Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)

[The_Jamal]

At least Bagley has looked better the last 5 or 6 games. Averaging something like 16 and 10 over that span.

Something slightly interesting:

In the 4 games he's gotten over 30 minutes this year, here's his splits:

32.2 MPG
19 PPG
10.0 RPG
2.0 APG
2.0 BPG
1.5 TOV
65% TS
6.25 FTA/game
20.9% USG

He'd have to prove he could do it over the course of a full season obviously, but those numbers would put him right in the conversation for ROY. At the very least, think it shows he needs more time.

 

[John Galt]

Mitchel vs Fox yr 1....it was gut wrenching watching honestly

Yr 2 Fox looks like he could be the better player.

Luka vs Bags....Luka is a pudgy dude that I question how much he will put into his off seasons to improve that body. To the eye he looks like he can't pull himself away from the cheeseburger stand. Truly settling into PF (power fat) player. Working hard to be that post defense player that can't be moved except by the sight of candy

Reading the tea leaves, Bagley has the mindset on and OFF the court to rise to greatness where Lukas will be training to be #1 in the hotdogs eating contest. He is like those child stars that flame out because of the early game. Basketballs Bieber

omg I barely ever visit this thread, but roflmao - great post I agree completely.

 

[SLAB]

So when Luka plays bad, am I allowed to say thank god we drafted Bagley or is that only allowed when Luka has a couple highlights and all of you swoon over him and lament about how you wish the Kings drafted him. Just curious.

You can do it, but you’ve only had roughly two chances to do it so far, while Bagley has had quite a few more stinkers. (Or not necessarily stinkers. Just non-factor types) So enjoy it!

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

So when Luka plays bad, am I allowed to say thank god we drafted Bagley or is that only allowed when Luka has a couple highlights and all of you swoon over him and lament about how you wish the Kings drafted him. Just curious.

You can do it, but you’ve only had roughly two chances to do it so far, while Bagley has had quite a few more stinkers. (Or not necessarily stinkers. Just non-factor types) So enjoy it!

Otherwise known as "Pulling a Napear™".

 

[Warhawk]

I was afraid to come in here and read the discussion, because I knew it would hurt... And it does. I like what Marvin in showing for us, but passing on Doncic was a mistake. And some of us knew it from the beginning. So sad to see him doing what he's doing in a Mavs jersey, when he could be doing the same for the Kings. Still I can't explain how Vlade passed on him.

Just quoting this because it was concise. Not specific to you, Mass.

I love how everyone is confident in making the decision on if we made the right choice 20 games into their rookie season. I wanted Luka. I'm fine with what Bagley is showing so far and his development. I'm willing to give it a few years to see how everything shakes out, though. Why is everyone in such an all-fired hurry to have a "hot take" and rip everyone who disagrees, especially when the facts are still years away from being evident?

I really just don't get it. At all.

 

[ESP47]

Something slightly interesting:

In the 4 games he's gotten over 30 minutes this year, here's his splits:

32.2 MPG
19 PPG
10.0 RPG
2.0 APG
2.0 BPG
1.5 TOV
65% TS
6.25 FTA/game
20.9% USG

He'd have to prove he could do it over the course of a full season obviously, but those numbers would put him right in the conversation for ROY. At the very least, think it shows he needs more time.

But also remember he probably played 30 minutes in those games because he was playing well enough early on to earn those minutes. In some of the other games he may have gotten the hook early because he was playing poorly. If given the minutes I could easily see him being about the best rookie we've had since what, Tyreke and Demarcus? But I think he's still a ways off from playing winning ball.

 

[kingsboi]

Just quoting this because it was concise. Not specific to you, Mass.

I love how everyone is confident in making the decision on if we made the right choice 20 games into their rookie season. I wanted Luka. I'm fine with what Bagley is showing so far and his development. I'm willing to give it a few years to see how everything shakes out, though. Why is everyone in such an all-fired hurry to have a "hot take" and rip everyone who disagrees, especially when the facts are still years away from being evident?

I really just don't get it. At all.

it's said by Neurologists that the human brain is the most complex organism in the human body to understand

 

[63royals]

... I really just don't get it. At all.

