Marvin Bagley III

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ESP47 said:
Again, I'm not talking about championships. I'm talking about getting the Kings into the playoffs.

Whether we personally believe Doncic can be the guy or not, he's being mocked by most people at 2 because they believe he is the 2nd best player in the draft. They don't mock potential role players at 2. There is a reason most people are so high on this guy.

Analytics say that the next dynasty won't be built around freakishly athletic bigs and the only way that'll happen is if you get the big men version of KD and Curry together on the same team. Almost all of the successful teams are running the same type of program because that's what the analytics say you need to do to win games. Teams are jacking up 3s at a rate we've never seen before and it's working for them. You aren't going to win by trading 2s for 3s unless you are a unicorn big man who can score extremely efficiently while playing elite defense on the other end.

AD and Cousins had a hell of a time trying to do exactly what you are suggesting. We don't have anyone who is even 1/3 as good as they are and we're somehow planning on starting a revolution with the same idea they had?
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Doncic's claim to fame is not shooting 3 point shots, it's passing. He has a mediocre shooting percentage. Therefore, it doesn't follow that the 3 point analytics of the NBA should play to his advantage in the analysis. In fact, his greatest deficiency is his inability to get his own shot because of his mediocre quickness. If a guy doesn't have quickness to get his own shot in the NBA is that going to enable him to improve his shooting percentage in the future or hinder him in improving his shooting percentage? It will be a handicap for him going forward. If Doncic were a great 3 point shooter who could get his own shot in the NBA I think there would be unanimity on this board that he should be the guy at #2, and part of reason would be because of 3 point "analytics." But that's just not the case.
 
Sac.Kings said:
I like Bagley but I'm concerned about his game. It's really centered on being right at the basket, which is a huge limit on a big man these days. No mid range game to speak of, free throw percentage is not great, and he didn't really shoot all that many threes. He's also a twig. His game just doesn't scream star to me. Can he make others around him better?
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Did Malone make Stockton better? What about Amare/Nash or Blake/cp3? Bagley might be Fox's running mate for the next ten years if drafted on Thursday.
 
roasthawg said:
Did Malone make Stockton better? What about Amare/Nash or Blake/cp3? Bagley might be Fox's running mate for the next ten years if drafted on Thursday.
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Amare made no difference for Nash. He was maybe more succuesful with Marion and joe Johnson. Ditto cp3, he was second in mvp voting and actually should have won over Kobe with the hornets.

Stockton never played without Malone, but I’m inclined to be believe the best assist man of all time would have been great anywhere.
 
tyguy said:
Amare made no difference for Nash. He was maybe more succuesful with Marion and joe Johnson. Ditto cp3, he was second in mvp voting and actually should have won over Kobe with the hornets.

Stockton never played without Malone, but I’m inclined to be believe the best assist man of all time would have been great anywhere.
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Yeah Nash and the Suns went from 54-28 to 40-42 in Nash's first season without Amare (he avg 25ppg with the Knicks).
 
tyguy said:
And was swept in the first round on a team that has no business making the playoffs with a .512 winning percentage.
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Dude, Nash and the Suns fell off 14 games without Amare. I'll leave this here cause I know you're not budging and inch off your argument. I agree with you that a pf that plays offense without much d isn't the player that will single handedly elevate your team to the playoffs. But surrounded by the right talent he can still be a major piece. Amare obviously had a major impact on the Suns as they fell off pretty significantly when he left. Maybe Bagley can have that kind of impact on us? I'm not high on Bagley, I want jjj or Bamba. But doesn't look like that's in the cards. If it's Bagley or Doncic it's kind of a toss up for me... I like the upside and fit of Bagley just a little better though.
 
I think we're getting carried away with Bagley not playing D. Bagley is a highly mobile big man with a very quick jump and a motor. That's exactly what you need in today's game because of the 3 point shooting. Last night I was watching a game of his against North Carolina and he went out and blocked their point guard's shot at the 3 point line due to his mobility and his quick jump. He's got the protoplasm to be a very good defender, imo.
 
