Kobe Bryant in basketball purgatory?

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Geoff

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I used to rag on Kobe, and I still don't like him that much...but after reading this article, I have to reconsider how I judge him as a ball player.
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By Scoop Jackson
Page 2

The e-mails came the day after.
e-mail 1:
I'm so sick of hearing people say that Kobe quit. You aren't a quitter if you have 23 points before the half. If other Lakers had scored like they are paid to do the Lakers might have won Game 5!!!!! (There shouldn't have even been a Game 7 if tired Smush and brick-hands Kwame had showed up to the playoffs.) So don't talk to me about Kobe quitting. You type of sports fans (who are KOBE haters) don't know what you want. You complain when Kobe shoots a lot (according to your stats), but when he doesn't shoot a lot (and the Lakers lose) you complain. What do you want???
-peace.

e-mail 2:
My rule is unless I gave birth to the player, am married to the player, or am the baby mama for the player, I don't get my blood pressure up anymore because I'm older now and I might stroke myself out. Ha ha Seriously, you know how I feel about young Kobe so I won't rehash it with you. I will say that my brother (name withheld) believes that the Lakers will be getting Garnett over the summer and he promises me that the Lakers will be the Lakers of old by the fall. I am willing to wait and see -- and even take back some (not all) of the harsh things I have said about Kobe. But I'm telling you right now that if they continue to lose w/ fabulous Kevin in the lineup and the light is shining on Kobe's head like he's the problem I'm going tell you "I told you so" very loudly and in standard, non-ebonic English.
-no peace.

Wednesday night Kobe Bryant addressed the issue at hand -- the issue of his Game 7 performance against the Suns, and the issue between him and Charles Barkley that had developed over the last week. Barkley called Bryant "selfish" on national television after the Lakers lost huge in a Game 7, a game in which Kobe took only three shots and scored one point in the second half.
jordan_kobe_195.jpg

Mitchell Layton/NBAE/Getty Images
Kobe's legacy is forever tied to Jordan ... and how can Kobe win in that scenario?

It might have been the most confusing performance of his career. It was also the moment when it became overtly evident that no matter what he does for the rest of his career, Kobe Bryant can't win.
"The important part is that we play the game and play the game to win … to label me as selfish is something that I took up with Charles … it's one thing to criticize an individual's game but it's another thing to … "
On the TNT set Kobe spoke his peace. Said what he felt needed to be said, explained the issue and not necessarily why he did what he did, but where his mind was and why he didn't do what he'd normally do. Or more directly, what we all know someone else would have done if he'd been in the same situation.
Bryant said, "we stuck to the script … " and "it depends on who we're playing … " and "to demoralize them you have to stop them … " when answering questions about his performance. About Barkley, he then said, "I'm not going to jump over the table and lump him in the head."
As the words left his mouth he seemed comfortable in his belief, comfortable in why he went out like he did and "allowed" Game 7 to end the way it did. And regardless of what he said, there seemed to be something left unsaid. Something deeper than a strategy and plan that he and the Lakers wanted to execute.
And the problem is: Even if he did go deeper and tell all of us what we wanted to hear, half of us would still hate him and not believe him while the other half would hold on to his every word as gospel.
He can't win.

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Full NBA Playoffs coverage And probably never will.The reason he won't is because of the ghost that has followed him ever since he entered the NBA. The ghost of Jordan. Outside of never winning with the fans, teammates, Madison Avenue or the media, Kobe Bryant's mythical but amazingly eerie connection to Michael Jordan is the single reason why this paradox of life follows him the way that it does.
Kenny Smith even alluded to it when KB was on the set. "The barbershop question" is what he called it, to which Kobe responded, "I handle the ball more [than Jordan] … the only similarities I see are our competitiveness … we're different, we're just different."
But no one sees that but him. Just as no one sees his three-shot second half to end his unbelievable 2005-06 season as something that is a part of his basketball character.
And the Jordan "thing" is why we think that. Essentially, the rationale everyone used after Kobe's Game 7 performance -- making the judgments much more severe than they should have been -- is the mental attachment that, "Well, Jordan wouldn't have gone out like that."
And anyone who says they haven't said that out loud or to themselves since May 7 is lying.

