Martin's "D" is Teeeerrrrrrribbbbllllle!

[Kingster]

I see nothing different than last year.

Ok, when he's totally embarrassed himself, I'll grant that he'll man-up and take a charge. But otherwise? One, if he get's beat off the ball he surrenders immediately instead of continuing to chase his man to the basket. Two, he doesn't go over screens, he goes under them. Three, he will do the cardinal sin - lose sight of the ball and his man (How often have you seen his head look like a swivel, looking back and forth from man to ball?). Four, he rarely, rarely gives a hard foul. Fifth, he's terrible at coming off his man to help out on D. Sixth, he shies away from contact, many times literally backing away from somebody to not make contact. Seventh, he doesn't use as many fouls as he should. Eight, he obviously doesn't put the effort nearly as often as he should. (Right now, he's probably putting out effort on D in 2 out of 10 games.) So is it any wonder that Theus might be a little perturbed at Martin about his "D"? All I can conclude is that he either (1) doesn't have a clue how bad his "D" is, or (2) doesn't care, or (3) both. Either way, he's not pulling his weight on the defensive end, and he's certainly not playing to his potential.

 

[Gary]

I wrote something witty, than deleted it because I actually read some of your post...

You know how many charges the kid takes? I don't think he is a great defender, but you obviously aren't watching if you say he shies away from contact.

Do yourself a favor and watch tonights game, and just keep your eyes on him defensively. I will do the same, then we can discuss how much worse he is than any other 2guard in the league defensively. He is bad, but it's not "thread starting bad".

He is probably bottom 25% out of starting SG, but He takes charges. That was my main argument with your post.

 

[Bricklayer]

I would agree with much of this, but did this really a need a seperate thread?

 

[Gary]

Oh, another thing... I would rather have K-Marts production offensively and having him be bottom 25% defensively than having a guy like Maurice Evans or Matt Barnes starting in Martins place playing OK D and stinking it up offensively.

Oh BTW.. To make this thread interesting who would you rather have starting? Garcia or Martin at SG?

If we could trade Martin next season with our pick, and get a top three and then move Garcia to the starting 2 would you do it?

 

[upinsmoke]

Martin's D will improve with time he has to much talent. He needs to put some muscle on and he will.

 

[VF21]

He's not going to put on muscle. His body type isn't built for it. Muscle weighs more than fat so putting on bulk would just slow him down.

As far as his defense goes, if we're depending on Martin for our defensive focus we are in deep, deep dooty. Very few players are good at both ends of the court to the extent some around here apparently want. Not that there's no room for improvement in his game defensively but he's not the worst out there by far.

As far as not using as many fouls as he should, that's just blathertrap. Last I knew, there wasn't a requisite number of fouls a player should or shoudn't use.

 

[hrdboild]

Oh, another thing... I would rather have K-Marts production offensively and having him be bottom 25% defensively than having a guy like Maurice Evans or Matt Barnes starting in Martins place playing OK D and stinking it up offensively.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement as written. Evans isn't bad offensively, his jumpshot is streaky but he gets a lot of offensive boards and points off putbacks. Second-chance points are important too. And Barnes is a good facilitator, a good spot up shooter, and a decent rebounder for his size. Neither one is a black hole on offense and Evans has been a stopper on defense before. He's a little undersized, which is why he can't earn a starting spot anywhere, but you can't question his effort. I understand the sentiment but I don't think you're picking on the right guys here.

The reason defense is emphasized so much is that winning games in the regular season isn't the same as winning games in the post-season. When you're going against top competition every night, and they have the opportunity to make adjustments game to game, and your rotation is shortened, and you're not going to be able to rely on jumpshots falling consistently for a seven game series -- you really do need to play good defense to win. The further you get into the playoffs the more vital it is. So if you've got a guy playing 40 minutes a game and taking plays off on defense, that makes it so much harder on everyone else.

