Kings Vs. Suns Game Thread, 2/5, 7p.m. PST

[FaStRmAn]

He can also tell you that a certain Spaniard would have been the better choice for the team instead of that fat loser Evans as he will play like Steve Nash when Nash plays us every game.

WHAT???

 

[Tetsujin]

The coaches and front office ALWAYS deny shopping players. You can demand anything you like, but do you really need an explanation?

Didn't we deny we were trading Pedja and Webb 0only days before they were gone?

 

[AriesMar27]

WHAT???

i dont even know where he got the quote from, he searched through 17 pages of game thread discussions to find that one quote that has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

and i'm the troll around here...

 

[FaStRmAn]

Taking the hostile attitude away, I'll agree that the part I bolded is, in fact, the big question. It might end up that Martin doesn't fit into the future picture of this team. And if it turns out that way, I'll be sad for the simple reason he's a good kid, he's been a positive force in the community and he's worked very hard to get this far in the NBA.

The coaches and front office ALWAYS deny shopping players. You can demand anything you like, but do you really need an explanation?

What I find sad is that so many people seem to feel they have to be angry at Kevin over all this. You know, sometimes it's much more simple... S*** happens. Nobody's fault and no need to point particular fingers of blame.

I'm not angry at Kevin. I have never demanded he get traded or call him a bum, but he sure is playing very poorly. He is missing wide open shots. That is not a team chemistry issue, it is an individual player issue. I am beginning to think he is playing his way off the team whether he is trying to do that or not.

 

[VF21]

Didn't we deny we were trading Pedja and Webb 0only days before they were gone?

Yep.

 

[steelevt]

For those that still think that Martin helps this team win, please explain. I'm really trying to understand, RIGHT NOW, why he's a positive. I don't care what layup he hit against the spurs, or what 25 PPG seasons he's had on horrible teams, I would like to know at this very moment how he fits into the future plans to make this team win basketball games.

I understand what he does well, and what he doesn't do well. Right now, with his role on this team, he is not, I repeat: he is NOT going to help this team win basketball games. So for the coaches and management saying they are fine with him and aren't shopping him, I demand an explanation.

i dont know if martin can help this team win...but i don't think he is the sole reason why we are losing. those saying trade him for a good big man i have no problem with. its those who ignore that the team was struggling before he came back and blame him for everything. like its his fault our bigs cant stand up against other teams. we were a 17 win team last year, i didnt expect us to make the playoffs this year. i expected us to win more than 17 games and be competative. aside from a couple orlando games and tonight we played well for most of the games, im not all that disappointed. we are on pace to have a better season.

 

[Tetsujin]

Yep.

Then I think I smell a trade downwind. I just hope its a good one.

 

[Showtime]

The coaches and front office ALWAYS deny shopping players. You can demand anything you like, but do you really need an explanation?

Yes. It's not even that they deny shopping him, but that coach says there's absolutely nothing wrong, and keeps his minutes and starting position WITHOUT ANY ADJUSTMENT WHATSOEVER when he readily makes adjustments for other players (right now, it's Beno, before it was Hawes, etc). He was just on 1140 today saying he's not going to change the rotation with martin, and he said before he isn't going to consider making him a 6th man. So it's not just shopping him, it's the approach of being oblivious to what is going on. That, to me, is unacceptable.

What I find sad is that so many people seem to feel they have to be angry at Kevin over all this. You know, sometimes it's much more simple... S*** happens. Nobody's fault and no need to point particular fingers of blame.

I'm not angry AT Kevin. I'm angry at the entire situation. In fact, I don't recall directing any attack at Kevin personally.

 

[AriesMar27]

i dont think anyone is mad at kevin, i know that im not... im mad at petrie and westphal for having their heads buried in the sand...

 

[Showtime]

i dont know if martin can help this team win...but i don't think he is the sole reason why we are losing. those saying trade him for a good big man i have no problem with. its those who ignore that the team was struggling before he came back and blame him for everything.

