good rebounder, but he's definitely no Kevin Love. He's an above average defender. He has decent athleticism, can shoot above average for a big, is alright in the strength department, has some average moves around the basket, but doesn't have anything that stands out. I guess that doesn't need to be a problem, but it holds him back from being a very good player. He can still be a very solid rotation guy, but great players are great at something, not decent to pretty good at a bunch of things.

 

[mac]

One huge weakness I see with our team is screens, both on the offensive and defensive end. On defense, the players (most notably Tyreke) always get stuck on screens. I don't know whether this is due to a lack of communication or whether guys just aren't in shape to go through screens or if the refs just aren't calling moving screens or whatever, but basically we get owned by screens, specifically simple pick and rolls run by the other team.

On offense, we still seem to suffer from the Spencer Hawes/JT I don't know how to set a proper screen syndrome. Our bigs just flash out and barely establish a good screen before moving away, and the guards don't do a good job of using the screen either. Again, Tyreke is a big culprit here. More often than not, he calls for a screen, and then goes the other way and tries to split the double team. I'm sure all of you can picture what I'm talking about. On good teams the screens set actually mean something. They result in guys getting wide open shots, or easy pick and roll opportunities.

 

[PacMan]

JT's problem is that he isn't great at anything. He's a pretty good rebounder, but he's definitely no Kevin Love. He's an above average defender. He has decent athleticism, can shoot above average for a big, is alright in the strength department, has some average moves around the basket, but doesn't have anything that stands out. I guess that doesn't need to be a problem, but it holds him back from being a very good player. He can still be a very solid rotation guy, but great players are great at something, not decent to pretty good at a bunch of things.

I think JT needs to be position at the midrange/free throw area on offense ala Brad Miller/Webb. He is terrible at finishing around the rim and is a better jump shooter. Also, with Cousins being the the better post player, this will help open up the post for Cousins to operate in the paint.

 

[bajaden]

One huge weakness I see with our team is screens, both on the offensive and defensive end. On defense, the players (most notably Tyreke) always get stuck on screens. I don't know whether this is due to a lack of communication or whether guys just aren't in shape to go through screens or if the refs just aren't calling moving screens or whatever, but basically we get owned by screens, specifically simple pick and rolls run by the other team.

On offense, we still seem to suffer from the Spencer Hawes/JT I don't know how to set a proper screen syndrome. Our bigs just flash out and barely establish a good screen before moving away, and the guards don't do a good job of using the screen either. Again, Tyreke is a big culprit here. More often than not, he calls for a screen, and then goes the other way and tries to split the double team. I'm sure all of you can picture what I'm talking about. On good teams the screens set actually mean something. They result in guys getting wide open shots, or easy pick and roll opportunities.

All good points. Ironicly, our best big man at defending the pick and roll is Thompson. He does the proper push, and is good at switching back. Thompson also talks on defense. He is by no means Akeem, but on our team he's the best we have. Cousins isn't bad at defending the pick and roll, but he has a long way to go. Dalembert, of late, has been awful. One would think that with his experience he would be the best. He certainly has the quickness to do a proper push and get back to his man. By being late on getting back, he left Cousins in a quandry several times, whether to leave his man to pick up the roller, which is what he's suspossed to do, or pray for a miracle, which isn't likely. Of course whichever his choice, someone is unguarded. Anyway, its no shock that we got killed by the pick and roll with Thompson not playing. There are reasons why one player is a better fit next to another player, other than just finishing around the basket.

As for setting picks or screens, I would say that Cousins sets the most solid screens of anyone. And I have to give some credit to Landry, who doesn't set them very often, but when he does, he holds the screen just fine. Thompson isn't bad, but could improve, and once again, Dalembert is a little too quick with his screens. Couple that with Tyreke who is mostly thinking about how he can score off a screen, and not the player setting the screen.So he doesn't use them properly most of the time. Not a flaw in his game, just a flaw in his mindset.

