Luka Doncic (pre and post-draft discussion thread)

[funkykingston]

We're seeing rumors now that the Celtics and the Clippers would like to move up to draft Doncic. It's silly season, so we should take what we hear with a grain of salt, but if Danny Ainge and Jerry West are high on Doncic... that's a ringing endorsement to me.

Draft time is full of rumors and smoke. Last week it was that Ainge loved Bamba, which actually makes a lot more sense for the Celtics as constructed. He could be ideal as the lone big on a team with lots of wing scoring already.

Either way, after going over more tape, reading a ton, listening to podcasts, etc I'm back to exactly where I started - I want the Kings to take one of Ayton, Bagley or Doncic. And since Ayton to Phoenix looks like a lock, I'm basically hoping for Bagley or Doncic.

 

[kingsfan1984]

I want to make sure this post gets more attention. Especially since the best player in the world agrees with you and just went out of his way to explain why. It's fair to question if NBA defenders will take away some of what has made Doncic so effective in Europe. What's unquestionable to me is that Luka is one of the smarter players I've seen as a 18/19 year old and that's where most of my enthusiasm for his potential comes from. Whatever a player is elite at, other teams will see it and form a gameplan to either take that part of their game away or at least mitigate its effectiveness. Smart players will notice that and make adjustments. There are players every year who come into the league as elite physical specimens but they are unable to "think" their way through the game in real-time so their physical tools never get fully utilized. If you want to beat the best of the best you're going to need players who are smart enough to read the situation as it's unfolding and make the right decision more often than not.

The other great thing about high IQ players is that their knowledge of the game can be shared with their teammates such that one smart player turns into a team that plays smart (within reason, you still need relatively smart teammates to be able to retain that information and use it in games) whereas an elite athlete is not going to do anything to elevate the athleticism of his peers. So from a draft point of view, if you've got someone on the board who exhibits elite level basketball intelligence I think you should factor in the exponential growth that their presence might catalyze for the rest of the team.

As much as i love MPJ and what i imagine he will be, very hard to take him over doncic.

 

[Chupacabra]

Athletic prospects have failed to pan out far too often for athleticism to be the focal point that it is in terms of evaluating talent at the NBA level. There are far too many qualities to account for to get hung up for so long on athleticism. Think of all of the examples of good-great players that lacked athleticism. Think of all of the athletic freaks that fizzled out quickly, if they were ever good enough to fizzle at all.

It does also seem that the larger the player, the less important their level of athleticism is. Doncic is 6'8. Its not like he is a tiny point guard that lacks athleticism.

 

[roasthawg]

Athletic prospects have failed to pan out far too often for athleticism to be the focal point that it is in terms of evaluating talent at the NBA level. There are far too many qualities to account for to get hung up for so long on athleticism. Think of all of the examples of good-great players that lacked athleticism. Think of all of the athletic freaks that fizzled out quickly, if they were ever good enough to fizzle at all.

It does also seem that the larger the player, the less important their level of athleticism is. Doncic is 6'8. Its not like he is a tiny point guard that lacks athleticism.

He's a wing, not a 4/5. Athleticism matters, defense is very important at that position. Doncic fans can downplay it all they want but imo he's at the worst possible position on the floor to be lacking athleticism. Not a lot of examples of successful 3's that aren't good athletes.

 

[tyguy]

Draft time is full of rumors and smoke. Last week it was that Ainge loved Bamba, which actually makes a lot more sense for the Celtics as constructed. He could be ideal as the lone big on a team with lots of wing scoring already.

Either way, after going over more tape, reading a ton, listening to podcasts, etc I'm back to exactly where I started - I want the Kings to take one of Ayton, Bamba or Doncic. And since Ayton to Phoenix looks like a lock, I'm basically hoping for Bagley or Doncic.

I'm confused, you want the kings to take ayton, bamba or doncic, but then the very next sentence yo usay you hope it's Doncic or bagley?

 

[roasthawg]

I'm confused, you want the kings to take ayton, bamba or doncic, but then the very next sentence yo usay you hope it's Doncic or bagley?

I think he likes Bagley, accidentally typed Bamba.

