Like Sam Cooke said "Change Gone Come"

[AriesMar27]

hell...i expect to see a pork job on another teams website....especially where artest is concerned....and frankly peja for artest or mobley for artest would be a pretty good pork job any way u look at it....

but hell....this guy didnt stop there....lol...he wants to throw in jones too...im assuming hes talking fred jones....but either jones is the same result....that would be even worse than the brad miller fiasco....

hell....we might as well be the sacramento farm team if we are gonna do that....at least get some recognition and benefit for providing with u players at basically no cost...

i just said jones for the hell of it... but someone would need to be thrown in because mobley and artest make the same amount of money and mobley would be making more than artest if he were sin and traded to the pacers.... it could be a scrub or future pick... but artest straight up wouldnt work once mobley was resigned.....

hell mobley seems to a 4th qtr wonder... and is a hell of a lot more mellow than artest.... that would definitely be more appealing that someone who cant get his own shot and disappears in the playoffs like peja... the pacer arent going to get much for artest.... what teams have something tha tthey would want and that team was willing to trade?

redd? allen? maybe send him to boston for pierce.... mobley would easily be their best bet.... because no one else is going to trade their best and usually highest paid player for artest..... that and i just like jones.... hell, id trade mobley for jones.... but i wouldnt want to pay jones that much..... he isnt worth it, if he were joe johnson... maybe....

 

[foretaz]

realize this when u think of a peja for artest deal....and it was somewhat alluded to before....

only way bird makes that trade is if he feels there is no way artest is never a huge risk....meaning despite professional help, he thinks another meltdown in epic proportions is not only possible, but probable...

otherwise he wouldnt make that trade....artest simply brings so much more to the basketball court than peja does....the only similarities these two ball players have are their salaries....if it werent for that, theyd never be mentioned in the same breath....

i dont think bird feels that way about artest, in fact, i think its probably just the opposite...more like the lightning only strikes once theory....but time will tell....im only guessing, like we all are

 

[Alacron]

We should definitely trade Peja for Artest.

And then, later, if there's some way to sign Ricky Williams as a free agent, we should do that too.
~~

 

[loopymitch]

The nutcase part is the problem -- such a risk. He could easily sink the Pacers again next year, or us, or whoever has him.

But if I knew 100% beforehand that he WASN'T going to sink us? Absolutely I want him here. Sacto has nice-guyed itself right into pussyhood at his point -- I think if I was playing against us I'd just walk right over in pregame warmups and pop one of our guys on the nose as a greeting, and have absolutely no fear of retalitation whatsoever. In fact the impression you get is that he'd probably miss the game and be spotted in the stands with his mommy holding a hankie to his bloody nose. That's got to end. And if it takes a slightly psycho thug to do it, so be it. There is a significant testosterone element to male professional contact sports, and we are severely lacking. So at this point my ONLY real objection to Artest is the fact I don't trust him to be there for us if we need him (nor does anyone -- only reason he's on the market). Was different when we had a championship caliber team's chemsitry/cohesiveness to consider. Now we're just one of those teams trying to get better and patch our glaring weaknesses.

P.S. It should be noted that he does not "fit our offense" either, to which I am rapidly saying "so the hell what?" The offense is nice. But its never won anything. And talent is talent and as we start rebuilding the new offense should be built around it, not the other way around. Vlade and Webb made the Princeton work so beautifully. Neither guy is here anymore. so if you have to tweak it for our new players, so be it.

That's a very big IF, Brick.

 

[CaminoChaos]

if our gaurds could have keep there men out of the paint we don't have to put ppl on there arse.

mo. evans was a defensive stopper last year when his number was called. I believe from what i saw that mo. can be a better defender than christie was.

give us a pf that rebounds, plays interior d and blocks shots and we are on the right track. whether you like it or not, bibby, peja, miller and bobby gives us enough offense to win games. there aren't that many teams with that much fire power.

and with stoppers at the most offensiveley dominate positions(PF and SG) we can make an impact in the league

 

[thesanityannex]

Sacto has nice-guyed itself right into pussyhood at his point -- I think if I was playing against us I'd just walk right over in pregame warmups and pop one of our guys on the nose as a greeting, and have absolutely no fear of retalitation whatsoever. .