Theories give reason. If this is true, here's two to grow on.
Theory 23/45/23: Had Michael Jordan never existed, Kobe Bryant probably would be the most celebrated basketball player in the world.
Why? Because we would have never seen anyone do what he does on the basketball court; we'd be amazed … the same way we were when He blessed us in 1984. But the problem is, he did bless us and he did exist. Which is good for us, but over the years has made Kobe Bryant's life a living hell.
Theory 8/24: Had Kobe Bryant come into the league in 2002 with Amare or 2003 with LeBron, D-Wade, C-Bosh and Melo, or in 2004 with Dwight, or any year after Michael Jordan left the NBA, the comparisons would not haunt him the way they do.
And without haunting him, we -- the fans and the media -- would not draw the immediate comparisons forever between the intimacy of MJ's exit and KB's entrance. Had LeBron James come into the NBA in 1990, while Magic was still playing, and LB played against Magic, his life would be haunted the same way Kobe's is.
But LeBron didn't; he lucked out. So all we do is make general analogies, suggested resemblances. It's the difference between "LeBron James is the next Magic," as opposed to "Kobe Bryant is trying to be like Jordan."
There's an extremely big dissimilarity in the two statements. One that probably only Kobe recognizes because he's the one that has to live and live with it.
But the fact that Kobe came into the L on the heels of Jordan's second exodus -- and being so Jordanesque at the time -- human nature alone makes us connect him to Jordan like Bapes to Air Force Ones, Ask.com to Google, Chris Brown to Usher, Dime to Slam.
jordan_dunk_195.jpg

Nathaniel S. Butler/NBAE via Getty Images
How quickly we forget: During Jordan's highest-scoring year, the Bulls finished under .500.

And this season might have been the worst for Kobe. By averaging 35.4 ppg, it took everyone back to 1986-87, when Jordan went ballistic, averaging over 37 a clip.
It's funny when they reminisce over you inside of a paradox like this, because no one mentioned how that season the Bulls played under-.500 basketball (40-42, fifth in their division, 17 games out of first place) and how they got swept in the first round by Boston, yet Kobe got the Lakers to play over-.500 ball (45-37, third in their division, nine games from first) and push the Suns to a "win or go home" game in the first round … and he gets dogged. Or how Michael came in second in MVP voting that year to Magic, yet Kobe came in fourth this year, fifth in the general managers voting poll.
Yet, they basically had the exact same statistical season.
MJ, '86-87: 37.1 ppg/5.2 rpg/4.6 apg
KB, '05-06: 35.4 ppg/5.3 rpg/4.5 apg
Yet, Kobe's season is being held against him.
Which leaves the question open: Is the MJ lineage Kobe inherited unfair?
The answer is yes.
It's yes because without Jordan, direct analogies would not be made about everything he does on the basketball court; it's yes because we would not have a barometer to judge his every success and failure; it's yes because we wouldn't automatically say things like, "Damn he sounds just like MJ when he talks and damn he walks like MJ when he walks" to "his shoes don't sell like MJ's and he didn't sign with Brand Jordan because he wanted to be Nike's Jordan" to "the only reason he cut his Afro was to be more like MJ and the reason he's switching his number to 24 is because it's one number higher than MJ's."
He can never run from it.
His career is Jordan's in reverse. Win early, struggle late. But Jordan never had to go through this. Never had to deal with this type of scrutiny, never had to deal with this type of hate, never had to come on national television to discuss why he did what he did in the second half of a ball game that was lost at halftime.
In a season that was lost the minute the ref tossed up the ball in the very first game.

Overlooked in all of this new Kobegate is a point Kenny Smith made during and after the infamous Game 7. He talked about Kobe being in a place no other basketball player exists. A damned if he does, damned if he doesn't place. Hoops purgatory. A place where he can't win.
Which is funny, because the first comment out of Kobe's mouth the other night was, "We play the game to win."
Unfortunately for Kobe, you can only play basketball to win.
The game that is his life has slowly become a no-win situation.
Scoop Jackson is a national columnist for Page 2 and a contributor to ESPN The Magazine. He has a weekly segment on "Cold Pizza" and is a regular forum guest on "Rome Is Burning." He resides in Chicago. You can e-mail Scoop here. Sound off to Page 2 here.
 