I know they hit a bump in the road the weeks prior to his return, and I fully expected this team to be in the lottery. It's not that the team is just losing. It's how they are losing, and it's how Kevin has played and contributed, and how the coaching staff seems to totally ignore the problems with him specifically and seem to make adjustments for everybody else. I think they are 14-16 without him, and 2-17 with him.

like its his fault our bigs cant stand up against other teams.

When Hawes is getting pounded, he still finds ways to contribute. Some games he is a passing threat in the high post. Some games he hits a few big jumpers to spread the floor. Other games he steps up his shot blocking and rebounding. When Kevin isn't hitting shots, there is virtually NOTHING he does in other areas of the game as a positive contribution. He's a scorer, and when he's not doing that, he's a liability. So while he is not the only reason this team is lottery bound, he is one of the biggest things limiting this team in several areas and he impacts their play style which was responsible for keeping them in games and being entertaining. Without him, at least you could say they were winning at home and not getting blown out. Now both those are gone with him playing big minutes.

 

[rainmaker]

Yes. It's not even that they deny shopping him, but that coach says there's absolutely nothing wrong, and keeps his minutes and starting position WITHOUT ANY ADJUSTMENT WHATSOEVER when he readily makes adjustments for other players (right now, it's Beno, before it was Hawes, etc). He was just on 1140 today saying he's not going to change the rotation with martin, and he said before he isn't going to consider making him a 6th man. So it's not just shopping him, it's the approach of being oblivious to what is going on. That, to me, is unacceptable.


I'm not angry AT Kevin. I'm angry at the entire situation. In fact, I don't recall directing any attack at Kevin personally.

Westphal is not oblivious to what is going on out there. You may not agree with how he is handling the situation, but he sure as hell isn't oblivious to it.

Of course Petire is working the phones, he jsut hasn't called you and told you, nor should he. He also won't publicly throw one of our players under the bus. Nor should he. We have no idea what will happen at the deadline. Wait and see.

 

[Showtime]

Westphal is not oblivious to what is going on out there. You may not agree with how he is handling the situation, but he sure as hell isn't oblivious to it.

I disagree. He doesn't call out guys to the media, but he's at least been forthcoming with issues regarding OTHER guys on the team. Not only that, we've seen him ACT with adjustments with other guys on the team. But not with Kevin. Not only does he totally avoid commenting on his issues right now in the media, but he's not acting to adjust with him in the rotation. So if he can do those things with other guys, but not with Martin, then if he's not oblivious, then there's something else going on.

 

[VF21]

I'm not angry AT Kevin. I'm angry at the entire situation. In fact, I don't recall directing any attack at Kevin personally.

Fair enough.

I guess it's just a matter of how people react. I'm not so much angry as I am sad that things just aren't working out. Martin has to be feeling the pressure of the media, a lot of fans, etc. all seeming to focus their attention on him, and it's a shame.

 

[steelevt]

I know they hit a bump in the road the weeks prior to his return, and I fully expected this team to be in the lottery. It's not that the team is just losing. It's how they are losing, and it's how Kevin has played and contributed, and how the coaching staff seems to totally ignore the problems with him specifically and seem to make adjustments for everybody else. I think they are 14-16 without him, and 2-17 with him.



When Hawes is getting pounded, he still finds ways to contribute. Some games he is a passing threat in the high post. Some games he hits a few big jumpers to spread the floor. Other games he steps up his shot blocking and rebounding. When Kevin isn't hitting shots, there is virtually NOTHING he does in other areas of the game as a positive contribution. He's a scorer, and when he's not doing that, he's a liability. So while he is not the only reason this team is lottery bound, he is one of the biggest things limiting this team in several areas and he impacts their play style which was responsible for keeping them in games and being entertaining. Without him, at least you could say they were winning at home and not getting blown out. Now both those are gone with him playing big minutes.

