Luka Doncic (pre and post-draft discussion thread)
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Athleticism is way overblown. Skill is what matters the most in the NBA.
If Athleticism was so important for wing players, players like Wesley Johnson, Stanley Johnson, Justice Winslow, Ben McClemore, MKG, would flourish in the NBA. They were all top 10 picks and was picked because they could jump out of the building, but always had questionable skills. The thought was that their NBA team could teach them the skills necessary to flourish in the NBA.
Well, guess what, these guys have struggled to stay in the league, all the while players with average athletic ability but high skill and basketball IQs like Klay Thompson, Gordon Hayward, James Harden, CJ McCollum, Steph Curry, Jayson Tatum, Kris Middleton have flourished.
When you have a player that can change the culture of your team for the better, I think you take him. I think Doncic's unselfishness and passing would become contagious and the ball movement will be much better with Doncic. No more ball sticking to one persons hands (i.e. ZBo) and the whole complexion of the team can change for the better.
If Athleticism was so important for wing players, players like Wesley Johnson, Stanley Johnson, Justice Winslow, Ben McClemore, MKG, would flourish in the NBA. They were all top 10 picks and was picked because they could jump out of the building, but always had questionable skills. The thought was that their NBA team could teach them the skills necessary to flourish in the NBA.
Well, guess what, these guys have struggled to stay in the league, all the while players with average athletic ability but high skill and basketball IQs like Klay Thompson, Gordon Hayward, James Harden, CJ McCollum, Steph Curry, Jayson Tatum, Kris Middleton have flourished.
When you have a player that can change the culture of your team for the better, I think you take him. I think Doncic's unselfishness and passing would become contagious and the ball movement will be much better with Doncic. No more ball sticking to one persons hands (i.e. ZBo) and the whole complexion of the team can change for the better.
He had LeBron level hype entering the league and he is nowhere near a LeBron level player. Add that to the simple truth that when you get drafted #1 overall you have a whole new set of expectations, many of them unfair and it's hard not to consider his career thus far a disappointment.
But at least he's not Anthony Bennett. Fultz be like "yo, hold my beer".
But at least he's not Anthony Bennett. Fultz be like "yo, hold my beer".
If you read the tea leaves and what Vlade has been preaching since the DMC trade, its that he wants a free flowing offense, he wants ball movement and increased pace.
I think Vlade is trying to instill an identity with this team and that's pace and ball movement.
While the bigs like Bagley, Bamba, JJJ would be nice pieces, they don't change the identity of the team. There is really only one player that can help create and lead the change to a fast paced and ball movement team and that's Doncic.
Now if the Kings do draft Doncic, I'm hoping that Dave Joeger can change his philosophy in coaching and open the gates for the young guys to run! I know it's against what he has done in the past, but I'm hoping all the talk about increasing pace and running he said before last year finally comes to fruition next year!
One last thing, the Kings have been in desperate need for a "Leader" for a long time. No one has stepped up to take that flag.
I think a leader is someone that can help his teammates be better players and Doncic will do that. If someone can make you a better player, I think that other players will listen and follow his lead. I think Doncic is a natural born "Leader" and would become the leader for this young team!
I think Vlade is trying to instill an identity with this team and that's pace and ball movement.
While the bigs like Bagley, Bamba, JJJ would be nice pieces, they don't change the identity of the team. There is really only one player that can help create and lead the change to a fast paced and ball movement team and that's Doncic.
Now if the Kings do draft Doncic, I'm hoping that Dave Joeger can change his philosophy in coaching and open the gates for the young guys to run! I know it's against what he has done in the past, but I'm hoping all the talk about increasing pace and running he said before last year finally comes to fruition next year!
One last thing, the Kings have been in desperate need for a "Leader" for a long time. No one has stepped up to take that flag.
I think a leader is someone that can help his teammates be better players and Doncic will do that. If someone can make you a better player, I think that other players will listen and follow his lead.