This is way too true.

 

[Venom]

if our gaurds could have keep there men out of the paint we don't have to put ppl on there arse.

mo. evans was a defensive stopper last year when his number was called. I believe from what i saw that mo. can be a better defender than christie was.

give us a pf that rebounds, plays interior d and blocks shots and we are on the right track. whether you like it or not, bibby, peja, miller and bobby gives us enough offense to win games. there aren't that many teams with that much fire power.

and with stoppers at the most offensiveley dominate positions(PF and SG) we can make an impact in the league

Are you serious? The Spurs and the Pistons are the two best defensive teams in the league, and they still have guys penetrate on them. That is going to happen. But you need solid defensive rotation, and you need to give hard fouls sometimes. A guy may beat to the hole once, but he'll think again before trying to take it all the way to the cup if he had to scrape himself off the floor last time.

 

[kingsfannPDX]

This is way too true.

it wasn't a couple of years ago. ask rick fox!!

 

[NewMonkey]

But if I knew 100% beforehand that he WASN'T going to sink us? Absolutely I want him here. Sacto has nice-guyed itself right into pussyhood at his point -- I think if I was playing against us I'd just walk right over in pregame warmups and pop one of our guys on the nose as a greeting, and have absolutely no fear of retalitation whatsoever. In fact the impression you get is that he'd probably miss the game and be spotted in the stands with his mommy holding a hankie to his bloody nose. That's got to end. And if it takes a slightly psycho thug to do it, so be it. There is a significant testosterone element to male professional contact sports, and we are severely lacking. So at this point my ONLY real objection to Artest is the fact I don't trust him to be there for us if we need him (nor does anyone -- only reason he's on the market). Was different when we had a championship caliber team's chemsitry/cohesiveness to consider. Now we're just one of those teams trying to get better and patch our glaring weaknesses.

Say what you want about Corliss and Brian Skinner, but they're both willing to put some wood on a guy (especially Corliss). There is a value in that toughness that doesn't get talked about much when discussing Corliss not fitting in with the offense and Skinner's late season fade.

 

[kennadog]

I want defense on the Kings as much as any other fan. But there has to be better options out there than Artest.

This is a man who has been in anger management counseling since he was 8 years old! He's also been on medications to try and control his behavioral problems. Expecting a change of teams to cure a deep-seated personality/behavioral problem is really going out on a very weak limb.

Can Artest change? Sure, anyone truly motivated and receiving some serious help/counseling/medication can learn to control their impulses. Wife-beaters, addicts, gamblers, etc. can change. Its just that the odds aren't very good. I don't think I want to risk the Kings chances on those slim odds. The Pacers likely won't consider trading him, unless they believe he represents an unacceptable risk to their team. That should give any GM pause.

Lightening hasn't struck just once with Artest. It's struck over and over and over. And you just can't compare Rasheed Wallace to Artest. Although he had his problems on the court and with the media, by all accounts he was considered a great teammate and apparently was a great guy in the community doing an exceptional amount of community/charitable work. Maybe he was just unhappy playing for the Blazers. On the other hand, Artest has long, documented history of anger management/behavioral problems. Big difference.

Artest is the classic tragic figure. A person who has great talent and ability, but is brought down by his character flaws. Sad really, but I don't want it to be my team that gets burned next.

 

[VF21]

I want defense on the Kings as much as any other fan. But there has to be better options out there than Artest.

This is a man who has been in anger management counseling since he was 8 years old! He's also been on medications to try and control his behavioral problems. Expecting a change of teams to cure a deep-seated personality/behavioral problem is really going out on a very weak limb.

