[Game] Kings @ Wizards, Monday, Nov. 13 - 4 PT

[Vladizzle]

That's what happens when you give a coach former players he's coached and had success with. I don't know many teams in the NBA that throw the ball in the post and if they do, it may be to a guard for a mismatch of some sort but surrounding their entire offense on post ups? yikes!

The worst part about running and teaching these guys an offense of dumping it into the post is it's teaching and grooving them into a dying style of play.

Believe me, I'm all about old school, but the game has changed and continues to. It continues to be more about getting all 5 involved and low post dumps all game long negates that as much as I love the art of post game it just doesn't work with our personnel at all or match today's game.

It's sooo unfavorable to guards and the tempo takes players out of rhythm.

 

[kingsfan1984]

The worst part about running and teaching these guys an offense of dumping it into the post is it's teaching and grooving them into a dying style of play.

Believe me, I'm all about old school, but the game has changed and continues to. It continues to be more about getting all 5 involved and low post dumps all game long negates that as much as I love the art of post game it just doesn't work with our personnel at all or match today's game.

It's sooo unfavorable to guards and the tempo takes players out of rhythm.

Im really hoping Joeger knows something we all dont see or understand with what he is trying to do. Ive done my best to fnd a glimmer of something to hold faith in. Ive said it a few times and still feel strongly that an in depth interview bewteen Ham and Christie and Joeger where they go onto all this and take time to address the criticism that you voice often would be well appreciated by the fan base.
Im holding out that he knows what he is doing, but ive never been one to keep with blind faith. Lay it out where it makes the most sense and explain WHY his vision and approach is superioir in the long run as oppossed to what critics are wanting.
Really really tbink it would make for an incredible interview if Joeger agrees to give his real thoughts and not empty canned answers to avoid further critisism. If his approach is better then there is no reason for him to dodge hard critical queations. Instead it is a chance to educate fans that really want to understand what he is doing and garner more patience from the fanbase

 

[Kingster]

The worst part about running and teaching these guys an offense of dumping it into the post is it's teaching and grooving them into a dying style of play.

Believe me, I'm all about old school, but the game has changed and continues to. It continues to be more about getting all 5 involved and low post dumps all game long negates that as much as I love the art of post game it just doesn't work with our personnel at all or match today's game.

It's sooo unfavorable to guards and the tempo takes players out of rhythm.

If you want to see the Kings really get demolished, like the 1st Wiz game, change the offense to a drive and kick and see what happens. Fox isn't close to being competent in that role yet. They need a post up guy to give this team some stability and not have them completely fall apart at the beginning of the game, rather than the end. Joerger has already said that using Zach in the low post is a "break glass" [emergency] option. He's not doing that offense because he ideally wants to use that offense; he's using it because he has to use it. As time goes by and Fox learns the ropes, the offense will change accordingly.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

Im really hoping Joeger knows something we all dont see or understand with what he is trying to do. Ive done my best to fnd a glimmer of something to hold faith in. Ive said it a few times and still feel strongly that an in depth interview bewteen Ham and Christie and Joeger where they go onto all this and take time to address the criticism that you voice often would be well appreciated by the fan base.
Im holding out that he knows what he is doing, but ive never been one to keep with blind faith. Lay it out where it makes the most sense and explain WHY his vision and approach is superioir in the long run as oppossed to what critics are wanting.
Really really tbink it would make for an incredible interview if Joeger agrees to give his real thoughts and not empty canned answers to avoid further critisism. If his approach is better then there is no reason for him to dodge hard critical queations. Instead it is a chance to educate fans that really want to understand what he is doing and garner more patience from the fanbase

I'd love to hear that too. Because I honestly have no idea what he is doing. None of his substitutions make sense, we have 10 players playing more than 20 minutes a game but no one playing 30 minutes or more, players look lost and lack confidence, and no one has improved. I respect Joerger as a coach and do think he is a solid basketball mind, but he has botched it so far this year. Something is going to have to change soon.

 

[Vladizzle]

If you want to see the Kings really get demolished, like the 1st Wiz game, change the offense to a drive and kick and see what happens. Fox isn't close to being competent in that role yet. They need a post up guy to give this team some stability and not have them completely fall apart at the beginning of the game, rather than the end. Joerger has already said that using Zach in the low post is a "break glass" [emergency] option. He's not doing that offense because he ideally wants to use that offense; he's using it because he has to use it. As time goes by and Fox learns the ropes, the offense will change accordingly.

