Making the case for DeWayne Dedmon:

[bajaden]

Personally, I have my sights set higher, but wanting and getting are two different things. So while in one of my more realistic moods, I thought I would compare Dedmon to Willie, with the idea, that if Dedmon is cheaper, then maybe that's the way to go. Of course there will be quite a few players out there that will be cheaper. The question is, are they better, or at least equal to Willie. I've watched as much film as I could find, along with looking at his game logs from last season.

The first thing that leaps out at me in the game logs, is the inconsistency from game to game. Very similar to Willie, the difference being, I know the circumstance surrounding Willie, and I don't with Dedmon. I believe that Dedmon had double digit rebounds only 11 or 12 times. On the other hand, he was playing with John Collins who is a rebounding machine. Dedmon operates in the pick and roll very well, but Trey Young ran it more with Collins than he did with Dedmon. Willie is a better passer than Dedmon, but Dedmon is a very good 3 pt shooter, averaging 38.2% for the year.

The fairest way to compare the two is with per 36 numbers.

Willie's per 36: 15.7 ppg - 11.0 rpg - 3.2 apg - 1.6 stl's - 0.8 blk's

Dedmon's per 36: 15.5 ppg - 10.7 rpg - 2.0 apg - 1.5 stl's - 1.6 blk's

As you can see, the points and rebound numbers are almost the same. Ditto the steals. Willie has an advantage in assists, but Dedmon is a much better shot blocker. Last season Dedmon was paid 7.2 mil and I believe Willie was paid around 6 mil. So, can Dedmon be had for considerably less money than Willie, and if so, is that the route we should take? What if the money is equal, what then? Would Dedmon put up better numbers on the Kings, or would they be similar playing next to Bagley. One advantage of course is that Dedmon can clear the other teams center out of the post, or make them pay a price, making it easier for Bagley to post up.

In many ways, Dedmon is a very good fit for the Kings with his ability to stretch the floor. I think one of the reasons Joerger didn't want to start Bagley was because both Willie and Bag's took up space in the lane, and when Willie moved out of the lane, his defender often cheated down to double. That wouldn't be a problem with Dedmon on the floor. They would actually compliment each other. I'm not saying that Dedmon is the be all/end all. That would probably be Vucevic, but he will likely cost around 25 mil a year, while Dedmon might be gotten for somewhere between 8 and 12 mil a year. I think Willie's asking price is going to be around 18 mil. Of course asking and getting aren't the same thing.

It's possible that the Hawks will offer more than the 12 mil. They don't really have anyone on their roster at center that's better than Dedmon. I don't think they want to play Collins at center, but could be wrong. Or they could have a target in free agency, or the draft. Dedmon and Willie's defensive rating is almost the same as well, but if you break it down, Dedmon wins the post battle while Willie wins on the perimeter. In case you can't remember who Dedmon is, here's one of those video's that makes you into an all star.

Just for the hell of it, I thought I give mention to a player no one is talking about very much. Jonas Valanciunas. I would have made a case for him, but he has an opt in of 18 mil, and I think he would be crazy not to take that money. But if he does opt out, he'll likely be asking for that amount or more. However here are his per 36 numbers for comparison.

Valanciunas per 36: 25.9 ppg - 13.9 rpg - 2.8 apg - 0.4 stl's - 2.0 blocks.

Pretty good numbers, no? Valanciunas is more of a traditional center, but he is a good post defender, and while he didn't put up good averages last season, he can step out and shoot the three. And, I believe he's still only 26 years old. Food for thought.

 

[kingsboi]

underrated player. he would be a solid big off the bench but definitely not starter material in my eyes.

 

[bajaden]

underrated player. he would be a solid big off the bench but definitely not starter material in my eyes.

Well, he's starting for the Hawks. I guess it depends on what you want out of your starting center. I would prefer Anthony Davis, but I just don't think that will happen. Truth is, the pickings are slim unless you can land a big name. Vucevic is my first choice, but he'll be expensive, and we have some of our core players coming up for extensions. I would say draft one, but we don't have a 1st rd pick. I would love to acquire one and grab Bol Bol, but it takes two to tango.