I think Doncic is a natural born "Leader" and would become the leader for this young team!
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I'll make a few different points here and see what you think. First, I think we should leave pgs out of the mix. We've seen plenty of success at that position from guys that play no defense. They have the ball in their hands so much on offense that they can be a major positive as long as their offense against their opponent is equal to or better than their opponents offense against them.
Which brings up the point of people's expectations for Luka vs what he'll probably actually be in the NBA. If he's not going to be in a class with LeBron, Giannis, and Simmons as a teams primary ball handler then you're looking at less of an impact on the offensive end. Gordon Hayward type of numbers seem like the best case. That's a pretty good player regardless but with the passion I'm encountering for Luka it seems like people think he'll be more than that.
If we're looking at Hayward vs Gobert with a jumper vs prime Ibaka vs amare here I think it's a tough call. I'm painting myself into a corner here as an anti Luka guy when that's not my intentions. I just believe it's a tough decision, not an easy one. And I'm arguing with other posters because I'm getting the sense they have what I consider to be unrealistic expectations for Luka. Those expectations are unrealistic because he doesn't have the athleticism to be a LeBron, Giannis, or Simmons. He can still be a Hayward which is great and definitely worthy at #2 .
Which brings up the point of people's expectations for Luka vs what he'll probably actually be in the NBA. If he's not going to be in a class with LeBron, Giannis, and Simmons as a teams primary ball handler then you're looking at less of an impact on the offensive end. Gordon Hayward type of numbers seem like the best case. That's a pretty good player regardless but with the passion I'm encountering for Luka it seems like people think he'll be more than that.
If we're looking at Hayward vs Gobert with a jumper vs prime Ibaka vs amare here I think it's a tough call. I'm painting myself into a corner here as an anti Luka guy when that's not my intentions. I just believe it's a tough decision, not an easy one. And I'm arguing with other posters because I'm getting the sense they have what I consider to be unrealistic expectations for Luka. Those expectations are unrealistic because he doesn't have the athleticism to be a LeBron, Giannis, or Simmons. He can still be a Hayward which is great and definitely worthy at #2 .
If you read the tea leaves and what Vlade has been preaching since the DMC trade, its that he wants a free flowing offense, he wants ball movement and increased pace.
I think Vlade is trying to instill an identity with this team and that's pace and ball movement.
While the bigs like Bagley, Bamba, JJJ would be nice pieces, they don't change the identity of the team. There is really only one player that can help create and lead the change to a fast paced and ball movement team and that's Doncic.
Now if the Kings do draft Doncic, I'm hoping that Dave Joeger can change his philosophy in coaching and open the gates for the young guys to run! I know it's against what he has done in the past, but I'm hoping all the talk about increasing pace and running he said before last year finally comes to fruition next year!
One last thing, the Kings have been in desperate need for a "Leader" for a long time. No one has stepped up to take that flag.
I think a leader is someone that can help his teammates be better players and Doncic will do that. If someone can make you a better player, I think that other players will listen and follow his lead. I think Doncic is a natural born "Leader" and would become the leader for this young team!
I think Vlade is trying to instill an identity with this team and that's pace and ball movement.
While the bigs like Bagley, Bamba, JJJ would be nice pieces, they don't change the identity of the team. There is really only one player that can help create and lead the change to a fast paced and ball movement team and that's Doncic.
Now if the Kings do draft Doncic, I'm hoping that Dave Joeger can change his philosophy in coaching and open the gates for the young guys to run! I know it's against what he has done in the past, but I'm hoping all the talk about increasing pace and running he said before last year finally comes to fruition next year!
One last thing, the Kings have been in desperate need for a "Leader" for a long time. No one has stepped up to take that flag.
I think a leader is someone that can help his teammates be better players and Doncic will do that. If someone can make you a better player, I think that other players will listen and follow his lead.
I think Doncic is a natural born "Leader" and would become the leader for this young team!