When Steve Nash came into the league he thought a screen was something to keep the bugs out. Now he runs the pick and roll as good, or better than anyone in the league. To be honest, I don't think these are major things to be worried about. At least in the long term. Its all about getting everyone on the same page, and getting used to playing together. And on defense, trusting one another. That takes time and patience.

 

[mr. moustache]

found on hoopshype.com: RE: Noc

You feel very good in Philly. Andres Nocioni: Yes. Much better than last year. And not only on the court. Also off the court. That locker room in Sacramento... I didn't like it at all and this is so different. - Eurosport

Interesting comment. I wouldn't necessarily read anything into it, but it's not good to hear either.

 

[pshn80]

Casspi's considerably taller/longer. Less bulky of course. But with his build he has the more natural position than Noc -- built like just a tall SF. With Noc a problem has always been what is he and who can he guard? Has bulk, but too short/stubby to guard PFs. Too bulky to stay with quicker SFs. Casspi has a natural defensive position, and has good size at that position. He's taller than many of the league's best at the position. Taller than LeBron, or Pierce, or Smith or Wallace, or Melo etc. etc. But he doesn't have truly great size like Donte -- his size isn't overwhelming enough that it is going to do the work for him. He needs to pick it up. I keep saying that but its just true given our situation. Its not like his career is in balance or whatever like Donte. But it is his starting position in the balance. There's no physical reason for him to struggle on defense as often as he does. And while there could be some wavering focus/thinking of himself as an offensive player first stuff going, on, this is Omri we are talking about, and you have to believe he is competitive enough to want to stop his man. But more guys have big games against him than get shut down by him. And its not because of his size/build.

I think one factor in why he is inconsistent on defense is his emphasis on rebounding. This emphasis leads him to too frequently take his eyes off his man to look for potential shots by others and rebounding. Just like people cheat on defemse to get a jump on the fast break, he cheats to get to the potential rebound first. I think it works for rebounding but it takes away his concentration on defense.

 

[Asaf]

found on hoopshype.com: RE: Noc

You feel very good in Philly. Andres Nocioni: Yes. Much better than last year. And not only on the court. Also off the court. That locker room in Sacramento... I didn't like it at all and this is so different. - Eurosport

Interesting comment. I wouldn't necessarily read anything into it, but it's not good to hear either.

I can't say I'm surprised by this comment. Ime Udoka also hinted at some things that were going on, and while Ime's comments were more about on-court stuff, there's a very strong link between these two problems.

 

[bajaden]

I think JT needs to be position at the midrange/free throw area on offense ala Brad Miller/Webb. He is terrible at finishing around the rim and is a better jump shooter. Also, with Cousins being the the better post player, this will help open up the post for Cousins to operate in the paint.

There is perception and there's reality. And unfortunately the two are seldom the same. Perception is something passed on from one year and person to person to the next year, and so on. Reality however, is whats actually happening. Here are some stats from 82 games website.

59% of Thompsons shots are jumpshots, and he makes them at 40.9% clip. Nothing to write home about, and if he were a SG, he'd be sitting on the bench with that percentage, unless it was from beyond the 3 pt line. 22% of his shots are from 10 feet in. Such as little turn around flips and hooks. He makes 70% of those shots. Now that is something to write home about, and perhaps he should be taking more of them.

7% of his shots are dunks. And he makes 86.7% of those. Now while the percentage may sound good, he gets a fair amount of those blocked. Which has more to do with technique, than anything else. As an example, 6% of Landrys shots are dunks and so far, he's made 100% of them this year. 12% of Thompson's shots are tips, or putbacks. Of these he's successful 42.9% of the time. For reference you can compare him to Landry's 50% success rate. However only 1% of Landrys shots are tips. Which means Thompson is more active around the offensive boards than Landry is.

Now while the tips percentage seems low, you have to remember that these type of shots usually occur in a crowd with a lot of bumping and banging going on. By the way, also just for reference, 67% of Landrys shots are jumpshots, and he only makes 36.9% of them. Thats for this year.