See, it goes like this...

Basketball player that the media is most harsh towards: Kobe

Basketball player that the media sucks up to the most: Jordan

Jordan had it easy compared to Kobe. Everyone wanted to see Jordan suceed, break records, dominate and win championships. Kobe on the other hand is the complete opposite. In general, people wanna see him fall on his a** and fail everything he tries to accomplish on the hardwood. Kobe misses the playoffs, we laugh at him and point fingers while calling him everything from selfish to "not-a-leader" with every other negative thing that can be said about a baller in between. Yet we are quick to forget that our beloved MJ played on his fair share of bad teams in the 80's. Or if he came up short in a certain aspect of the game, we pull out the excuse book wether they are legit or not. The media sucked up to Jordan that it became ridiculously annoying. It was almost taboo to talk about the great Michael Jordan in a negative way. While Kobe on the other hand, if he takes too many shots we call him selfish and if he doesn't take enough we say that he's not a true leader or he can't carry no team by himself.

It's not easy being Kobe Bryant. No Basketball has ever had as much pressure to suceed as him.
Which is an area where Jordan, at any time during his career, has never been in Kobe's league.
 
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chaps said:
See, it goes like this...

Basketball player that the media is most harsh towards: Kobe

Basketball player that the media sucks up to the most: Jordan

Jordan had it easy compared to Kobe. Everyone wanted to see Jordan suceed, break records, dominate and win championships. Kobe on the other hand is the complete opposite. In general, people wanna see him fall on his a** and fail everything he tries to accomplish on the hardwood. Kobe misses the playoffs, we laugh at him and point fingers while calling him everything from selfish to "not-a-leader" with every other negative thing that can be said about a baller in between. Yet we are quick to forget that our beloved MJ played on his fair share of bad teams in the 80's. Or if he came up short in a certain thing, we pull out the excuse book weither they are legit or not. The media sucked up to Jordan that it became ridiculously annoying. It was almost taboo to talk about the great Michael Jordan in a negative way. While Kobe on the other hand, if he takes too many shots we call him selfish and if he doesn't take enough we say that he's not a true leader or he can't carry no team by himself.

It's not easy being Kobe Bryant. No Basketball has ever had as much pressure to suceed as him.
Which is an area where Jordan, at any time during his career, has never been in Kobe's league.

Wow, as much as I hate the Lakers, I have to agree.

Additionally, MJ never had anybody to contend with that was even remotely on the same level as him. Kobe has LBJ, Wade and others that can challenge him for the "best player in the league" title. I don't think MJ's ride was as smooth as you portray, but Kobe really doesn't get any leeway at all.
 
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KingKong said:
Wow, as much as I hate the Lakers, I have to agree.

LOL. Trust me, i'm far from being anything remotely close from a Lakers fan either. Doesn't stop me from thinking that way though.

And BTW, yes I do think even LeBron has it easier than Kobe.
 
KingKong said:
I don't think MJ's ride was as smooth as you portray, but Kobe really doesn't get any leeway at all.

Agreed. Jordan did have some pressure but it wasn't nearly as much as Kobe has right now. And yes, all of that is mostly because Jordan himself set the bar so damn high for guys like Kobe.

Kobe has Michael to try and surpass.
Michael didn't have anyone close to what he eventually accomplished to try and surpass.

Which is mostly why I believe what I wrote in my original post in this thread.
 
You guys are right.....it must suck to be Kobe and collect millions to play a game.

These people are so far removed from the real world it's pathetic. If I cheat on my wife I really can't afford to buy her a 4 million $$ ring to make it all better. I'm probably living on a buddies couch for the next year.
 
Ryle said:
You guys are right.....it must suck to be Kobe and collect millions to play a game.

These people are so far removed from the real world it's pathetic. If I cheat on my wife I really can't afford to buy her a 4 million $$ ring to make it all better. I'm probably living on a buddies couch for the next year.

what? you're comparing apples and oranges. We're saying that Kobe has more pressure to suceed than MJ or about anyone in Basketball. You're talking about how much money he's making.

