Lance: 'Stale, unfounded, untrue'

I'm not sure what he has gone through has to do with anything. If there is evidence that one of the greatest cyclists ever cheated, then it is certainly newsworthy.

Not that the allegations in the story are all that convincing.
 
I hate to say it but I find it hard to believe that just about every top cyclist hasn't bent the rules one way or another. They should just focus on cleaning up the sport as a whole rather than whatever petty tiff they have about an American winning 7 straight Tours de France.
 
I'm not sure what he has gone through has to do with anything. If there is evidence that one of the greatest cyclists ever cheated, then it is certainly newsworthy.

Not that the allegations in the story are all that convincing.

There not(the allegations of him) and that is the point. It seems some people are trying to discredit him. None of the allegations against him are true but it does not stop people trying to ruin his reputation. That is what I was really commenting on when I said what I said in the first post. What more does he need to do inorder get people like some of the French and their media to get off his back. It is sad to see a sports hero and cancer survivalist to get treated like he has from some people.
 
There not(the allegations of him) and that is the point. It seems some people are trying to discredit him. None of the allegations against him are true but it does not stop people trying to ruin his reputation. That is what I was really commenting on when I said what I said in the first post. What more does he need to do inorder get people like some of the French and their media to get off his back. It is sad to see a sports hero and cancer survivalist to get treated like he has from some people.

The fact that he survived cancer does not imply he didn't use doping. I agree that the French can be extremely sour grapes, but the other side is "Gee, he survived cancer, so he must be a saint".

I'm not saying he did use doping. But I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Cycling is probably the sport with most doping cases (which doesn't mean it's the sport where most doping is used -- you'd have to consider the probability of getting tested positive, having possible coverups, etc). It has the reputation of being as unclean as it can get.

A cynical view would be that everybody uses doping. In that case though, Armstrong still bettered his opponents in equal circumstances. So even if he did use doping, I'm not sure it would change his achievements, because of the possibility of everybody using doping.
 
Maybe this should get its own thread, but Jan Ulrich and Ivan Basso are among roughly 60+ riders purged from this year's tour on suspicions of doping. They weren't actually caught or proven guilty, just suspected of it. It sounds like Armstrong picked the right year to retire.
 
This comes up every single year. And now that Lance has retired, the French are finding ways to expand their ridiculous (IMHO) allegations.

Armstrong has taken batteries of tests, he has done every single thing they've asked of him and the ONLY thing they even hinted at was some old urine test from years ago that hadn't even been kept in proper conditions.

Armstrong didn't use doping.

This "suspicion" crap is ruining the Tour d'France.
 
...whether he was doping or not...

That's what really upsets me. It shouldn't be a qualifiying statement. There is NO PROOF whatsoever that Lance Armstrong did anything wrong, despite the concerted and embarassing efforts of the French to try and convince people otherwise.

It's almost as though the hatred of all things American by some goes so deep that they cannot acknowledge Armstrong's dominance in the sport and have to, instead, attempt to destroy him retroactively.

Lance Armstrong's performances in the Tour d'France stand as a monument to his will, stamina, resolve, etc. I consider him the greatest living athlete today...what he did for his sport will stand as a milestone for others for a very long time.
 
VF, I understand where you're coming from. But I think its also important to seperate the French bitterness towards Lance from the fact that the entire sport is a mess and that there is strong circumstantial evidence implicating just about every elite cyclist in some kind of doping. Its my best guess that they're pretty much all doing it and getting away with it so in the end its an entirely level playing field. If that is the case I don't think it takes anything away from Lance's legacy or his achievements.

With all the masking agents and undetectable methods that scientists are devising its hard to go only on an athlete passing a test. Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Marion Jones, etc have passed every test as well but have been convicted in the court of public opinion on the same amount (and sometimes less) of circumstantial evidence.

I may be wrong, but hasn't Lance had some tests show unusual hormone or chemical levels compared to other athletes but received a pass because of his unique situation?
 
The entire sport may be a mess but I do NOT believe Lance Armstrong was a part of it. There's an excellent documentary on the Science Channel that examined Armstrong, and actually went into some of the reasons he might have been able to perform at such a high level. I suggest you watch it.

I am not going to argue hypotheticals about him. And I'm not going to say it's okay if he did because everyone else does. I guess my standards are just a little higher... OR I'm just in denial.

As far as Barry Bonds goes, I couldn't possibly care less at this point about him or any of the other steroid freaks who ruined the game of baseball. And to compare him and the evidence around him to this witch-hunt about Armstrong is totally without basis in fact.

Peace.
 
I have heard all sorts of explanations, I also have a lot of trusted friends and former coworkers from when I worked in the cycling industry that were amateur road or mtb racers. Just about every one of them insists all pros are dirty. I trust them. My favorite cyclist was a classmate in boarding school half a lifetime ago. Nice guy, went down for doping 2 years ago. Never would have believe that one either. That's the how and why I believe what I do. I've followed Lance from before his ordeal with cancer, I admire and respect him either way. That's the last thing I'll say on this. Peace to you as well.
 
