Dreadnought
Bench
Guys like Landry and Hayes I would give away for free if I could. That's where I stand on this.
I think you guys are being awfully close-minded about this Jason Thompson situation. We have to be realistic about what does and does not have value. Thornton is getting paid a lot of money to do nothing right now so you have to convince somebody he can at least come close to getting them 15-18 points per game. I believe Minnesota might be interested in Hayes (or Landry) only because of the Adelman situation, but otherwise Thompson and IT are basically the only positive value vets we have. The rest are valuable only as expiring contracts in the near future.
Here's the thing with Thompson -- and I understand that most disagree with me on this and see him as a productive player -- but we don't need him. He's not helping us win anything. At PF right now we have Thompson, Patterson, Hayes, and Landry. Landry and Thompson's contracts are almost identical and neither of them is a starter.
This is what we're losing in Thompson (Last 4 years):
8.8pts, 6.3rebs, 1.1ast, 0.4stl, 0.6blk (24.4mpg)
This is what we'd be getting in Williams:
10.2pts, 5rebs, 0.6ast, 0.6stl, 0.5blk (22mpg)
The overall drop in production is negligible. Now i could have used Thompson's career numbers, but he's 27 years old and his production has already been declining. Derrick Williams is 22years old and has never had a chance to be a starter in the NBA. You can compare their per36 numbers as well if you like. Williams is a better scorer, Thompson grabs 1.5 more boards per game, but he should. He's played all of his minutes at PF/C.
The comparison in terms of raw production isn't as big as people make it out to be. If Thompson is so valuable, and Williams flat out sucks than how come Williams is averaging very similar stats as Thompson? Where is this untapped value that Thompson is somehow providing us? I think it simply boils down to the perception that 6'11" means he's valuable as a backup to Cousins which we already know is a tenuous position at best.
But look at our roster, take Thompson out and we get Patterson/Hayes at PF for two or three months until Landry comes back. You don't think Landry can put up 8.8 and 6 in 24mpg? Every NBA bench in the league has a guy who can give you those numbers. Heck, we have three of them. Wouldn't you rather have a 22 year old SF with some potential to get better alongside Cousins and McLemore than the John Salmons and Travis Outlaw flying circus? Mbah A Moute can split minutes at SF and PF anyway. What about a lineup of Vasquez/McLemore/Williams/Mbah A Moute/Cousins for now and we see what happens in the draft and off-season to bolster those forward positions?
For anyone who thinks this team needs a shot in the arm right now to improve the attitude of the team, swapping Thompson's minutes for Derrick Williams if nothing else constitutes a significant change to the personality of the team in the short-term future. And I think Williams is going to be so happy to be playing again, he might surprise some people (see also, the Marcus Thornton post-trade effect).
You have to take into account the natural growth arc of the player. If I had told you at the beginning of last season that Evan Turner would be a 20ppg scorer in the league before his rookie contract is up I would have been laughed out of the room. Look at the big step forward Cousins has taken in his fourth season. Williams is just 22 years old now, Thompson was 22 years old his rookie season and now he's a 6th year NBA vet. Think about that.
He's not long enough to start at 4. Again we would be forcing someone to play against guys with more size and length, which is not a productive idea, unless the player has a very good multiple skill set. Even then, for the heart of our lineup at the 2, 3, 4, it should be avoided if at all possible
I kind of like Derrick Williams, but reminds me of a similar player which we just traded, Thomas Robinson. Although Williams can shoot the 3 and is more athletic.
Any chance Kings can get these players? Rondo, Jeff Green and Omer Asik without trading away Cousins and McLemore?
I think this would be a pretty good starting line-up
Rondo
McLemore
J.Green
Cousins
Asik
Plenty of scoring and for sure Coach Malone can make this line-up play better defense with better personnel.
I could dream or just make it happen in NBA 2K14![]()
I watched a ton of Arizona the year that Williams broke out and rocketed up the draft boards. I was targeting potential SFs that the Kings could draft and the was watching pretty much all of the players who could have NBA talent such as Harrison Barnes, PJIII, Chris Singleton, Kawaii Leanoard, Jordan Hamilton, Jeff Taylor, ect. Because Arizona is in the Pac-10/12 I got to watch most of their games, so I saw him play a lot.
Arizona didn't play him at SF and in many cases he was their biggest player on the floor. I remember the games against USC where he was matched up against Nicola Vucevic (F/C who is tearing it up in Orlando).
The big question with him was whether or not he'd actually be able to play the SF position.
By the end of the season he had convinced me that he could play the SF position. He was very accurate from long range when he shot with his feet set and he had great athleticism.
I would absolutely be in favor of bringing him in, but only if the plan was to make him a dedicated SF. He isn't a PF and if you're going to play half of his minutes at the PF position then I don't think you do him or yourself any favors.
I would not in any way be in favor of trading him for JT because JT is a better big man than Williams will ever be, and with-out JT we don't have any true big-man depth behind Cousins.
So if the plan was to trade Hayes or Thornton or one of our SFs in order to bring in Williams to be our new starting SF, you can sign me up in a heartbeat. If the idea is to make the trade and try him out at PF (which wouldn't make sense with Landry waiting in the wings) then that's probably a losing proposition.
There's a reason Williams has never started in the NBA. He's not very good. Not to mention there are different forms of being productive and replacing JT with Williams would be a huge dropoff in talent and production from the PF spot.
