[Game] Kings vs. Timberwolves 10/24/2024 7pm Pacific 10pm Eastern

[Section 101]

I actually thought Kevin played okay. Wasn’t that impactful either way.

I would much prefer that compared to Lyle’s’ performance. When he came in the game we looked noticeably worse. Hoping it is just shaking off the rust. Not going to overreact based on 1 game.

There were plenty of positives last night. That was a pissed off Wolves team that “needed” this win after that performance against the lakers.

Lyles started the downfall with poor shot selection. Under 2 mins in the 3rd Kings up 10. Wolves hit a shot cutting to 8. Kings push the ball Lyles takes a moving 3 point shot in the corner and misses with like 18 seconds on the shot clock. They needed a better shot and run more clock to close the quarter. Minny goes down on the scramble and hits a wide open 3 from Naz. 5 point game and Minny now has all the momentum taking a 1 point lead to the 4th.

 

[fansinceday1]

just saw the replay. Man, that was a good game. And minny is suppose to be one of the top teams in the league. It was disappointing to see the kings go cold to let the wolves take the momentum but it shows that the kings future may be very bright.

 

[Srzly]

Lyles started the downfall with poor shot selection. Under 2 mins in the 3rd Kings up 10. Wolves hit a shot cutting to 8. Kings push the ball Lyles takes a moving 3 point shot in the corner and misses with like 18 seconds on the shot clock. They needed a better shot and run more clock to close the quarter. Minny goes down on the scramble and hits a wide open 3 from Naz. 5 point game and Minny now has all the momentum taking a 1 point lead to the 4th.

Yeah that is exactly what sticks out in my mind with his performance. He was taking the first shot he had vs trying to get the best shot possible on the possession for the team.

We completely lost all momentum and Brown couldn’t pull him fast enough.

Outside of Monk, our bench play was not good.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Yeah, you hate to pick on one or two plays but that Lyles shot was a back breaker. So was Keon’s after he helped force the turnover, I think, when he immediately rushed the shot no reason. Then I think Fox immediately picked up a frustration foul? That was a tough stretch.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

It's no use, this forum is contractually obligated to have a fall guy and it's just Huerter now.

Barnes got the privilege of fall-guy retirement this summer, but the position is always filled.

 

[ESP47]

I can't tell if it was a figment of my imagination or if the Wolves had twice as many wide open 3s as the Kings?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Yeah, you hate to pick on one or two plays but that Lyles shot was a back breaker. So was Keon’s after he helped force the turnover, I think, when he immediately rushed the shot no reason.

Yep, both of those had me screaming at the TV. "Back breaker" is exactly right. Our offense never recovered. To some extent, things didn't work nearly as smoothly on offense as they did last year. More firepower, but for now, the whole business is just not a well-oiled machine. Domas being moved off the ball for the most part (only one assist!) didn't really seem to help the flow.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Yep, both of those had me screaming at the TV. "Back breaker" is exactly right. Our offense never recovered. To some extent, things didn't work nearly as smoothly on offense as they did last year. More firepower, but for now, the whole business is just not a well-oiled machine. Domas being moved off the ball for the most part (only one assist!) didn't really seem to help the flow.

Agreed. Similar to last year, it felt like the TWolves’ runs happened more due to the Kings offense bogging down, rather than failing to get stops.

That said, given that they are still working to incorporate a major piece, I’m optimistic things will get better with the offense in time, as players get more comfortable working together.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I can't tell if it was a figment of my imagination or if the Wolves had twice as many wide open 3s as the Kings?

Well they did shoot 50 of them, so it's likely

 

[twslam07]

I won’t be surprised to see Huerter get around the amount of shots he got last night if Brown continues to start him. That’s one of the reasons why many of us wanted him coming off the bench. There’d be more offensive opportunities if he’s sharing the floor with the bench unit.

Not that I think Randle is an ideal defensive matchup for Murray, but I think we would have been better off having Murray checking Randle and Ellis checking Edwards from the very beginning. Instead, we had to put Murray on Edwards which I think allowed Randle to get too comfortable and get in a rhythm.