"Both look good already and potentially great -- let's sit back and watch how it develops" is, for anyone who knows basketball well, the most reasonable way to look at this situation. However, that's not good for sports media that needs new content all the time. So they love to put on the idiots who claim to have it all figured out, because they annoy people, which leads to more page hits. This has led to a situation where people who make absolute pronouncements about Luka vs. Bagley after 20 games are taken seriously. Plus, those of us who know better aren't posting about this because ... ya know ... it's too early to tell.

 

[Joshoua]

This is why I had Doncic 1 and JJJ at 2 over Ayton. If you draft big that high he has to be an elite defender or you’ll be in trouble

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/30/18118743/deandre-ayton-defense-wendell-carter-jaren-jackson

Ayton is allowing opponents to shoot 65.6% within 6ft I’d the rim absurd. He’s dead last ok that catigory they’ll regret not pairing Booker/Luka

 

[dude12]

This is why I had Doncic 1 and JJJ at 2 over Ayton. If you draft big that high he has to be an elite defender or you’ll be in trouble

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/30/18118743/deandre-ayton-defense-wendell-carter-jaren-jackson

Ayton is allowing opponents to shoot 65.6% within 6ft I’d the rim absurd. He’s dead last ok that catigory they’ll regret not pairing Booker/Luka

The Mavericks hide Doncic on defense. Besides, don’t rookies get the opportunity to improve on defense or any other parts of their game? Given time, Ayton will improve on D.

 

[Kingsfan23]

I got Bagley as the 4th big right now behind JJJ/Carter/Ayton too until he improves his BBIQ, floor game on both sides. Bagley has been improving and going in the right direction, though

As we see with the current rumors, Vlade could already be in trouble for this pick. It was of importance

 

[Padrino]

I got Bagley as the 4th big right now behind JJJ/Carter/Ayton too until he improves his BBIQ, floor game on both sides. Bagley has been improving and going in the right direction, though

As we see with the current rumors, Vlade could already be in trouble for this pick. It was of importance

This is such a weird perspective to me. The Kings are a young team outperforming expectations while sitting at .500 more than a quarter of the way through the season in an absolutely bonkers Western Conference with a rookie who is performing well off the bench. If Vlade's job is ever "in trouble," it will have nothing to do with Marvin Bagley, whose per 36 numbers would easily put him in conversation for ROY. With time, he'll be a long-term starter, and with time, he could easily develop into a long-term all-star.

I really like Luka Doncic a lot. He's looked great to start the season. But a certain segment of the fanbase really needs to stop looking for every excuse to bemoan the fact that Doncic isn't a King, to desperately hang on every single whisper of front office discord, to point out every single stumble in Bagley's rookie season, to foam at the mouth over every single Doncic highlight, all in service to the notion that the Kings got it "wrong" when they drafted Bagley over Doncic. It's so blatantly transparent. It borders on absolute mania, a psychosis the likes of which Sacramento hasn't seen since Peja Stojakovic wore a Kings jersey.

Doncic is being given a massive leash with which to work during his rookie season, and he's running with it. Marvin hasn't had that kind of leash in Sacramento, but he's performed quite well in the minutes he's been given. Yes, it's amazing to watch Doncic work with his limited athleticism to get his shots off, but all of that extra effort and dancing with the ball is going to wear him down across 82 games until he gets into better shape. His defense has likewise left a ton to be desired. He just looks unable to keep up with NBA-quality athletes on that side of the floor.

By contrast, Marvin's athleticism and motor are completely off the charts, and his effort on defense has been really encouraging (if not always the results). He also looks so ridiculously fluid and decisive when he's inside the paint (he's like the anti-Jason Thompson). His lack of a consistent 3-point shot will be a hindrance, of course, until he develops the kind of outside shot that NBA teams require of PF's today. But there's certainly no reason to think that Vlade or the Kings are somehow "in trouble" because they didn't draft Doncic.