You have your problems, I have my problems and Kobe has his problems. It's not because he makes a really high salary that he can be excused
 
I think one reason for the difference between how Kobe and Jordan are viewed is based on their personalities and off-court actions.

Jordan's "drive" was well received by the public in general compared to Kobe. I think Kobe just rubs a lot of people the wrong way and he comes off as an ego-driven individual instead of one more concerned with winning than anything else.
 
I think it's less about _when_ Kobe came in the league (in relation to when MJ left), than it is about _how_ Kobe came into the league.

Kobe certainly had early successes. But he was part of a team with a lot of talent and the most dominant player of the post-MJ era in Shaq. Obviously the championships won during that era are impressive, but you can't really compare them with MJ's as Kobe was not the "man" on any of those teams. Extremely key component? Sure, but nothing like how MJ was the undisputed leader of the Bulls.

MJ's journey involved early struggles leading to success.

Kobe's involved some early failures (but in a different role than MJ played) followed by successes in which he wasn't the guy asked to make everyone around him better.

I see him now somewhat in the position MJ was early on. Kobe has the advantage in that he's got experiences and wins under his belt already, but has got to figure out the leadership thing and experience the failure thing as well.

Compare to Lebron who joined a team in the dumps and quickly became "the man" there and has apparently turned them around and made them contenders. Kobe never had this opportunity and thus his imaged was defined differently.
 
Ryle said:
You guys are right.....it must suck to be Kobe and collect millions to play a game.

These people are so far removed from the real world it's pathetic. If I cheat on my wife I really can't afford to buy her a 4 million $$ ring to make it all better. I'm probably living on a buddies couch for the next year.

Good points.

Kobe is playing the "victim" card to a tee. I, for one, am not buying it. THREE SHOTS in a whole 24 minutes of basketball? There's no excusing that when your name is KOBE BRYANT. He wanted more than anything in the world to be the man. Dr. Buss gave him the opportunity to do so. And what do they have to show for it?

Kobe made his bed. Now he's gonna have to sleep in it.
 
Warhawk said:
Jordan's "drive" was well received by the public in general compared to Kobe. I think Kobe just rubs a lot of people the wrong way and he comes off as an ego-driven individual instead of one more concerned with winning than anything else.

Not terribly surprising, really.

I think our society has, in general, changed to one that would rather knock our heros down than see them succeed. We demand "realness" almost to a fault. The tragic, tortured souls are far more revered nowadays than those who's success comes with more hard work than controversy.

Being good at something is often seen as arrogance -- perhaps why there's a faction of people who view LeBron James' talent through a heavy layer of "who does he think he is?" -- and we must immediatley find some way to knock them off their high horses. Putting one's nose to the grindstone and working hard at your job is now equal to selling out. Whereas, those few who boastfully stumble and bumble and luck their way into a tremendous amount of success and wealth are honored and admired for their ability to buck the system.

There was a time I liked Kobe Bryant. When he first entered the league, I was quite impressed with how confident and well spoken he was. That's changed, somewhat, for obvious reasons. Can't deny the talent, though. He's an amazing player.
 
chaps said:
See, it goes like this...

Basketball player that the media is most harsh towards: Kobe

Basketball player that the media sucks up to the most: Jordan

Jordan had it easy compared to Kobe. Everyone wanted to see Jordan suceed, break records, dominate and win championships. Kobe on the other hand is the complete opposite. In general, people wanna see him fall on his a** and fail everything he tries to accomplish on the hardwood. Kobe misses the playoffs, we laugh at him and point fingers while calling him everything from selfish to "not-a-leader" with every other negative thing that can be said about a baller in between. Yet we are quick to forget that our beloved MJ played on his fair share of bad teams in the 80's. Or if he came up short in a certain aspect of the game, we pull out the excuse book wether they are legit or not. The media sucked up to Jordan that it became ridiculously annoying. It was almost taboo to talk about the great Michael Jordan in a negative way. While Kobe on the other hand, if he takes too many shots we call him selfish and if he doesn't take enough we say that he's not a true leader or he can't carry no team by himself.