Having two versatile, great/elite defenders in the starting lineup (who are also not heavily relied upon for offensive production) is a great luxury to have. It gives us a chance every night to slow down the opposing team’s top 2 offensive options while our offensive stars (Fox, DeRozan, and Sabonis) can save their legs a bit on defense. We intentionally chose to not do that last night by starting Huerter and we saw Randle get hot and get into a rhythm rather quickly.

This post is not an attack on Huerter by the way. I actually thought he was okay defensively and solid on the boards, but if our starting SG is going to only get 4 shots per game, you best believe I want that guy to be Ellis considering everything else he brings to the table.

 

[Padrino]

I won’t be surprised to see Huerter get around the amount of shots he got last night if Brown continues to start him. That’s one of the reasons why many of us wanted him coming off the bench. There’d be more offensive opportunities if he’s sharing the floor with the bench unit.

Not that I think Randle is an ideal defensive matchup for Murray, but I think we would have been better off having Murray checking Randle and Ellis checking Edwards from the very beginning. Instead, we had to put Murray on Edwards which I think allowed Randle to get too comfortable and get in a rhythm.

Having two versatile, great/elite defenders in the starting lineup (who are also not heavily relied upon for offensive production) is a great luxury to have. It gives us a chance every night to slow down the opposing team’s top 2 offensive options while our offensive stars (Fox, DeRozan, and Murray) can save their legs a bit on defense. We intentionally chose to not do that last night by starting Huerter and we saw Randle get hot and get into a rhythm rather quickly.

This post is not an attack on Huerter by the way. I actually thought he was okay defensively and solid on the boards, but if our starting SG is going to only get 4 shots per game, you best believe I want that guy to be Ellis considering everything else he brings to the table.

Yeah, I think this is kind of my rationale, as well. The Kings' offense is going to look a bit different with DDR in the starting lineup, and if Keegan continues his upward trajectory, he's simply not going to be squeezed out of the offense like many predicted he might. That means whoever mans the starting SG spot is just going to be marginalized in an offense that has attackers, creators, playmakers, and shot takers aplenty.

Since Domas will often bridge the gap between the starting unit and the first calls off the bench, I'd probably be inclined to bring Huerter in with that first set of subs and let him try and find a bit of rhythm with the second unit where he might have a bit more room to breathe offensively. For all the gravity Huerter can create out of the DHO, I'm not sure there's space enough in the starting lineup for that weapon to be maximized in a meaningful way. And Keon just makes too much sense in the starting unit as a lockdown defender and spot-up threat off Fox/DDR kickouts.

Huerter's clearly a movement shooter, and seems to find his rhythm curling off screens. While Keon strikes me as more of a standstill shooter, which might actually be more effective in a starting lineup with the kind of at-the-rim and midrange moxie the Kings possess.

 

[joemama]

based on what? Even in a down year last season he shot 36 percent on high volume. Analytically that’s still considered good. If they can find more catch and shoot opportunities for him I think that number could go up

Based on watching.
Husk of a husk of his former self.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I can't tell if it was a figment of my imagination or if the Wolves had twice as many wide open 3s as the Kings?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849851902730829864

 

[Capt. Factorial]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849851902730829864

That matches my eye test. Allowing 24 wide-open threes is absolutely unsustainable, and if the T'Wolves hadn't basically bricked them the score wouldn't have been close.

We're already easily on our way to taking over the #1 slot in 3PT% allowed (not in a good way) this year after being the runner-up last year - since the T'Wolves should have shot at least 50% on those wide-open threes, we should have allowed at least 46% shooting.

I'm surprised that we shot 80% on free throws, because it didn't feel like it. DDR's 12-14 really helped on that count, but our other FT-line residents Fox+Domas going 70% on 10 combined attempts (last year: 72.1% on 10.8 combined attempts per game) was par for last year.

