drboiffard
Bench
First.!
Probably best TV-series ever made starts to finish tonight. Anyone is excited? I am.
Probably best TV-series ever made starts to finish tonight. Anyone is excited? I am.
LOST Season 6
- Thread starter drboiffard
- Start date
drboiffard
Bench
I have to be fair and say I just have seen live a few episodes from the first, and I saw the five seasons in almost a couple of months past Easter. I haven't been suffering all these years, only 9 months.
Anyways, it's amazing. The most amazing plot has seen the small screen. It seems like al lot of true talent writers from the movies have moved to TV series during this decade, but Lost is above all series. It has made the cliffhanger a High Art and at the same time they've made an incredibly exciting story wich fits in layers and layers of deepness and well written characters. There are other recent series such as The Sopranos or The Wire that are also masterpieces. But there's nothing like Lost. For me, Best TV Series ever hands down.
I don't think they can finish until the tiniest detail, but I think almost everything will fit as an atonishing whole and we all will pee in our pants.
Just a few hours to go...
Anyways, it's amazing. The most amazing plot has seen the small screen. It seems like al lot of true talent writers from the movies have moved to TV series during this decade, but Lost is above all series. It has made the cliffhanger a High Art and at the same time they've made an incredibly exciting story wich fits in layers and layers of deepness and well written characters. There are other recent series such as The Sopranos or The Wire that are also masterpieces. But there's nothing like Lost. For me, Best TV Series ever hands down.
I don't think they can finish until the tiniest detail, but I think almost everything will fit as an atonishing whole and we all will pee in our pants.
Just a few hours to go...
xrzn
Starter
"It worked."
Juliet said it worked so in an alternate universe/timeline, the plane does successfully land but with some irregularities, such as Hurley being luckiest guy alive and Desmond popping up.
Juliet also tells Swayer, "We should get coffee." Kinda random, right? Well, it could be because consciously she was in another timeline, possibly with Swayer off the island. She also was upset at first that it didn't work and then at the end had something important to tell him. She died before she could, but thanks to Miles, he figured out it was that "it worked." What "it" is is debatable, but it would explain how Juliet could know that it worked; the plane landing safely at LAX.
A few people posted on another site pointed out a bunch of stuff said that were references to the original timeline (the one where the plane crashed and what resulted from it):
- Boone tells Locke, "If this thing goes down, I'm sticking with you." Boone did stick with Locke when the plane crashed on the island and ended up dying.
- Charlie tells Jack, "I was supposed to die." Desmond tells Charlie he was supposed to die a few seasons ago.
- Bernard said, "Remind me to hold it next time" after going to the bathroom. He was with the tail section others on the island because of being in the bathroom in the original timeline.
- Rose tells Jack, "It's ok to let go" (referring to the armrest). Jack has heard this all throughout his life.
- Rose tells Jack, "It's gonna be ok you know." Jack said that to her in the original timeline.
- Boone asked Locke if he's "pulling his leg" (referring to him going on his walkabout).This one is just funny.
One guy said that "maybe this was their subconscious telling them they were supposed to be on the island." That's an interesting thought; will everyone eventually remember what happened, if they even can?
I'm also going to believe Desmond wasn't on the plane for the sole fact that only Jack saw and spoke to him. When Jack left and returned, he asked Rose if they (Rose and Bernard) had seen someone sitting in the chair next to him and she said that they were asleep. Coincidence? I don't think so. I'll bet that was a hint for the viewers that maybe Desmond is still time traveling? Maybe Jack was just wasted.
Terry O'Quinn is one of the best actors I've ever seen. Dude's playing classic, season 1 Locke and then turns into one of the meanest SOBs, a smoke monster. Not to mention he's also a dead corpse. His chemistry with Jack at the airport was immaculate.
Locke - "They didn't lose his your father, they just lost his body."
Locke - "Surgery isn't going to do anything to help me; my condition is irreversible."
Jack - "Nothing is irreversible."
JUST LOOK INTO THE FACE OF THIS BEAST AND TELL ME IT DOESN'T SEND CHILLS DOWN YOUR SPINE
Juliet said it worked so in an alternate universe/timeline, the plane does successfully land but with some irregularities, such as Hurley being luckiest guy alive and Desmond popping up.
Juliet also tells Swayer, "We should get coffee." Kinda random, right? Well, it could be because consciously she was in another timeline, possibly with Swayer off the island. She also was upset at first that it didn't work and then at the end had something important to tell him. She died before she could, but thanks to Miles, he figured out it was that "it worked." What "it" is is debatable, but it would explain how Juliet could know that it worked; the plane landing safely at LAX.
A few people posted on another site pointed out a bunch of stuff said that were references to the original timeline (the one where the plane crashed and what resulted from it):
- Boone tells Locke, "If this thing goes down, I'm sticking with you." Boone did stick with Locke when the plane crashed on the island and ended up dying.