It's not easy being Kobe Bryant. No Basketball has ever had as much pressure to suceed as him.
Which is an area where Jordan, at any time during his career, has never been in Kobe's league.
agreed
 
VF21 said:
Good points.

Kobe is playing the "victim" card to a tee. I, for one, am not buying it. THREE SHOTS in a whole 24 minutes of basketball? There's no excusing that when your name is KOBE BRYANT. He wanted more than anything in the world to be the man. Dr. Buss gave him the opportunity to do so. And what do they have to show for it?

Kobe doesn't have the conscious decision to play victim (at least w/ the media). That's the role he's in regardless. I mentioned around the time of MVP balloting that he wouldn't win because the media is voting. Someone disagreed w/ me, but it later comes out that he makes 1st team defense and 1st team NBA w/ more 1st place votes than Nash. When you calculate his MVP tallies, many media members left him off the ballot or gave him 4th/5th place votes. It's not so much that he didn't win MVP, but how does a player who makes both 1st teams get so many low-ranking MVP votes? There is something that divides the league voters' rationale from the media voters' rationale, it's not a figment of imagination.

As far as Gm7, VF, the Lakers are not going to beat Phx in that conventional "Kobes scores 50" way. He scored 50 on them twice and they lost both. I can understand the logic behind thinking he was sending a message, but the only way that the Lakers can beat THAT particular team was by getting inside scores. If that were any other Western team, I think he takes many more shots than 3. It's not like it mattered how many shots he took anyway, most of the people who pointed out the 3 shots admitted that. There was some kind of happy figure in peoples' minds about how many shots Kobe should've taken. That's some serious parsing over one player's game in a 30 pt blowout.

Re: "the man" arguement. We all know the Lakers aren't going to do anything w/o roster improvements and so does he and so does Buss. They're in a rebuilding phase. They're not going to have anything to show for that trade until 2008 when Brian Grant comes off the books (among others). Knowing that right from the get-go and then holding their struggles against Kobe after the fact isn't fair until he's got enough support to make those high expectations realistic.
 
We will never view Kobe Bryant the same way, I'm afraid. You've made very good points, Gargamel, and I respect you.

Having said that, I still firmly believe Kobe has brought a lot of this upon himself.

Is he one of the very best to play the game? Without a doubt. Has he actually created a situation where he isn't going to be singled out for recognition because he has alienated so many of the people who cast the votes? Again, without a doubt.

I suspect history will be a lot kinder to Kobe Bean Bryant.
 
VF21 said:
We will never view Kobe Bryant the same way, I'm afraid. You've made very good points, Gargamel, and I respect you.

Having said that, I still firmly believe Kobe has brought a lot of this upon himself.

Is he one of the very best to play the game? Without a doubt. Has he actually created a situation where he isn't going to be singled out for recognition because he has alienated so many of the people who cast the votes? Again, without a doubt.

I suspect history will be a lot kinder to Kobe Bean Bryant.

He's cooled a lot of media voters over the years, but a lot of them have been on his *** since 96. That door swings both ways. It all started when his dad got the Nets to pass on him in the draft. I've read I don't know how many articles since then on that story, yet it's never mentioned that Francis flat refused to play for Vancouver only a few years later, nor that Shaq declared that he wouldn't play for Minnesota if they wound up with the 1st pick in 92.

I think Stern should reconsider having the media select MVPs when dislike for a certain player can cause a pattern of voting that isn't reflective of reality. I don't care if it's Kobe Bryant or Kobe Hitler -- 35/5/5 should not get that many 4th/5th place votes (much less no votes). We could go back to 2003 as well when he avg'd 30/7/6 and got similar treatment.

(for the record, this isn't about Nash winning -- at least the voters were consistent w/ how they voted last year)
 
1) Kobe appeared to quit in that second half. Showed up his own team. Nor is it the first time. The "I only compete when I feel like it" has long plagued Kobe -- when was there EVER a question of a Magic, Bird, MJ or whoever the comparison is going to be, competing? There is as much Pippen there as Jordan sometimes.

2) Jordan shot .482 in the season he scored 37, then came back the next year and shot .535 while averaging 35. Helped eliminate the conception that he was gunning selfishly. He was also only 23 and just getting started. It was a shocking performance.