Can Artest change? Sure, anyone truly motivated and receiving some serious help/counseling/medication can learn to control their impulses. Wife-beaters, addicts, gamblers, etc. can change. Its just that the odds aren't very good. I don't think I want to risk the Kings chances on those slim odds. The Pacers likely won't consider trading him, unless they believe he represents an unacceptable risk to their team. That should give any GM pause.

Lightening hasn't struck just once with Artest. It's struck over and over and over. And you just can't compare Rasheed Wallace to Artest. Although he had his problems on the court and with the media, by all accounts he was considered a great teammate and apparently was a great guy in the community doing an exceptional amount of community/charitable work. Maybe he was just unhappy playing for the Blazers. On the other hand, Artest has long, documented history of anger management/behavioral problems. Big difference.

Artest is the classic tragic figure. A person who has great talent and ability, but is brought down by his character flaws. Sad really, but I don't want it to be my team that gets burned next.

About as complete and concise a narrative on Ron Artest I've read anywhere. I think you hit the nail on the head, especially in the last paragraph.

Bravo.

 

[kennadog]

TY VF21. I really feel sorry for the guy, just not sorry enough to want him here.

 

[ParniValjak]

I want defense on the Kings as much as any other fan. But there has to be better options out there than Artest.

This is a man who has been in anger management counseling since he was 8 years old! He's also been on medications to try and control his behavioral problems. Expecting a change of teams to cure a deep-seated personality/behavioral problem is really going out on a very weak limb.

Can Artest change? Sure, anyone truly motivated and receiving some serious help/counseling/medication can learn to control their impulses. Wife-beaters, addicts, gamblers, etc. can change. Its just that the odds aren't very good. I don't think I want to risk the Kings chances on those slim odds. The Pacers likely won't consider trading him, unless they believe he represents an unacceptable risk to their team. That should give any GM pause.

Lightening hasn't struck just once with Artest. It's struck over and over and over. And you just can't compare Rasheed Wallace to Artest. Although he had his problems on the court and with the media, by all accounts he was considered a great teammate and apparently was a great guy in the community doing an exceptional amount of community/charitable work. Maybe he was just unhappy playing for the Blazers. On the other hand, Artest has long, documented history of anger management/behavioral problems. Big difference.

Artest is the classic tragic figure. A person who has great talent and ability, but is brought down by his character flaws. Sad really, but I don't want it to be my team that gets burned next.

Exceptional Post

 

[thesanityannex]

it wasn't a couple of years ago. ask rick fox!!

why ask him when i can look at it everyday in my avatar.

 

[Venom]

Lightening hasn't struck just once with Artest. It's struck over and over and over. And you just can't compare Rasheed Wallace to Artest. Although he had his problems on the court and with the media, by all accounts he was considered a great teammate and apparently was a great guy in the community doing an exceptional amount of community/charitable work. Maybe he was just unhappy playing for the Blazers. On the other hand, Artest has long, documented history of anger management/behavioral problems. Big difference.

Rasheed had a fair amount of incidents himself, and he was not considered a great teammate in Portland. He probably was to some of the guys, but that was a locker room with numerous factions in it, to the point that they would pick on guys in practice and bully them. And what off the court problems has Artest had? There is not a big difference between Rasheed and Artest. The only difference is the Auburn Hills incident, which is huge to some and small to others. But Rasheed never had a beer thrown in his face during his Portland days, so who knows? He was every bit the loose cannon, on the court, that Artest has been. Artest is active in his community as well. Charles Barkley used to get in bar fights regularly, but no one is calling him a monster and everything wrong with sports. I find it funny that we have guys like Sean Taylor and Mike Doss, NFL safeties, shooting at people, but Artest is the epitome of every bad athlete out there.

 

[VF21]

Sorry, Venom, but I think you're just trying to build Artest up by making Wallace appear worse. And I don't think there's any need or validity to bring Charles Barkley or some guys from the NFL into the mix since I strongly doubt if Petrie is going to consider getting them for the Kings. If you like Artest, fine. But that doesn't detract in any way from the excellent points kennadog made. For a number of us, the potential for Artest to do ONE MORE bad act on the court is too great a risk. He simply doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes OR his years of anger management therapy.