So if you were to go on stats alone, Thompson is more effective overall than Landry is. And were not even getting into rebounding and defense. Bottom line is that Thompson is more effective around the basket than he is out there shooting jumpers. And he's particularly effective with his little hookshots and flip shots. Lets also remember that he only takes 6.6 shots a game, which for a starter isn't very much. Everyone misses shots, but for some reason Thompson gets singled out more than anyone else for his misses.

If I were Thompson, I would spend the entire offseason shooting 500 jumpers a day until they became automatic. Being consistent with that shot, would open up more shots in the lane for him. He has good form, so its just a matter of practice makes perfect. I'd also make him practice defending someone with his hands tied behind his back or to his side.

 

[pshn80]

Re: JT and Landry's effectiveness. I've always been impressed with Landry's successful percentage of getting up and in around the basket. I've seen, in similiar attempts by JT, a much higher percentage of getting blocked or blowing the shot. I don't see how that fits in the percentage of success with various shots by them but the perception persists.

 

[ESP47]

So if you were to go on stats alone, Thompson is more effective overall than Landry is. And were not even getting into rebounding and defense. Bottom line is that Thompson is more effective around the basket than he is out there shooting jumpers. And he's particularly effective with his little hookshots and flip shots. Lets also remember that he only takes 6.6 shots a game, which for a starter isn't very much. Everyone misses shots, but for some reason Thompson gets singled out more than anyone else for his misses.

Thats exactly why you can't go on stats alone. If you asked 100 coaches who the better offensive player was, 99 of them would say Landry. Durant, Kobe and Lebron don't have the best shooting percentages in the game but they are considered the best offensive players because they can make the tough shots that most players cant. Landry can make tough shots and post up in situations where Thompson cant. Landry can create his own shot where Thompson usually has to be set up by someone. Landry is undersized but he also doesn't go 3 or 4 games in a row with completely empty stat lines.

I will give JT credit because he has been much better around the basket this year. His 16 foot jumper looks no where near as good as it did his rookie year, but his post efficiency has been light years better. His problem is that he's a guy who needs to be set up and we just don't have guys (or plays) on this team that can set him up. A prime Peja would only be scoring 14-15ppg with this team.

 

[Bricklayer]

Thats exactly why you can't go on stats alone. If you asked 100 coaches who the better offensive player was, 99 of them would say Landry. Durant, Kobe and Lebron don't have the best shooting percentages in the game but they are considered the best offensive players because they can make the tough shots that most players cant. Landry can make tough shots and post up in situations where Thompson cant. Landry can create his own shot where Thompson usually has to be set up by someone. Landry is undersized but he also doesn't go 3 or 4 games in a row with completely empty stat lines.

I will give JT credit because he has been much better around the basket this year. His 16 foot jumper looks no where near as good as it did his rookie year, but his post efficiency has been light years better. His problem is that he's a guy who needs to be set up and we just don't have guys (or plays) on this team that can set him up. A prime Peja would only be scoring 14-15ppg with this team.

While not disagreeing on the obvious gap between Jason and Carl -- one guy has his offense creeated for him, the other guy has 1 on 1 ability to create for himself -- its really not a huge problem going forwrd. In fact I actually think Carl's game is more probemeatic going forward. As this team goes a long Reke and Cousins are going to significantly dominate the ball, take the shots, and create them for other people. A roleplayer type guy like Jason actually fits into that future a lot better than a guy like Carl who also is looking for his number to be called. The obvious solution if Carl is the keeper is to have him come off the bench so he can avoid being out there with the Reke/Cousins combo, but its still not as natural a fit as having a guy who waits for the shot to be created for him. Jason's problem is that even when it is, its far from certain he will convert it.