If we want to see the Kings really get demolished? Like losing by 25-30 in a different way is going to matter..

The Zbo emergency use is bs. Coming from Joerger, he's been using the same Zbo offense from day 1, it's his crutch and he can't let go of it and produce something more coherent.

To me, 5-7 young players producing somewhat decently or having a chance to is far more meaningful than 1 35 year old Zbo and 1 indecisive Skal sprinkled in with some Kosta and a lost soul WCS.

 

[gunks]

If you want to see the Kings really get demolished, like the 1st Wiz game, change the offense to a drive and kick and see what happens. Fox isn't close to being competent in that role yet. They need a post up guy to give this team some stability and not have them completely fall apart at the beginning of the game, rather than the end. Joerger has already said that using Zach in the low post is a "break glass" [emergency] option. He's not doing that offense because he ideally wants to use that offense; he's using it because he has to use it. As time goes by and Fox learns the ropes, the offense will change accordingly.

Quit throwing water on the fire (Joerger)!

I keed, I keed. Good sane take. None of the kids are close to being ready. We saw what happened in the "rest the vets" game. That was a wake up call!

The sad truth is that Z-bo is our best option on offense.

This roster was built to fail. We need a star in the draft. Unfortunately it's going to be ugly as hell to watch in the meantime.

Also, this is a teaching year. The kids still need to learn the game. If we run a fast break style Nellie offense, Fox might put up more points, but he also won't grow as a player and we'd still probably lose games by 20.

Everybody needs to chillax and read up on the top 5 players in the NCAA. It'll make y'all feel better.

 

[kingsboi]

The worst part about running and teaching these guys an offense of dumping it into the post is it's teaching and grooving them into a dying style of play.

Believe me, I'm all about old school, but the game has changed and continues to. It continues to be more about getting all 5 involved and low post dumps all game long negates that as much as I love the art of post game it just doesn't work with our personnel at all or match today's game.

It's sooo unfavorable to guards and the tempo takes players out of rhythm.

You said it yourself. It's a dying style of play with the current era and the versatility of bigs now a days. That said, yesterday the Kings were shooting 6/9 from three in the first half, correct me if I'm wrong. If they are shooting the three ball that well, they ought to be taking more, not slowing it down and feeding a 36 year old PF out of his prime.

 

[CelticsFan]

.

This roster was built to fail.

Wait...what....you mean tank? No, not the Kings, that's what other teams do. Not us

 

[The Effort Police]

You said it yourself. It's a dying style of play with the current era and the versatility of bigs now a days. That said, yesterday the Kings were shooting 6/9 from three in the first half, correct me if I'm wrong. If they are shooting the three ball that well, they ought to be taking more, not slowing it down and feeding a 36 year old PF out of his prime.

I checked the stats yesterday because I was curious. We're deadlast in 3PA. Our percentage isn't elite but it's average to above league-average. Unlike the Cousins years, we actually have the shooters to be an decent shooting team right now.

 

[kingsboi]

Quit throwing water on the fire (Joerger)!

I keed, I keed. Good sane take. None of the kids are close to being ready. We saw what happened in the "rest the vets" game. That was a wake up call!

The sad truth is that Z-bo is our best option on offense.

This roster was built to fail. We need a star in the draft. Unfortunately it's going to be ugly as hell to watch in the meantime.

Also, this is a teaching year. The kids still need to learn the game. If we run a fast break style Nellie offense, Fox might put up more points, but he also won't grow as a player and we'd still probably lose games by 20.

Everybody needs to chillax and read up on the top 5 players in the NCAA. It'll make y'all feel better.

Tonight has two juicy games where we get a sneak peak of whats to come

 

[kingsboi]

I checked the stats yesterday because I was curious. We're deadlast in 3PA. Our percentage isn't elite but it's average to above league-average. Unlike the Cousins years, we actually have the shooters to be an decent shooting team right now.

Weren't the Kings a decent three point shooting team last season with the likes of Tolliver, Temple, Galloway & Hield shooting them?

 

[kingsboi]

Quit throwing water on the fire (Joerger)!

I keed, I keed. Good sane take. None of the kids are close to being ready. We saw what happened in the "rest the vets" game. That was a wake up call!

The sad truth is that Z-bo is our best option on offense.

This roster was built to fail. We need a star in the draft. Unfortunately it's going to be ugly as hell to watch in the meantime.

