Kmart... x2

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BMiller52

All-Star
#31
#31
So let me get this straight-if you are flat out terrible like Kwame you are a bust. If you just don't live up to your draft spot you get an upgrade to overrated? Well, I guess we have different opinions of what overrated is. My opinion is that he's overpaid and I'm talking about right now. You apparently think overpaid=overrated and think that just because he didn't live up to the hype of being a #1 draft pick he's overrated.

IMO to be overrated people actually have to rate you high now.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#32
#32
BMiller52 said:
So let me get this straight-if you are flat out terrible like Kwame you are a bust. If you just don't live up to your draft spot you get an upgrade to overrated?
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That's exactly right.

Martin is overrated because he's overpaid AND because he didn't live up to his draft status. If Martin wasn't overrated, he wouldn't have gotten a ninety million dollar contract in the first place.

And, you've got the concepts backwards: He had to prove that he was undeserving of that kind of money (which he did) before it could safely be said that he's overrated. In fact, he's overrated *because* he proved that he didn't deserve that contract.

He isn't overrated because he's overpaid, he's overpaid because he is overrated.
 
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Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#34
#34
BMiller52 said:
More like he's overpaid because he WAS overrated.
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No. you've still got the concepts backwards...

Martin is only in the second year of that contract; it took him this long to prove that he didn't deserve it. Which makes him overrated in the here and now.
 
B

BMiller52

All-Star
#37
#37
Well see that's where we disagree. I think overpaid and overrated is different while you think it's the same. Nothing's gonna change my opinion and you're not going to change yours.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#38
#38
Why would I change my opinion? You still haven't substantiated *your* opinion... you haven't even clearly *defined* your opinion; what's your statute of limitations on when a player is no longer held up to the standard of his draft status, and who says so?

In professional sports, the only universal standard of relative "value" or "worth" is the players' salaries: is X paid what he's worth? If he's paid less, he's underrated. If he's paid more, he's overrated. How do you know if he's paid what he's worth? You wait a few years, and see if his performance on the court matches up with what he's being paid. You can't say that he's overrated at the time that he signs his contract, because that can't be determined until he actually starts to play under that contract.

Well, in Martin's case, we've waited, and we've seen. And the verdict is in.
 
B

BMiller52

All-Star
#39
#39
Well with that logic Shawn Marion isn't underrated but everybody loves to say "Shawn Marion is underrated." To me underrated/overrated is what a guy does on the court not how much money he makes. To me, a guy is basically underrated if he does a lot of stuff for his team that doesn't get noticed and he's not as appreciated as much as he should be.

Kenyon does a lot of good things for his team that people don't look at, they just say he's overrated because he's not as good as they thought he was a couple years ago and he has a fat contract.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#41
#41
BMiller52 said:
Well with that logic Shawn Marion isn't underrated but everybody loves to say "Shawn Marion is underrated." To me underrated/overrated is what a guy does on the court not how much money he makes...
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But that's incomplete reasoning; what a player does on the court has to be compared to *something* in order to gague what he should be rated, or else *nobody* is either overrated or underrated. And, like I said, the only universal standard in professional sports is money.

And, actually, Shawn Marion is the 25th-highest paid player in the NBA, and puts up better overall numbers than nineteen of the twenty-five players ahead of him; so you could *still* make the argument that he's underrated, as I sincerely doubt that you could find nineteen players making *less* than him that put up better numbers.


BMiller52 said:
To me, a guy is basically underrated if he does a lot of stuff for his team that doesn't get noticed and he's not as appreciated as much as he should be.
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And how is appreciation shown? With money.

"Money is the sincerest form of flattery. Women love to be flattered. So do men." - Robert Heinlein

BMiller52 said:
... Kenyon does a lot of good things for his team that people don't look at...
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Like what? He's a mediocre scorer, a mediocre rebounder, he doesn't pass the ball, he doesn't get steals, and he doesn't block shots. The only thing that he does as good as or better than anybody else on his team is commit fouls.
 
B

BMiller52

All-Star
#42
#42
Well the appreciation I'm talking about is the kind you get in the media. The kind where sports writers and fans talk about you. That kind of appreciation. You use money to determine whether someone's overrated/underrated, I see that.

Kenyon does lots of stuff on the court. He's a good one on one defender. When healthy he's a pretty good shotblocker. He runs the floor so you can get easy hoops. He has a mid range J now. He boxes out. He passes the ball, but Miller/Mello/Boykins have the ball 90% of the time anyway. Look at Brad's assists before he came to Sacramento and after. Looking at APG isn't always the best way to determine whether a player passes the ball well or not. He's played in the princeton before, he has a high bball IQ. He shoots a high percentage.