As they say, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

It's not exactly time to throw out the season based on one game, but if we can't manage to find some improvement in these obvious problem areas halfway through the season, I may have to start murmuring about Brown's tenure. I like Brown, I love that he finally got us to the playoffs last year, but it's his job to fix these obvious deficiencies. It is well past time to start seeing improvement here.

 

[SacTownKid]

Felt like his threes hurt the worst though.

Yeah, the player that kind of took the Kings out physically was moreso Edwards. Too quick for the bigs, too strong for the guards.

 

[sactowndog]

I won’t be surprised to see Huerter get around the amount of shots he got last night if Brown continues to start him. That’s one of the reasons why many of us wanted him coming off the bench. There’d be more offensive opportunities if he’s sharing the floor with the bench unit.

Not that I think Randle is an ideal defensive matchup for Murray, but I think we would have been better off having Murray checking Randle and Ellis checking Edwards from the very beginning. Instead, we had to put Murray on Edwards which I think allowed Randle to get too comfortable and get in a rhythm.

Having two versatile, great/elite defenders in the starting lineup (who are also not heavily relied upon for offensive production) is a great luxury to have. It gives us a chance every night to slow down the opposing team’s top 2 offensive options while our offensive stars (Fox, DeRozan, and Sabonis) can save their legs a bit on defense. We intentionally chose to not do that last night by starting Huerter and we saw Randle get hot and get into a rhythm rather quickly.

This post is not an attack on Huerter by the way. I actually thought he was okay defensively and solid on the boards, but if our starting SG is going to only get 4 shots per game, you best believe I want that guy to be Ellis considering everything else he brings to the table.

I agree with this fully. Putting Kevin in with the starters doesn’t let Kevin do what he does well.

as for last night lots of positives but the lack of assisted baskets and Catch and Shoot 3 attempts was very negative. The fear about Demarr was he would become an ISO scorer is an offense built on ball movement. I think we saw that last night and that needs to change.

if it doesn’t it will be a long season.

 

[iowamcnabb]

That matches my eye test. Allowing 24 wide-open threes is absolutely unsustainable, and if the T'Wolves hadn't basically bricked them the score wouldn't have been close.

We're already easily on our way to taking over the #1 slot in 3PT% allowed (not in a good way) this year after being the runner-up last year - since the T'Wolves should have shot at least 50% on those wide-open threes, we should have allowed at least 46% shooting.

I'm surprised that we shot 80% on free throws, because it didn't feel like it. DDR's 12-14 really helped on that count, but our other FT-line residents Fox+Domas going 70% on 10 combined attempts (last year: 72.1% on 10.8 combined attempts per game) was par for last year.

As they say, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

It's not exactly time to throw out the season based on one game, but if we can't manage to find some improvement in these obvious problem areas halfway through the season, I may have to start murmuring about Brown's tenure. I like Brown, I love that he finally got us to the playoffs last year, but it's his job to fix these obvious deficiencies. It is well past time to start seeing improvement here.

Just playing Devil’s advocate here, but percentage wise 85 percent of the Wolves three pointers were open or wide open. 89 percent of the Kings threes were. 48 percent of the the Wolves threes were wide open, 43 percent of the kings threes were wide open. Fairly comparable numbers and then when you factor in that Minny was the number one defense maybe it’s not quite as bad as it seems. I’d be curious to look at a much larger sample size to know for sure. Having said that, we do know that teams shoot too good of a percentage and it needs to be addressed it’s just not clear as to how. Teams with better rim protection can run guys off the line a bit and filter them in to a shot blocker but we don’t have that luxury

 

[The_Jamal]

I agree with this fully. Putting Kevin in with the starters doesn’t let Kevin do what he does well.

as for last night lots of positives but the lack of assisted baskets and Catch and Shoot 3 attempts was very negative. The fear about Demarr was he would become an ISO scorer is an offense built on ball movement. I think we saw that last night and that needs to change.

if it doesn’t it will be a long season.

I didn't see ISO ball at all from DDR. I thought the offensive movement honestly was as good as we've seen in a long time.