I think, along the same lines, that players do tend to step up their effort and focus when they get to the post-season. It's a little unreasonable to expect players to play hard every minute of all 82 games even when they're on a back to back or the playoffs are out of reach. And when you're the primary scorer you do earn yourself a little leeway on defense. I think that's some of the problem in Denver right now. Iverson and Anthony haven't had to focus on defense in the past but now they make up 2/3 of the lineup so they can't afford to slack anymore. And Camby can't realistically coverup for all of their mistakes. Anyway, I think the more appropriate question isn't "why is player X slacking on defense in game 67 of the regular season" but rather, has he shown the capability of playing good defense when it matters. I don't know regarding Martin. He's quick and he's long so when the focus is there, it's really just a matter of coaching at this point.

 

[Jechtsphere]

If Martin isn't already good defensively he will never be, you have to have a mind set, you have to want to play defense.

He has the physical abilities to be a good defender but can't put it all together.

 

[VF21]

If Martin isn't already good defensively he will never be, you have to have a mind set, you have to want to play defense.

He has the physical abilities to be a good defender but can't put it all together.

I think that's more important than a lot of people realize. In football, it's much easier. You either play offense or defense. In basketball, however, you can't switch out players on the run like hockey. You have to create a balance, which is where coaching really comes in. Martin just isn't a defensive specialist. Wasn't when we got him and won't be when he puts on his shoes for the last time in his career. He is showing some improvement, though, which I think is overlooked. It's something he needs to work on but to constantly act as though he used to have a defensive mindset or is consciously refusing to get one just isn't accurate.

I think he might eventually evolve into a Doug Christie-type player but that's just speculation.

 

[Bricklayer]

He's quick and he's long so when the focus is there, it's really just a matter of coaching at this point.

I think the larger concern for me is just responsibility. Kevin has been given a lot in the last few years -- annointed as the franchise guy, a $55 milliion contract -- he OWES the team his best effort on that end. He doesn't owe them great competence -- he could just suck. But the problem is that you get the distinct feeling that he does not in fact give his best effort over there, and that is just...well, lazy, irrespnsible, prima donnaish, whatever. Everybody likes playing offense, its fun, and in Kevin;s case he gets to take a high percentage of the team's shots, gets to put up the numbers, which lead to the attention and stories and big $$s. But defense, that is about hard work. Its not as fun. People rarely get big $$ contracts for great work on that end. tehy get called "roleplayer". But when you are the guy getting all of the good stuff, you OWE your teammates your best effort on the defensive end. Not greatness. But effort. And on championship teams that's what you see -- they may have weak defenders here and there, but everybody is at least going to try. They aren't going to abandon their teammates and say "you guys play defense I'm just going to leak out and pad my numbers".

Its not a coaching thing. Its an effort thing, a leadership thing, a responsibility thing. Offense is fun for a player with offensive talent. But defense is where you find what they are really made of -- that's about heart, pride, effort, and team. Its thankless, but you do it because you owe it to your teammates and fans. Kevin never has to be great, but if he isn;t even going to try that just sends a bad message.

 

[ZanesvilleFan]

Dang I must have missed something...I thought Kevin signed a PHAT contract for his offensive skills...
1. Some coaches will tell you to either go under screens (if you are guarding a not so good of shooter) or stay on your players hip and go over screens (if you are guarding a guy that will hit the outside jumper)
2. Some coaches dont want you playing help-side defense if you are on a shooter
3. I would bet that kevin is leading this team in charges
4. His offensive skills make up for his poor defense
5. Did i mention that we signed kevin for his offensive skills
6. Why would we start a thread like this when everyone knows that kevins defense needs to improve


Bottom line is that every player has certain rules they must take on. Just do the things that they are capable of doing. We dont need 5 people on the floor that can score. What we do need is a good solid pass first PG. In our case a scorer (Kevin) at the 2 guard. Someone that can step up and take the other teams best player out of the game and can contribute some on the offensive end(which could be our 3 guard), A banger to get on the glass on both ends of the court and get most of his points off of put backs (our 4 man) and last but not least and inside presence who can score and hit the 15 footer (our 5 man).