There are only one LeBron and KD in the league. Not every team has one and no one will stop those guys.
Both Ben Simmons and Giannis are Power Forwards who actually plays Point Guard, not Small Forward.
The majority of starting Small Forwards are going to be the likes of Harrison Barnes, Trevor Ariza, Gordon Hayward, PJ Tucker, Otto Porter, Brandon Ingram, Danillo Gallanari, Jayson Tatum and players like that.
Making out that all the Small Forwards in the NBA are superman, its just not the case. I think Doncic will be able to hang with the majority of the SFs.
Don't forget, only a few teams have super men like LeBron and KD at SF. The rest of the league have regular human beings at SF.
Both Ben Simmons and Giannis are Power Forwards who actually plays Point Guard, not Small Forward.
The majority of starting Small Forwards are going to be the likes of Harrison Barnes, Trevor Ariza, Gordon Hayward, PJ Tucker, Otto Porter, Brandon Ingram, Danillo Gallanari, Jayson Tatum and players like that.
Making out that all the Small Forwards in the NBA are superman, its just not the case. I think Doncic will be able to hang with the majority of the SFs.
Don't forget, only a few teams have super men like LeBron and KD at SF. The rest of the league have regular human beings at SF.
There are only one LeBron and KD in the league. Not every team has one and no one will stop those guys.
Both Ben Simmons and Giannis are Power Forwards who actually plays Point Guard, not Small Forward.
The majority of starting Small Forwards are going to be the likes of Harrison Barnes, Trevor Ariza, Gordon Hayward, PJ Tucker, Otto Porter, Brandon Ingram, Danillo Gallanari, Jayson Tatum and players like that.
Making out that all the Small Forwards in the NBA are superman, its just not the case. I think Doncic will be able to hang with the majority of the SFs.
Don't forget, only a few teams have super men like LeBron and KD at SF. The rest of the league have regular human beings at SF.
Both Ben Simmons and Giannis are Power Forwards who actually plays Point Guard, not Small Forward.
The majority of starting Small Forwards are going to be the likes of Harrison Barnes, Trevor Ariza, Gordon Hayward, PJ Tucker, Otto Porter, Brandon Ingram, Danillo Gallanari, Jayson Tatum and players like that.
Making out that all the Small Forwards in the NBA are superman, its just not the case. I think Doncic will be able to hang with the majority of the SFs.
Don't forget, only a few teams have super men like LeBron and KD at SF. The rest of the league have regular human beings at SF.
There are only one LeBron and KD in the league. Not every team has one and no one will stop those guys.
Both Ben Simmons and Giannis are Power Forwards who actually plays Point Guard, not Small Forward.
The majority of starting Small Forwards are going to be the likes of Harrison Barnes, Trevor Ariza, Gordon Hayward, PJ Tucker, Otto Porter, Brandon Ingram, Danillo Gallanari, Jayson Tatum and players like that.
Making out that all the Small Forwards in the NBA are superman, its just not the case. I think Doncic will be able to hang with the majority of the SFs.
Don't forget, only a few teams have super men like LeBron and KD at SF. The rest of the league have regular human beings at SF.
Both Ben Simmons and Giannis are Power Forwards who actually plays Point Guard, not Small Forward.
The majority of starting Small Forwards are going to be the likes of Harrison Barnes, Trevor Ariza, Gordon Hayward, PJ Tucker, Otto Porter, Brandon Ingram, Danillo Gallanari, Jayson Tatum and players like that.
Making out that all the Small Forwards in the NBA are superman, its just not the case. I think Doncic will be able to hang with the majority of the SFs.
Don't forget, only a few teams have super men like LeBron and KD at SF. The rest of the league have regular human beings at SF.
If you read the tea leaves and what Vlade has been preaching since the DMC trade, its that he wants a free flowing offense, he wants ball movement and increased pace.