 

[kennadog]

I do not not think Ron Artest is a monster. On the contrary, I think he may be well-intentioned and kind when not in the throes of an outburst he can't control. I also do not think he is "crazy". I do think he has a rather severe behavioral/personality problem. I am not a fan of Rasheed's behavior in Portland either, but I think there is a difference between extremely immature behavior and severe behavioral problems. It's a matter of degree.

Artest has had problems almost his whole life. There have been numerous incidents from childhood on. Here's an old (very) ESPN article that talks about it.

http://espn.go.com/magazine/vol6no02artest.html

It's easy to see where the anger comes from. What's sad is that it is pretty clear that a lot of people in his life have encouraged and praised his over-the-top, bad-boy behavior. I sincerely wish Artest all the best and hope he can someday find a release from the demons so clearly hounding him. That doesn't mean I want the Kings to experiment with nitroglycerine. If it blows there could be a whole lot of damage done.

 

[Venom]

Sorry, Venom, but I think you're just trying to build Artest up by making Wallace appear worse. And I don't think there's any need or validity to bring Charles Barkley or some guys from the NFL into the mix since I strongly doubt if Petrie is going to consider getting them for the Kings. If you like Artest, fine. But that doesn't detract in any way from the excellent points kennadog made. For a number of us, the potential for Artest to do ONE MORE bad act on the court is too great a risk. He simply doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes OR his years of anger management therapy.

Whatever.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Artest is a head case who has shown virtualy no sign of maturing, infact he seems to wallow in his own nut bag. Comparing him to a focused player with a temper like Wallace is to over look his history of off court problems. A better comparson could be drawn to Rodman.

 

[Venom]

Artest is a head case who has shown virtualy no sign of maturing, infact he seems to wallow in his own nut bag. Comparing him to a focused player with a temper like Wallace is to over look his history of off court problems. A better comparson could be drawn to Rodman.

Again, what are these mythical off-court problems everyone keeps talking about? How many arrests does he have? Does he beat his wife? Has he been cited repeatedly for drug possession, like Wallace? Because everybody knows that smoking copious amounts of weed adds to your focus.

Rodman, another fierce competitor who had a bizarre knack for being on winning and championship teams. . .I guess that would fit.

 

[Bricklayer]

Artest's season ending brawl wasn't the big straw for me -- it was his ludicrous desire to take time off from the season to go promote his rap album. Now THAT told me something, although I'm not sure what. Call it a complete lack of focus, drive, priorities, seriousness, dependability or whatever. But far more than fighting, that was the big red flag for me. The threat that this guy might go Ricky Williams on you. Or in basketball terms, Brian Williams/Bison Dele.

Now he is clearly a little disturbed anyway, and has easily the least control of his temper problems of any major player in the NBA right now. But its the implication that its not searing intensity so much as rampant confusion that casts him as potentially a tragic Mike Tysonesque figure. Ferocity is a great and lovely trait in a professional athlete. I LOVE his intimidation factor. If he was sane and in control he'd be one of the very best. But ferocity eats some people up when they can neither control, understand, or in the end make peace with it. I would feel far more comfortable with Artest if he was simply out on the court being a complete *******, splattering guys left and right, knocking them out of the air, crunching them to the court and standing over them taunting them. That I would understand and trust. He'd be an *******, but one acting with malice and aforethought -- a scary figure that would test the manhood of everyone who played against him. He'd be in control. As it is I'm not at all sure he is. He seems like one of those guys teetering, who could burnout, implode, explode, quit the game on you, respond to none of the normal inspirations, coachign tricks, more money whatever...I'm just not at all sure he gets it or has the stability to hold it all together.

 

[VF21]

Whatever.

Great response.

At this point I will choose to agree to disagree with you over Ron Artest. IF he shows up in Sacramento, then it will be worth revisiting. Otherwise, for me at least, the subject has been totally and completely beaten to death...