You know what, as a huge Lance fan, I don't believe he was doping. I look at it this way; he won 7 Tours in a row, and is arguably the most dominant rider in the history of sport. If anybody was going to be caught doping, it would be him. He was tested at juncture, and accused with every opportunity. The fact that they haven’t been able to prove anything in all these years speaks volumes.
 
You know what, as a huge Lance fan, I don't believe he was doping. I look at it this way; he won 7 Tours in a row, and is arguably the most dominant rider in the history of sport. If anybody was going to be caught doping, it would be him. He was tested at juncture, and accused with every opportunity. The fact that they haven’t been able to prove anything in all these years speaks volumes.

The thing is, that the probability of getting caught is not as high as you'd think. So "the fact that they haven't been able to prove anything" is not as meaningful (this isn't meant to argue that Lance was doped, but more to point out the imperfect anti-doping system).

It's suspicious that so many lesser-known folks get caught, something that is seen in many sports. I don't know if there's a reason for that. Are those doping cases that unevenly distributed in reality? Are they just bigger cheaters, or just more stupid? Or are high profile athletes just better at evading doping? Or are the official authorities covering things up?

In tennis for instance, South-American players and East-European players get caught all the time. But no Western players. That is just remarkable.
 
You know what, as a huge Lance fan, I don't believe he was doping. I look at it this way; he won 7 Tours in a row, and is arguably the most dominant rider in the history of sport.
That honor hands down belongs to Eddy Merckx. Even in the last 15 years it would be hard to argue Lance's victories over Miguel Induráin's. Lance basically competed in one major competition a year.
 
That honor hands down belongs to Eddy Merckx. Even in the last 15 years it would be hard to argue Lance's victories over Miguel Induráin's. Lance basically competed in one major competition a year.

Sorry, I said sport but actually meant the tour. I agree, overall, Merckx was more dominant, having one the trifecta in his first tour (King of the Mountains, The GC, and Sprinter,), set the Hour record, and has the record for most days in Yellow. But I'd say Lance's 7 in a row is pretty amazing, especially in todays world where the competition trains so much better.

Ironically, Merckx was also accused of doping, and forced to quit the Giro for that very reason. (I don't think he was doping either.)
 
Didn't Merckx actually admit to having used amphetamines after a positive test?

Lance's 7 in a row is amazing and for now solidifies him as the greatest Tour de France rider ever. And to his credit if you're only going to win one major race that's the one to win (especially as an American where its the only race most people have ever heard of).
 
Didn't Merckx actually admit to having used amphetamines after a positive test?

Well, after the famous test that got him kicked out of the Giro, he began crying in front of the cameras and accused the authorities of rigging the test. But later on he might have recanted and admitted to it, I'm not really sure.

Lance's 7 in a row is amazing and for now solidifies him as the greatest Tour de France rider ever. And to his credit if you're only going to win one major race that's the one to win (especially as an American where its the only race most people have ever heard of).

It's funny, because I'll admit that the whole Lance Armstrong era is what turned me on to bycicle racing, but I've always been a fan of riding for liesure/health, and have several times ridden the organized metric centuries in the Sacramento area. (Wildflower, Party Pardee, and the Sierra Century.)

I get a little upset with the would/coulda/shoulda guys out there. Greg Lemond in particular. I feel bad for the fact that he had his accident, but I think he's wrong to come out and publically accuse Lance of doping. In fact, the year he lost the tour after his last victory, he basically said that everybody but him was doping, and that's why he lost...
 
Greg Lemond went completely nuts after retiring. Its sad really because I used to love the guy and now he's a certified loon.
 
The French just hate Lance and they've been behind almost all of the allegations against Lance. Supposedly he's the most tested athelete in history. I'd say after all the testing he's been thru, with no proof he's ever used a perfomance enhancing drug, its way past time to let it go and acknowledge him for the superb athelete and great Tour de France champion he is. It is made all the more remarkable by the fact that he should be dead from cancer.

On the other hand, a lot of doctors have examined Lance in great detail. There are differences between him and the average person, even the average cyclist, that do give him an edge. If I can find that article, its fascinating. The inference, tho, is just that he is something of a freak of nature and not a result of drugs.

By the way, even tho many live in Spain, Lance said several weeks ago that Team Discovery was a clean team. Not one of Team Discovery's riders turned up on the list of the Spanish doctor.
 