And the notion that Bagley is being outperformed by all of the other lottery bigs is, quite frankly, a crock of sh*t. This lottery was loaded. There's lots of talent. I like Jackson, Carter, and Ayton, but if you're watching them and not witnessing three bigs who are likewise suffering from rookie lapses of BBIQ, then you're clearly not arguing in good faith. JJJ, in particular, has a habit of playing very loose, and has been prone to plenty of boneheaded mistakes so far this season, despite impressing overall. And Ayton has been even more pathetic on defense than scouts warned coming into his first NBA season (and I was somebody who was really hoping that he might fall to the Kings on draft day). You want to talk about poor defensive IQ? If things continue as they are, Ayton may very well finish his rookie season as one of the worst defenders in the league at his position.

Point is, you see what you want to see, and some of you Dreamers-for-Doncic will quite literally seize on any scrap that helps you cling to your world view.

 

[Kingsfan23]

This is such a weird perspective to me. The Kings are a young team outperforming expectations while sitting at .500 more than a quarter of the way through the season in an absolutely bonkers Western Conference with a rookie who is performing well off the bench. If Vlade's job is ever "in trouble," it will have nothing to do with Marvin Bagley, whose per 36 numbers would easily put him in conversation for ROY. With time, he'll be a long-term starter, and with time, he could easily develop into a long-term all-star.

I really like Luka Doncic a lot. He's looked great to start the season. But a certain segment of the fanbase really needs to stop looking for every excuse to bemoan the fact that Doncic isn't a King, to desperately hang on every single whisper of front office discord, to point out every single stumble in Bagley's rookie season, to foam at the mouth over every single Doncic highlight, all in service to the notion that the Kings got it "wrong" when they drafted Bagley over Doncic. It's so blatantly transparent. It borders on absolute mania, a psychosis the likes of which Sacramento hasn't seen since Peja Stojakovic wore a Kings jersey.

Doncic is being given a massive leash with which to work during his rookie season, and he's running with it. Marvin hasn't had that kind of leash in Sacramento, but he's performed quite well in the minutes he's been given. Yes, it's amazing to watch Doncic work with his limited athleticism to get his shots off, but all of that extra effort and dancing with the ball is going to wear him down across 82 games until he gets into better shape. His defense has likewise left a ton to be desired. He just looks unable to keep up with NBA-quality athletes on that side of the floor.

By contrast, Marvin's athleticism and motor are completely off the charts, and his effort on defense has been really encouraging (if not always the results). He also looks so ridiculously fluid and decisive when he's inside the paint (he's like the anti-Jason Thompson). His lack of a consistent 3-point shot will be a hindrance, of course, until he develops the kind of outside shot that NBA teams require of PF's today. But there's certainly no reason to think that Vlade or the Kings are somehow "in trouble" because they didn't draft Doncic.

And the notion that Bagley is being outperformed by all of the other lottery bigs is, quite frankly, a crock of sh*t. This lottery was loaded. There's lots of talent. I like Jackson, Carter, and Ayton, but if you're watching them and not witnessing three bigs who are likewise suffering from rookie lapses of BBIQ, then you're clearly not arguing in good faith. JJJ, in particular, has a habit of playing very loose, and has been prone to plenty of boneheaded mistakes so far this season, despite impressing overall. And Ayton has been even more pathetic on defense than scouts warned coming into his first NBA season (and I was somebody who was really hoping that he might fall to the Kings on draft day). You want to talk about poor defensive IQ? If things continue as they are, Ayton may very well finish his rookie season as one of the worst defenders in the league at his position.

Point is, you see what you want to see, and some of you Dreamers-for-Doncic will quite literally seize on any scrap that helps you cling to your world view.

Nice. I applaud this effort, must’ve took a ton of time.

I’m not impressed with Vlade’s resume’, and didn’t have confidence in him prior to this pick. You can go on social media, or do a google FO ranking to see I’m not in the minority. Don’t have the time to go year by year, but the pick was something for me he needed to get right after a long career of me preferring a vetted mind with detailed experience. It wasn’t Ainge making a pick with a ton of good will built up.

Likewise, you can check on social media or rookie ladder’s to understand my view isn’t the minority on the current rookie race.