- Charlie tells Jack, "I was supposed to die." Desmond tells Charlie he was supposed to die a few seasons ago.
- Bernard said, "Remind me to hold it next time" after going to the bathroom. He was with the tail section others on the island because of being in the bathroom in the original timeline.
- Rose tells Jack, "It's ok to let go" (referring to the armrest). Jack has heard this all throughout his life.
- Rose tells Jack, "It's gonna be ok you know." Jack said that to her in the original timeline.
- Boone asked Locke if he's "pulling his leg" (referring to him going on his walkabout).This one is just funny.
One guy said that "maybe this was their subconscious telling them they were supposed to be on the island." That's an interesting thought; will everyone eventually remember what happened, if they even can?
I'm also going to believe Desmond wasn't on the plane for the sole fact that only Jack saw and spoke to him. When Jack left and returned, he asked Rose if they (Rose and Bernard) had seen someone sitting in the chair next to him and she said that they were asleep. Coincidence? I don't think so. I'll bet that was a hint for the viewers that maybe Desmond is still time traveling? Maybe Jack was just wasted.
Terry O'Quinn is one of the best actors I've ever seen. Dude's playing classic, season 1 Locke and then turns into one of the meanest SOBs, a smoke monster. Not to mention he's also a dead corpse. His chemistry with Jack at the airport was immaculate.
Locke - "They didn't lose his your father, they just lost his body."
Locke - "Surgery isn't going to do anything to help me; my condition is irreversible."
Jack - "Nothing is irreversible."
JUST LOOK INTO THE FACE OF THIS BEAST AND TELL ME IT DOESN'T SEND CHILLS DOWN YOUR SPINE
KiNgMyC
Starter
agreed!
The Big Questions:
Why are the Losties both on the Island and off of it?
What did Juliet mean by "it worked"?
What does Nemesis need to talk to Richard about?
What happened to Desmond on the plane?
Where is Christian's coffin?
Who are the people in the Temple?
What is the significance of the Temple's water not being clear?
What was the purpose of the firework flare?
Where is the Nemesis' home that he wants to go to?
What chains was Nemesis referring to?
Why is Nemesis disappointed in the people on the beach?
Where is Nemesis taking Richard?
What did the Temple leader want to talk to Jack about?
How did Sayid come to life again?
Why are the Losties both on the Island and off of it?
What did Juliet mean by "it worked"?
What does Nemesis need to talk to Richard about?
What happened to Desmond on the plane?
Where is Christian's coffin?
Who are the people in the Temple?
What is the significance of the Temple's water not being clear?
What was the purpose of the firework flare?
Where is the Nemesis' home that he wants to go to?
What chains was Nemesis referring to?
Why is Nemesis disappointed in the people on the beach?
Where is Nemesis taking Richard?
What did the Temple leader want to talk to Jack about?
How did Sayid come to life again?
From another board...
My answers/questions/comments.
Cheers:
Jeers:
The Big Questions:
Why are the Losties both on the Island and off of it?
The explosion created a parallel universe, based on the branching universe theory, or many-worlds interpretation.
Laymens terms, the explosion didn't change the future. It created a separate reality in which the Swan was never built, Oceanic 815 never crashed, and our Lostees are living their lives as if this show was never created. That separate reality is running parallel to the reality that we've come to know, in which the Swan was built, 815 did crash, and the Lostees have gone back to 1977, and been transported to 2007 after Jughead detonated.
Think of Back to the Future II. The reality that Doc and Marty are trying to change replaced the reality they had come to know, but branching universe theory states that their reality is running concurrently to the alternate reality that they were dissatisfied with. Like a river that is split, instead of diverted, and creates a separate stream.
What did Juliet mean by "it worked"?
That's tricky. I wonder if Miles was just trying to keep Sawyer from killing Jack.
But the first thing she said to Sawyer was "it didn't work", right? So why did she flip course? Things that make you go, hmm.
What does Nemesis need to talk to Richard about?
Maybe he wanted to work out a deal. But considering how easily he subdued the ageless one, didn't really need a deal. Maybe it was just a "look what I did" kinda thing. I wanna know why Richard wouldn't go in there.
What happened to Desmond on the plane?
I just figured he went back to his seat. The plane is getting ready to land, his carry on stuff is back at his seat, that's where he belongs. Didn't think too much about that.
Where is Christian's coffin?
Flying the friendly skies. I figured that was a plot device to remind us of Jack's condition at that time, and to get him introduced to Locke.
Who are the people in the Temple?
Seems like they're the real Natives. But they don't seem like the Eloise Hawking/Charles Widmore/Benjamin Linus-led Natives. Ben might not even know about these guys (Edit: He knows Cindy, because she was at the Hydra station, so scratch that idea). They know who/what Nemesis is, they healed Ben (and he didn't remember the healing), these are the people who really belong on the Island.
What is the significance of the Temple's water not being clear?