The shooting was bad, absolutely. I think that'll take time; again the basic principle of this team us ddr/fox/domas collapse the paint and let Keegan/huerter/Monk rip 3s with reckless abandon

 

[sactowndog]

I didn't see ISO ball at all from DDR. I thought the offensive movement honestly was as good as we've seen in a long time.

The shooting was bad, absolutely. I think that'll take time; again the basic principle of this team us ddr/fox/domas collapse the paint and let Keegan/huerter/Monk rip 3s with reckless abandon

if the shooting was bad but the attempts were there we would see more attempts and a lower percentage. That isn’t what we saw. We saw a total of 4 C&S attempts combined between Fox, Monk, Huerter and Ellis. DDR collapsed the paint but failed to get the ball out to shooters.

 

[The_Jamal]

if the shooting was bad but the attempts were there we would see more attempts and a lower percentage. That isn’t what we saw. We saw a total of 4 C&S attempts combined between Fox, Monk, Huerter and Ellis. DDR collapsed the paint but failed to get the ball out to shooters.

Because he was drawing a foul every time? 14 FTA is good, not bad?

And of course, it's not a polished machine yet. Why would that be the expectation? To me, the offensive design and upside this team is leagues ahead of where we were at last season, just needs fine-tuning and time to gel on the floor together. First quarter alone; Huerter kicks to Fox which he fumbles out of bounds (would have been a C&S btw). DDR throws a pass to a cutter the wrong direction. I also think we're probably talking about a win vs Minny here if Fox doesn't get hurt by DDV. Just wasn't the same after that and 0-4 in the 4th from him is far more an outlier than the expected norm.

Speculating here too, but i'd bet Minny is among the best in the league at limiting C&S threes with how good their perimeter defense is with Ant/McDaniels/DDV/NAW.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Just playing Devil’s advocate here, but percentage wise 85 percent of the Wolves three pointers were open or wide open. 89 percent of the Kings threes were. 48 percent of the the Wolves threes were wide open, 43 percent of the kings threes were wide open. Fairly comparable numbers and then when you factor in that Minny was the number one defense maybe it’s not quite as bad as it seems. I’d be curious to look at a much larger sample size to know for sure. Having said that, we do know that teams shoot too good of a percentage and it needs to be addressed it’s just not clear as to how. Teams with better rim protection can run guys off the line a bit and filter them in to a shot blocker but we don’t have that luxury

I don't think percentages are the best way to look at this. The T'Wolves took 86 shots in the game. 43 - that's exactly half of them! - were either open or wide-open threes...which outside of dunks are the highest value shot in the game. Half of the shots we allowed were incredibly high-value shots.

We can't sustain that and win. So we gotta fix it.

 

[fansinceday1]

Please be kind if this is a stupid question. I am not near the rabid kings fan I use to be so I don’t follow the team very closely.

Why is huerter still on the team? What does he contribute to the team? Seems like all I ever see him do is miss shots.

 

[sactowndog]

Because he was drawing a foul every time? 14 FTA is good, not bad?

And of course, it's not a polished machine yet. Why would that be the expectation? To me, the offensive design and upside this team is leagues ahead of where we were at last season, just needs fine-tuning and time to gel on the floor together. First quarter alone; Huerter kicks to Fox which he fumbles out of bounds (would have been a C&S btw). DDR throws a pass to a cutter the wrong direction. I also think we're probably talking about a win vs Minny here if Fox doesn't get hurt by DDV. Just wasn't the same after that and 0-4 in the 4th from him is far more an outlier than the expected norm.

Speculating here too, but i'd bet Minny is among the best in the league at limiting C&S threes with how good their perimeter defense is with Ant/McDaniels/DDV/NAW.

perhaps it is one game so we shall see. But 4 C&S attempts from all 4 of your guards will be losing basketball if it continues.

 

[The_Jamal]

perhaps it is one game so we shall see. But 4 C&S attempts from all 4 of your guards will be losing basketball if it continues.