everyone always brings up this stat. it is so deceiving. no one looks at the circumstances before kevin got healthy. the teams we won against were teams like minnesota, golden state, ny and nj. some of the wins were against teams who were struggling at the beginning of the season like chicago or memphis or against teams without their stars due to injury. how many of those teams were above .500 when we played them. all that contributed to the wins, not the absence of martin. now we are playing teams that know how to beat us. stop tyreke from driving. some thought kevin would come back and help. i was one of them. i was wrong. he didnt help. but he's not the sole reason we are losing. we are losing cuz we suck. if he isnt helping, trade him for someone who can help. but theres no need to boo him or blame him for everything. (i'm not saying you are doing all or any of this. it's a general statement to all i consider kevin haters )

 

[Showtime]

Martin has to be feeling the pressure of the media, a lot of fans, etc. all seeming to focus their attention on him, and it's a shame.

Then why not come off the bench? Play limited minutes in a lesser role where there isn't so much pressure? Both the coaches and Kevin don't seem to grasp that. But something about this whole situation rubs me the wrong way. It seems as if Kevin doesn't want to come off the bench and wants to be the #1 guy and prove to everybody he still is that guy.

 

[AriesMar27]

everyone always brings up this stat. it is so deceiving. no one looks at the circumstances before kevin got healthy. the teams we won against were teams like minnesota, golden state, ny and nj. some of the wins were against teams who were struggling at the beginning of the season like chicago or memphis or against teams without their stars due to injury. how many of those teams were above .500 when we played them. all that contributed to the wins, not the absence of martin. now we are playing teams that know how to beat us. stop tyreke from driving. some thought kevin would come back and help. i was one of them. i was wrong. he didnt help. but he's not the sole reason we are losing. we are losing cuz we suck. if he isnt helping, trade him for someone who can help. but theres no need to boo him or blame him for everything. (i'm not saying you are doing all or any of this. it's a general statement to all i consider kevin haters )

i tried to make that argument before... its not gonna work, i guess petrie isnt the only person with his head in the sand. some people around here still think its december....

 

[VF21]

Then why not come off the bench? Play limited minutes in a lesser role where there isn't so much pressure? Both the coaches and Kevin don't seem to grasp that. But something about this whole situation rubs me the wrong way. It seems as if Kevin doesn't want to come off the bench and wants to be the #1 guy and prove to everybody he still is that guy.

I don't think that's borne out by any kind of fact, rumor, etc. Kevin Martin doesn't decide the line-ups or allocate the minutes. Martin has for his entire career been a team player. I simply do not see him demanding major minutes, etc. It's not his characters.

Yes, there are a lot of things going on, and some I'm sure we'll never know about, but I don't think Martin is threatening Westphal and forcing him to put him in the starting lineup.

 

[Showtime]

everyone always brings up this stat. it is so deceiving. no one looks at the circumstances before kevin got healthy. the teams we won against were teams like minnesota, golden state, ny and nj. some of the wins were against teams who were struggling at the beginning of the season like chicago or memphis or against teams without their stars due to injury. how many of those teams were above .500 when we played them. all that contributed to the wins, not the absence of martin. now we are playing teams that know how to beat us. stop tyreke from driving. some thought kevin would come back and help. i was one of them. i was wrong. he didnt help. but he's not the sole reason we are losing. we are losing cuz we suck. if he isnt helping, trade him for someone who can help. but theres no need to boo him or blame him for everything. (i'm not saying you are doing all or any of this. it's a general statement to all i consider kevin haters )

Do you think that comeback at Chicago, or that road win in Utah, or those games with Cleveland and LA ever go to overtime if Kevin was in there for 35 minutes taking 15+ shots? No, because when he's on the floor, it's a different play style. I'm not saying the Kings are a playoff team without him. But they did play a brand of basketball that was more about ball movement, hustle, defense, and they were noticeably better with Beno and Evans playing the majority of the minutes in the backcourt.