 

[CruzDude]

But the problem is that you get the distinct feeling that he does not in fact give his best effort over there, and that is just...well, lazy, irrespnsible, prima donnaish, whatever. Everybody likes playing offense, its fun, and in Kevin;s case he gets to take a high percentage of the team's shots, gets to put up the numbers, which lead to the attention and stories and big $$s.

I think the problem is RonRon who when he gets the ball doesn't pass and tries with mixed success to blast thru 2-3 defenders. Kevin takes the fewest shots per game for anyone in the NBA scoring over 20 pts/gm. He is in the top 2-3 in quantity of FT attempted and you don't get that many chances without being aggressive to the basket.

On defense, Kevin has very quick feet but not as quick with his hands. Takes the most charges on the team (quick feet again). RonRon is the only both ends player: great defender (most of the time) and 20pt scorer. No one else on the Kings has both ends covered like that. Salmons maybe, but only when he gets big minutes or when he started. Beno, no, he bothers other PG's but is not a good defender; Mikki, ehh, blocks a few down low, gets 8-10 reb a lot but is not a really good defender; Brad, well, we'll leave him out of this tho he is having his best year ever; Cisco, not bad both ends but tends to make blocks and steals after an opponent has gone by him. You get the drift.

So, to pick on Kevin is not a very smart argument IMHO. RonRon disrupts the game, the flow more than anyone. Last night EVERYONE got on their horse and played as well as they can now for 3 to 3-1/2 quarters against their rivalry then lost to the best team in the league.

 

[tyrant]

everyone had thier share of kobe in the 4th quarter. he scored 17 points. ridiculous. everyone but kobe is to blame for poor defense. we're already bad defensively. people in arco fueling the fire with boos.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think the problem is RonRon who when he gets the ball doesn't pass and tries with mixed success to blast thru 2-3 defenders. Kevin takes the fewest shots per game for anyone in the NBA scoring over 20 pts/gm. He is in the top 2-3 in quantity of FT attempted and you don't get that many chances without being aggressive to the basket.

On defense, Kevin has very quick feet but not as quick with his hands. Takes the most charges on the team (quick feet again). RonRon is the only both ends player: great defender (most of the time) and 20pt scorer. No one else on the Kings has both ends covered like that. Salmons maybe, but only when he gets big minutes or when he started. Beno, no, he bothers other PG's but is not a good defender; Mikki, ehh, blocks a few down low, gets 8-10 reb a lot but is not a really good defender; Brad, well, we'll leave him out of this tho he is having his best year ever; Cisco, not bad both ends but tends to make blocks and steals after an opponent has gone by him. You get the drift.

So, to pick on Kevin is not a very smart argument IMHO. RonRon disrupts the game, the flow more than anyone. Last night EVERYONE got on their horse and played as well as they can now for 3 to 3-1/2 quarters against their rivalry then lost to the best team in the league.

What exactly does Ron disrupting the offense have to do with Kevin's defense again?

The two are not related besides an attempt to distract from an issue with a favored player. We have had, and will have, plenty of threads about Ron's offense. This one is about Kevin on the end of the floor where we really suck.

 

[Rockmeister]

people in arco fueling the fire with boos.

What in the world are you talking about? I was at the game last night and there were NO boos.

 

[Bricklayer]

everyone had thier share of kobe in the 4th quarter. he scored 17 points. ridiculous. everyone but kobe is to blame for poor defense. we're already bad defensively. people in arco fueling the fire with boos.

Kobe was Kobe int he 4th. There were a few times when Ron, with help defense from Mikki, did everything absolutely 100% right on Kobe. Harassed him, made him change direction, challenged the shot, and he still drained them.