Whats the key to beating the warriors and rockets?... RUN them off the 3pt line. Bagley can do that. The team D is what he will need to learn and develop.
 
beb0p said:
You can't seem to get around the idea that KD and Curry are the only way to win. Even your hypothetical next dynasty is just like the current one. That's fine. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Nobody said the next dynasty is going to be pounding the ball inside like the old ways; and Bagley is not that type of big.

AD and Cousins consistently outscore opponents by wide margins when they are on the floor. The problem with the Pelicans have nothing to do with the duo and everything to do with the high number of Pelican players who should be in the G-League. Give the Kings Cousins and AD and we will be deep into the playoff.
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Look up and down the standings. It's not just KD and Curry that are winning in the same fashion. It's almost every single team in the league right now. The only outliers have big men like Embiid and AD that can do everything. Bagley is not projected to be one of those outliers. AD and Embiid in a way are basically Bagley and Bamba put together. They have the offense, rebounding and defense all rolled into one package. You'd basically just be playing the lotto if you drafted Bagley with the assumption that his defense will become as good as his offense.

I just don't think it's going back to the way it used to be without some changes to the defensive rules or to the 3 point line. Trust me, I'd rather be on your side of things because I miss watching a big man go to work in the post but you're going to see less and less of it outside of an outlier or two from here on out. Almost all these big men are developing 3 point shots, which mean they are working less and less on punishing teams inside. They're doing it because the analytics say it's more efficient to do it that way. I wish it was a fad but it's not.
 
hrdboild said:
If there's no can't-miss franchise player in the draft than why are you pointing out all these franchise big men who carried their teams to the playoffs? Not to mention, we have a 7' freak athlete on the team right now who's hardly a franchise player. Bagley is probably going to be a pretty good offensive rebounder but other than that I don't know that anything is guaranteed. He's pretty skinny to be expected to bang with the big boys, especially when he didn't even do it in college. He's got a long way to go to catch up to guys like Chris Bosh as a shooter and he's non-existent as both a shotblocker and a playmaker. If you look at all the skills bigmen are asked to exhibit on a nightly basis now in the NBA -- the ability to shoot from outside, make intelligent rotations on defense, rebound, block shots, find open shooters -- Bagley can be relied on to do one of them?

The whole "freak athlete thing" feels both overstated and borderline irrelevant to me in light of Bagley's skillset. If he were a freak athlete and built like a truck you'd have something. If he were a freak athlete who can fill it up from outside and take guys off the dribble then he's a franchise player. But a freak athlete who needs an open lane to the basket is just Clint Capela without the defense. I wouldn't give that hypothetical player 10 million a year and we're supposed to be fawning over him with the 2nd pick in the draft? Seems like a waste to me.
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Dude, it was in response to another poster who mentioned star wing players in a hypothetical. If Shawn Marion can be used to justify drafting Doncic, then of course franchise bigs can be used to justify drafting Bagley. There is a higher chance that Bagley become as good as Amare as Doncic becoming as good as Marion.

It's not as if there are no All Star freak athlete bigs who aren't built like a truck. KG, Cliff Robinson, Bosh, just to name a few. Note, I am not saying he is the next KG.

Who's to say he won't get stronger and defend better after he enters the league? I don't understand this assumption that the Bagley you see today is the Bagley you'll see in five years.

He may need an open lane to get to the basket, but every player has flaws in this draft. Just like Doncic is slow, can't create his own shot without a pick, and a questionable defender. The only relevant question is whether Bagley is the second best player in this daft, and I think it's a resounding yes; despite the flaws.
 
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tyguy said:
That analogy makes no sense to me. If I’m rolling the dice I’m doing it on the higher probability, which is doncic. Even if doncic wasn’t there Bagley isn’t my pick
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Why? If you're aiming for high ceiling, Bagley should be hands down the one to go with. Size, hops, motor, work ethic, skill, touch; they're all there. Most of Bagley's flaws are fixable.

What can Doncic realistically do to take him to the next level? He can't turn himself into a freak athlete, probably never going to develop the body control like a Curry, so what is it? The only thing I can think of is that he becomes a lights out shooter on Curry's level. I like Doncic and I'd be happy if the Kings draft him; but when it comes to high ceiling it's Bagley.
 