 

[Mass]

He's a wing, not a 4/5. Athleticism matters, defense is very important at that position. Doncic fans can downplay it all they want but imo he's at the worst possible position on the floor to be lacking athleticism. Not a lot of examples of successful 3's that aren't good athletes.

So, you would take the athletic McLemore over Doncic, right? McLemore is such a great athlete, he has a wonderful shooting form, he can be the next Ray Allen. His athleticism also makes him a lock down defender.

In my mind there’s no doubt. I want Luka. This team needs B.B. IQ more than anything else. Smart, intelligent players who know what to do on the floor. I don’t care if you can jump out of the building but you can’t read a double team or see your teammates open.

 

[tyguy]

I think he likes Bagley, accidentally typed Bamba.

Okay, that makes more sense. I reposted another post I made in the bagley thread why it would be foolish to take a non defensive big #2 overall when we're sitting here looking at a big wing with elite offensive potential as a shot creator for himself and others.

 

[roasthawg]

So, you would take the athletic McLemore over Doncic, right? McLemore is such a great athlete, he has a wonderful shooting form, he can be the next Ray Allen. His athleticism also makes him a lock down defender.

In my mind there’s no doubt. I want Luka. This team needs B.B. IQ more than anything else. Smart, intelligent players who know what to do on the floor. I don’t care if you can jump out of the building but you can’t rad a double team or see your teammates open.

You're just cherry picking one bad example and he's not even a three. Compare Doncic to other high level sf prospects recently like Wiggins, Tatum, jackson, etc. I'd have had Wiggins and Jackson over him for sure, I had Tatum #3 last year and have Doncic #4 in a better draft this year so they'd be close for me. I like Doncic, I'm coming down on the anti-doncic side on this board right now only because I feel like there's a lack of really critiquing his game as it translates to the NBA, especially on the defensive side. He's hedo turkoglu imo, not Larry Bird. There's other prospects that need to be considered.

 

[funkykingston]

I'm confused, you want the kings to take ayton, bamba or doncic, but then the very next sentence yo usay you hope it's Doncic or bagley?

I think he likes Bagley, accidentally typed Bamba.

Yep. For me it's Bagley or Doncic at #2.

 

[Kingsfan23]

Not worried about Luka’s athleticism on D, because he’ll be guarding PFs as a PF

 

[burner account]

This was Hedo Turkoglu in euroleague when he was 18.

http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_,U....roundID_2569.playerID_21687.teamID_1338.html

This was Hedo Turkoglu in euroleague when he was 19.

http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_,U....roundID_2570.playerID_21687.teamID_1338.html

I feel ther can be possibly medium between Larry freaking Bird and Hidayet Turkoglu.Possibly?

Because Hedo with 20 wasan´t close to the player Doncic was with 18.
And you can compare both of them because they played the same competition.

 

[ESP47]

This was Hedo Turkoglu in euroleague when he was 18.

http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_,U....roundID_2569.playerID_21687.teamID_1338.html

This was Hedo Turkoglu in euroleague when he was 19.

http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_,U....roundID_2570.playerID_21687.teamID_1338.html

I feel ther can be possibly medium between Larry freaking Bird and Hidayet Turkoglu.Possibly?

Because Hedo with 20 wasan´t close to the player Doncic was with 18.
And you can compare both of them because they played the same competition.

Somewhere between Larry Bird and Hedo is a very very wide margin.

 

[kingdivac]

Doncic is probably the safest pick in the draft. Its very hard to see a scenario where he wouldnt be at least a very productive player. He has size, shooting ability, great ball handling skills and elite vision. His floor is on another level compared to these other prospects.

That being said, his lack of athletisism might make it hard for him to be a near mvp caliber player. He is also very young so its possible his athletisism will develope and it will become good enough to win 1-1 after switches.

I really hope Kings get him unless Porter just amazes on private workouts. By drafting Doncic Kings NEED to commit on few things:
1. Build 4-1 offense with A LOT of shooting and build the game around Fox and Doncic running pick n rolls with a rim running center.

2. Getting a wing defender to play "pf". Bogdanovic isnt a good defender, Doncic isnt a good defender so you need one guy to defend the best opposing wing. Considering that he would also need to be able to shoot, thats type of player that is very difficult to find. Maybe try throwing some money at Aaron Gordon, maybe try to get Harkless for nothing ot just wait till the next free agency.

