[Game] Kings vs. Wizards, 12/15/2021 7pm Pacific 10pm Eastern

SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#271
#271
Tetsujin said:
https://twitter.com/statuses/1471351678297251844
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Dang it, Doug Christie has had the makings of a coach from the moment he stepped on the floor as a player for Sac, BUT, the easy call in this was Bobby as HC and DC as his lead. Christie doesn't have the experience but the potential for sure. However, either can still be seen as an "outsider", which is bigger psychologically than people think. Especially when your GM has let a certain stink linger.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#272
#272
kingsfan101 said:
I think his team overplayed their hand. They were expecting the Sixers to blink, since that's what FOs typically do when given ultimatums by stars and power agents. Only that the Sixers didn't, started docking his salary, and claiming that they were ready to wait out 4 years.

While no one expects it to last 4 years, likely not even the trade deadline, Simmons had already painted himself into a corner, and now has little leverage. Yes, he's an elite talent, but his recent behavior, along with his PO troubles will limit what teams offer for him, which in turn might force Sixers to delay trading him (unlikely, but possible if the offers stay underwhelming).

While I would love to have a player like him, at this point, his salary and issues are too great of a red flag to give too much away. I'm sure most teams are thinking like that, but someone will likely bite the bullet, potentially making the other 28 teams regret.
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Yeah my read on Simmons has been the same since the Summer; You're worth what the market will pay for you. Pretty much everyone knows it's highly unlikely he suits up for the Sixers again and it's going to come down to how much of the Embiid/Tobias prime is Morey willing to sit on when he could be using Ben Simmons to get more assets to push for a title the next 2-3 years.

On paper, is Fox worth Simmons? Absolutely. But from a pure negotiating tactic, I don't think it makes sense to pull that deal when you know the other team is going to be forced into a trade at some point. Sixers have absolutely no leverage. I think GMs are going to wait it out until they don't have to give up a premium asset for him (what he's actually worth).
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#273
#273
The_Jamal said:
Yeah my read on Simmons has been the same since the Summer; You're worth what the market will pay for you. Pretty much everyone knows it's highly unlikely he suits up for the Sixers again and it's going to come down to how much of the Embiid/Tobias prime is Morey willing to sit on when he could be using Ben Simmons to get more assets to push for a title the next 2-3 years.

On paper, is Fox worth Simmons? Absolutely. But from a pure negotiating tactic, I don't think it makes sense to pull that deal when you know the other team is going to be forced into a trade at some point. Sixers have absolutely no leverage. I think GMs are going to wait it out until they don't have to give up a premium asset for him (what he's actually worth).
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The above pretty much lines up with how I’ve seen this situation from the very beginning.

If no potential trade partner panics, the Sixers are eventually going to take far less than they believe Simmons is worth. As correctly stated, they have little to no leverage. They’re just biding time hoping some team panics and makes a mistake.

Which is a risky tactic because if nobody does panic and they finally arrive at the day where they have to make a move, will it have been worth the damage done throughout the long saga?
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#274
#274
The_Jamal said:
Yeah my read on Simmons has been the same since the Summer; You're worth what the market will pay for you. Pretty much everyone knows it's highly unlikely he suits up for the Sixers again and it's going to come down to how much of the Embiid/Tobias prime is Morey willing to sit on when he could be using Ben Simmons to get more assets to push for a title the next 2-3 years.

On paper, is Fox worth Simmons? Absolutely. But from a pure negotiating tactic, I don't think it makes sense to pull that deal when you know the other team is going to be forced into a trade at some point. Sixers have absolutely no leverage. I think GMs are going to wait it out until they don't have to give up a premium asset for him (what he's actually worth).
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Fox does not have Simmons’ value. The rest of your reasoning crumbles.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#276
#276
SacTownKid said:
Dang it, Doug Christie has had the makings of a coach from the moment he stepped on the floor as a player for Sac, BUT, the easy call in this was Bobby as HC and DC as his lead. Christie doesn't have the experience but the potential for sure. However, either can still be seen as an "outsider", which is bigger psychologically than people think. Especially when your GM has let a certain stink linger.
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Don’t want Bobby or Doug as head coach of the Kings until the Vlade core is gone.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#277
#277
Fox doing well against the Wizards is great. They’re one of the teams, who would work in a three way deal with Philly.