Bagley seems like a Fox type pick.

Super high ceiling but if he doesn't fill in all the holes in his game, he's not even a quality starter.

Vlade is gonna go down swinging for the fences if this is indeed the pick. I'd prefer Luka, but if the pick is Bagley, I can probably get myself hyped enough on his potential to not be super butthurt about passing on Doncic.
 
If you draft Bagley your're putting all your chips in on Fox being an all star level PG/playmaker because a shot at a Doncic level playmaker is not coming around for a long time.
 
tyguy said:
His shot creation is average in iso, great out of the pick and roll per synergy. He may struggle with switches early, but like I said it's a gamble and i'm going with highest probability.
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I agree he’s good out of the pick and roll but how is that creating your own shot. And I would say since most of his ISO his his step back I’m not sure that translates if you can’t make defenders honor your drive.
 
Kingster said:
I think we're getting carried away with Bagley not playing D. Bagley is a highly mobile big man with a very quick jump and a motor. That's exactly what you need in today's game because of the 3 point shooting. Last night I was watching a game of his against North Carolina and he went out and blocked their point guard's shot at the 3 point line due to his mobility and his quick jump. He's got the protoplasm to be a very good defender, imo.
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True Fox is quick too. I’m a Bagley supporter if we don’t go Porter but if Bagley and Fox don’t get some awareness on team defense principles (switches and help) the Kings are going to look like the keystone cops out there.
 
beb0p said:
Report: Top NBA draft prospects 'openly trying to avoid' Kings, only Marvin Bagley III wants them to draft him

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-top...-marvin-bagley-iii-wants-draft-225419368.html

I don't blame Bamba, JJJ, and Doncic if this is true.

And also shows what a class act Bagley is.
.
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Though, it turns out, the Kings aren’t a fan.
“All year, it’s not just (Kings coach Vlade Divac), but also his staff was very openly criticizing Luka, saying he’s not athletic enough. He’s too emotional. He’s not this. He’s not that,” Givony said.

“So that potential embarrassment, I think, of (Doncic) coming out and saying, “Trade me. I’m not coming to traning camp.” That’s enough to maybe steer them into thinking that they shouldn’t take him.”

This Givony fool is on my last nerve. The "criticism" of Doncic is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the writer of the article thinking Vlade is the coach. You don't think that every single GM and front office out there don't have question marks about every one of the players in the draft? Everyone has to mull over their strengths and weaknesses and Givony is basically making a smear piece by trying to make it seem like the Kings doing their scouting due diligence means they don't like the kid and are trashing him.

Then he makes up some wild ass scenario that makes no sense whatsoever because he obviously has some sort of agenda that he's pushing.
 
beb0p said:
Dude, it was in response to another poster who mentioned star wing players in a hypothetical. If Shawn Marion can be used to justify drafting Doncic, then of course franchise bigs can be used to justify drafting Bagley. There is a higher chance that Bagley become as good as Amare as Doncic becoming as good as Marion.

It's not as if there are no All Star freak athlete bigs who aren't built like a truck. KG, Cliff Robinson, Bosh, just to name a few. Note, I am not saying he is the next KG.

Who's to say he won't get stronger and defend better after he enters the league? I don't understand this assumption that the Bagley you see today is the Bagley you'll see in five years.

He may need an open lane to get to the basket, but every player has flaws in this draft. Just like Doncic is slow, can't create his own shot without a pick, and a questionable defender. The only relevant question is whether Bagley is the second best player in this daft, and I think it's a resounding yes; despite the flaws.
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I don't like the way the guy played in college and I'm projecting growth, not a complete top to bottom rebuild. Doncic does create his own shot now, but there's a question if he'll be able to do it against better athletes. Bagley needs to either add 30 pounds of muscle to be able to physically dominate without great perimeter skills or he needs to become an elite shooter or he needs to learn how to pass effectively while on the move and I think the chances of any of these happening is actually pretty remote based on the typical growth curve for 19 year olds. I project him as a good player but his chances of being elite are very small in my opinion.