I think Vlade is trying to instill an identity with this team and that's pace and ball movement.
While the bigs like Bagley, Bamba, JJJ would be nice pieces, they don't change the identity of the team. There is really only one player that can help create and lead the change to a fast paced and ball movement team and that's Doncic.
Now if the Kings do draft Doncic, I'm hoping that Dave Joeger can change his philosophy in coaching and open the gates for the young guys to run! I know it's against what he has done in the past, but I'm hoping all the talk about increasing pace and running he said before last year finally comes to fruition next year!
One last thing, the Kings have been in desperate need for a "Leader" for a long time. No one has stepped up to take that flag.
I think a leader is someone that can help his teammates be better players and Doncic will do that. If someone can make you a better player, I think that other players will listen and follow his lead. I think Doncic is a natural born "Leader" and would become the leader for this young team!
I think Vlade is trying to instill an identity with this team and that's pace and ball movement.
While the bigs like Bagley, Bamba, JJJ would be nice pieces, they don't change the identity of the team. There is really only one player that can help create and lead the change to a fast paced and ball movement team and that's Doncic.
Now if the Kings do draft Doncic, I'm hoping that Dave Joeger can change his philosophy in coaching and open the gates for the young guys to run! I know it's against what he has done in the past, but I'm hoping all the talk about increasing pace and running he said before last year finally comes to fruition next year!
One last thing, the Kings have been in desperate need for a "Leader" for a long time. No one has stepped up to take that flag.
I think a leader is someone that can help his teammates be better players and Doncic will do that. If someone can make you a better player, I think that other players will listen and follow his lead.
I think Doncic is a natural born "Leader" and would become the leader for this young team!
Why wouldn't he be the primary ballhandler? He's done exceptionally well in that role for Real Madrid. The Steve Nash comparison SCKingsfan made above occurred to me too. In fact, the best comparisons for Doncic I can think of are point guards. He doesn't look like what we think of as a PG in the NBA but neither does Ben Simmons or Giannis or Lonzo Ball or James Harden. That position is changing. And I think most fans would agree that a player's level of success in that PG role has more to do with their ability to see the floor, get to the right spots without losing control of the ball, make pinpoint accurate passes from various angles with either hand, shoot off the dribble, and direct others players to where they need to be than it has to do with how athletic they are. The appeal with Doncic really comes down to whether you see him as a full-time playmaker or not because you're right, off the ball he's an athletically limited hybrid forward who doesn't have a great first step and his go-to move is a crossover to free up a step back jumper. That's a damn good player but maybe not a franchise guy. Then again, Dirk sure got a lot of mileage out of his funky one leg jumper.
I assume your problem with Doncic at PG is that you think he's redundant with Fox (correct me with I'm wrong here). If that's the case, I don't think it will be a problem. I've been watching De'Aaron Fox for a long time and as much as I love what he brings to the team, I also think he's more of a situational playmaker than a guy you expect to handle the ball on every play. He's your change of pace guard who's going to put pressure on the defense by attacking off the dribble and getting into seams and generally causing havoc. But a change of pace guard really only works when there's something else to change from. If you're pumping the accelerator all game long it kindof loses it's effectiveness.
This worked to perfection in Cleveland when Lebron and Kyrie were both healthy because you had Lebron running the offense from the wing but he could take a few plays off every now and then while Kyrie did his thing breaking down his defender with a few crossovers and putting some quick points on the board. You always have two other shooters spotted up from three -- usually that was K Love and JR Smith but they've rotated a whole fleet of veterans through those spots the last 4 years -- and then you've got your garbage man in the middle, usually Tristan Thompson, cleaning up the boards and making the other team's post scorer (if they even have one) work for their points. Sure right now it's easy to say that Fox and Doncic would be a very poor man's version of Kyrie and Lebron but we don't really know that do we? Next season they'll be 20 and 19 years old, respectively. Maybe Fox didn't blow the doors off the place as a rookie and Doncic has got an uphill climb coming in as a setup guy on a team without a #1 scorer but I don't think we need to build an entire team with one draft pick either. We can figure out what's not working and tweak it down the line.