Also by your logic Brad Miller is overrated pretty badly.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#43
#43
BMiller52 said:
Well the appreciation I'm talking about is the kind you get in the media. The kind where sports writers and fans talk about you. That kind of appreciation.
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Lip service; that's all that is. What's that worth to a professional athlete? A news article kissing Kenyon Martin's *** isn't worth the paper it's printed on... What could you possibly say to a professional athlete that means anything to him? What could you possibly say that he hasn't heard his entire life, by family and hangers-on? What form of appreciation could you show him that even registers on the scale, other than cash?

You and I have diametrically opposed assessments of Martin's skill, and what he provides a team, and I'm not in the mood to discuss that at this particular point in time, but this:

BMiller52 said:
Also by your logic Brad Miller is overrated pretty badly.
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You'll get no argument from me on *that* point...
 
Sac.Kings

Sac.Kings

All-Star
#45
#45
Kenyon Martin is overrated, Period! He occasionaly has a good game, but occasionaly for a guy with 7 year 90$million contract is unacceptable. They should trade him to the Knicks, they are the only ones stupid enough to trade for him.
 
O

ovrush

Bench
#46
#46
I'd be inclined to say no because of his contract and injury issues but not necessarily because of the attitude. It's an interesting idea though for a few reasons.

1. The Kings have a LONG history of turning around guys like these - long on talent, long on baggage sort of guys - under Adelman. Now if Adelman isn't coming back I don't know if this trend continues. The fact is though although he's overpaid he's also in a situation where the Nuggets will be almost giving him away and I'm a big fan of buying low and selling high.

2. The fact that his value is so low for the Nuggets at the moment perhaps means you could get more from the Nuggets, ie Nene. Could Brad Miller and Kenny Thomas land these two? at this point i think so although Im not sure if the Kings would make the trade.

3. Upside - is it a huge gamble? YES! but the guy is the type of player we sorely lack in the frontcourt and fits our emerging character perfectly IF he's healthy. He's a hardnosed, nasty defense first type. If he comes back next year and gets back the explosiveness and athleticism he had in his earlier years the Kings suddenly become a team that could be a nightmare to score against.

Ultimately do I look into getting the guy? Sure why not, but I don't think we move on any type of deal, character issues GP never seems to have a problem with, but injury issues are another matter. Unless we can be certain KMart has the explosiveness back that made him a unique talent in New Jersey I wouldn't trade anyone on the roster for him.

Another thing about the character issue is I have to smile at people saying they'd never take this guy ever because of his attitude... some of them said the same things about Artest and now are some of Artests biggest supporters.
 
W

West_Gunslinger16

Guest
#47
#47
ovrush said:
I'd be inclined to say no because of his contract and injury issues but not necessarily because of the attitude. It's an interesting idea though for a few reasons.

1. The Kings have a LONG history of turning around guys like these - long on talent, long on baggage sort of guys - under Adelman. Now if Adelman isn't coming back I don't know if this trend continues. The fact is though although he's overpaid he's also in a situation where the Nuggets will be almost giving him away and I'm a big fan of buying low and selling high.

2. The fact that his value is so low for the Nuggets at the moment perhaps means you could get more from the Nuggets, ie Nene. Could Brad Miller and Kenny Thomas land these two? at this point i think so although Im not sure if the Kings would make the trade.

3. Upside - is it a huge gamble? YES! but the guy is the type of player we sorely lack in the frontcourt and fits our emerging character perfectly IF he's healthy. He's a hardnosed, nasty defense first type. If he comes back next year and gets back the explosiveness and athleticism he had in his earlier years the Kings suddenly become a team that could be a nightmare to score against.

Ultimately do I look into getting the guy? Sure why not, but I don't think we move on any type of deal, character issues GP never seems to have a problem with, but injury issues are another matter. Unless we can be certain KMart has the explosiveness back that made him a unique talent in New Jersey I wouldn't trade anyone on the roster for him.

Another thing about the character issue is I have to smile at people saying they'd never take this guy ever because of his attitude... some of them said the same things about Artest and now are some of Artests biggest supporters.
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You're right! Kenny and Bonzi are one of the MANY people Kings transformed into if not good but really really good players. Kenny wasn't that good when he was in Phila. So was Bonzi in Portland and Memphis. I guess Martin was just misguided by bad coaches. He would do good in SacTown. Plus he is not inconsistent like some players we have. Well said. Paragraphs 2 and 6 will answer all of the Kings problems.

KWA in tha house! (Kings wit Attitude)

C ?
F Martin
F Artest
G Wells
G Bibby

That would totally work. But I want a new center. You can't just include Miller - softies don't mix with hard men.
 
Padrino

Padrino

All-Star
#48
#48
West_Gunslinger16 said:
You're right! Kenny and Bonzi are one of the MANY people Kings transformed into if not good but really really good players. Kenny wasn't that good when he was in Phila. So was Bonzi in Portland and Memphis. I guess Martin was just misguided by bad coaches. He would do good in SacTown. Plus he is not inconsistent like some players we have. Well said. Paragraphs 2 and 6 will answer all of the Kings problems.