Dedmon is a player that can be of value with the right players around him, and I believe the Kings fit that bill. If nothing else he can fill the need for a couple of years giving us time to find a long term solution.

 

[ockingsfan]

Dedmon would be a nice backup plan.

He could fill in at center for the time being, if Willie prices himself out of the Kings range or we can't sign or trade for anyone else.

Dedmon seems like an ideal backup center and spot starter. He would help space the floor nicely. He would be a good pickup, if the higher end starters are not attainable.

I think the key for the Kings in a pace offense is that we need someone at Center and/or Power Forward that can help space the floor. One of them needs to be a higher volume, good percentage 3 point shooter.

That is where the problem of a WCS and Bagley front court becomes an issue. Unless Bagley becomes a 35-40% 3 point shooter ASAP, pairing him with WCS long term would become problematic.

If Bagley does develop his 3 point shot this summer and takes a Fox like leap in his 3 point shooting, that opens the door to re-sign Willie. That's a big IF and the Kings won't know until training camp rolls around if Bagley shooting has improved.

That is why I think Vlade will go shopping for a 3 point shooting Center this summer. The other alternative is to start Bagley at Center and Bjelicia at Power Forward next season. But the defense would be very porous.

 

[Sac.1989]

I see him as a primary target based on fit. He ticks all our boxes and should be affordable. I do see the hawks wanting to keep him around though. He just had a career year and fits well with young. We will have to overpay for his services but can afford it.

The only question mark i have is he has missed close to 40 games the past two seasons and at 29, you dont expect him to become fitter and buck the trend

 

[LPKingsFan]

Dedmon would be a nice backup plan.

He could fill in at center for the time being, if Willie prices himself out of the Kings range or we can't sign or trade for anyone else.

Dedmon seems like an ideal backup center and spot starter. He would help space the floor nicely. He would be a good pickup, if the higher end starters are not attainable.

I think the key for the Kings in a pace offense is that we need someone at Center and/or Power Forward that can help space the floor. One of them needs to be a higher volume, good percentage 3 point shooter.

That is where the problem of a WCS and Bagley front court becomes an issue. Unless Bagley becomes a 35-40% 3 point shooter ASAP, pairing him with WCS long term would become problematic.

If Bagley does develop his 3 point shot this summer and takes a Fox like leap in his 3 point shooting, that opens the door to re-sign Willie. That's a big IF and the Kings won't know until training camp rolls around if Bagley shooting has improved.

That is why I think Vlade will go shopping for a 3 point shooting Center this summer. The other alternative is to start Bagley at Center and Bjelicia at Power Forward next season. But the defense would be very porous.

The Bagley at 4 or 5 debate really is central. The question is whether you think Bagley will become a 3-point threat or a rim protector first.

 

[ockingsfan]

The only question mark i have is he has missed close to 40 games the past two seasons and at 29, you dont expect him to become fitter and buck the trend

A younger version of Dedmon is Washington's Thomas Bryant.

Bryant could become a target for Vlade and Luke this summer. Luke was the coach of the Lakers, when Bryant was signed last year. Maybe Luke can get a reunion with his young pupil if the price is right.

Washington has both Bryant and Bobby Portis as free agents this summer. They will have a tough time retaining both, unless they want to go into the Luxury tax again. It may come down to which one they value more and maybe we can sneak in there with a big offer for Bryant right at the start of free agency, while the Wizards are still hashing things out.

 

[NME]

That's great if Bagley can become a 3 point threat, but I don't want to routinely park him outside the arc so that Willie can hang near the basket. Whoever we get at center needs to be the one clearing space for Bagley inside.

 

[SacTownKid]

Dedmon would certainly be a solid pick up and while he doesn't have the spectacular play ability that Willie has, what he does have is consistency and the Kings need that more than brief flashes in only brief opportunities given. The problem is with players like him and the bigger names is it comes down to the competition in the market place. I know Vucevic was a name tossed around quite a bit but practically before the Magic were put on ice they came out and said he's priority 1A. Players like Valanciunas, Gasol, and many of the bigger names is them being even a remote possibility relies on the notion that the teams they are currently on are ready to move on. And a few of those teams made big trades to get them so it seems unlikely. Bryant is interesting but I see no reason why the Wiz would move on at this point unless the pay out is ridiculous and for Sac doing that would be unwise.