If I see them drafting Doncic and starting a lineup like Fox, Bog, Doncic, Zbo/Skal, Wcs/Giles, im going to furiously demand that both Joeger and Vlade needs to be fired. On the other hand it would be hilarious to see Luka's face when he tries to iso after switch when Zbo is sitting in the high post, wcs under the rim and Fox's defender clogging the lane

Good post .... safe is true. Would rather Ayton, but I doubt Ayton falls. Doncic is akin to "swinging for a double" in baseball terms. I wasn't too impressed with Bagley from the 64 tournament - could be wrong, but anyway.

 

[burner account]

Somewhere between Larry Bird and Hedo is a very very wide margin.

Well that's my point. You cant say he wont be Bird , he will be Turkoglu and end the discussion there.

Whitout real argument execept , they are both white and from europe.

 

[Ozymandias]

I'm continually baffled by the overstated love of a team and player that hasn't advanced beyond the 2nd round of the playoffs and has one 50+ win season under their belt. If Rudy Gobert was so damn impactful, they'd be more successful than they have been. Good player, but not a franchise changing player for pete's sake. I wish we didn't have to deal with all this rubbish on a Kings site no less.

As you correctly pointed out, the Jazz will go as far as Donovan Mitchell can take them. He's the #1 most impactful piece on that team and was only a rookie.

As for Bamba, I'm very intrigued with him as well. But as stated, there are just other players to like better for #2 IMO.

That Jazz team bases itself off of the Pistons chamiponship squad..Hows that for a role model?.. A team that probably didnt have a true superstar but played defense and tough ball and defeated a team with 2 franchise changing players in kobe and shaq in te 04 finals.

 

[roasthawg]

Well that's my point. You cant say he wont be Bird , he will be Turkoglu and end the discussion there.

Whitout real argument execept , they are both white and from europe.

I'm by no means trying to end the discussion there. I said imo he has Gordon Hayward upside with a turkoglu floor. That's a nice prospect, just not a no brainier at #2. I'm open to any and all comparisons, just haven't heard any I believe in more than those two yet.

 

[Hansel]

Turkoglu at his best (Magic) was better than Hayward.

 

[VF21]

Welcome back Brick??

Brick would never hide behind a nom de plume.

 

[burner account]

I don´t see some adequate player comparison.Luka probably now is better playmaker then Hayward in his peak.

You can see bunch of different players ih him but comparing him strictly to one player is impossible.His skill and production level is so bigger then anyone else(at least in europe since Drazen and Sabonis)trying to put celing on him seems hard.

 

[206Fan]

Turkoglu at his best (Magic) was better than Hayward.

I disagree. Hayward is head and shoulders better than Hedo. Hedo only had 1 "very good season", and immediately declined afterwards. He has never been Orlando's best player whereas Hayward single handily carried Utah's offense for the past 3 years.

 

[The Effort Police]

That Jazz team bases itself off of the Pistons chamiponship squad..Hows that for a role model?.. A team that probably didnt have a true superstar but played defense and tough ball and defeated a team with 2 franchise changing players in kobe and shaq in te 04 finals.

Also the only title team to do so in the past 30 something years.

You're just cherry picking one bad example and he's not even a three. Compare Doncic to other high level sf prospects recently like Wiggins, Tatum, jackson, etc. I'd have had Wiggins and Jackson over him for sure, I had Tatum #3 last year and have Doncic #4 in a better draft this year so they'd be close for me. I like Doncic, I'm coming down on the anti-doncic side on this board right now only because I feel like there's a lack of really critiquing his game as it translates to the NBA, especially on the defensive side. He's hedo turkoglu imo, not Larry Bird. There's other prospects that need to be considered.

Wiggins is a disappointment if not a bust.

Tatum isn't even some freak athlete. He's a fluid athlete and more athletic than Doncic, but isn't that explosive and is hardly the biggest physical specimen around at the 3.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Brick would never hide behind a nom de plume.

That username would be so clever and apropos I'd almost forgive that he left, plus he'd need a new schtick anyways.

It'd be a shame if burner account is just a rando.

 

[roasthawg]

Also the only title team to do so in the past 30 something years.