I really think it's time to stop making draft decisions based on player comparisons. It almost always backfires. There is no Gordon Hayward in this draft or Rudy Gobert or Serge Ibaka (I don't even know who this is supposed to be related to -- Jackson?) so why bring up all these names at all? If those are my choices I'm going with Gobert but we don't draft established NBA players we draft kids who we hope will grow into good NBA players. It's not about which player comparison we like the best it's about which of these kids has the best chance to be a star in the NBA. There's always disagreement about that because it involves projecting into the future based on what limited information we have now. And I wouldn't worry all that much what other people think. Even if every other Kings fan is saying Doncic is the guy, if you strongly believe it's someone else, more power to you. Which if these guys do you strongly believe in?
I assume your problem with Doncic at PG is that you think he's redundant with Fox (correct me with I'm wrong here). If that's the case, I don't think it will be a problem. I've been watching De'Aaron Fox for a long time and as much as I love what he brings to the team, I also think he's more of a situational playmaker than a guy you expect to handle the ball on every play. He's your change of pace guard who's going to put pressure on the defense by attacking off the dribble and getting into seams and generally causing havoc. But a change of pace guard really only works when there's something else to change from. If you're pumping the accelerator all game long it kindof loses it's effectiveness.
This worked to perfection in Cleveland when Lebron and Kyrie were both healthy because you had Lebron running the offense from the wing but he could take a few plays off every now and then while Kyrie did his thing breaking down his defender with a few crossovers and putting some quick points on the board. You always have two other shooters spotted up from three -- usually that was K Love and JR Smith but they've rotated a whole fleet of veterans through those spots the last 4 years -- and then you've got your garbage man in the middle, usually Tristan Thompson, cleaning up the boards and making the other team's post scorer (if they even have one) work for their points. Sure right now it's easy to say that Fox and Doncic would be a very poor man's version of Kyrie and Lebron but we don't really know that do we? Next season they'll be 20 and 19 years old, respectively. Maybe Fox didn't blow the doors off the place as a rookie and Doncic has got an uphill climb coming in as a setup guy on a team without a #1 scorer but I don't think we need to build an entire team with one draft pick either. We can figure out what's not working and tweak it down the line.
I really think it's time to stop making draft decisions based on player comparisons. It almost always backfires. There is no Gordon Hayward in this draft or Rudy Gobert or Serge Ibaka (I don't even know who this is supposed to be related to -- Jackson?) so why bring up all these names at all? If those are my choices I'm going with Gobert but we don't draft established NBA players we draft kids who we hope will grow into good NBA players. It's not about which player comparison we like the best it's about which of these kids has the best chance to be a star in the NBA. There's always disagreement about that because it involves projecting into the future based on what limited information we have now. And I wouldn't worry all that much what other people think. Even if every other Kings fan is saying Doncic is the guy, if you strongly believe it's someone else, more power to you. Which if these guys do you strongly believe in?
dude come on. You named athletic players who had no skills. What about athletic players with skills like LeBron James, Anthony Davis, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Russell Westbrook, Donovan Mitchell, and more.
I could name a ton of unathletic busts in the NBA too: Nik Stauskas, Anthony Bennett, Alex Len, Trey Burke, Jimmer Fredette, Evan Turner, and more.
Athleticism is not overblown. I can't believe people are making this ridiculous argument that athleticism isn't all that important. that's insane to me. Look at the top 50 players in the history of the NBA. There are less than 5 who were non-athletic. I'm getting tired of this argument that athleticism isn't important in the NBA. jeez. Am I saying Doncic won't become a good player because he's not a good athlete? NO. But this idea that athleticism is not important in the NBA is silly.