 

[SoupIsGood]

Artest's season ending brawl wasn't the big straw for me -- it was his ludicrous desire to take time off from the season to go promote his rap album. Now THAT told me something, although I'm not sure what. Call it a complete lack of focus, drive, priorities, seriousness, dependability or whatever. But far more than fighting, that was the big red flag for me. The threat that this guy might go Ricky Williams on you. Or in basketball terms, Brian Williams/Bison Dele.

That's what was floated in the media, but it's not what happened. Artest's grandmother had just died, and he wanted some time off. Now, for whatever reason, Ron didn't tell anyone on the team about his grandma, but asked for time off "because his body was hurting." Perhaps Ron didn't think someone as 'macho' as him shouldn't need to mourn, I don't know.

He never asked time off for the CD, though.

 

[thesanityannex]

Artest's season ending brawl wasn't the big straw for me -- it was his ludicrous desire to take time off from the season to go promote his rap album. Now THAT told me something, although I'm not sure what. Call it a complete lack of focus, drive, priorities, seriousness, dependability or whatever. But far more than fighting, that was the big red flag for me. .

Although he sucks lyrically, and won't sell a lick in the rap industry, it is HIS choice to follow whatever dreams he has, not ours. We can't label him as a man with a lack of focus, drive, priorities, seriousness, dependability(well, this one maybe)

He is showing desire and focus in another arena besides the NBA, big deal.
Let the Pacers deal with that.

 

[Bricklayer]

Although he sucks lyrically, and won't sell a lick in the rap industry, it is HIS choice to follow whatever dreams he has, not ours. We can't label him as a man with a lack of focus, drive, priorities, seriousness, dependability(well, this one maybe)

It is Ricky Williams' choice to follow whatever his dreams are too. But when you are a professional sports franchise that has invested millions of dollars, a precious roster spot, and burned valuable trade resources to bring in a major guy, if he goes south on you because he wants to follow his dream to be a hairstylist its a disaster. Hence, a lack of drive, focus, priorities, seriousness, dependability about the one and ONLY thing that matters in the NBA arena. Basketball. And unfortunately when a man turns his back on his gift, walks away from money, fame, excellence, whatever right in his prime, it is an enormously bad sign that he's got serious issues that you do NOT want to have to deal with as a pro sports franchise. The antithesis of the dedicated hardworking athlete you are looking for -- the guy so confused over what and who he is that he doesn't even want to be there. Give me a thug, but a 100% dedicated thug who knows who he is, any day of the week over someone who is lost, no matter how talented.

 

[Venom]

Artest's season ending brawl wasn't the big straw for me -- it was his ludicrous desire to take time off from the season to go promote his rap album. Now THAT told me something, although I'm not sure what. Call it a complete lack of focus, drive, priorities, seriousness, dependability or whatever. But far more than fighting, that was the big red flag for me. The threat that this guy might go Ricky Williams on you. Or in basketball terms, Brian Williams/Bison Dele.

Now he is clearly a little disturbed anyway, and has easily the least control of his temper problems of any major player in the NBA right now. But its the implication that its not searing intensity so much as rampant confusion that casts him as potentially a tragic Mike Tysonesque figure. Ferocity is a great and lovely trait in a professional athlete. I LOVE his intimidation factor. If he was sane and in control he'd be one of the very best. But ferocity eats some people up when they can neither control, understand, or in the end make peace with it. I would feel far more comfortable with Artest if he was simply out on the court being a complete *******, splattering guys left and right, knocking them out of the air, crunching them to the court and standing over them taunting them. That I would understand and trust. He'd be an *******, but one acting with malice and aforethought -- a scary figure that would test the manhood of everyone who played against him. He'd be in control. As it is I'm not at all sure he is. He seems like one of those guys teetering, who could burnout, implode, explode, quit the game on you, respond to none of the normal inspirations, coachign tricks, more money whatever...I'm just not at all sure he gets it or has the stability to hold it all together.