3) Michael's team that year may well have been WORSE than the Lakers of this year, featuring a young Charles Oakley and then a whole bunch of total garbage. Certainly there was nothing remotely approaching a second gun or ballhandler. Dave Corzine was the center. Gene Banks and Brad Sellers the small forwards. John Paxson the PG.

4) But here's the thing -- I lived through those years and MJ ABSOLUTELY caught all sorts of **** about "only being a scorer" "not making his teammates better" and "not being a winner". ALL of those tags were laid on him in spades as Magic/Bird were held up as the paragons of unselfish winning bball. It wasn't until Michael finally broke through and won that first title that he became beloved/worshipped legend.

5) Kobe didn't win, and therefore had ZERO chance at being MVP. That's the unspoken rule. And of course he may not even have had the most impressive individual performance of the year (LeBron), so was going to get fewer votes for being head and shoulders above the competion.

6) Finally the role reversal --winning early and not late -- maes Kobe into a walking talking disappointement. Combined wiht the perception that he chased off most of the talent that he DID win with, he's in an Iverson sink of respect. He won...when he had Shaq. Shaq is gone, and he wins far less. No matter how amazing the individual numbers are, every season loooks bland and disappointing after you once won three titles in a row.
 
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Bricklayer said:
1) Kobe appeared to quit in that second half. Showed up his own team. Nor is it the first time. The "I only compete when I feel like it" has long plagued Kobe -- when was there EVER a question of a Magic, Bird, MJ or whoever the comparison is going to be, competing? There is as much Pippen there as Jordan sometimes.

2) Jordan shot .482 in the season he scored 37, then came back the next year and shot .535 while averaging 35. Helped eliminate the conception that he was gunning selfishly. He was also only 23 and just getting started. It was a shocking performance.

3) Michael's team that year may well have been WORSE than the Lakers of this year, featuring a young Charles Oakley and then a whole bunch of total garbage. Certainly there was nothing remotely approaching a second gun or ballhandler. Dave Corzine was the center. Gene Banks and Brad Sellers the small forwards. John Paxson the PG.

4) But here's the thing -- I lived through those years and MJ ABSOLUTELY caught all sorts of **** about "only being a scorer" "not making his teammates better" and "not being a winner". ALL of those tags were laid on him in spades as Magic/Bird were held up as the paragons of unselfish winning bball. It wasn't until Michael finally broke through and won that first title that he became beloved/worshipped legend.

5) Kobe didn't win, and therefore had ZERO chance at being MVP. That's the unspoken rule. And of course he may not even have had the most impressive individual performance of the year (LeBron), so was going to get fewer votes for being head and shoulders above the competion.

6) Finally the role reversal --winning early and not late -- maes Kobe into a walking talking disappointement. Combined wiht the perception that he chased off most of the talent that he DID win with, he's in an Iverson sink of respect. He won...when he had Shaq. Shaq is gone, and he wins far less. No matter how amazing the individual numbers are, every season loooks bland and disappointing after you once won three titles in a row.

Great post Brick! Nobody could have said it better.
 
Bricklayer said:
5) Kobe didn't win, and therefore had ZERO chance at being MVP. That's the unspoken rule. And of course he may not even have had the most impressive individual performance of the year (LeBron), so was going to get fewer votes for being head and shoulders above the competion.

I'm not talking about whether Kobe actually won or not. That's not the point. I'm talking about: a) left off ballots, b) 5th place votes, c) 4th place votes. That's plain disrespect, especially when the guy later lands on the 1st team NBA and 1st team defense rosters. There can't be that divergent of an impression on a player between the media voters and leaguewide voters who assembled the 1st team rosters. Media bias is what caused that voting pattern for MVP, same thing happened to him in 2003, where he was on a 50 win team.
 
Ryle said:
You guys are right.....it must suck to be Kobe and collect millions to play a game.

These people are so far removed from the real world it's pathetic. If I cheat on my wife I really can't afford to buy her a 4 million $$ ring to make it all better. I'm probably living on a buddies couch for the next year.

I don't think that matters at all.