I, too, assumed it was because Jacob died. Richard said that he's ageless because of Jacob, Jacob revived John Locke, etc. Seems like he's the one with the powers and junk. And the reaction from the Natives when Hurley told them Jacob was dead showed that they didn't know that at first. Guess they hadn't made the connection.
What was the purpose of the firework flare?
It meant "look out, Jacob's dead and Smokie's on the loose!" Richard knew what it was.
Where is the Nemesis' home that he wants to go to?
Dunno. But it seems like maybe he and Jacob were banished to the Island to either figure out how to solve humanity's problems, or come to the realization that they couldn't be solved and maybe push the reset button. Seemed to be the crux of their argument on the beach. And as long as Jacob is trying to fix things, neither of them can leave...? So Jacob has to die.
What chains was Nemesis referring to?
I thought about the chains that Locke's dad was tied to the ruins with, when Locke was supposed to kill him.
But maybe Richard was a slave on the Black Rock, and Nemesis and Jacob disagreed on whether to release him or not.
Why is Nemesis disappointed in the people on the beach?
They're not nearly E-VIL enough. Perhaps they all chose to follow Jacob instead of Nemesis?
Where is Nemesis taking Richard?
The Natives at the Temple all seemed to think that Nemesis was making a b-line that way, and since Richard is on Nemesis' back...
What did the Temple leader want to talk to Jack about?
Spinal surgery?
The Natives at the Temple knew about Oceanic 815, and probably knew that Jack was the guy who was hell bent on getting off the Island and was leading his people to a conflict with their people. Things that make you go hmmm.
How did Sayid come to life again?
I guess the water worked? I assumed that Jacob took him over or something. When they pulled him out of the water, his arms were spread like he'd been crucified. Maybe his death and resurrection are symbolic? He said "what happened", same as Ben said when he'd been saved by the Natives at the temple. I'll bet he doesn't know he was shot, and I'll bet he's the new leader of the Others, and I'll bet he whoops Smokie's butt.
Side point: Another thing I thought about...
Christian Shepard is evidently NOT working with Nemesis, because Christian was inside the cabin when it was surrounded by black ash.
???
LOST is frickin' back, man!
We finally know more about the Smoke Monster (and he kicks royal booty!)
Jughead worked.
We finally know more about the Smoke Monster (and he kicks royal booty!)
Jughead worked.
Jeers:
Jughead didn't work.
John Locke is really dead.
THIS IS THE LAST SEASON! And this episode was entirely too short. (WHAT?!?)
John Locke is really dead.
THIS IS THE LAST SEASON! And this episode was entirely too short. (WHAT?!?)
The Big Questions:
Why are the Losties both on the Island and off of it?
The explosion created a parallel universe, based on the branching universe theory, or many-worlds interpretation.
Laymens terms, the explosion didn't change the future. It created a separate reality in which the Swan was never built, Oceanic 815 never crashed, and our Lostees are living their lives as if this show was never created. That separate reality is running parallel to the reality that we've come to know, in which the Swan was built, 815 did crash, and the Lostees have gone back to 1977, and been transported to 2007 after Jughead detonated.
Think of Back to the Future II. The reality that Doc and Marty are trying to change replaced the reality they had come to know, but branching universe theory states that their reality is running concurrently to the alternate reality that they were dissatisfied with. Like a river that is split, instead of diverted, and creates a separate stream.
What did Juliet mean by "it worked"?
That's tricky. I wonder if Miles was just trying to keep Sawyer from killing Jack.
But the first thing she said to Sawyer was "it didn't work", right? So why did she flip course? Things that make you go, hmm.
What does Nemesis need to talk to Richard about?
Maybe he wanted to work out a deal. But considering how easily he subdued the ageless one, didn't really need a deal. Maybe it was just a "look what I did" kinda thing. I wanna know why Richard wouldn't go in there.
What happened to Desmond on the plane?
I just figured he went back to his seat. The plane is getting ready to land, his carry on stuff is back at his seat, that's where he belongs. Didn't think too much about that.
Where is Christian's coffin?
Flying the friendly skies. I figured that was a plot device to remind us of Jack's condition at that time, and to get him introduced to Locke.
Who are the people in the Temple?
Seems like they're the real Natives. But they don't seem like the Eloise Hawking/Charles Widmore/Benjamin Linus-led Natives. Ben might not even know about these guys (Edit: He knows Cindy, because she was at the Hydra station, so scratch that idea). They know who/what Nemesis is, they healed Ben (and he didn't remember the healing), these are the people who really belong on the Island.
What is the significance of the Temple's water not being clear?
I, too, assumed it was because Jacob died. Richard said that he's ageless because of Jacob, Jacob revived John Locke, etc. Seems like he's the one with the powers and junk. And the reaction from the Natives when Hurley told them Jacob was dead showed that they didn't know that at first. Guess they hadn't made the connection.
What was the purpose of the firework flare?
It meant "look out, Jacob's dead and Smokie's on the loose!" Richard knew what it was.