I continue to believe that going after unheralded diamond in the rough types like a Jordan Bell or Noah Vonleh could prove to be a wiser move long term. Deandre Jordan could be attainable since it's unknown whether the Knicks are infatuated with him. I've heard rumors of him being a piece of the puzzle in landing KD. Eh, who knows but I doubt it. The other option is trading for some depth at the big spot and allowing other teams to gain more cap space so the trade cost is relatively cheap like the Barnes deal.

 

[jiimbob]

Bell, Vonleh, Bryant, or Dedmon, I would be happy as hell to walk away wth any of them. The first three are young so plenty of room to grow however, Dedmon at 29 has only played the sport for 11 years so the wear and tear might be negated.
Love you Willi but tired of hearing about your inconsistency.
I'm offically on the find a way to get Bol Bol wagon now so whatever make something happen Vlade.

 

[kingsboi]

Well, he's starting for the Hawks. I guess it depends on what you want out of your starting center. I would prefer Anthony Davis, but I just don't think that will happen. Truth is, the pickings are slim unless you can land a big name. Vucevic is my first choice, but he'll be expensive, and we have some of our core players coming up for extensions. I would say draft one, but we don't have a 1st rd pick. I would love to acquire one and grab Bol Bol, but it takes two to tango.

Dedmon is a player that can be of value with the right players around him, and I believe the Kings fit that bill. If nothing else he can fill the need for a couple of years giving us time to find a long term solution.

how many wins did the Hawks have? Point is, if he is your starting center, your team most likely won't be very good or won't be a Playoff team, which is what the Kings are aiming to be next season, I hope.

 

[kingsfan1984]

I like dedmon alot. Round peg for a round hole. Like Javel Mcgee He knows his role too so wont try and take shots thatvshould he going to bags or giles fox or buddy bogs etc.

Bryant finding very intriguing.

Not high on Vucevic. At the price he will demand at the center spot he needs to be a better rim protector in my eyes. Also dont see him being happy being relegated to a 3rd option behind Bags and Fox/Buddy.

I would much rather go with fit and value for 2 centers and use our cap loading the bench

 

[jcassio]

I think Dedmon would be a good fit for us for the next year or two. Maybe three. After that he's on the downside of his career and, at best, would be an end-of-bench guy. He'd give us more rim protection than what we've had with Willie. Per 36 min, he's actually had several years in which he averaged 2+ blocks/game. As a rebounder, he's no better (or worse) than Willie. But best of all, he'd help stretch the floor with his 3 pt shooting. All in all, he improves the team and is afforable without compromising our ability to extend Buddie and Bogi.

 

[ESP47]

I think Dedmon would be a good fit for us for the next year or two. Maybe three. After that he's on the downside of his career and, at best, would be an end-of-bench guy. He'd give us more rim protection than what we've had with Willie. Per 36 min, he's actually had several years in which he averaged 2+ blocks/game. As a rebounder, he's no better (or worse) than Willie. But best of all, he'd help stretch the floor with his 3 pt shooting. All in all, he improves the team and is afforable without compromising our ability to extend Buddie and Bogi.

Problem is that overall he's not nearly as good as Willie defensively despite being a better rim protector. I think the main positive with Dedmon in the lineup would be offensive versatility but I really don't think offense is the main problem with the team.

 

[Sac.1989]

Problem is that overall he's not nearly as good as Willie defensively despite being a better rim protector. I think the main positive with Dedmon in the lineup would be offensive versatility but I really don't think offense is the main problem with the team.

Good points.

I think that whilst offense isnt a problem per say, with bagley and fox more or less being able to dictate what they want, offensive synergy as a collective could be better.

Case in point is the impact of Bjelica. We are night and day a better offensive unit with the skillset he brings. Fox is a much great point guard and threat when the spacing BJelly offers is there. Our results in the first half of the season were strongly related to Nemenja's performance and when he trailed off so did we. Joerger tried to get similar results and production by moving Barnes to the 4, but it failed. Barnes a natural 3, isnt going to offer you the same production as a natural stretch 4 which is what Bjelica is.