Kings out: Fox, first, filler.
Kings in: Simmons and filler.

Wiz out: Beal and filler.
Wiz in: Fox, Sac first, Philly first, filler.

Philly out: Simmons, filler, first.
Philly in: Beal and filler.
 
N

New Era

Starter
#278
#278
kb02 said:
Fox doing well against the Wizards is great. They’re one of the teams, who would work in a three way deal with Philly.

Kings out: Fox, first, filler.
Kings in: Simmons and filler.

Wiz out: Beal and filler.
Wiz in: Fox, Sac first, Philly first, filler.

Philly out: Simmons, filler, first.
Philly in: Beal and filler.
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No way would I give up Fox AND a 1st for Simmons. At this point, I'm not even sure about Fox straight up for Simmons. Do we really want a mental case on this team?
 
G

Groovygreg

Starter
#281
#281
kingsboi said:
what part of my comment confused you to believe that it's about Morant vs Fox?
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Your statement wasn’t confusing, it just seems like some folks (not you necessarily) like to take every opportunity to argue that Ja is better than Fox.

I was joking around in a general sense - I wasn’t taking aim at you.

Sorry if it came across that way.
 
iowamcnabb

iowamcnabb

All-Star
#282
#282
Why can’t we get aggressive HB all the time? His play in the 4th was all star caliber and we have seen that in spurts over the years. If he could do that consistently, that could change the trajectory of the season. In the past, we could use lack of depth as an excuse. This year, Bagley and Metu have shown us they are capable of productive minutes. Aggressive HB, Hali and Fox coupled with the return of an efficient roll partner for Ty (Jr uh oh) would do wonders for this team. At the very least that’s an entertaining group I would be happy to tune in for.
 
W

Woot!

Starter
#286
#286
hrdboild said:
Not to rag on Alvin Gentry when he's down and out, but the contrast between Doug Christie coaching this whole game on his feet and Gentry chilling in his chair shaking his head while the wheels fall off in Toronto couldn't be more striking. I don't know if that's the entire reason the team clamped down and closed this one out strong in the 4th quarter but teams have been known to take on the personality of their head coach.
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Eh. I think it very likely that they were especially motivated to get Doug a win. I think there's no doubt he's popular with the players.

AND they were coming off a players'-only meeting.

AND coming off that *hideous* road trip, any pride they have was likely to manifest itself last night.

AND they were playing at home and clearly do feel motivated to show out for their fans.

AND they were playing a Wizards team having its own struggles.

All to say: I personally won't put much stock in the significance of the style/personality difference between AG and DC. A more substantive difference between them that does intrigue me: DC played everyone available to him and played them shorter stints. At least, it seemed that way, especially first half. I think it was to give guys no reason not to play hard while they were out there, even w/Bags/TD/Richaun out.

Relatedly, notice that, w/one exception, no one played more than HB's 32 min. Except for games in which the Kings have been blown out early, I doubt that's happened all year. The one exception was Tyrese, who played 36 but didn't play the last couple minutes. IOW, DC's management of the minutes thru the first 3 quarters meant they had big energy to expend in the 4th. Along w/the points, the Kings also made up a sizable rebounding disadvantage in the 4th.

Worth watching.
 
EIM86

EIM86

Starter
#288
#288
Woot! said:
Eh. I think it very likely that they were especially motivated to get Doug a win. I think there's no doubt he's popular with the players.

AND they were coming off a players'-only meeting.

AND coming off that *hideous* road trip, any pride they have was likely to manifest itself last night.

AND they were playing at home and clearly do feel motivated to show out for their fans.

AND they were playing a Wizards team having its own struggles.

All to say: I personally won't put much stock in the significance of the style/personality difference between AG and DC. A more substantive difference between them that does intrigue me: DC played everyone available to him and played them shorter stints. At least, it seemed that way, especially first half. I think it was to give guys no reason not to play hard while they were out there, even w/Bags/TD/Richaun out.