JT and Spencer have had their ups and downs, and the frontline problems have existed all season long, but they were still finding ways to be competitive against the best teams and defend home court. I don't think suddenly the entire league "figured out" the kings. I just think when certain guys play, or don't play, the entire climate of the team changes.

 

[Showtime]

I don't think that's borne out by any kind of fact, rumor, etc. Kevin Martin doesn't decide the line-ups or allocate the minutes. Martin has for his entire career been a team player. I simply do not see him demanding major minutes, etc. It's not his characters.

I guess I just misremembered the rumors and comments including Martin about friction with Bibby, Artest, and Salmons because of touches.

 

[VF21]

I guess I just misremembered the rumors and comments including Martin about friction with Bibby, Artest, and Salmons because of touches.

Got links?

Kevin Martin isn't a forceful personality. He's pretty laid back, which is actually part of his problem. He's not aggressive enough on the court, and he tries way too hard to get his teammates involved.

IIRC, the issues with Salmons stemmed from Salmon's side, not Martin's. I don't recall anything about Bibby or Artest...

But that's not the point. I still don't see the need or reason to tear Martin down to strengthen the argument about the team playing differently when he's not there. (An argument I happen to agree with, BTW...)

His style hasn't meshed with what we - or at least some of us - were expecting. The team seemed to try a lot harder to get the job done when the top scorer wasn't on the court. Those are valid issues. Rumors about Martin not getting along with various team members no longer here just seems contraindicated to me.

 

[pshn80]

Tonight in the early part of the game when the Suns built up the lead steadily I hardly noticed right off because the Kings seemed to be playing well on offense, something they don't always do because of turnovers and missed shots. Tonight during that period the Suns just plain played well and didn't miss shots. I'm sure the Kings defense must have been helping them but I didn't even notice it. All of a sudden the Kings were 12, 15, 18 points behind. I missed the rest of the game. Sorry.

 

[steelevt]

Do you think that comeback at Chicago, or that road win in Utah, or those games with Cleveland and LA ever go to overtime if Kevin was in there for 35 minutes taking 15+ shots? No, because when he's on the floor, it's a different play style. I'm not saying the Kings are a playoff team without him. But they did play a brand of basketball that was more about ball movement, hustle, defense, and they were noticeably better with Beno and Evans playing the majority of the minutes in the backcourt.

who's to say that they wouldnt have even been down by that much in chi or maybe have won the games against cleveland or la with the "old healthy kevin" no one knows for sure. with the kevin in this funk coming off an injury, we probably wouldnt have come close, but no one know for sure. i would have bet money that we would have gotten blown out by the nuggets on the road without tyreke evans yet we took them to the wire.

on the other post about kevin coming off the bench. i have a feeling some people would still blame him for everything that goes wrong while hes on the court whether he starts or comes off the bench. they just want him gone no matter what. if he can contribute at all whether starting or off the bench im all for it. if he cant help we need to find people who can and if it costs us kevin, so be it.

 

[swisshh]

there is massive quote tag failure in this thread

 

[Rockmeister]

there is massive quote tag failure in this thread

Yep, and it was kind of annoying too.

 

[steelevt]

thanks VF21 for "cleaning up" my post. had to do something and didnt get a chance to fix the post

 

[Slohoop]

Trade queens for kings please!

 

[BMiller52]

who's to say that they wouldnt have even been down by that much in chi or maybe have won the games against cleveland or la with the "old healthy kevin" no one knows for sure. with the kevin in this funk coming off an injury, we probably wouldnt have come close, but no one know for sure. i would have bet money that we would have gotten blown out by the nuggets on the road without tyreke evans yet we took them to the wire.

on the other post about kevin coming off the bench. i have a feeling some people would still blame him for everything that goes wrong while hes on the court whether he starts or comes off the bench. they just want him gone no matter what. if he can contribute at all whether starting or off the bench im all for it. if he cant help we need to find people who can and if it costs us kevin, so be it.