Kevin was the weakest of the three primary defenders on Kobe (Salmons, Artest), but it was neither his nor either of the other guys' faults when Kobe went off. It was the game's greatest closer closing.

 

[Bricklayer]

What in the world are you talking about? I was at the game last night and there were NO boos.

Maybe he was talking about booing Kobe. The crowd did seem unfortunately split down the middle between Laker fans and Kings fans. MVp chants being drowned out by boos. Luke Walton makes a shot and the combination of boos and "Luuukes" made the whole arena sound like it was booing, which could not be right, etc..

 

[tyrant]

thanks brick.

 

[Rockmeister]

Maybe he was talking about booing Kobe.

Maybe that's what tyrant meant to say this, however, just reading the post, it looks more like a run on sentence. I thought he meant the Kings fans were booing the Kings and that just wasn't true.

It actually was nice to see the arena filled up. It was really loud in the arena. It seemed there was as much Kings fans as Laker fans. By the loudness, there is no way you could not tell if this was still a rivalry. I couldn't even hear the referees blowing the whistle because it was so loud.

 

[oldenpolynice]

Martin does ok, given what he has to work with. He gets into passing lanes more this year and his steals numbers have gone up. That's really where his principle strength lies: his speed.

Mini-Mart is what he is. A great offensive weapon who moves off the ball well and reads the court with intelligence. To ask him to be a defensive stopper is a bit much. Granted, I want to see effort from him on a nightly basis and I never want him to lose sight of his man, but other than that, what can we really ask of the guy?

 

[tyrant]

lol. YESSS. mini-mart. thats his new name until he is no longer one-dimen..

lets make it an award with piksi's game threads. hahahahhaa. and the mini-mart award goes to dirk. for the foul + 2 on the final possession of the game.

 

[10bibby10]

well i also disagree with the first thread of this post...but, lol, for a thread that "wasnt worth starting" it sure is gettin quite a few replies...good post kingster...

 

[CruzDude]

What exactly does Ron disrupting the offense have to do with Kevin's defense again?

Disrupting the offense carries over to defense. When you are taken out of your game on one end (Kevin's offense) it can be difficult to pick up on the other end knowing you will very likely not get your touches. After long stretches of that, in any one game and the last month or so, it would be hard to imagine Kevin playing his "A" game without rhythm, game flow and a bunch of other team mates also out of their rhythm for the same reason. Kevin has kept his emotions under wraps for the most part all along until the past month. Now he has some flair ups. Ever wonder why? IMHO the game flow has been changed and not for the better.

 

[Glenn]

Kobe was Kobe int he 4th. There were a few times when Ron, with help defense from Mikki, did everything absolutely 100% right on Kobe. Harassed him, made him change direction, challenged the shot, and he still drained them.

Absolutely. I think we are thinking of the same plays. Remarkable basketball to watch. It was a war of the two best battling it out, Kobe and Ron. In the end, offense can beat defense in a one on one situation just as in football. Ron beats the crap out of Kobe and Kobe sinks a shot from where ever he choses. Or eventually blasts past Ron when the opportunity is there. Hats off to both.

 

[Bricklayer]

Disrupting the offense carries over to defense. When you are taken out of your game on one end (Kevin's offense) it can be difficult to pick up on the other end knowing you will very likely not get your touches. After long stretches of that, in any one game and the last month or so, it would be hard to imagine Kevin playing his "A" game without rhythm, game flow and a bunch of other team mates also out of their rhythm for the same reason. Kevin has kept his emotions under wraps for the most part all along until the past month. Now he has some flair ups. Ever wonder why? IMHO the game flow has been changed and not for the better.

That is just...terrible.

Sorry, but true.