What’s to want to see? I want to see the good in our players, hence why I think Fox is the prospect I’d take 1 in 2017

I said maybe the rumors could have merit, but we have an assistant GM acting out of turn, who may have more wherewithal than we know of, possibly with designs of his own coach (?). This started after a few weeks of the season and the initial rookie impressions. But that certainly might not be true too

 

[LoungeLizard]

Nice. I applaud this effort, must’ve took a ton of time.

I’m not impressed with Vlade’s resume’, and didn’t have confidence in him prior to this pick. You can go on social media, or do a google FO ranking to see I’m not in the minority. Don’t have the time to go year by year, but the pick was something for me he needed to get right after a long career of me preferring a vetted mind with detailed experience. It wasn’t Ainge making a pick with a ton of good will built up.

Likewise, you can check on social media or rookie ladder’s to understand my view isn’t the minority on the current rookie race.

What’s to want to see? I want to see the good in our players, hence why I think Fox is the prospect I’d take 1 in 2017

I said maybe the rumors could have merit, but we have an assistant GM acting out of turn, who may have more wherewithal than we know of, possibly with designs of his own coach (?). This started after a few weeks of the season and the initial rookie impressions. But that certainly might not be true too

You've been banging the "Vlade is in trouble" or "this pick will have consequences" drum for quite some time now. Every time another poster counters this point you seem to always point them to "other sites" or "Real GM" or "social media". When in actuality we have a thread dedicated to National Media that is starting to recognize the strides we have made as an organization and the players that have contributed to that change, all acquired and put together on Vlades watch, by the way. I'm not one of these "Vlade can do no wrong" people, he's made plenty of mistakes, especially early on.

Bottom line is this, When Vlade made the Cousins trade he said he would have the Kings in better shape in two years or he'd quit. Now, granted this was probably hyperbole and it hasn't quite been two years yet, but by any objective, unbiased measurement we are far and away in a better place than we were on the day Cousins was traded. Our roster is littered with young talent, with Fox looking like a franchise player and Buddy and Bogdan looking like contributers to a playoff team. Bagley has shown flashes of stardom as a 19 year old who should be a Freshman in college. As I've posted in another thread, his numbers are very comparable to KD his first year in the NBA out of High School without the Assist numbers. GIles is still only 20 with loads of potential. WCS has shown better this year. We have a young core to build around. At this point we are in a better place record wise, talent wise and cap wise since the Cousins trade.

You just need to admit that you ultimately want Vlades head because he didn't take Doncic. Actually, you pretty much already have. The only problem I have with this take is you are making this declaration after 20 games.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

You just need to admit that you ultimately want Vlades head because he didn't take Doncic. Actually, you pretty much already have. The only problem I have with this take is you are making this declaration after 20 games.

I was stunned that we didn't take Doncic and after the reports that surfaced last week about Williams and Joerger I believe that if it were up to Vlade (and Peja) alone we'd have taken Doncic. And if things had gone wrong we'd have never heard the end of it from the same anti-Vlade forces. Oh they just picked him because similar ethnicities. blah blah. The dude can't win, except he has been.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

by the way... does anyone who likes visiting other teams' boards/reddits/blogs know how Atlanta fans … you know the team that DRAFTED and then TRADED Doncic are reacting?

 

[Tetsujin]

Nice. I applaud this effort, must’ve took a ton of time.

I’m not impressed with Vlade’s resume’, and didn’t have confidence in him prior to this pick. You can go on social media, or do a google FO ranking to see I’m not in the minority. Don’t have the time to go year by year, but the pick was something for me he needed to get right after a long career of me preferring a vetted mind with detailed experience. It wasn’t Ainge making a pick with a ton of good will built up.

Likewise, you can check on social media or rookie ladder’s to understand my view isn’t the minority on the current rookie race.

What’s to want to see? I want to see the good in our players, hence why I think Fox is the prospect I’d take 1 in 2017

I said maybe the rumors could have merit, but we have an assistant GM acting out of turn, who may have more wherewithal than we know of, possibly with designs of his own coach (?). This started after a few weeks of the season and the initial rookie impressions. But that certainly might not be true too

At this point, the only way Vlade will be losing his job in the near future is Brandon Williams getting Matina to fire Vlade and promote him (which you should particularly be against because it seems like Williams was leading the Bagley bandwagon) in his place or if Vlade randomly decides to retire at the end of the year.