Also, this is a teaching year. The kids still need to learn the game. If we run a fast break style Nellie offense, Fox might put up more points, but he also won't grow as a player and we'd still probably lose games by 20.

Everybody needs to chillax and read up on the top 5 players in the NCAA. It'll make y'all feel better.

That's essentially the goal here for the next season or two, until the Kings land themselves a cornerstone. It's just the style of play that's frustrating more than anything.

 

[SacTownKid]

Quit throwing water on the fire (Joerger)!

I keed, I keed. Good sane take. None of the kids are close to being ready. We saw what happened in the "rest the vets" game. That was a wake up call!

The sad truth is that Z-bo is our best option on offense.

This roster was built to fail. We need a star in the draft. Unfortunately it's going to be ugly as hell to watch in the meantime.

Also, this is a teaching year. The kids still need to learn the game. If we run a fast break style Nellie offense, Fox might put up more points, but he also won't grow as a player and we'd still probably lose games by 20.

Everybody needs to chillax and read up on the top 5 players in the NCAA. It'll make y'all feel better.

You could more so say it wasn't built to win now. Well, actually the way Joerger is playing some of the non-long term, nor true first option veteran talent on the team you could think the exact opposite. The young players on the team, Skal and Buddy in particular are being stifled and not in a positive way. Or least they aren't in a role that puts them in a position to succeed at the highest level individually which as I've brought up before, from strictly a value standpoint the Kings can't survive without. That could be the difference between multiple options and avenues to a speedy rebuild, or another decade long struggle where the next in line decent, better today vet crunches the potential away. Salmons, ZBo, whoever, we've seen this path before as fans and we can tell the coaches staff where it ends if they need some help. And as for the running thing, I think the common sense thought is that's probably the best use of someone like Fox and a primary reason why he was drafted where he was.

 

[Vladizzle]

I checked the stats yesterday because I was curious. We're deadlast in 3PA. Our percentage isn't elite but it's average to above league-average. Unlike the Cousins years, we actually have the shooters to be an decent shooting team right now.

That's annoying but believable. We have Hield, Hill, Carter, Bogdan, Temple...all very good 3 pt shooters...Jackson, Mason are solid...even Zbo steps out a bunch, yet we're dead last..insane.

I even kind of don't like that Fox is asked to not shoot 3s just because he's not good yet at them. Wouldn't this be the perfect time to develop that?

 

[Kingster]

If we want to see the Kings really get demolished? Like losing by 25-30 in a different way is going to matter..

The Zbo emergency use is bs. Coming from Joerger, he's been using the same Zbo offense from day 1, it's his crutch and he can't let go of it and produce something more coherent.

To me, 5-7 young players producing somewhat decently or having a chance to is far more meaningful than 1 35 year old Zbo and 1 indecisive Skal sprinkled in with some Kosta and a lost soul WCS.

Yes, it will matter. It matters if you are behind by 30 at the half rather than behind by 20 at the end of the game and you kept it close for two to three quarters. It especially matters if the point guard of the future is overwhelmed by the responsibility of carrying the team at age 19. It all matters.

 

[Kingster]

Quit throwing water on the fire (Joerger)!

I keed, I keed. Good sane take. None of the kids are close to being ready. We saw what happened in the "rest the vets" game. That was a wake up call!

The sad truth is that Z-bo is our best option on offense.

This roster was built to fail. We need a star in the draft. Unfortunately it's going to be ugly as hell to watch in the meantime.

Also, this is a teaching year. The kids still need to learn the game. If we run a fast break style Nellie offense, Fox might put up more points, but he also won't grow as a player and we'd still probably lose games by 20.

Everybody needs to chillax and read up on the top 5 players in the NCAA. It'll make y'all feel better.

And realize that we might have another good player in Harry Giles. We'll see in January.

 

[Vladizzle]

I mean it's no secret. Under Joerger he's consistently at the bottom in 3 pointers attempted... Even now with shooting personnel, we're dead last. While Memphis has been middle of the pack under Fizdale so far.

 

[Vladizzle]

Yes, it will matter. It matters if you are behind by 30 at the half rather than behind by 20 at the end of the game and you kept it close for two to three quarters. It especially matters if the point guard of the future is overwhelmed by the responsibility of carrying the team at age 19. It all matters.

Who's saying for Fox to put the team on his back..? Nobody even said that.

And you are simply predicting that we will be blown out in this exact format if we run a different offense?

Ridiculous.