He's maybe the 10th best prospect in this draft based on what I've seen. His stats in college were great but the game tape is very concerning to me and not just because of his defense. Wendell Carter was the guy setting all the screens for them -- I question if Bagley even knows how to play high level team basketball. I think he'll be exposed in the NBA. If he sounded articulate and well-studied in interviews I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but he's one of those guys that says a lot without saying anything. Consequently my take on him is that he does have a lot of potential but most likely he's going to infuriate whichever fanbase he ends up with over the next 10 years with his lack of focus and inconsistency. He'll have a great game every now and then but he probably won't ever be a leader. That's just my opinion. He's not even close to the second best player in the draft to me.
 
ESP47 said:
Though, it turns out, the Kings aren’t a fan.
“All year, it’s not just (Kings coach Vlade Divac), but also his staff was very openly criticizing Luka, saying he’s not athletic enough. He’s too emotional. He’s not this. He’s not that,” Givony said.

“So that potential embarrassment, I think, of (Doncic) coming out and saying, “Trade me. I’m not coming to traning camp.” That’s enough to maybe steer them into thinking that they shouldn’t take him.”

This Givony fool is on my last nerve. The "criticism" of Doncic is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the writer of the article thinking Vlade is the coach. You don't think that every single GM and front office out there don't have question marks about every one of the players in the draft? Everyone has to mull over their strengths and weaknesses and Givony is basically making a smear piece by trying to make it seem like the Kings doing their scouting due diligence means they don't like the kid and are trashing him.

Then he makes up some wild ass scenario that makes no sense whatsoever because he obviously has some sort of agenda that he's pushing.
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Givony is butthurt with Kings ever since he was called out by Charmichael Dave on Twitter for getting info wrong on Vlade being at Doncic's Euroleague games. In fact Vlade and Vivek have been to two of his recent games and had a private dinner with him. Now would you go to dinner with a team you are hell-bent on avoiding?
 
hrdboild said:
I don't like the way the guy played in college and I'm projecting growth, not a complete top to bottom rebuild. Doncic does create his own shot now, but there's a question if he'll be able to do it against better athletes. Bagley needs to either add 30 pounds of muscle to be able to physically dominate without great perimeter skills or he needs to become an elite shooter or he needs to learn how to pass effectively while on the move and I think the chances of any of these happening is actually pretty remote based on the typical growth curve for 19 year olds. I project him as a good player but his chances of being elite are very small in my opinion.

He's maybe the 10th best prospect in this draft based on what I've seen. His stats in college were great but the game tape is very concerning to me and not just because of his defense. Wendell Carter was the guy setting all the screens for them -- I question if Bagley even knows how to play high level team basketball. I think he'll be exposed in the NBA. If he sounded articulate and well-studied in interviews I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but he's one of those guys that says a lot without saying anything. Consequently my take on him is that he does have a lot of potential but most likely he's going to infuriate whichever fanbase he ends up with over the next 10 years with his lack of focus and inconsistency. He'll have a great game every now and then but he probably won't ever be a leader. That's just my opinion. He's not even close to the second best player in the draft to me.
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I agree; 2 games of watching him in the tournament, and I wasn't impressed. I think the Kings ought to stick with Ayton and Doncic, or maybe trade down for Jackson Jr and another pick. I like Jackson Jr defense, and it could be infectious for Cauley-Stein.
 
ESP47 said:
Look up and down the standings. It's not just KD and Curry that are winning in the same fashion. It's almost every single team in the league right now. The only outliers have big men like Embiid and AD that can do everything. Bagley is not projected to be one of those outliers. AD and Embiid in a way are basically Bagley and Bamba put together. They have the offense, rebounding and defense all rolled into one package. You'd basically just be playing the lotto if you drafted Bagley with the assumption that his defense will become as good as his offense.

I just don't think it's going back to the way it used to be without some changes to the defensive rules or to the 3 point line. Trust me, I'd rather be on your side of things because I miss watching a big man go to work in the post but you're going to see less and less of it outside of an outlier or two from here on out. Almost all these big men are developing 3 point shots, which mean they are working less and less on punishing teams inside. They're doing it because the analytics say it's more efficient to do it that way. I wish it was a fad but it's not.
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Totally agree.