Where is the Nemesis' home that he wants to go to?
Dunno. But it seems like maybe he and Jacob were banished to the Island to either figure out how to solve humanity's problems, or come to the realization that they couldn't be solved and maybe push the reset button. Seemed to be the crux of their argument on the beach. And as long as Jacob is trying to fix things, neither of them can leave...? So Jacob has to die.
What chains was Nemesis referring to?
I thought about the chains that Locke's dad was tied to the ruins with, when Locke was supposed to kill him.
But maybe Richard was a slave on the Black Rock, and Nemesis and Jacob disagreed on whether to release him or not.
Why is Nemesis disappointed in the people on the beach?
They're not nearly E-VIL enough. Perhaps they all chose to follow Jacob instead of Nemesis?
Where is Nemesis taking Richard?
The Natives at the Temple all seemed to think that Nemesis was making a b-line that way, and since Richard is on Nemesis' back...
What did the Temple leader want to talk to Jack about?
Spinal surgery?
The Natives at the Temple knew about Oceanic 815, and probably knew that Jack was the guy who was hell bent on getting off the Island and was leading his people to a conflict with their people. Things that make you go hmmm.
How did Sayid come to life again?
I guess the water worked? I assumed that Jacob took him over or something. When they pulled him out of the water, his arms were spread like he'd been crucified. Maybe his death and resurrection are symbolic? He said "what happened", same as Ben said when he'd been saved by the Natives at the temple. I'll bet he doesn't know he was shot, and I'll bet he's the new leader of the Others, and I'll bet he whoops Smokie's butt.
Side point: Another thing I thought about...
Christian Shepard is evidently NOT working with Nemesis, because Christian was inside the cabin when it was surrounded by black ash.
???
KiNgMyC
Starter
My buddy sent me this...http://content.usatoday.com/communi.../02/lost-in-a-flash-this-weeks-top-comments/1 a few interesting comments, some reinforcing Superman's thoughts.
Quick response to one of those ideas:
With one exception, that we've seen so far: When Charles Widmore wanted Ben to kill infant Alex, Ben refused, saying "it's a child!" So when he first joined the Dharma Initiative, he apparently did have a conscience. I think he's been misguided at times, feeling like he always had to have EVERYTHING in his control, no matter the cost, but he's not pure evil.
xrzn
Starter
So Claire aka Rousseau v2.0 and Sayid are down with the sickness according to Dogen. Now, wtf is the sickness? Are they people that MiB can possess later on after their heart goes completely dark or are they more like his pawns? They might even not be related at all, but the way things are going, i looks like they have some sort of connection.
Maybe MiB is building his own army like how Jacob did in last year's season finale. MiB infecting people could be the equivalent of Jacob's touch. After MiB gets enough pieces, his foot soldiers (the infected) will take on the others (the touched).
An interesting theory/idea I read on another site was about free will vs. determinism.
Dogen told Jack that Sayid had to take the pill "willingly." Why? The same way Ben had to kill Jacob willingly (Jacob even told Ben he had a choice), and the same way Jack had to operate on Ben willingly. Everything being done is by free will. In last year's season finale, there was this convo:
Jacob: You are wrong.
MiB: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.
MiB believes man is destined to fail. Jacob believes that man can learn from his mistakes to create a better future using free will.
MiB's goal is to remove the free will of those on the island and instead himself wants to determine the actions and decisions they make which create their destiny.
So now, MiB finds a loophole (Locke) to get Ben to kill Jacob. He now has Jacob out of the way and a body to use to walk the islands. He can now infect people which takes away a person's free will. These "claimed" people's (so far the only solid example is Claire) actions are determined by what MiB wants.
Claire's free will was taken away when Christian (MiB/smokey) infected her after the house in Othersville collapsed on her back in season 4. She was infected by smokey (not sure how) and wasn't her normal self after that. She ends up disappearing and she leaves her baby alone in the woods not by choice, but because Christian/MiB made that choice for her (not sure why he would, maybe to showoff his power?) and for her to remain on the island. Now she's "claimed" and part of MiB's zombie nation.
MiB wants destiny to become a result of determinism rather than free will so he can win his battle with Jacob. He'll now have the power to determine the actions of people rather than the people having the choice to make actions.
Does one create their own destiny or is their destiny determined? The question now is how will this decision be made? Do Claire and Sayid just have to overcome the infection or will there be some sort of allegorical battle, like I pointed out early, between the infected and non-infected? An even harder question is which one of these will prevail? I don't think the writers have the balls to lean one way over the other, so they'll probably try and settle somewhere in between.
Maybe MiB is building his own army like how Jacob did in last year's season finale. MiB infecting people could be the equivalent of Jacob's touch. After MiB gets enough pieces, his foot soldiers (the infected) will take on the others (the touched).
An interesting theory/idea I read on another site was about free will vs. determinism.