 

[206Fan]

Just for those interested, tonight will showcase elite NBA prospects. Duke PF Marvin Bagley III and MSU SF Miles Bridges. Other 1st round prospects as well: MSU PF Jaren Jackson and Duke C Wendall Carter.

 

[Joshoua]

Just for those interested, tonight will showcase elite NBA prospects. Duke PF Marvin Bagley III and MSU SF Miles Bridges. Other 1st round prospects as well: MSU PF Jaren Jackson and Duke C Wendall Carter.

Bagley is good and it will be a good game Wendell Carter will be a top 6 pick and has Al Holford comps.

But man o man Ayton and Doncic make my heart melt.

 

[gunks]

And realize that we might have another good player in Harry Giles. We'll see in January.

I'm trying not to get too hyped over Giles given his medical history (even though they were all contact injuries, it's still pretty iffy that he's had so many), but Giles would be a huge bonus if he's truly healthy and rehabilitated.

Like you said, we'll see in January!

 

[The Effort Police]

Quit throwing water on the fire (Joerger)!

I keed, I keed. Good sane take. None of the kids are close to being ready. We saw what happened in the "rest the vets" game. That was a wake up call!

The sad truth is that Z-bo is our best option on offense.

This roster was built to fail. We need a star in the draft. Unfortunately it's going to be ugly as hell to watch in the meantime.

Also, this is a teaching year. The kids still need to learn the game. If we run a fast break style Nellie offense, Fox might put up more points, but he also won't grow as a player and we'd still probably lose games by 20.

Everybody needs to chillax and read up on the top 5 players in the NCAA. It'll make y'all feel better.

Everyone is going to point to that game for their argument, but there have been several other games where they've fallen apart just as bad if not worse with the vets playing. The starting lineup has pissed away several games in a matter of minutes already. We can talk about the hypothetical of what would happen if we switched to the other offenses, but we've seen opponent runs, scoring droughts, and big deficits multiple times already thanks to the starters.

This is the first time I've seen this argument. Simplifying it to a Nellie offense is a weird point; the offense as is is more one-note than what I was suggesting, which was a mix. I'm not arguing for a one-noate offense, all NBA offenses have facets of everything or close to everything (Hello, Houston!), but every one has its emphases.

This is the first time I've heard this argument. I have a hard time believing that this mismatched style of offense will help them grow as players and learn the game. Now, I can't tell this for certain, but I'd wager a bet that in 2015-16, everyone would've soured on Karl's offense by now. I certainly have a hard time believing that someone argued it would help people's development. But let's take a guy from that year's team. Ben McLemore, one of our draft disappointments. His second year is by far his best professional season, in Malone's structured system. Come Year 3, enter Karl. He goes into the free-flowing Karl system that his low BBIQ can't handle; he flounders, everyone sours on him, and it doesn't help his career in the slightest.

 

[Vladizzle]

I think the best evidence is that the only time we really score well is when someone says F it and just starts playing outside the offense or we push it in transition.

Whenever we set up the offense we end up with a slow motion Kosta Koufos hook shot in the paint or a hesitant looking 3 off a screen that took 22 seconds of the clock to set up.

 

[gunks]

Everyone is going to point to that game for their argument, but there have been several other games where they've fallen apart just as bad if not worse with the vets playing. The starting lineup has pissed away several games in a matter of minutes already. We can talk about the hypothetical of what would happen if we switched to the other offenses, but we've seen opponent runs, scoring droughts, and big deficits multiple times already thanks to the starters.

This is the first time I've seen this argument. Simplifying it to a Nellie offense is a weird point; the offense as is is more one-note than what I was suggesting, which was a mix. I'm not arguing for a one-noate offense, all NBA offenses have facets of everything or close to everything (Hello, Houston!), but every one has its emphases.

This is the first time I've heard this argument. I have a hard time believing that this mismatched style of offense will help them grow as players and learn the game. Now, I can't tell this for certain, but I'd wager a bet that in 2015-16, everyone would've soured on Karl's offense by now. I certainly have a hard time believing that someone argued it would help people's development. But let's take a guy from that year's team. Ben McLemore, one of our draft disappointments. His second year is by far his best professional season, in Malone's structured system. Come Year 3, enter Karl. He goes into the free-flowing Karl system that his low BBIQ can't handle; he flounders, everyone sours on him, and it doesn't help his career in the slightest.

I'm not going to try and say the starters aren't just as awful, because they are. Z-bo being your best player is a recipe for a high draft pick, which is the point.