People like Kobe Bryant and Barry Bonds and countless others are living proof that having a lot of money doesn't make your life any easier in and of itself.

You say that they are removed from the real world, but the fact of the matter is that their world is the real world - to them. Even though they don't want for anything materially, they still need the basic things that keep us all alive: companionship, support, etc. Bill Gates recently said that he doesn't enjoy being the wealthiest man in the world. That's undoubtedly part of the reason why.

As VF21 said, Kobe has brought a lot of this on himself, but when you look at the hate that is heaped on him - and has been since he first came into the League, even before the Shaq feuds and the rape allegations - it is comparable to the treatment that Barry Bonds gets from the media. And I can't imagine that he has deserved to be one of the most hated players in professional sports over the past decade.
 
Superman said:
I don't think that matters at all.

People like Kobe Bryant and Barry Bonds and countless others are living proof that having a lot of money doesn't make your life any easier in and of itself.
What about Kobe Bryant's life is so hard?
 
Gargamel said:
I'm not talking about whether Kobe actually won or not. That's not the point. I'm talking about: a) left off ballots, b) 5th place votes, c) 4th place votes. That's plain disrespect, especially when the guy later lands on the 1st team NBA and 1st team defense rosters. There can't be that divergent of an impression on a player between the media voters and leaguewide voters who assembled the 1st team rosters. Media bias is what caused that voting pattern for MVP, same thing happened to him in 2003, where he was on a 50 win team.


Er...not really.

First Team All NBA and MVP voting have always been on two different scales.

The MVP voting has always included a healthy dose of "making his team win big", looking for the best player having the best season on an elite team.

Whereas the First Team All NBA voting has always been much more generous to guys on middling (not disappointing) teams. Much more about talent than impact. Closer to a "who's the best". Hence KG made First Team All NBA year after year after year, but it wasn't until the year his team won 57 that he becomes MVP. And ditto for Kobe -- if he can lead his team to 55 wins next year, even if he only scores 31-32 or whatnot, he will do MUCH better in the MVP voting (still won't guarantee a win depending on what LeBron comes up with, but closer).
 
Bricklayer said:
4) But here's the thing -- I lived through those years and MJ ABSOLUTELY caught all sorts of **** about "only being a scorer" "not making his teammates better" and "not being a winner". ALL of those tags were laid on him in spades as Magic/Bird were held up as the paragons of unselfish winning bball. It wasn't until Michael finally broke through and won that first title that he became beloved/worshipped legend.
Wasn't this criticism primarily focused from certain media outlets (NY specifically) rather than the NBA marketing machine which was at its best around this time? I seem to remember everyone fawning over him when he was only winning dunk contests and it wasn't really until I got on the internets in college (92) and the usenet newsgroups that I became aware of the legion of Jordan haters that are out there which really seemed to intensify after his brief stint in baseball with all kinds of conspiracy theories about it being a secret gambling suspension and his gambling debts leading to the death of his father.

While I thought it was all good for a good chuckle and nothing more, I'd personally give Magic the edge over MJ for "greatest player ever" honors and also put Oscar in there for consideration along with Bill Russell who really belongs in a category all his own.

As for Kobe I think he brought everything on himself beginning with having his people announce that he would not sign with any market smaller than NY or LA on draft day right up to his hand in breaking up the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. Unless he wins with his own team he will always be in the minds of many a great player who always took advantage of the opportunities he was given without ever creating his own - and that is what ultimately separates the great from the greatest.
 
Warhawk said:
I think one reason for the difference between how Kobe and Jordan are viewed is based on their personalities and off-court actions.

Jordan's "drive" was well received by the public in general compared to Kobe. I think Kobe just rubs a lot of people the wrong way and he comes off as an ego-driven individual instead of one more concerned with winning than anything else.

What??????????:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Jordan was the most egotistic player of his time. The difference was the media was in love with him and tend not report many of faults to the public.
 
VF21 said:
Good points.

Kobe is playing the "victim" card to a tee. I, for one, am not buying it. THREE SHOTS in a whole 24 minutes of basketball? There's no excusing that when your name is KOBE BRYANT. He wanted more than anything in the world to be the man. Dr. Buss gave him the opportunity to do so. And what do they have to show for it?