Dogen told Jack that Sayid had to take the pill "willingly." Why? The same way Ben had to kill Jacob willingly (Jacob even told Ben he had a choice), and the same way Jack had to operate on Ben willingly. Everything being done is by free will. In last year's season finale, there was this convo:
Jacob: You are wrong.
MiB: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.
MiB believes man is destined to fail. Jacob believes that man can learn from his mistakes to create a better future using free will.
MiB's goal is to remove the free will of those on the island and instead himself wants to determine the actions and decisions they make which create their destiny.
So now, MiB finds a loophole (Locke) to get Ben to kill Jacob. He now has Jacob out of the way and a body to use to walk the islands. He can now infect people which takes away a person's free will. These "claimed" people's (so far the only solid example is Claire) actions are determined by what MiB wants.
Claire's free will was taken away when Christian (MiB/smokey) infected her after the house in Othersville collapsed on her back in season 4. She was infected by smokey (not sure how) and wasn't her normal self after that. She ends up disappearing and she leaves her baby alone in the woods not by choice, but because Christian/MiB made that choice for her (not sure why he would, maybe to showoff his power?) and for her to remain on the island. Now she's "claimed" and part of MiB's zombie nation.
MiB wants destiny to become a result of determinism rather than free will so he can win his battle with Jacob. He'll now have the power to determine the actions of people rather than the people having the choice to make actions.
Does one create their own destiny or is their destiny determined? The question now is how will this decision be made? Do Claire and Sayid just have to overcome the infection or will there be some sort of allegorical battle, like I pointed out early, between the infected and non-infected? An even harder question is which one of these will prevail? I don't think the writers have the balls to lean one way over the other, so they'll probably try and settle somewhere in between.
xrzn
Starter
If you've ever watched It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, it's pretty hilarious to see "Mac" running around as an Other. I keep expecting him to bust out his karate moves.
He was in the episode "Not in Portland" in season 3 as an Other. He mentions what Kate did to him back then in last night's episode; she hit him with the butt of a rifle.
drboiffard
Bench
Did you see the last one?
I'm very intrigued about what the boy told Evil Locke about not killing people and following the rules...I thought Evil Locke/Black Smoke/Whatever you call it and Jacob were as opposed semi-gods, and people followed their rules, not the inverse. If he has to "follow some rules", it has to mean there's more than two demi-gods playing that kind of "evil vs good" chess in the island as the 5season final suggested.
And other thing is...I've started to think the alternate reality is not a alternate time branch in the way of Back to the Future II when Ben appaired there. Desmond on the plane was OK, he is the constant and all that stuff, but if that is really an alternate reality generated in the 77 when the explosion, Benjamin Linus should be dead because he was in the island as a kid in that time.
And other thing is...I've started to think the alternate reality is not a alternate time branch in the way of Back to the Future II when Ben appaired there. Desmond on the plane was OK, he is the constant and all that stuff, but if that is really an alternate reality generated in the 77 when the explosion, Benjamin Linus should be dead because he was in the island as a kid in that time.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
the last episode didn't wow me.
whats the deal w/ the smoke monster and the temple? what time era are they in right now? i'm.. lost lol
whats the deal w/ the smoke monster and the temple? what time era are they in right now? i'm.. lost lol
There was an evacuation before the blast that presumably went off in 1977. Ethan, Miles, Charlotte and Ben, and probably all the other children on the Island, left on the submarines. That's why Ben can be alive in this new timeline, or whatever it is. Again, that's based on the assumption that the bomb went off in 1977 and is actually the splinter point.
The first question, I could write a book on. While I'd love to write a book, I'm just not gonna. Go here: The smoke monster; The temple
As for what time era they are in, that depends on who you're talking about.
Everything we've seen happen this season on the Island, not in flashbacks, but in current time, is happening in 2007. Everything that we're seeing happening off the Island is happening in 2004.
Yeah, lots of great return cameos this season.
Especially in Alternate L.A. like Ethan and the redshirts, Arzt and Frogurt. Where are Nikki and Paulo?
I doubt we'll see Nikki and Paulo, although Nikki is fly and I wouldn't mind her making a cameo.
What's most disappointing is that, apparently, we're not going to get much more information about Walt. He's probably six feet tall with a mustache by now. Why do kids have to grow so fast, dang it? Should've went with Gary Coleman...
What's most disappointing is that, apparently, we're not going to get much more information about Walt. He's probably six feet tall with a mustache by now. Why do kids have to grow so fast, dang it? Should've went with Gary Coleman...
xrzn
Starter
The creepy little kid looked like a young Jacob to me or maybe an longer Aaron. It's pretty clear that there is a higher power refereeing the game Jacob and MiB are playing.
We don't have enough information yet to know when the island sank. One thing is certain though; if the Jughead going off did indeed cause the the flash sideways we are seeing, it not only affected the timeline at that point (the one we are seeing) but rather it was changed at a time before they got on the plane. The clues we have gotten are:
1. Desmond on the flight - he never ended up participating in the sailboat race?
2. Dr. Ethan "Goodspeed" - the fact he goes by this surname rather than "Rom" indicates that he was never born/left the island?