And going straight to Nellie ball was hyperbolic of me, and I agree that good offenses mix it up. I just don't think that our guys are ready for it.

I get the frustration, I just think that with this roster and how early we are in the season, it's way to soon to call for the coach's head (which is where the game threads tend to be going lately).

 

[The Effort Police]

I'm not going to try and say the starters aren't just as awful, because they are. Z-bo being your best player is a recipe for a high draft pick, which is the point.

And going straight to Nellie ball was hyperbolic of me, and I agree that good offenses mix it up. I just don't think that our guys are ready for it.

I get the frustration, I just think that with this roster and how early we are in the season, it's way to soon to call for the coach's head (which is where the game threads tend to be going lately).

I'm not calling for the coach's head. We can't fire Joerger, or it's back to the Musselmans and Natts and Smarts of the world. But I've had my questions to his fit on a rebuilding team even before the season started, and nothing so far has eased my concerns.

You're right in that they're not ready. I don't care about what the results have been, I don't care about the piling losses. There's an argument that the Joerger criticisms are coming from the piling losses; I don't know why. In fact, I at least want the Top 5 pick. I'm concerned about this actually being our offense for the future and not just a last resort, because it sure doesn't look like it to me. I'm concerned that the vet love affair never actually goes away; it's why I didn't want to give Joerger them, especially these ill-fitting Joerger favorites.

And all throughout the offseason the narrative was that the young guys were going to be put in positions where they could succeed, easing them in or whatever you want to call it. Joerger even said as much. Not the way I would do it but whatever; it was something that some people latched onto. That's why the vets are here among other things. I assumed he meant that by way of the opponent's fit, but also the system they were running.

You mentioned this was necessary for growth and learning the game. But... right off the bat? At the very start of their careers they are thrown into a system that for the majority of them isn't ideal to what their game is like... to learn the game? (or should be like. I'm looking at you WCS) Seems more like trial by fire to me.

Number one, half the time they have to come in and clean up the radioactive wasteland the starters left behind. Number two, the offense doesn't change much. Randolph may be the goto guy, but he's not the only one who the ball gets dumped to. The end result of offense in the second unit is a Koufos hook or Fox/Buddy having to create for themselves.

 

[gunks]

I'm not calling for the coach's head. We can't fire Joerger, or it's back to the Musselmans and Natts and Smarts of the world. But I've had my questions to his fit on a rebuilding team even before the season started, and nothing so far has eased my concerns.

You're right in that they're not ready. I don't care about what the results have been, I don't care about the piling losses. There's an argument that the Joerger criticisms are coming from the piling losses. In fact, I at least want the Top 5 pick. I'm concerned about this actually being our offense for the future and not just a last resort, because it sure doesn't look like it to me. I'm concerned that the vet love affair never actually goes away; it's why I didn't want to give Joerger them, especially these ill-fitting Joerger favorites.

And all throughout the offseason the narrative was that the young guys were going to be put in positions where they could succeed, easing them in or whatever you want to call it. Joerger even said as much. Not the way I would do it but whatever; it was something that some people latched onto. That's why the vets are here among other things. I assumed he meant that by way of the opponent's fit, but also the system they were running.

You mentioned this was necessary for growth and learning the game. But... right off the bat? At the very start of their careers they are thrown into a system that for the majority of them isn't ideal to what their game is like... to learn the game? (or should be like. I'm looking at you WCS) Seems more like trial by fire to me.

Number one, half the time they have to come in and clean up the radioactive wasteland the starters left behind. Number two, the offense doesn't change much. Randolph may be the goto guy, but he's not the only one who the ball gets dumped to. The end result of offense in the second unit is a Koufos hook or Fox/Buddy having to create for themselves.

You make a bunch of valid points.

Honestly, I'm just trying to give the benefit of the doubt to Joerger and hope for the best. The alternative is too bleak!

Dave is definitely stubborn, but there may be a method to his madness. I think it'll be a couple more months before we know for sure.

And I'm just as eager as anyone else to see some break out performances from the kids, they've been few and far between. Buddy has been doing great since moving to the bench. Maybe we'll see some more adjustments in the coming games.

I just can't pin the lack of development on Joerger just yet. Fox and Skal are raw as heck. WCS is a space case. Papa is... Papa.

Not every kid is going to come out of the gates like Reke, Cuz, or IT..... and a lot of good this franchise made of those talents anyways.