See, this I can understand and appreciate. An actual analysis of his on-court antics. People regurtitating the same tired lines they read from that idiot on the back page of Sports Illustrated just doesn't cut it. Brick, you hit on the one pseudo off-court problem he had that does raise question marks, and I commend you for it. As far as his standing as a citizen, aside from the NBA, he doesn't have any blemishes. But people want to make him out to be some serial felon.

By the way, I still have not heard a compelling argument for why Rasheed is worlds apart from Artest. Rasheed is the guy who introduced "CTC" to the popular lexicon. I don't think Artest has EVER said that he only cares about money. But all you amateur psychiatrists know better than me.

 

[thesanityannex]

It is Ricky Williams' choice to follow whatever his dreams are too. But when you are a professional sports franchise that has invested millions of dollars, a precious roster spot, and burned valuable trade resources to bring in a major guy, if he goes south on you because he wants to follow his dream to be a hairstylist its a disaster. Hence, a lack of drive, focus, priorities, seriousness, dependability about the one and ONLY thing that matters in the NBA arena. Basketball. And unfortunately when a man turns his back on his gift, walks away from money, fame, excellence, whatever right in his prime, it is an enormously bad sign that he's got serious issues that you do NOT want to have to deal with as a pro sports franchise. The antithesis of the dedicated hardworking athlete you are looking for -- the guy so confused over what and who he is that he doesn't even want to be there. Give me a thug, but a 100% dedicated thug who knows who he is, any day of the week over someone who is lost, no matter how talented.

Well, we both agree he is not dependable. At all. Being as he is not on the Kings, not a problem for us. Maybe Ricky and Ron need to get together and puff some of Ricky's stuff, it could help calm down Mad Man Ron.

 

[VF21]

See, this I can understand and appreciate. An actual analysis of his on-court antics. People regurtitating the same tired lines they read from that idiot on the back page of Sports Illustrated just doesn't cut it. Brick, you hit on the one pseudo off-court problem he had that does raise question marks, and I commend you for it. As far as his standing as a citizen, aside from the NBA, he doesn't have any blemishes. But people want to make him out to be some serial felon.

By the way, I still have not heard a compelling argument for why Rasheed is worlds apart from Artest. Rasheed is the guy who introduced "CTC" to the popular lexicon. I don't think Artest has EVER said that he only cares about money. But all you amateur psychiatrists know better than me.

This is a message board. People exchange thoughts and ideas and varying opinions. Yours are no better or worse than anyone else's.

 

[Venom]

This is a message board. People exchange thoughts and ideas and varying opinions. Yours are no better or worse than anyone else's.

I'm still curious as to what these off-court Artest issues are.

 

[VF21]

Every game is still the end-game for Artest. No matter how aware he is of his temper, no matter how earnestly he struggles to control it, every glare or taunt from an opponent brings him right back to the trauma of his childhood, when he failed to stop the disaster unfolding around him. He is disappointed in himself every time he loses his temper. He is ashamed of the time he verbally assaulted ex-girlfriend Jennifer Palma over the phone, telling her -- according to a complaint filed by Palma -- "If you don't call back, I'm going to have to hurt you." He can't bear the fact that once, in a fight, he shoved her. He meant it when he told Walsh he sure could use counseling, but any perceived threat to his livelihood turns Ron the maturing professional basketball player back into Ron-Ron the cornered little boy. At the first of his 26 mandatory therapy sessions in December, the therapist asked Artest why he gets so angry. Ron looked at the doctor with eyes wide and pleading, and said, "It's because I'm being spoiled and I want things my way."

That's just the tip of the iceberg...

Look at the man. Watch him play. Watch him rip a phone out of press row, bust a blackboard, charge into a locker room after a loss and scream at his teammates, "Ain't nobody eating! Nobody deserves to eat!" Watch him hurl a TV monitor to the floor after a loss in New York and then smash a $100,000 camera to bits.

That's a man with problems, and no proof they won't flare up again.