3. Helen asking Locke if they could just grab her parents and his dad and go to Vegas to get married (you could also see a picture of Locke with his father smiling on his cubicle, here is the picture) - Locke's father never pushed him out the window? I wonder how he became handicapped then.
4. Ben Linus now being a high school teacher - like Ethan, he never got on or left the island at an earlier time?
I'm sure we'll get more clues as the show goes on, but it's apparent this timeline/universe is completely different. I'm sure we'll find out Sawyer isn't a con-artist because if Locke and his father are on good terms, then maybe he never conned Sawyer's parents which led to their deaths and Sawyer becoming a con-artist.
Another clue is that skipped my mind is Hurley being the luckiest man in the world. So yeah, we know for certain that if the Jughead had something to do with the new timeline/universe, it affected them way before the time we are seeing.
We don't have enough information yet to know when the island sank. One thing is certain though; if the Jughead going off did indeed cause the the flash sideways we are seeing, it not only affected the timeline at that point (the one we are seeing) but rather it was changed at a time before they got on the plane. The clues we have gotten are:
1. Desmond on the flight - he never ended up participating in the sailboat race?
2. Dr. Ethan "Goodspeed" - the fact he goes by this surname rather than "Rom" indicates that he was never born/left the island?
3. Helen asking Locke if they could just grab her parents and his dad and go to Vegas to get married (you could also see a picture of Locke with his father smiling on his cubicle, here is the picture) - Locke's father never pushed him out the window? I wonder how he became handicapped then.
4. Ben Linus now being a high school teacher - like Ethan, he never got on or left the island at an earlier time?
I'm sure we'll get more clues as the show goes on, but it's apparent this timeline/universe is completely different. I'm sure we'll find out Sawyer isn't a con-artist because if Locke and his father are on good terms, then maybe he never conned Sawyer's parents which led to their deaths and Sawyer becoming a con-artist.
Another clue is that skipped my mind is Hurley being the luckiest man in the world. So yeah, we know for certain that if the Jughead had something to do with the new timeline/universe, it affected them way before the time we are seeing.
We've been hearing about rules for a while. Reminded me of when Widmore asked Ben if he was there to kill him, and Ben said "you know I can't do that," or something to that effect.
As to your thoughts on the timeline, if 1977 is the splinter point, then everything that happened prior to Jughead going off still happened. It's the 27 years since then that are different.
1) Desmond wouldn't have participated in the race if Charles Widmore was still on the Island when Jughead went off. I'm assuming Penny was born before then, so Desmond could have still been with her, and he's wearing a wedding ring when he's talking to Jack on the plane.
2) Ethan was born in 1977, prior to the blast. He and his mother would have been evacuated, and he wouldn't have any memory of the Island. I think the name "Rom" was an alias for his time off the Island. We know Ben had several aliases, one of them being Dean Moriarty. I don't know where else we heard the last name Rom, other than when he and Richard were recruiting Juliet. Horace Goodspeed is Ethan's father, so that's his actual last name.
3) I'm wondering the same thing. But remember how John met Helen in the first place? At the anger management meeting, after his father stole his kidney. So how much is actually different? And if his father didn't steal his kidney, which eventually led to him being pushed out the window and winding up in a wheelchair, then how did he wind up in the wheelchair this time?
4) Ben was probably part of the evacuation, too. But he was on the Island before 1977, that's for sure.
And on Sawyer, his parents died in 1976, so it's still possible that Locke's dad conned them.
As to your thoughts on the timeline, if 1977 is the splinter point, then everything that happened prior to Jughead going off still happened. It's the 27 years since then that are different.
1) Desmond wouldn't have participated in the race if Charles Widmore was still on the Island when Jughead went off. I'm assuming Penny was born before then, so Desmond could have still been with her, and he's wearing a wedding ring when he's talking to Jack on the plane.
2) Ethan was born in 1977, prior to the blast. He and his mother would have been evacuated, and he wouldn't have any memory of the Island. I think the name "Rom" was an alias for his time off the Island. We know Ben had several aliases, one of them being Dean Moriarty. I don't know where else we heard the last name Rom, other than when he and Richard were recruiting Juliet. Horace Goodspeed is Ethan's father, so that's his actual last name.
3) I'm wondering the same thing. But remember how John met Helen in the first place? At the anger management meeting, after his father stole his kidney. So how much is actually different? And if his father didn't steal his kidney, which eventually led to him being pushed out the window and winding up in a wheelchair, then how did he wind up in the wheelchair this time?
4) Ben was probably part of the evacuation, too. But he was on the Island before 1977, that's for sure.