I could name a ton of unathletic busts in the NBA too: Nik Stauskas, Anthony Bennett, Alex Len, Trey Burke, Jimmer Fredette, Evan Turner, and more.
Athleticism is not overblown. I can't believe people are making this ridiculous argument that athleticism isn't all that important. that's insane to me. Look at the top 50 players in the history of the NBA. There are less than 5 who were non-athletic. I'm getting tired of this argument that athleticism isn't important in the NBA. jeez. Am I saying Doncic won't become a good player because he's not a good athlete? NO. But this idea that athleticism is not important in the NBA is silly.
Steve Nash is a rich comparison... elite ball handler+elite shooter+elite playmaking skills. You're talking the 50-40-90 club..
Assuming Ayton goes #1, Luka is my official pick at #2. You just can't ignore his skillset at 6'8 230lbs. Nothing will change this unless the Kings give absolutely raving reviews on Bagley after his scheduled workout.
Assuming Ayton goes #1, Luka is my official pick at #2. You just can't ignore his skillset at 6'8 230lbs. Nothing will change this unless the Kings give absolutely raving reviews on Bagley after his scheduled workout.
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Dude, you just proved my point. You just rattled off a list of guys that don't have NBA skills AND are unathletic.
My point was never that you need to be unathletic to do well in the NBA. My point was having many NBA skills is more important than being uber athletic..
My point was that when you have a large repotoire of NBA skills like players like Doncic, Nash, Curry, Hayward, then being an uber athlete is not essential for success.
Doncic may not be a super athlete, but he definitely has a large repotoire of NBA skills.
My point was never that you need to be unathletic to do well in the NBA. My point was having many NBA skills is more important than being uber athletic..
My point was that when you have a large repotoire of NBA skills like players like Doncic, Nash, Curry, Hayward, then being an uber athlete is not essential for success.
Doncic may not be a super athlete, but he definitely has a large repotoire of NBA skills.
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Curry is one of the quickest players in the league, so I think he's an above average athlete despite his vertical limitations. Hayward is very athletic all-around. I also think Middleton is an above average athlete. However, the other guys on your lists is fair play. I believe that in most cases, you need both athleticism and skill to be a very good player in the NBA. As I said, when you look at the top 50 players in the history of the NBA, there are less than 5 who are unathletic.
Let's compare it to the modern game. I'll go off of the All-Stars from this season composed of 27 players https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NBA_All-Star_Game. Here's the list of average athletes: Love, Curry(i'll give you him), Harden, Green, Thompson, and Aldridge. That's only 6/27, or 22% of the All-Stars this year that had average athleticism. That's a whooping 78% of all-stars who were at least above average athletes.
Let's compare it to the modern game. I'll go off of the All-Stars from this season composed of 27 players https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NBA_All-Star_Game. Here's the list of average athletes: Love, Curry(i'll give you him), Harden, Green, Thompson, and Aldridge. That's only 6/27, or 22% of the All-Stars this year that had average athleticism. That's a whooping 78% of all-stars who were at least above average athletes.
It's a really good post man and there's a lot I agree with. At the end of the day I'm sticking to my fox equals John Wall comparison lol and hoping he's more than a change of pace guard. Plus he doesn't shoot like Kyrie so he won't play as well off the ball.
That said, if Doncic is the pick and the offense is better with him running the point then that's the way we should go for sure. I'm stuck on the thought of a fox, buddy, Bogdan, giles, jjj (or Mo) lineup. That's what gets me most excited with really good two way potential. That's why I have Doncic just below those two guys. I won't be disappointed if he's the pick though. We just need to get it right.
That said, if Doncic is the pick and the offense is better with him running the point then that's the way we should go for sure. I'm stuck on the thought of a fox, buddy, Bogdan, giles, jjj (or Mo) lineup. That's what gets me most excited with really good two way potential. That's why I have Doncic just below those two guys. I won't be disappointed if he's the pick though. We just need to get it right.
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