It should also be said that while Ainge has made some good picks (though getting Tatum at the #3 slot wasn't exactly rocket science and having Brad Stevens as your coach covers up a lot of your misses), he's also whiffed more than Bill Simmons would like to admit and his management style isn't exactly known for producing the best locker room dynamics. Really a lot of the good will Ainge has built up comes from the fact that the Nets front office went insane and traded a bajillion draft picks for the rotting corpses of Paul Pierce and KG and the fact the Celtics were a famous enough franchise to lure the best coach in college basketball to the NBA.

Narratives run abundant. Whether you choose to look into them is up to you.

 

[Joshoua]

Vlade isn’t getting fired he’s done a nice job. However I’ll never forgive him for not taking Doncic I felt worse at that decision than when we traded Boogie and that really crushed me

 

[Agent23]

You are allowed to be happy we pass on Doncic when Luka plays bad, not everyone understands this game.
I don't wanna be disrespectful, trust me. But... If you resume Doncic talents in "couple of highlights" what else I can do?
It's wrong to swoon over Luka for NBA regular season highlights, swoon over him for everything he achieved in his career in bigger stages than rs.
As I said before, I'm not impressed by his NBA first two months. I'm just glad everyone sees what was already taken for granted for me.


How's it going? Looks like he's the guy who's abusing opponents on nightly basis.

I’m Kings fan. I’m busy enjoying the stud rookie we have instead of the other guy we didn’t draft. You’re more concerned about Luka Doncic than the Kings.

 

[Agent23]

You can do it, but you’ve only had roughly two chances to do it so far, while Bagley has had quite a few more stinkers. (Or not necessarily stinkers. Just non-factor types) So enjoy it!

You’re not a Kings fan.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I love how everyone is confident in making the decision on if we made the right choice 20 games into their rookie season. I wanted Luka. I'm fine with what Bagley is showing so far and his development. I'm willing to give it a few years to see how everything shakes out, though. Why is everyone in such an all-fired hurry to have a "hot take" and rip everyone who disagrees, especially when the facts are still years away from being evident?

I really just don't get it. At all.

Echoes exactly what I've been saying, despite being a guy that strongly advocated drafting the guy now playing for the Mavericks.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

[Modding]

You’re not a Kings fan.

Nah, this is what we're not going to do around here. We're not going to kick other posters out of fandom; you don't get to decide for someone else how or whether they are a Kings fan.

 

[Padrino]

You can go on social media, or do a google FO ranking to see I’m not in the minority.

...

Likewise, you can check on social media or rookie ladder’s to understand my view isn’t the minority on the current rookie race.

You're a really big fan of this particular fallacy, aren't you? Some reading for you to consider:

Argumentum ad populem

 

[Dime Dropper]

[Modding]



Nah, this is what we're not going to do around here. We're not going to kick other posters out of fandom; you don't get to decide for someone else how or whether they are a Kings fan.

And SLAB of all people? Dude has been here for as long as I can remember, through all the BS.

 

[SLAB]

You’re not a Kings fan.

Tell me about it. Only been watching this team since I was old enough to remember anything. Taken to games as a baby in Arco 1. Home videos of me naming every old school King you can remember.

Trust me. I’ve wanted to jump. Mainly after the Boogie trade. This pick also tested my patience. But here I stay.

Do I still wish we had Doncic? Hell yeah. Am I still salty? Yeah. Am I going to follow Doncic’s career? Yeah. Am I going to root against Bagley? Nope. And despite everything, am I here for the long run? For better or worse, yeah.

 

[Kingster]

I'm in this same camp. And I was reluctant to accept Bagley until I saw 2018 Fox and the style the Kings want to play with and that we are ahead of the curve that I (who would probably one of the more optimistic for this season) had imagined.