And on Sawyer, his parents died in 1976, so it's still possible that Locke's dad conned them.
xrzn
Starter
1. I looked through many screen captures and saw no ring. I have the episode on my DVR, if I get time later, I'll watch the scene again. Here is the best picture of Desmond's left hand:
2. Ethan told Hurley his name was Ethan Rom when Hurley was checking to see if anyone of the survivors was not on the 815's passenger list. There was also a survivor from the tail section of the plane that Goodwin killed, Nathan Rome. Ethan could've pretended to get by by using a name similar to that, not sure why he wouldn't lie and just say Nathan Rome though. Fun fact; Ethan Rom is an anagram for "other man" and Nathan Rome is an anagram for "another man."
3. Maybe Locke was at the anger management meeting for another reason or they met under other circumstances? We need a lot more enough to draw any solid conclusions about why he ended up in a wheelchair and how they could've met.
4. If the plane never crashes and the series of events that take place leading to Faraday and company going back in time to warn Dr. Chang about the incident never take place, that would mean there was no evacuation. That would also mean young Ben would've been on the island. That's why I'm assuming this new timeline/universe goes far further in the past. Maybe Roger never goes to work for Dharma?
Only explanation I could have for Sawyer's parents not getting conned if what I said about Ben; the new universe was affected even further than 1976.
2. Ethan told Hurley his name was Ethan Rom when Hurley was checking to see if anyone of the survivors was not on the 815's passenger list. There was also a survivor from the tail section of the plane that Goodwin killed, Nathan Rome. Ethan could've pretended to get by by using a name similar to that, not sure why he wouldn't lie and just say Nathan Rome though. Fun fact; Ethan Rom is an anagram for "other man" and Nathan Rome is an anagram for "another man."
3. Maybe Locke was at the anger management meeting for another reason or they met under other circumstances? We need a lot more enough to draw any solid conclusions about why he ended up in a wheelchair and how they could've met.
4. If the plane never crashes and the series of events that take place leading to Faraday and company going back in time to warn Dr. Chang about the incident never take place, that would mean there was no evacuation. That would also mean young Ben would've been on the island. That's why I'm assuming this new timeline/universe goes far further in the past. Maybe Roger never goes to work for Dharma?
Only explanation I could have for Sawyer's parents not getting conned if what I said about Ben; the new universe was affected even further than 1976.
1. I looked through many screen captures and saw no ring. I have the episode on my DVR, if I get time later, I'll watch the scene again. Here is the best picture of Desmond's left hand:
That's his right hand. Check the DVR. Let me know if I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure he's wearing a ring.
That's where it's from. Still, Goodspeed is his dad's name, thus making it his name.2. Ethan told Hurley his name was Ethan Rom when Hurley was checking to see if anyone of the survivors was not on the 815's passenger list. There was also a survivor from the tail section of the plane that Goodwin killed, Nathan Rome. Ethan could've pretended to get by by using a name similar to that, not sure why he wouldn't lie and just say Nathan Rome though. Fun fact; Ethan Rom is an anagram for "other man" and Nathan Rome is an anagram for "another man."
During the meeting, he told them why he was there. "You want your damned $30 back? I want my kidney back!" It's possible he was there for other reasons, or that he met her under different circumstances. I was just pointing out that he was in anger management because of the kidney episode, and now he's still close with his dad, so he probably didn't get conned out of his internal organ.
This is where branching universe theory takes it's affect.
What I think happened, based on what we've seen so far, is that the bomb goes off in 1977, altering the stream of time: past for the Losties, future for Dharma and the Others.
But Daniel Faraday already told us that you can't change the past. That's why he said that Jack would have to do something really significant in order to undo everything. Branching universe theory both reinforces that idea, because it basically says that in order to change the past, you have to significantly affect the events that were destined to happen.
However, this theory states that, even when you create such a significant event, the actual affect is that you now have two streams of time running side by side. The first is what already happened, the series of events that caused you to go back in time and try to change the past in the first place. The second is the result of your attempt to change the past. It's like trying to divert a river, but actually causing it to split in two. So, in reality, you can't just change the past, because that would create a paradox (you can't go back and kill your parents, because then you wouldn't exist to have gone back in the first place). The universe solves paradoxes by creating a parallel timeline wherein all events are based on your actions.
How that would relate to LOST, if my theory is right (and it might not be), is that when Jughead went off in 1977, it created an alternate, parallel timeline, in which the Island is at the bottom of the Pacific, Charles Widmore is there as well, Dharma never builds the Hatch, Desmond never enters the sailing race, Hurley never hears the numbers (so what numbers did he play?), and Oceanic 815 never crashes. It's in this timeline that all the women and children evacuated the Island and never came back, leaving Ben and Ethan to grow up on the mainland.
But in the original timeline, all the events that we've seen in these five seasons still happened. Dharma still builds the hatch, Desmond still fails to push the button, 815 still crashes, Ben still moves the Island and it still skips around in time and settles in 1974, and Jack and Kate still come back to 1977, and Faraday still tries to help them stop everything from happening. And then, once they set the bomb off, as time from that point forward is splintering into two separate streams, they are transported back to 2007, where they are now.