Okay, for the most part I was in Kevin's corner until tonight. I made excuses for him just like the rest of you, and I was wrong to do that. I was at the game, and he played like garbage. We got it to like 10 points, which is very workable, without him. Then Westphal goes and puts him back in the rest of the 3rd, and they wind up with a 30 point lead. He doesn't play defense, he doesn't pass the ball well, he played like garbage. And the team looks so much better when Reke has the ball, or Beno's on the court, than when we're trying to fit Kevin in. He doesn't work with this line up, he didn't when he was healthy either, the team is like 3-11 with him, and we were 14-17 without him. It's not a coincidence. Just get over it and trade him already, I'm getting sick of him fast.

Horrible game to go to btw, sat by some old jerk of a Suns fan who kept yelling out annoying trash like he was the coach of the suns. "TAKE HIM!!!!!!!" Hope that guy gets hit by a bus.

 

[Bricklayer]

everyone always brings up this stat. it is so deceiving. no one looks at the circumstances before kevin got healthy. the teams we won against were teams like minnesota, golden state, ny and nj. some of the wins were against teams who were struggling at the beginning of the season like chicago or memphis or against teams without their stars due to injury. how many of those teams were above .500 when we played them. all that contributed to the wins, not the absence of martin. now we are playing teams that know how to beat us. stop tyreke from driving. some thought kevin would come back and help. i was one of them. i was wrong. he didnt help. but he's not the sole reason we are losing. we are losing cuz we suck. if he isnt helping, trade him for someone who can help. but theres no need to boo him or blame him for everything. (i'm not saying you are doing all or any of this. it's a general statement to all i consider kevin haters )

that's the normal straw man argument again, and its not a strong one to anyone who watched the games. Winning/losing? Big whoop -- just an indicator. Playing with passion and scrap? No comparison.

And as an aside, nobody is stopping Tyreke from driving. He's the one player who has come through this mess relatively unscathed. Physically beat up, but doing his thing.

 

[steelevt]

that's the normal straw man argument again, and its not a strong one to anyone who watched the games. Winning/losing? Big whoop -- just an indicator. Playing with passion and scrap? No comparison.

And as an aside, nobody is stopping Tyreke from driving. He's the one player who has come through this mess relatively unscathed. Physically beat up, but doing his thing.

so are you saying that bringing up the record with vs without martin is useless than? because ive seen that argument tossed around in almost every thread by someone wanting to blame kevin. thats what im getting tired of. now some have pointed out kevins passion and not hustling. if he's not even trying than thats a good reason to bench or trade him.

and about tyreke, you're right he still can get to the rim. but the more they focus on him (ie. double teams, clogging up the lane) it is getting harder for him to get there at will. if he cant drive, he will settle on long jumpers, which will lead to us struggling until he develops his shot or has more reliable teammates he trusts to pass it to. recently he hasnt and we've struggled. dont get me wrong, im in no way saying hes the reason we're struggling. hes the only thing we have going for us. but i've seen some games where teams are focusing more on him and he has struggled

 

[FaStRmAn]

Okay, for the most part I was in Kevin's corner until tonight. I made excuses for him just like the rest of you, and I was wrong to do that. I was at the game, and he played like garbage. We got it to like 10 points, which is very workable, without him. Then Westphal goes and puts him back in the rest of the 3rd, and they wind up with a 30 point lead. He doesn't play defense, he doesn't pass the ball well, he played like garbage. And the team looks so much better when Reke has the ball, or Beno's on the court, than when we're trying to fit Kevin in. He doesn't work with this line up, he didn't when he was healthy either, the team is like 3-11 with him, and we were 14-17 without him. It's not a coincidence. Just get over it and trade him already, I'm getting sick of him fast.

Horrible game to go to btw, sat by some old jerk of a Suns fan who kept yelling out annoying trash like he was the coach of the suns. "TAKE HIM!!!!!!!" Hope that guy gets hit by a bus.

LOL That is funny !! I Hate the Coaching Fan!