No doubt. I think there was concentrated game plan to attack the rim from Fox and Monk especially. And Fox a bit hobbled didn't help his 4th.

Huerter up to full speed and Fox+Monk shoot their normal attempts will normalize those averages.

Good news is Keegan looks every part of taking a huge leap as a 2 way player and doesn't look shy pulling. I'd love to see that volume continue and him be a top 5 3PA guy this season.

And Domas just taking the wide open 3s is going to change defenses completely. Gobert just gave him those shots and he made them pay for it. Spacing isn't all about taking and making 3s, it's about what a defense is willing to give you. I bet we see AD play much further out on him after making 3 wide open 3s(and one in the corner!)

 

[sactowndog]

No doubt. I think there was concentrated game plan to attack the rim from Fox and Monk especially. And Fox a bit hobbled didn't help his 4th.

Huerter up to full speed and Fox+Monk shoot their normal attempts will normalize those averages.

Good news is Keegan looks every part of taking a huge leap as a 2 way player and doesn't look shy pulling. I'd love to see that volume continue and him be a top 5 3PA guy this season.

And Domas just taking the wide open 3s is going to change defenses completely. Gobert just gave him those shots and he made them pay for it. Spacing isn't all about taking and making 3s, it's about what a defense is willing to give you. I bet we see AD play much further out on him after making 3 wide open 3s(and one in the corner!)

I agree though Domas does have to make a reasonable percent or teams will invite him to shoot.

 

[Section 101]

Please be kind if this is a stupid question. I am not near the rabid kings fan I use to be so I don’t follow the team very closely.

Why is huerter still on the team? What does he contribute to the team? Seems like all I ever see him do is miss shots.

Simple answer. He's under contract and was hurt all off season.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Please be kind if this is a stupid question. I am not near the rabid kings fan I use to be so I don’t follow the team very closely.

Why is huerter still on the team? What does he contribute to the team? Seems like all I ever see him do is miss shots.

I’ll bite.

Huerter provides pretty solid height and length at the 2 spot which helps make up for his lack of quickness enabling him to get steals and deflections. Even though he can be a poor man defender his size can make him passable in a team defensive scheme. He is also still considered an above average floor spacer and does have the ability to get on a heater (3 threes in a row 4-5, that sorta thing). I also think he is a pretty decent ball handler who more times than not makes the right pass, moves the ball etc.

I know it’s pretty en vogue to trash on Kevin Huerter right now on this board, but you could do a lot worse at your starting 2. And I’m not even a huge Kevin guy, I see the merits of starting Keon and would probably prefer it if I’m being honest, but to say “he doesn’t belong” on the team is ludicrous.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I know it’s pretty en vogue to trash on Kevin Huerter right now on this board, but you could do a lot worse at your starting 2. And I’m not even a huge Kevin guy, I see the merits of starting Keon and would probably prefer it if I’m being honest, but to say “he doesn’t belong” on the team is ludicrous.

Huerter is currently the fifth-best player in the starting unit, but somebody has to be the fifth-best out of five. That doesn’t mean he’s not a good player - besides Monk, who comes a off the bench to provide a scoring punch, he’s arguably the best remaining player on the team…the Ellis of last year has an argument, Carter’s not playing yet, Lyles and Len are even more role-playery than Kevin.

No team is going to have nine superstars, so you need players like Kevin. But every fanbase also needs a scapegoat, so…

 

[fansinceday1]

I just remember huerter being in the 3 pt contest and completly embarrassing himself. Seems like he’s never been the guy the kings were hoping for.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I just remember huerter being in the 3 pt contest and completly embarrassing himself. Seems like he’s never been the guy the kings were hoping for.

It is true that he hasn't looked the same since that point. Had an inconsistent stretch run for the rest of that season, was ineffective in the 7 game playoff series, and then had a rough last season.

I have nothing against him and hope he gets it going, as it will be big for the team whether he stays or they find a trade for him. If he stays though, his fit with the current starters is not going to work for the team to become a contender.