Actually I found part of it at Wikipedia which has a link to more info:

<H3>Rare athletic physical attributes
All top cyclists have excellent key physical attributes. Armstrong is no exception, although in one way, he may be unusually good even for an elite athlete. He is near the top but not at the top aerobically, having a VO2 Max of 83.8 mL/kg/min — much higher than the average person (40-50) but not as high as that of some other elite cyclists, such as Miguel Indurain (88.0, although reports exist that Indurain tested at 92-94) or Greg LeMond (92.5). His heart is 30 percent larger than average, but an enlarged heart is common for athletes as well. He has a resting heart rate of 32-34 bpm with a max heart rate at 201 bpm. Armstrong's most unusual attribute may be his low lactate levels: even with intense training, while the levels of most other racers range from 12 μL/Kg to as much as 20 μL/Kg, Armstrong doesn't go above a 6 μL/Kg. The result is that less lactic acid accumulates in Armstrong's system, so he likely feels less physical fatigue from severe efforts and/or he is able to sustain the same effort as other elite racers with less fatigue and faster recovery times. Some theorize that his high pedaling cadence is designed to take advantage of this, while others — like Jan Ullrich — rely on their anaerobic capacity more, pushing a larger gear at a lower rate. Further improvements in Armstrong's physical attributes and performance have been attributed to training induced increases in his muscular efficiency indicating changes in muscle mysosin type [4].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong

Actually the site has a discussion of the combination of factors that contributed to Lance's success. I'll tell you one thing, his determination and will are incredible. During racing, sometimes you'd see a look in his eye that was scary. You knew he had just decided he was NOT going to let anybody get away from him.

By the way, some of the links in that article lead to other interesting articles. It is hard to believe that a person that has been microscopically studied by physicians and researchers for years could get away with doping. And since "doping" could have affected his survival, its hard to believe he would have lied to his doctor. Also, interesting is that if his cancer doctor did know he used drugs, he likely would have kept quiet under the patient confidentiality requirement or been sued. He gave a sworn affidavit, he did not have to give, to say Lance never confessed to any drug use to him.
 
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Yep, gonna run in the NYC Marathon. :D And what he has done for cancer patients and their families makes him a great "Champion" in my book. :D
 
Soccer and tennis players use doping as well?

For what it's worth. Here's the (crappy, as usual) babelfish translation of http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/tenis/es/desarrollo/667922.html.


IT SAYS THAT ALSO IT WORKED WITH SOCCER PLAYERS, TENNIS PLAYERS And ATHLETES
Eufemiano Sources keeps awake that not only it treated cyclists

Mark.
Eufemiano Sources broke Tuesday its silence in the microphones of ` the Largueró of the Chain To be. The medico, investigated in the Puertó operation to direct a presumed network of dopaje generalized in Spain, forestalled information that is filtering on the names of the implied ones and assured that their practices not only went destined to the cyclists: "I am in favor very indignant of that subject. Nor they are all those that are nor are all those that is. It has left names people there that nor I know and other that has not left and I do not know why, but my professional secret prevents me to reveal them. I have been pioneering in many things and I do not know if I must be it at the time of disassembling the plots of hypocrites who there are has in this world. Treatments only for cyclists? That also has to me indignant. Also I have worked in other sports, like athletics, tennis or soccer. They lack many names, has been a selective filtration. I do not know why. I have worked with football teams of Spanish Liga, of First and of Second, that have improved the yield. If I have not made those treatments yes I have recommended them ".

Eufemiano defended its practices assuring that nothing had to do with the dopaje because "they are biological treatments to help in the recovery of the sportsman. The blood cannot be manipulated. One removes because there are health problems or because there was a problem with the regulation. It was collected, but or perhaps it is given never or perhaps yes because the life of the sportsman is in danger. My objective is to take care of my patients ".

It explained his halting
Eufemiano recognized that it suspected that they were following his work and detailed how it happened the halting: "It suspected that they were following to me. It called by telephone and there was rare noises. It already imagined to me that it was controlled. That yes, I want to emphasize that the treatment received by the Police and in the jail was excellent, I want to thank for it because I felt that they knew that we were not delinquent, who we were not criminal. They did not handcuff to me. The treatment was very comprehensive, very affectionate. Nor within the jail they treated like a a delinquent ".

It passs by the jail has mined him the moral
In the personnel, the medico recognized that its pass by the jail has mined its moral and has damaged irreparably its reputation: "you feel bad, mainly if you know that you have not committed nor a crime. I know that my credibility has been so damaged that it will be difficult that returns to exert in sport medicine, but I have another type of projects in my life ".
 
The French just hate Lance and they've been behind almost all of the allegations against Lance. Supposedly he's the most tested athelete in history. I'd say after all the testing he's been thru, with no proof he's ever used a perfomance enhancing drug, its way past time to let it go and acknowledge him for the superb athelete and great Tour de France champion he is. It is made all the more remarkable by the fact that he should be dead from cancer.

I completely agree with this assessment. The guy has done amazing things and overcome many obsticles and is still given a hard time by those looking to make his feats illigitimate. Lance is a great guy and deserves all the success he has had. His determination is inspiring and I hope he will go down as one of the best athletes ever.
 
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