 

[ESP47]

While not disagreeing on the obvious gap between Jason and Carl -- one guy has his offense creeated for him, the other guy has 1 on 1 ability to create for himself -- its really not a huge problem going forwrd. In fact I actually think Carl's game is more probemeatic going forward. As this team goes a long Reke and Cousins are going to significantly dominate the ball, take the shots, and create them for other people. A roleplayer type guy like Jason actually fits into that future a lot better than a guy like Carl who also is looking for his number to be called. The obvious solution if Carl is the keeper is to have him come off the bench so he can avoid being out there with the Reke/Cousins combo, but its still not as natural a fit as having a guy who waits for the shot to be created for him. Jason's problem is that even when it is, its far from certain he will convert it.

I agree that Jason fits better out there with Evans and Cousins and Landry is better coming off the bench. The real question is whether or not Jason is a real NBA starter. I don't think he is.

 

[bajaden]

Thats exactly why you can't go on stats alone. If you asked 100 coaches who the better offensive player was, 99 of them would say Landry. Durant, Kobe and Lebron don't have the best shooting percentages in the game but they are considered the best offensive players because they can make the tough shots that most players cant. Landry can make tough shots and post up in situations where Thompson cant. Landry can create his own shot where Thompson usually has to be set up by someone. Landry is undersized but he also doesn't go 3 or 4 games in a row with completely empty stat lines.

I will give JT credit because he has been much better around the basket this year. His 16 foot jumper looks no where near as good as it did his rookie year, but his post efficiency has been light years better. His problem is that he's a guy who needs to be set up and we just don't have guys (or plays) on this team that can set him up. A prime Peja would only be scoring 14-15ppg with this team.

I'm the last guy in the world that likes to use stats as an example of a players efficency. There is no stat for the intangibles. However, it is all we have available other than our opinions. At any rate, I wasn't making a case for Thompson being a better post player than Landry, or anyone else for that matter. I was just trying to make a point that there's a wide difference between where Thompson is, and being absolutely terrible in the post, which is what was implied. Not by you of course..

Thompson to some extent has had a bumpy road. When he was drafted he was the first legitimate PF with size since Webber. And he had little or no competition ahead of him, unless you want to count Mikkie Moore. So there were expectations that were probably too high, especially in the short term. Had he gone to a team like the Lakers or the Jazz, he would have been slowly worked into the rotation. And from a fans point of view, not much would have been expected of him, and anything he gave you would have been a pleasant surprise. He went from a fair amount of minutes off the bench, to starter at PF, to starter at PF and backup at center, to backup at PF and backup at center, to starter at center when Hawes was hurt. Which brings up to this year, where he was once again backup to both center and PF. He then got a DNP in favor of Darnell Jackson. That had to be a blow, considering where he'd been the previous years. Now he's once again the starter at PF.

He only averages 6.6 shots a game, and if he didn't have the occasional game where he got 10 to 14 shots, he'd be averaging closer to 4 shots a game. But if you look at the games where he has taken 10 shots or more, he's scored in double figures in all of them. Thompson is probably looking over his shoulder in every game. Because if he misses his first couple of shots, he generally gets a quick hook and doesn't see many minutes the rest of the way, unless the matchup dictates he be on the floor. If you don't believe me, just go look at the game log. There are games where he only played 12 minutes or so, and he went 0 for 2 , or 1 for 4 from the floor.

Landry and others have the luxury of being able to miss shots and still be left in the game. How many times did you see Webb miss his first 6 or 7 seven shots, but end up the night going 8 for 17 and scoring 20 plus points. I still remember his 2 for 22 night. Thompson doesn't have that benefit. And I'm not saying he deserves it. It just is what it is. The irony is, that he's back to where he would have started on a different team, where the expectations would have been lower in the short term.

 

[pshn80]

I agree that on this team now it is best to start JT and have Landry come off the bench....... but I wonder if JT might be more productive and more offensively efficient if he played more minutes, getting second half/4th quarter time that now goes mostly to Landry. I wouldn't ask coach to do it but I would love to see what happens if that was done regularly.

 

[pshn80]

Tonight JT got that chance I spoke of above and I liked what I saw. He is a good complement to our big two. Too bad no win tonight. I think Tyreke could have used three or four more minutes rest in the second half. He looked tired in the last minutes of play which has been a big problem for us earlier in the year.