Wiggins is a disappointment if not a bust.

Tatum isn't even some freak athlete. He's a fluid athlete and more athletic than Doncic, but isn't that explosive and is hardly the biggest physical specimen around at the 3.

Wiggins isn't a bust but either way I was talking about him as a prospect, not a pro. I spoke about Tatum enough last year leading up to the draft. I had him #3 and most here disagreed with that. He's a guy with just enough athleticism and length. Anyways, my only point was to compare highly rated wings against each other rather than players of other positions or draft slots.

 

[Ozymandias]

Also the only title team to do so in the past 30 something years.

 

[Telemachus]

Good post .... safe is true. Would rather Ayton, but I doubt Ayton falls. Doncic is akin to "swinging for a double" in baseball terms. I wasn't too impressed with Bagley from the 64 tournament - could be wrong, but anyway.

Funny thing, but when you swing for the fences in baseball, you usually either pop up or strikeout. When you try to go with the pitch and make solid contact, that's when you up with the homerun.

 

[Dime Dropper]

I'm by no means trying to end the discussion there. I said imo he has Gordon Hayward upside with a turkoglu floor. That's a nice prospect, just not a no brainier at #2. I'm open to any and all comparisons, just haven't heard any I believe in more than those two yet.

You keep saying this. Name a single comparison that turned out to be true? Harden was sometimes compared to Ginobili, which was a pretty good comparison in terms of style of play. Any others? It's unbelievable that you think that's a valid argument. Nobody has done what Doncic has done, there is no comparison. Like I said before, you would have passed on Dirk because there was no one before him like him. That logic doesn't wash. Stick to the athleticism argument, at least that's not totally unreasonable.

Comparisons are garbage and only used seriously as a metric by people who don't know how to actually evaluate. It's the lazy man's way out. Same story with Tatum last year, people here disliked him because of the Gay comparison. It's nonsense. And yes, I know you weren't part of that group, you bring it up every other post.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Funny thing, but when you swing for the fences in baseball, you usually either pop up or strikeout. When you try to go with the pitch and make solid contact, that's when you up with the homerun.

I dunno, I don't watch baseball much anymore but allegedly the reason the game is broken now is because batters only swing for homeruns. Much like the 3 in basketball. There's a whole science around launch angles and getting the ball in the air.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...s-story/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a5cd65500eab

 

[roasthawg]

You keep saying this. Name a single comparison that turned out to be true? Harden was sometimes compared to Ginobili, which was a pretty good comparison in terms of style of play. Any others? It's unbelievable that you think that's a valid argument. Nobody has done what Doncic has done, there is no comparison. Like I said before, you would have passed on Dirk because there was no one before him like him. That logic doesn't wash. Stick to the athleticism argument, at least that's not totally unreasonable.

Comparisons are garbage and only used seriously as a metric by people who don't know how to actually evaluate. It's the lazy man's way out. Same story with Tatum last year, people here disliked him because of the Gay comparison. It's nonsense. And yes, I know you weren't part of that group, you bring it up every other post.

Here's an example, I had Mitchell high last year because he had similarities to Bledsoe. It's not about the guys being super similar as pros, it's about looking at NBA players with similar size, length, athleticism, and skill sets and seeing how successful those guys have been. You don't like comparisons, I get it. You love Doncic, maybe you'll be right. I don't hate him, got em #4 and it's fluid because they're all so close. All the good comps I see are pretty good pros, not perennial all stars. I think people feel like he's a perennial all star in waiting so they're not even looking at the unicorn bigs that are sitting there.

And I've mentioned Tatum like three times in the hundred posts I've made this draft season, chill on all that please.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

Wiggins isn't a bust but either way I was talking about him as a prospect, not a pro. I spoke about Tatum enough last year leading up to the draft. I had him #3 and most here disagreed with that. He's a guy with just enough athleticism and length. Anyways, my only point was to compare highly rated wings against each other rather than players of other positions or draft slots.

Wiggins isn't technically a bust, but he is the ideal player you'd never ever want to build your team around. A shooting guard who can score, but can't hit 3's. Plays some of the worst defense at his position and contributes virtually nothing else outside of his scoring. There are several busts in the nba right now that I'd take on a team over Wiggins.