Bagley adding range is the most important piece of this offseason beyond everyone staying healthy, that and who will be his front court running mate.

Bringing in someone like Dedmon, who is a natural 5, rebounds well and can step out and consistently hit the 3 overall adds to the offensive synergy we need to continue our upward trajectory.

Being able to start Bagley alongside a 5 who can also hit from range not only strengthens our starting 5 overall but it is a key component of our overall offensive scheme.

 

[bajaden]

A younger version of Dedmon is Washington's Thomas Bryant.

Bryant could become a target for Vlade and Luke this summer. Luke was the coach of the Lakers, when Bryant was signed last year. Maybe Luke can get a reunion with his young pupil if the price is right.

Washington has both Bryant and Bobby Portis as free agents this summer. They will have a tough time retaining both, unless they want to go into the Luxury tax again. It may come down to which one they value more and maybe we can sneak in there with a big offer for Bryant right at the start of free agency, while the Wizards are still hashing things out.

You went and stole my thunder! I was going to do a "Making a case for Thomas Bryant" as well. I like Bryant's potential. I also like Portis, but he's been a bit of a head case at times, so I would lean toward Bryant, who is younger than some of the other candidates. I thought Bryant played well with the Lakers, and was surprised when they let him go.

 

[bajaden]

how many wins did the Hawks have? Point is, if he is your starting center, your team most likely won't be very good or won't be a Playoff team, which is what the Kings are aiming to be next season, I hope.

So your telling me that if Dedmon was the starting center on the Warriors, they wouldn't make the playoffs, or contend for a championship? Dedmon isn't intended to be a difference maker, an impact player, but if you have the right talent around him, he could be a very good complimentary player. Are you seriously going to blame the Hawks record on Dedmon? Take Dedmon off that team and put Anthony Davis there instead, and do they compete for a championship? I think not, they just don't have enough talent, and the talent they do have is mostly inexperienced.

Look, Dedmon isn't my first choice, but if you can't get your first, or second choice, it may come down to either Willie, or Dedmon, or Bryant, etc. That's what this thread is about.

 

[bajaden]

Bell, Vonleh, Bryant, or Dedmon, I would be happy as hell to walk away wth any of them. The first three are young so plenty of room to grow however, Dedmon at 29 has only played the sport for 11 years so the wear and tear might be negated.
Love you Willi but tired of hearing about your inconsistency.
I'm offically on the find a way to get Bol Bol wagon now so whatever make something happen Vlade.

The problem I have with both Bell, who I think the Warriors want to keep, and Vonleh, is that both would be undersized centers. Both players are 6'9" or under. Dedmon is a 7 footer, and Bryant is 6'11", so both can match up with the bigger centers in the league. I can't see Vonleh guarding Gobert. I liked Vonleh coming out of Indiana, but so far he hasn't done anything to convince me he'd be any better than Willie. Both Vonleh's and Bell's per 36 numbers pale when compared to either Dedmon's or Willie's, both of whom are legit 7 footers.

 

[bajaden]

Problem is that overall he's not nearly as good as Willie defensively despite being a better rim protector. I think the main positive with Dedmon in the lineup would be offensive versatility but I really don't think offense is the main problem with the team.

Well, Dedmon had a defensive rating of 109 and Willie had a rating of 108, so there's not a lot of overall difference there. Dedmon is a better post defender, and Willie is the better perimeter defender. So it really comes down to pick your poison. Offensively, Dedmon is probably the better overall fit when you consider how his offensive strengths affect his teammates. While he can't run the floor as well as Willie (who can) he's not a plodder either.

 

[ESP47]

Well, Dedmon had a defensive rating of 109 and Willie had a rating of 108, so there's not a lot of overall difference there. Dedmon is a better post defender, and Willie is the better perimeter defender. So it really comes down to pick your poison. Offensively, Dedmon is probably the better overall fit when you consider how his offensive strengths affect his teammates. While he can't run the floor as well as Willie (who can) he's not a plodder either.