KWA in tha house! (Kings wit Attitude)

C ?
F Martin
F Artest
G Wells
G Bibby

That would totally work. But I want a new center. You can't just include Miller - softies don't mix with hard men.
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eh...but the kings typically don't get nasty contracts with those kind of guys. webber, wells, artest...none were cap-crippling when we traded for them. we resign them to nasty contracts, but rarely do we inherit them (pieces in the webber trade notwithstanding).

kenyon martin's contract is not worth the risk. people tried so incredibly hard to justify the webber trade based on his knee. why should we not only inherit a bad contract, but another bad knee? kenyon martin's athleticism was intriguing at one point, but that knee is going to be a problem in the future as far as athleticism is concerned. it may never completely debilitate him, but if you take away his athleticism, there's not much else of redeeming quality. he is neither an exceptional rebounder or defender. he can be explosive on offense, but his averages hardly justify his contract. no thanks.
 
B

BMiller52

All-Star
#49
#49
Padrino said:
eh...but the kings typically don't get nasty contracts with those kind of guys. webber, wells, artest...none were cap-crippling when we traded for them. we resign them to nasty contracts, but rarely do we inherit them (pieces in the webber trade notwithstanding).

kenyon martin's contract is not worth the risk. people tried so incredibly hard to justify the webber trade based on his knee. why should we not only inherit a bad contract, but another bad knee? kenyon martin's athleticism was intriguing at one point, but that knee is going to be a problem in the future as far as athleticism is concerned. it may never completely debilitate him, but if you take away his athleticism, there's not much else of redeeming quality. he is neither an exceptional rebounder or defender. he can be explosive on offense, but his averages hardly justify his contract. no thanks.
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That is false. Kenyon is a very good defender. His athleticism isn't gone, he was still throwing down crazy dunks this season.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#51
#51
West_Gunslinger16 said:
You're right! Kenny and Bonzi are one of the MANY people Kings transformed into if not good but really really good players. Kenny wasn't that good when he was in Phila. So was Bonzi in Portland and Memphis. I guess Martin was just misguided by bad coaches. He would do good in SacTown. Plus he is not inconsistent like some players we have. Well said. Paragraphs 2 and 6 will answer all of the Kings problems.

KWA in tha house! (Kings wit Attitude)

C ?
F Martin
F Artest
G Wells
G Bibby

That would totally work. But I want a new center. You can't just include Miller - softies don't mix with hard men.
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Except when that C is going to have to spread the floor. Besides Bibby you are looking at a team that can't compete out on the perimeter.
 
B

BMiller52

All-Star
#52
#52
SacTownKid said:
Except when that C is going to have to spread the floor. Besides Bibby you are looking at a team that can't compete out on the perimeter.
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Right now we would have Bibby/Wells/Artest/Martin/Miller. Maybe you can get Kenyon for cheap because his value is pretty low right now? By cheap I mean Thomas+Potapenko+Garcia for Kenyon+a player.
 
S

SacTownKing4Life

G-League
#53
#53
VF21 said:
How do you know what his knee will be like next year? We got rid of a potential HOF guy because of a bloated contract and a bad knee. I cannot imagine the Maloofs wanting to go down that road again. If his contract wasn't so ugly, maybe. But the $$$ is a deal killer, guaranteed.
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Couldn't have said it better myself. No thanks, 1 KMart is perfect for this team :).
 
M

Merdiesel

Starter
#55
#55
D-Mass said:
He is WAY overrated, and WAY overpriced.
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exactly, not to mention his giant ego. This fool is a scrub, hes not championship material.

Look what he did in the post season in Denver, people talk about Brad not showing up...:confused:
 
nbrans

nbrans

All-Star
#56
#56
Come on, people, we're still talking about this? Isiah making a terrible trade for Kenyon Martin is going to be the highlight of my summer. Don't spoil it.
 
Padrino

Padrino

All-Star
#57
#57
nbrans said:
Come on, people, we're still talking about this? Isiah making a terrible trade for Kenyon Martin is going to be the highlight of my summer. Don't spoil it.
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hey! here is something we both can agree on!

:D
 
V

Venom

Bench
#58
#58
BMiller52 said:
That is false. Kenyon is a very good defender. His athleticism isn't gone, he was still throwing down crazy dunks this season.
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He gets impressive looking weakside blocks, but he's not a good defender.
 
B

BMiller52

All-Star
#59
#59
Venom said:
He gets impressive looking weakside blocks, but he's not a good defender.
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Yes he is. When he and Camby are both on the floor Kenyon would guard the elite frontcourt player so Camby could roam and block shots. That's what I saw when I watched some of the denver games and it's what nuggets fans have said too.
 
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