While I believe AD, Cousins, KAT, Drummond, Embiid and the like could win titles with the right talent around them -- none of them have really threatened to win anything thus far. As basically stated by others, the easier path to building a winner right now is via a star wing or guard. Having an elite talent at one of those positions is like having a star QB in football ie. it's easier to win.

Doncic could be one of those players whereas Bagley, Ayton, Porter are far more likely to be a Robin to an elite wing/guards Batman if they ever wind up on a championship team. AD probably has the most all-around talent on both ends of the court as any big playing right now. But he's not impactful enough to lead a team in the same way LeBron or KD or Steph have proved they can.

If Doncic weren't in this draft, I'd be totally on board with drafting Bagley. But I feel it's foolish to pass on a talent like Luka for a player that's a bit easier (mind you not EASY, just easier) to find in other draft's.
 
jcwkings said:
Givony is butthurt with Kings ever since he was called out by Charmichael Dave on Twitter for getting info wrong on Vlade being at Doncic's Euroleague games. In fact Vlade and Vivek have been to two of his recent games and had a private dinner with him. Now would you go to dinner with a team you are hell-bent on avoiding?
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I'm sure Vlade and Vivek tracked Luka down, showed up uninvited, and then stuck him with the bill. I heard it didn't get really awkward until the next morning when Luka discovered Vlade hiding behind some house plants in his bedroom.
 
ESP47 said:
Though, it turns out, the Kings aren’t a fan.
“All year, it’s not just (Kings coach Vlade Divac), but also his staff was very openly criticizing Luka, saying he’s not athletic enough. He’s too emotional. He’s not this. He’s not that,” Givony said.

“So that potential embarrassment, I think, of (Doncic) coming out and saying, “Trade me. I’m not coming to traning camp.” That’s enough to maybe steer them into thinking that they shouldn’t take him.”

This Givony fool is on my last nerve. The "criticism" of Doncic is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the writer of the article thinking Vlade is the coach. You don't think that every single GM and front office out there don't have question marks about every one of the players in the draft? Everyone has to mull over their strengths and weaknesses and Givony is basically making a smear piece by trying to make it seem like the Kings doing their scouting due diligence means they don't like the kid and are trashing him.

Then he makes up some wild ass scenario that makes no sense whatsoever because he obviously has some sort of agenda that he's pushing.
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It's almost as if Givony is trying to steer Doncic towards a team does it not? Perhaps could he be doing the dirty work for a team trying to soil the possibilities of Doncic coming to Sacramento? Gee, I wonder.
 
I keep seeing that doncic won't give the kings his medical records. Has he given anyone his medical records? Is it one of those bs rumors where they cherry pick their info? Like when doncic didn't want to discuss the draft during Euroleague playoffs = doncic doesn't want to get drafted by the kings so he will stay in Europe :rolleyes:
 
ESP47 said:
Though, it turns out, the Kings aren’t a fan.
“All year, it’s not just (Kings coach Vlade Divac), but also his staff was very openly criticizing Luka, saying he’s not athletic enough. He’s too emotional. He’s not this. He’s not that,” Givony said.

“So that potential embarrassment, I think, of (Doncic) coming out and saying, “Trade me. I’m not coming to traning camp.” That’s enough to maybe steer them into thinking that they shouldn’t take him.”

This Givony fool is on my last nerve. The "criticism" of Doncic is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the writer of the article thinking Vlade is the coach. You don't think that every single GM and front office out there don't have question marks about every one of the players in the draft? Everyone has to mull over their strengths and weaknesses and Givony is basically making a smear piece by trying to make it seem like the Kings doing their scouting due diligence means they don't like the kid and are trashing him.

Then he makes up some wild ass scenario that makes no sense whatsoever because he obviously has some sort of agenda that he's pushing.
Click to expand...

Peaches and DC called this guy out their show today. While Peaches openly stated he would draft Bagley (DC flipped a coin and said Doncic), he defended the Kings and Doncic by saying that he's never heard anything negative about Doncic from Vlade or any of the Kings front office. He also felt the claim that Doncic wants no part of the Kings has already been proven false and that this is just a case of lazy journalism.

I wholeheartedly agree.
 
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