Luka was ready and a lot of that factoring into my process was that we don't have the 2019 pick and it could really help us save face to get the best player in year one. But I really do think long term we know nothing. It's all guesses. Luka is not a typical 19 year old rookie because of all the pro experience he already has. Does that mean he has LeBron's ceiling or does it mean that he's a Gordon Hayward that didn't take 4 years for anyone to notice? I don't know and neither do any of us.

I think I can safely say he doesn't have the LBJ ceiling. Certainly he isn't anywhere near the athlete of an LBJ. I think Larry Bird should be the ceiling for him. Not a bad ceiling to have.

 

[Joshoua]

His post game is already polished posting up towards now he can score in so many ways

 

[Hansel]

I’m Kings fan. I’m busy enjoying the stud rookie we have instead of the other guy we didn’t draft. You’re more concerned about Luka Doncic than the Kings.

I'm not rooting against Bagley, I'm pretty confident he'll be develop into an very interesting player. And I'm not into the "Why the Kings pass on Doncic" campaign, I'm into the "Why the Suns and the Kings pass on Doncic" campaign.
Let me try to explain. I support a team and at the same time some players I like. I'm a Kings fan of course, but I'm not part of the community as I never been there. So, theorically there are more reasons for me to supports single players than this team, right? Anyway, subconsciously I still root for Sacramento and I'm not hiding it. I root for Doncic since years and have the chance to support him with the purple jersey was just perfect. Everything was just perfect... In the draft top 3 in the right year, Vlade looking for a player with his characteristics, etc etc. Then it was such as a broken dream when we picked Bagley and maybe days after the draft I was pissed off. Then Summer League was quite upsetting me even more... Now I'm cool with Bagley and anyway I realize it's not fair to hate MBIII for that, he'll have my support. As I continue to support Doncic as well, still thinking he's going to be the best player in this draft. Now, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow.
To be honest, in the past months what upset me the most were comments and opinions by users who don't know anything about European game... People judging Doncic by stats, by percentages, by athleticsism, by the leagues he was playing in, etc etc. I don't know literally anything about high schoolers for example, that's why I read some info around and that's it. I trust people who spend their time watching games. It's ok to poorly judge a player (I thought Porzingis could have been a bust) , but competence is necessary to express an opinion. If I say Westbrook's athleticism sucks I'm an idiot, that's not a respectable opinion because it means I'm blind. Right? Same with European basketball.

Generic you... Do this to me, please.
I'm not pointing my finger at you personally of course. I'm really not into feuds with anyone. I remember the comments, not the users.

I've randomly written this post with my mobile after a long day, forgive me... Hope it makes sense.

 

[VF21]

Vlade isn’t getting fired he’s done a nice job. However I’ll never forgive him for not taking Doncic I felt worse at that decision than when we traded Boogie and that really crushed me

Never is a very long time.

 

[Warhawk]

Vlade isn’t getting fired he’s done a nice job. However I’ll never forgive him for not taking Doncic I felt worse at that decision than when we traded Boogie and that really crushed me

This is such a strange perspective. You are basing your lifelong decision on what a player did before they were drafted to the NBA instead of waiting to see what they become once they hit the big stage. Luka was always billed as the most NBA-ready and it is no surprise he is playing well - he's been playing professionally for years. Are you still going to hold that irrational POV if Luka tops out where he is (a very good player, by all means) but Bagley reaches a tier higher? Heck, what if they even just become essentially equal players (productivity-wise) and both are helping their teams reach the PO every year. Is it a mistake to take a player that fits the system you are running and you feel has a better chance to make your team the best it could be in the long run? Are you that tied to Luka's hip you can't exercise a little patience to see what happens over the next few years? Does that decision of yours REALLY need to be made today?

Again, I wanted to have the Kings draft Luka and I thought he would be good. I just don't see the rush to condemn a draft decision 1/4 of the way into the rookie season when both players are showing talent, skill, ability, fire, and growth. Both also have similar per-36 stats (not like Bagley has been stinking it up on the court every game or something). He's being brought along a little slower. It seems to be working well for now. Let's see where both are after 3 years and start making a more informed decision at that point, shall we?