Defensive rating is too reliant on the team you're playing for. For example, Dedmon was a 99 with the Spurs just 2 years earlier and then jumped up to 107 and 109 the next 2 years with the Hawks.

You're right about their strengths and weaknesses. The uptick in offense should be overall better for the Kings but I do still worry about the overall defense of the team going forward. Really hoping Giles turns into a poor mans Draymond to help cure the lack of defense.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Case in point is the impact of Bjelica. We are night and day a better offensive unit with the skillset he brings. Fox is a much great point guard and threat when the spacing BJelly offers is there. Our results in the first half of the season were strongly related to Nemenja's performance and when he trailed off so did we. Joerger tried to get similar results and production by moving Barnes to the 4, but it failed. Barnes a natural 3, isnt going to offer you the same production as a natural stretch 4 which is what Bjelica is.

Bagley adding range is the most important piece of this offseason beyond everyone staying healthy, that and who will be his front court running mate.

Good points. But I wonder if the other path is to get someone who can play the Bjelica role on a consistent basis, and hope Bagley develops his defense sooner rather than later. His length is limiting, but I remember him blocking some shots in impressive fashion thanks to his elite second jump.

 

[kingsfan1984]

Kings should sign both Dedmon and Bryant.

 

[ockingsfan]

You went and stole my thunder! I was going to do a "Making a case for Thomas Bryant" as well. I like Bryant's potential. I also like Portis, but he's been a bit of a head case at times, so I would lean toward Bryant, who is younger than some of the other candidates. I thought Bryant played well with the Lakers, and was surprised when they let him go.

What kind of offer do you think we would need to offer Thomas Bryant, a restricted free agent, at the start of free agency to have Washington not match?

Seeing that they have to re-sign Bobby Portis and Trevor Ariza too and have to pay Mahimni $16 million and Dwight Howard $5.6 million next season.

Also, Thomas Bryant has Early Bird rights with Washington, so depending on how they re-sign their other free agents, it may prevent them from going way over the salary cap to re-sign him, if we give him a large enough deal.

We may have to offer a contract in the $12-14 million or more range for them not to match?

 

[ockingsfan]

Kings should sign both Dedmon and Bryant.

I think we need to concentrate on adding one quality big this summer, be it one of WCS, Dedmon, Bryant, Brook Lopez, etc.

We need to keep the minutes open for Giles to get PT. You don't want to overcrowd the front court, because we also have Bagley and Bjelicia that need minutes. You also need to conserve cap space to upgrade other positions/bench.

 

[Sac.1989]

You went and stole my thunder! I was going to do a "Making a case for Thomas Bryant" as well. I like Bryant's potential. I also like Portis, but he's been a bit of a head case at times, so I would lean toward Bryant, who is younger than some of the other candidates. I thought Bryant played well with the Lakers, and was surprised when they let him go.

I like the sound of Bryant and would appreciate that thread if it were to be started

 

[bajaden]

Defensive rating is too reliant on the team you're playing for. For example, Dedmon was a 99 with the Spurs just 2 years earlier and then jumped up to 107 and 109 the next 2 years with the Hawks.

You're right about their strengths and weaknesses. The uptick in offense should be overall better for the Kings but I do still worry about the overall defense of the team going forward. Really hoping Giles turns into a poor mans Draymond to help cure the lack of defense.

Well your preaching to the choir as far as defensive ratings go, but at the moment, other than my eyeballs, it's about the only stat I can throw out there, for whatever worth it is. Harrison Barnes had a good defensive rating when with the Warriors, and it went down the toilet when he joined the Mav's. Did he suddenly become a bad defender? Of course not, he just happened to be on a bad defensive team. Barnes rating on the Kings isn't great either, but he more than passes the eyeball test as a good defender.

If the Kings can improve their overall perimeter defense, and not have to rely on someone like Willie to come out and stop the ball, then Willie won't be missed that much. Sorry Willie, I will miss you to some extent if you don't come back, but that's life in the big city, or small city as it be.