If by "huge dropoff in production" you mean half an assist and 1.5 rebs per game, sure. Obviously that would cripple our roster. But as I've said over and over again already, I don't want to get Williams to start him at PF, I want him to start at SF -- a position at which we are currently getting almost no production. It's not really that complicated -- we get a short-term rental on a talented 22 year old who has a chance to grow alongside our centerpieces Cousins (23) and McLemore (20) and we get him at a position where we're desperate for anyone who can hit an open jumpshot consistently. Williams was one of the best in college basketball at doing exactly that his Sophomore season. If Williams isn't that guy, we've saved ourselves 6.4 million off our cap space in 2015 and 6.8 million in 2016. That's more than enough to sign a veteran PF who can replace JT's production -- or it would be anyway, if we weren't already paying Landry approximately that much already to replace JT's production.
First, Thompson has more value than Williams at this point, and is certainly more valuable to us than Williams would be. Secondly, the original rumor had us trading Hayes, who Adelman likes, for Williams. Hayes has no future with us, and Thompson probably does, so that trade makes more sense for us and for them, and that's a trade I would do. I would not trade Thompson for Williams, and I certainly wouldn't add anyone else to Thompson, if I wouldn't trade him.
Trading Hayes for Williams is a no-brainer. I liked Williams a lot in college. He may be a late bloomer. This is the "kind" of player the Kings should be looking for - talented young players who might start to "get it" after being a few years in the league.
I don't mind trading junk for junk just to give him a tryout. But I would only want to see him playing SF at first to see how it works out. I believe though that Outlaw is most likely better at SF than Williams so I don't see where he would get time unless they tried playing him at PF which I don't want to see.
The Timberwolves are a stacked team? When did that happen?
I think we are dreaming if we expect to get Williams for Hayes, the dude has potential but he's stuck on a stacked team, he has zero risk since it's a two year deal and I have seen him defend the SF really well when he had to. I certainly think he can become a SF in the long run.
Apparently, according to rumors, the T Wolves have inquired about Hayes. They need some front court help, and your forgetting that they were the team that tried to sign Hayes when we were originally going after him. Adelman likes Hayes because he fits the kind of offensive scheme he likes to play. Hayes is a good player on the right team. Were not it.
I don't see Williams much different than Ppat unless he plays SF. Question is will he be a SF here?I'm CruzDude and I approve this post. Kings are rebuilding and will take a year and a half at least to settle down. A young SF/PF with Williams size and perimeter skills would very likely be a better fit than Hayes as bajaden states above. Would seem to benefit both sides.
I'm CruzDude and I approve this post. Kings are rebuilding and will take a year and a half at least to settle down. A young SF/PF with Williams size and perimeter skills would very likely be a better fit than Hayes as bajaden states above. Would seem to benefit both sides.
They may well have inquired about Hayes, in fact we've been suggesting trying to dump him on them ever since they got Adelman, but the leap of faith has to be that they would therefore be willing to swap a former #2 pick in the draft for a 30yr old Chuck Hayes. That would require a ballsiness rarely encountered in NBA circles. They'd surely want more. And the more is where it gets tricky.
Good question, to which I don't have the answer. However, there's perception, and then there's reality. Thabeet was the second pick in the draft, and you could have him for a soda and a bag of chips now. Fact is, all second picks aren't created equal. Bottom line is, Hayes is more skilled than Williams, so with Williams, your betting on age. What you have, are two players that aren't getting much playing time with their current teams. So if both teams think this trade might improve their team, then forget age and where anyone was drafted, and do the deal. This is Williams third year, and so far, he's proven nothing. That may not be totally his fault, but anyway you cut it, he's a gamble.
Like I had said above, the production I am talking about aren't just related to the stats you are posting. It would be like putting Grant Hill (in his prime) at PF just because he can average 10 rebounds a game and saying since your starting PF only pulls down 8 or so then Hill would have been better suited to play PF then the actual PF they had. Williams is not a PF and the intangibles that JT brings to the PF spot (over what Williams would bring) would correlate to the huge dropoff I am speaking about.
I don't mind trading junk for junk just to give him a tryout. But I would only want to see him playing SF at first to see how it works out. I believe though that Outlaw is most likely better at SF than Williams so I don't see where he would get time unless they tried playing him at PF which I don't want to see.
His name is Kevin love. He's back. He's kinda good.when they got healthy.
Good question, to which I don't have the answer. However, there's perception, and then there's reality. Thabeet was the second pick in the draft, and you could have him for a soda and a bag of chips now. Fact is, all second picks aren't created equal. Bottom line is, Hayes is more skilled than Williams, so with Williams, your betting on age. What you have, are two players that aren't getting much playing time with their current teams. So if both teams think this trade might improve their team, then forget age and where anyone was drafted, and do the deal. This is Williams third year, and so far, he's proven nothing. That may not be totally his fault, but anyway you cut it, he's a gamble.
Sure.
But so is trading anything of any potential value for a undersized guy averaging 1.0pts 1.8rebs and 0.4ast on .278 shooting. If they had cap room I could maybe see them try to shuffle us a 2nd round pick for him. But with his contract he's probably a net negative value player at this point. Its hard to imagine that's the best offer you could come up with for Williams, degraded as his own value is at this point.