There are players all over the league, and in every league, who bust their asses every single play on defense and rarely get to touch the ball on offense. And poor little Kevin gets to use not getting his 19th and 20th touches of the game as an excuse? Hardly. That is classic prima donnaism if true. And just as with Peja before him, I hope it is just the people making excuses for Kevin thinking that way, and not the player himself being selfish and pouting because he doesn't get to be the big star every night. Cry me a river.

 

[Kingster]

He's not going to put on muscle. His body type isn't built for it. Muscle weighs more than fat so putting on bulk would just slow him down.

As far as his defense goes, if we're depending on Martin for our defensive focus we are in deep, deep dooty. Very few players are good at both ends of the court to the extent some around here apparently want. Not that there's no room for improvement in his game defensively but he's not the worst out there by far.

As far as not using as many fouls as he should, that's just blathertrap. Last I knew, there wasn't a requisite number of fouls a player should or shoudn't use.

You Martin apologist you! Do you expect everyone to carry his water on D? Is Martin the designated offensive player - no defense required? Come on now, is he flat out dogging it most of the time on defense, or not? As for the fouls, if you see a guy not using any fouls, he's usually not playing any. Martin is a bad, bad boy. He wants to hoist the shots and have somebody else do the dirty work on D that actually wins games, especially games on the road.

 

[Kingster]

I would agree with much of this, but did this really a need a seperate thread?

I thought it needed a separate thread because when people talk about Martin playing poorly, it's usually the offense they are talking about, not the defense. I think this holds for the announcers of the game as well of the posters on this board. Thus, the separate thread.

 

[VF21]

Not an apologist, just realistic. Kevin has never been a defensive specialist and I strongly doubt he will change. I acknowledge his need to step it up but am not going to jump on the "dump on Martin" bandwagon. Sometimes the way people turn on our own players makes me ill.

Every player is fair game for criticism but the glee with which some post is just personally offensive to me.

I tried to respond fairly; if I didn't, I'm sorry. But I'm not sorry for pointing out what I thought were relavent points.

 

[Superman]

You know how many charges the kid takes?

He tried to take one on Kobe in the fourth quarter last night and got used on a spin move. Now Ron Artest got used all night, and there's no one in the NBA that can stop Kobe on a fastbreak, but Kevin got used because he was trying to take a charge instead of trying to play honest defense.

Taking charges is not a sign of a good defender. It's actually one of the most annoying things about the NBA, in my opinion. I've gone off on tangents about that many times before; no need to say anymore.

More to the point, Kevin Martin is not a good defender at all. He plays passing lanes well, but so does Mike Bibby and so does Jason Williams. Two of the worst defenders we've had on the team in recent history.

But the thing that gets me about Martin is that he does not seem to be concentrating any reasonable amount of effort on the defensive end of the floor. He does "dog it" on defense as Kingster asserts. And that bothers the hell out of me. I hate to see a player standing around on defense, not putting forth the effort that they should be.

As 21 mentioned, though, if we're hoping in Kevin Martin to be a key defensive player for us, then we have huge problems.

 

[tyrant]

He tried to take one on Kobe in the fourth quarter last night and got used on a spin move. Now Ron Artest got used all night, and there's no one in the NBA that can stop Kobe on a fastbreak, but Kevin got used because he was trying to take a charge instead of trying to play honest defense.

Taking charges is not a sign of a good defender. It's actually one of the most annoying things about the NBA, in my opinion. I've gone off on tangents about that many times before; no need to say anymore.

More to the point, Kevin Martin is not a good defender at all. He plays passing lanes well, but so does Mike Bibby and so does Jason Williams. Two of the worst defenders we've had on the team in recent history.

But the thing that gets me about Martin is that he does not seem to be concentrating any reasonable amount of effort on the defensive end of the floor. He does "dog it" on defense as Kingster asserts. And that bothers the hell out of me. I hate to see a player standing around on defense, not putting forth the effort that they should be.

As 21 mentioned, though, if we're hoping in Kevin Martin to be a key defensive player for us, then we have huge problems.

major problems. and good post on mini-mart.