 

[ESP47]

Well your preaching to the choir as far as defensive ratings go, but at the moment, other than my eyeballs, it's about the only stat I can throw out there, for whatever worth it is. Harrison Barnes had a good defensive rating when with the Warriors, and it went down the toilet when he joined the Mav's. Did he suddenly become a bad defender? Of course not, he just happened to be on a bad defensive team. Barnes rating on the Kings isn't great either, but he more than passes the eyeball test as a good defender.

If the Kings can improve their overall perimeter defense, and not have to rely on someone like Willie to come out and stop the ball, then Willie won't be missed that much. Sorry Willie, I will miss you to some extent if you don't come back, but that's life in the big city, or small city as it be.

I don't know if it was coaching or WCS himself or what but something was just amiss with the defense. Other than Buddy, the Kings starters weren't terrible perimeter defenders. It just seemed unnecessary to have WCS on the perimeter so often with no one to protect the rim. The Rockets have a couple of bad perimeter defenders starting for them every game, yet they still have Capela defending the rim and switching when need be. The Kings just have no force down there that puts fear in the eyes of any of their opponents.

I'm hoping the new coach, whether it be Walton or someone else, has a better paint protecting defensive scheme than Joerger did.

 

[jiimbob]

Nice thread. I hope the FO is as focused on the center need as many of us. It is Vlade though and he loved drafting bigs.
Bryant sounds the most intrigueing from this debate due to size, yeah centers over 6'9" still have an appeal, and age.
If $12-14 mil a year is what it takes to put Washington out of the race that doesn't sound like a massive overpay or does it.

 

[bajaden]

What kind of offer do you think we would need to offer Thomas Bryant, a restricted free agent, at the start of free agency to have Washington not match?

Seeing that they have to re-sign Bobby Portis and Trevor Ariza too and have to pay Mahimni $16 million and Dwight Howard $5.6 million next season.

Also, Thomas Bryant has Early Bird rights with Washington, so depending on how they re-sign their other free agents, it may prevent them from going way over the salary cap to re-sign him, if we give him a large enough deal.

We may have to offer a contract in the $12-14 million or more range for them not to match?

I think Bryant would be happy to make around 8 mil a year. The question is, would the Wiz match that. The Wiz are presently committed to $89,516,399.00 in salaries. They have a team option o Jabari Parker, and if they exercise it, that would bring their committed salaries up to $109,516,399.00. Or basically right at the projected cap.

They have five players that they need to make qualifying offers to. Sam Dekker, Tomas Satoransky, Bobby Portis, Chasson Randle, and Thomas Bryant. Bryant's cap hold isn't much at $3,021,354.00. He only made $ 1,378,242.00 last season. Bryant still falls under the mantle of an unproven player. So and offer of around 8 mil is about right to my mind. I can't imagine them letting Tomas Satoransky get away, He's another player I would target. He was their starting PG after Wall went down, and played extremely well. He's unique at 6'7". He averaged 5 assists a game, and shot 39.5% from the three.

Both Jeff Green and Trevor Ariza will become unrestricted free agents. They'll probably have to make a choice between Bryant and Portis, who also had a very good year. In short, the Wiz have some tough choices.

 

[kingsboi]

So your telling me that if Dedmon was the starting center on the Warriors, they wouldn't make the playoffs, or contend for a championship? Dedmon isn't intended to be a difference maker, an impact player, but if you have the right talent around him, he could be a very good complimentary player. Are you seriously going to blame the Hawks record on Dedmon? Take Dedmon off that team and put Anthony Davis there instead, and do they compete for a championship? I think not, they just don't have enough talent, and the talent they do have is mostly inexperienced.

Look, Dedmon isn't my first choice, but if you can't get your first, or second choice, it may come down to either Willie, or Dedmon, or Bryant, etc. That's what this thread is about.

no where in my post did I indicate that Dedmon is the reason for the Hawks record. I was simply pointing out that he is starting for a lottery team. He would not be starting for any Playoff team unless you are the 7th or 8th seed in the East. If the options are between Willie, Dedmon and Bryant, I'll go ahead and take Bryant and call it a day. Find another big in the draft if need be.