IF that's the case, and IF Jughead 1977 is our splinter point, then Sawyer's parents were already dead, having been conned by Locke's father.
This is just my theory. I'm no physicist, and that's a really rudimentary understanding of branching universe theory, but it's really the only way we could have two separate timelines.
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NME
Starter
In the alternate timeline, if they never crashed on the island, then they also didn't skip around in time and effect earlier points in history, like their interactions with Mrs. Hawking, Widmore, and Richard in the 50's. Richard wouldn't have visited Locke in his youth. The Island/Jacob wouldn't have been shaping the fates of the other Losties throughout their lives in order to lead them to that crash. So, there are lots of ways that the butterfly effect of that explosion could cause changes in the other timeline earlier than 1977.
xrzn
Starter
Just checked and you were right (well, we're both right, you added evidence to what I said
), he's got a ring on his left hand.Oh yeah, I knew that. He's Horace's kid. Again, we are in agreement.
I'm saying in this new timeline/universe, he could've been in anger management for some other reason or met other somewhere else. But yeah, we can safely assume he's still close with his dad.
That all perfectly makes sense. One thing to keep in mind though is we see the Dharma barracks submerged beneath the ocean along with the four toed statue, as well as a shark with the Dharma logo on it. So Dharma was on the island and the hatches should've still been built.
Coincidently (or maybe it was fate?
), I read a very interesting and plausible theory a few hours ago explaining why the island is underwater. Remember back in "There's No Place Like Home, Part 2" when Ben turned the donkey wheel? We all assumed that island physically vanished to another time and teleported Ben to Tunisia in 2004/2005, but if you remember the scene it looks as if it physically sinks into the ocean. We know for sure that everyone on the island time travels to another point of the islands existence. The only problem with this theory we see the island is underneath the water on September 22nd, 2004 which is when Oceanic 815 took off in both timelines (assuming it still is Oceanic 815 in the alternate timeline). Ben turned the donkey wheel at least 100 days after 815 crashed. So if Ben turning the wheel did indeed cause the island to sink, I'm not sure how we can conclude it was underwater in the alt timeline unless it wasn't relevant when he turned the wheel as long as he turned it.edit: I found a BIG HOLE in the theory I posted above. I completely forgot about Ajira Airways crash-landing on the island. If it were underwater, it obviously wouldn't be able to. Anyone have an explanation for that and for the problem I mentioned with the theory? I really liked this idea and I still do, but it seems like it has too many flaws to work.
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drboiffard
Bench
Well, what a chapter.
That John Locke Smoke has really bad temper.
So we have Hugo, Jack, Ben, Sun Lapidus, that Ana Lucia-like merc and Sun on the Jacob team, while Sayid, Claire, Sawyer and (a very probable future bandwagoner I bet) Kate in the Dark Smoke team. The game is gonna start...
I really like the fact that the massacre is relatively done yet, and they're not waiting to the end of the season, because that leaves enough room to more interesting things.
I can see coming soon a Jack/Claire drama both in the island and in the alternative reality with the testament and all that stuff. What I don't know if what Jacob wants Jack to discover by its own it's gonna be just about Claire's situation, or it's a bigger-than-life issue. Maybe a mix.
But further from that... I don't know what is really gonna happen. I'd like to see some of the out-of-the-island issues explained. I mean, what happens with Richard Wildmore, who exactly is sending the mercs who brought the real Locke body to the island, etc. Desmond is obviously going to be the key. Can't wait to his own chapter.
Can't wait to the next... shiiiit
So we have Hugo, Jack, Ben, Sun Lapidus, that Ana Lucia-like merc and Sun on the Jacob team, while Sayid, Claire, Sawyer and (a very probable future bandwagoner I bet) Kate in the Dark Smoke team. The game is gonna start...
I really like the fact that the massacre is relatively done yet, and they're not waiting to the end of the season, because that leaves enough room to more interesting things.
I can see coming soon a Jack/Claire drama both in the island and in the alternative reality with the testament and all that stuff. What I don't know if what Jacob wants Jack to discover by its own it's gonna be just about Claire's situation, or it's a bigger-than-life issue. Maybe a mix.
But further from that... I don't know what is really gonna happen. I'd like to see some of the out-of-the-island issues explained. I mean, what happens with Richard Wildmore, who exactly is sending the mercs who brought the real Locke body to the island, etc. Desmond is obviously going to be the key. Can't wait to his own chapter.
Can't wait to the next... shiiiit
LoungeLizard
Starter
I really can't believe this is almost over. What a great ride it has been. Gotta say I was a little disappointed in last weeks episode, though it did provide some background and context. I guess a Lost episode devoid of Jack, Hurley, Kate, Sawyer, Locke, et al. is a bit of a let down for me. Like you, I am looking forward to tonight and Sunday.
(The Lost nerd in me is even considering the Fathom event in the theatres on Thursday
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