Kobe made his bed. Now he's gonna have to sleep in it.

Kobe playing the "victim" card. I really do not understand where you going with this. So it is fault that have been on his back from day one. This does not make any sense. How is it his fault that the media have been comparing him to Michael from day one. He is in a no win situation. Name me one NBA superstar who has been critized as much as Kobe?
 
Gargamel said:
He's cooled a lot of media voters over the years, but a lot of them have been on his *** since 96. That door swings both ways. It all started when his dad got the Nets to pass on him in the draft. I've read I don't know how many articles since then on that story, yet it's never mentioned that Francis flat refused to play for Vancouver only a few years later, nor that Shaq declared that he wouldn't play for Minnesota if they wound up with the 1st pick in 92.

I think Stern should reconsider having the media select MVPs when dislike for a certain player can cause a pattern of voting that isn't reflective of reality. I don't care if it's Kobe Bryant or Kobe Hitler -- 35/5/5 should not get that many 4th/5th place votes (much less no votes). We could go back to 2003 as well when he avg'd 30/7/6 and got similar treatment.

(for the record, this isn't about Nash winning -- at least the voters were consistent w/ how they voted last year)

I agree completely. I will never understand the hate Kobe gets from fans and media; this was before Denver gate even.
 
Bricklayer said:
1) Kobe appeared to quit in that second half. Showed up his own team. Nor is it the first time. The "I only compete when I feel like it" has long plagued Kobe -- when was there EVER a question of a Magic, Bird, MJ or whoever the comparison is going to be, competing? There is as much Pippen there as Jordan sometimes.

2) Jordan shot .482 in the season he scored 37, then came back the next year and shot .535 while averaging 35. Helped eliminate the conception that he was gunning selfishly. He was also only 23 and just getting started. It was a shocking performance.

3) Michael's team that year may well have been WORSE than the Lakers of this year, featuring a young Charles Oakley and then a whole bunch of total garbage. Certainly there was nothing remotely approaching a second gun or ballhandler. Dave Corzine was the center. Gene Banks and Brad Sellers the small forwards. John Paxson the PG.

4) But here's the thing -- I lived through those years and MJ ABSOLUTELY caught all sorts of **** about "only being a scorer" "not making his teammates better" and "not being a winner". ALL of those tags were laid on him in spades as Magic/Bird were held up as the paragons of unselfish winning bball. It wasn't until Michael finally broke through and won that first title that he became beloved/worshipped legend.

5) Kobe didn't win, and therefore had ZERO chance at being MVP. That's the unspoken rule. And of course he may not even have had the most impressive individual performance of the year (LeBron), so was going to get fewer votes for being head and shoulders above the competion.

6) Finally the role reversal --winning early and not late -- maes Kobe into a walking talking disappointement. Combined wiht the perception that he chased off most of the talent that he DID win with, he's in an Iverson sink of respect. He won...when he had Shaq. Shaq is gone, and he wins far less. No matter how amazing the individual numbers are, every season loooks bland and disappointing after you once won three titles in a row.

1.) How do you know he quit? Do you know the inner workings of Kobe. Like what is mentioned before he is in a no win situation. Either he tries to take over the game by himself by forcing shots when doubled or pass it to a teamate that was in a better position. What would the fans and media would say then if he tried to force the action? Like what was mentioned in the article he is in a no win situation and you gave a prime example of it in your first point.

2.) How does that diminish what Kobe did this year with his team?

3.) Yes what Jordan did with his team was remarkable. Kobe came close to that this year given the team he was playing with.

4.) Yet no one mentions his gambling problems, him cheating on his wife and his very egomaniac personality(like him berating his teammates in the locker room) not what I call a team player. Yet no one mentions this. If his flaws were made as public as Kobe was he would be viewed different today, but it was not and when it was public it never was brought up time and time as is the case with Kobe.

5.) I agree MVP is always takes in account of team wins. Kobe was a long shot.

6.) I agree with pretty much everything here but the part where he chased most of teammates away. The players that did leave were traded none of them really left as a free agent except for Fisher.
 
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