Relatedly, notice that, w/one exception, no one played more than HB's 32 min. Except for games in which the Kings have been blown out early, I doubt that's happened all year. The one exception was Tyrese, who played 36 but didn't play the last couple minutes. IOW, DC's management of the minutes thru the first 3 quarters meant they had big energy to expend in the 4th. Along w/the points, the Kings also made up a sizable rebounding disadvantage in the 4th.

Worth watching.
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man if DC ends up coaching 5 games and we do very well, the minutes distribution really could be the key of how to run this team. The players had zero excuse to be tired for the 4th and went balls deep
 
W

Woot!

Starter
#289
#289
iowamcnabb said:
Why can’t we get aggressive HB all the time? His play in the 4th was all star caliber and we have seen that in spurts over the years. If he could do that consistently, that could change the trajectory of the season. In the past, we could use lack of depth as an excuse. This year, Bagley and Metu have shown us they are capable of productive minutes. Aggressive HB, Hali and Fox coupled with the return of an efficient roll partner for Ty (Jr uh oh) would do wonders for this team. At the very least that’s an entertaining group I would be happy to tune in for.
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Some of the lack of aggressiveness is definitely on HB. He's very much a "play the right way" guy and always has been, including at UNC and for a couple seasons w/the Mavs when he was supposed to be The Guy.

But a lot of it is on his teammates and the coaches. HB rarely forces the issue offensively and he's not gonna demand the ball. One upside of that approach is that he's not gonna shoot the team out of games. You won't see 3-18 shooting nights from him. But especially if he's not going well, and often even if he's going well, they HAVE to run more sets for him. They HAVE to put the ball in his hands with a mandate to shoot or create. And, as I keep whining, for very long stretches in most games, his teammates ignore him.

It's a major problem. Cuz *this* team needs HB to be a #2 scorer to Fox's #1 to go anywhere. Buddy's way too streaky and focused on the 3-ball. Richaun can be swallowed up by bigger centers. HB is an efficient, 3-level scorer, the most efficient non-big on the team and that's been true since he joined the Kings. But the 11.6 FGA/game he averages doesn't cut it.

He needs to be more aggressive. And his teammates and the coaching staff need to call his number much more often.
 
W

Woot!

Starter
#290
#290
EIM86 said:
man if DC ends up coaching 5 games and we do very well, the minutes distribution really could be the key of how to run this team. The players had zero excuse to be tired for the 4th and went balls deep
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It's ironic that they finally really used their depth on the night they had only 10 guys available, but it's true. They've played 9, 10, even 11 guys before. The difference is that among the nine core guys last night (excluding DJones, who only played 3), even the guy who played least (Metu) played 17 and NO ONE, except Tyrese, got really big minutes.

We've known since there roster came into shape that this was the best formula for the Kings' success this year - play hard, play deep. It's a really good sign to see them win a game by double-digits while shooting poorly from 3 (31%). That's gotta be a first this year.

Hopefully last night won't just be a blip.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#293
#293
kingsfan101 said:
At this point, that's not true. Simmons is a better talent than Fox, but there is a reason no one has made a compelling offer for him yet. He needs to get his head straight, and show that he can be a player teams can rely on to justify the argument that he has more value than Fox.
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No one outside of Kings fans believe this. Amick, Fisher, Carmichael Dave (he's an exception)...
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#296
#296
Groovygreg said:
Your statement wasn’t confusing, it just seems like some folks (not you necessarily) like to take every opportunity to argue that Ja is better than Fox.

I was joking around in a general sense - I wasn’t taking aim at you.

Sorry if it came across that way.
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all is well on this side here, I know comments can be taken the wrong way if no emojis are inserted or something of the sort. that said, do you think that Ja is better than Fox?
 
jcassio

jcassio

Starter
#297
#297
kb02 said:
Fox had a good game, but his ceiling is a good to very good player over the long term. I would trade him for an elite talent like Simmons in a heartbeat.
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There you go with the word “ceiling” again. If you knew where a player’s ceiling was, you wouldn’t have time to be on this board. Could you just take yourself a little less seriously, please?
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#298
#298
jcassio said:
There you go with the word “ceiling” again. If you knew where a player’s ceiling was, you wouldn’t have time to be on this board. Could you just take yourself a little less seriously, please?
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I’ll stick to my views and will take them as seriously as I please. Carry on.
 
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