Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
The crazy thing is Murray is older than Fox lol
[Game] Kings vs. Spurs, 12/19/2021 3pm Pacific 6pm Eastern
- Thread starter Tetsujin
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iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Wow, just got done watching the replay. Hali with maybe his best game ever? The game we thought he was capable of. Metu had maybe the best half of his career? His final box score isn't that impressive but I really liked what he brought early in the game. Several steals and deflections and didn't just settle for threes. He has really improved over the last 7-8 games and looks like has a future as a rotational piece if he keeps it up. Damian Jones with a career game or right up there. That was fun to watch.
Also, I can't believe Buddy had 29 points. I knew before watching the game he was the leading scorer but I kept wondering when he was going off considering he barely had any points until the end.
Also, I can't believe Buddy had 29 points. I knew before watching the game he was the leading scorer but I kept wondering when he was going off considering he barely had any points until the end.
Groovygreg
Starter
Success by this current Kings squad is achieved only by scrappy team play - Everybody hustles, fights, defends, and plays team basketball. There is no “star” that is going to propel this mediocre bunch to victory.
SLAB
Hall of Famer
Imagine having a meddling owner and for the first time he decides to step away and not meddle, it’s to give Vlade full control to draft the guy who isn’t Luka Doncic. Smh
kb02
All-Star
Yea, the Kings really lack a front court connector. TT has had a few high post bounce passes to cutters the last few games. I was shocked the first time it happened. Haven’t seen that since Giles.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
I think that’s a function of Holmes playing the role asked of him.
I do think it would be good to have a center or back up that could get a bucket
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
It was?
SLAB
Hall of Famer
By all accounts I’ve heard it’s he wanted Luka but for this one decision decided to step back and give ultimate faith in Vlade for some ungodly reason.
I think Doug would benefit from a full year as an assistant, under Gentry. We aren't going anywhere this year and should be getting some roster shake-ups soon. It will be messy with covid playing into things. Let Gentry earn his money while we set the team up for next year and beyond.
krylia sovetov
Bench
my great point is - de'aaron is too selfish and too predictable for a guy who wants ball constantly in his hands, PG or SG...
how he's gonna pan out as a SG is yet to be seen, 25-30 games sample is too small for a NBA standards. my comments was pointing at fox the PG in previous 4 seasons. and in those 4 seasons we didn't had a ball flow and we didn't played smart basketball.
now, i didn't saw his improvement since his second season. ok, he started shooting 3's, maybe he'll have improve % over the years, so far he's a streaky shooter at best. but I expected some midrange floater so that he exploit that freakish athleticism.
relying on athleticism is not good enough, even giannis developed midrange semi hook/floater shot togheter with FT's and we all know how that story ended.
freakish athleticism will fade away sooner or later. high IQ stays forever.
and I would like to see him somewhere else, just to be sure is it kangs fault or his own.
so, at the end of a balad, the keys should go to hali.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
He's literally been one of the best mid-range players in the league since we finally canned Walton. Pretty much the only place where he isn't scoring at an elite rate right now is behind the arc but he's scoring so efficiently inside it that he'd have to be Steph from the three to be more efficient than he is from two-point range.
The four seasons comment thing is interesting because
3 years back, we had the winningest season in years playing a style that took advantage of Fox's ability as both a scorer and creator only for Joerger to torpedo it because he was still in his feelings about Brandon Williams.
The last two years, Vlade hired his best friend Luke to coach the team, saddling the franchise with a coach completely incapable of coaching an uptempo style and temperamentally mismatched with a younger roster/team that wasn't the 2016 Warriors. In the brief moments where Luke managed to get out of his team's way, Fox exploded, was one of the best clutch scorers in the league, and averaged 25/7 last year, which is the best statline put up by a non-Boogie King in the last fifteen seasons.
This season, we had more of the Luke dysfunction to start the year and saw a genuinely disinterested/unmotivated Fox for the first month or so of the year. The second we dumped Luke though, Fox's production has shot back up and he's largely become a more efficient version of the scorer we saw last season.
None of this is to say that Fox needs to be the "point guard" of this roster or whatever asinine point it is you think I'm trying to make. My larger point is that this team that has constantly been in need of talent probably doesn't need to be getting rid of its most talented player to build around a solid complimentary player who to this point hasn't really shown anything that would indicate he's capable of being a number one option.
I'm not even saying Fox is a number one option either but trading him for someone who isn't or for a package that wouldn't include some avenue to us acquiring one (be it through tank or unprotected draft pick) is probably going to hurt this franchise more than help it.
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krylia sovetov
Bench
post walton sample is still too small.. let's wait and see
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
We've almost played as many games this season without Walton as with him.
EIM86
Starter
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Puke Walton for shortIt’s Bill Waltons Son around here newbie
kb02
All-Star
Good. Build up those stats n trade him for elite talent.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Chew on this when you are assessing Fox: https://www.nbaanalysis.net/2021/12/18/nba-news-sacramento-kings-need-more-deaaron-fox/
It does seem to support my biggest beef with his game - defensive inadequacy.
It does seem to support my biggest beef with his game - defensive inadequacy.
kb02
All-Star
Good read. Thanks for sharing. The data that the article cites is on par with the eye test the last few years and the win loss record.
Faster pace = more offensive stats. That looks great for the players. But it also is coupled with historically low defensive efficiency and more losses than wins.
I haven't said this, because I know it'll get sh*tted on, but if the Kings want to win with Fox, move him to the microwave, all offense, no defense, 1000x miles per hour role. Basically a modern day Leandro Barbosa.
I believe BW was also all in on Bagley which is what caused the huge rift with Joerger and BW.
kb02
All-Star
I'm not going to go hunt for the articles, but basically the story was:
Brandon Williams was all for Bagley.
Vlade wasn't sure Fox and Luka would work--seeing how Fox and Hali isn't working, he was probably right, but should've still picked Luka and then traded Fox.
Aneel wanted Luka, which became a big issue when Vlade was fired.
Vivek wanted Luka, but was hands off.
Joeger wanted Luka.
Yes - that is my understanding as well. Although I imagine there had to be one other voice in the pro-Bagley camp to get as far as it did. Also I think some of Vlade's concerns were about the family/satisfaction in the market. I think that wasn't 100% unfounded but we'll see how it plays out in Dallas. If he winds up asking out of Dallas I have no doubt the same would have happened here.
but obviously should have picked him, just based on what the freakin fans wanted. You can't blow the pick if you go with the fans' choice. Portland wanted Oden and quickly moved on.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Which shouldn't have caused a rift or anything. Joerger was the coach. Vlade was the GM. Stay in your lane. If Vlade asked your opinion, give it and move on. If Joerger wanted the GM job, he should have applied.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I sure like to see what Christie as HC could do with Fox's defense after a couple of weeks. My Christmas wish is for Gentry take it easy at home for a month, have Fox come back at the end of this week, and then let the Christie-Fox experiment yield some final results. At this point we've seen the Gentry-Fox experiment. It doesn't work, imo. We need the control Christie-Fox experiment to come to some final determination on Fox.
I think the rift more than likely went much deeper than a draft pick disagreement. I have a feeling there was some meddling and undermining of Joerger by BW that caused the rift. A disagreement of opinion with two guys who can't make the draft pick themselves doesn't really rock the boat but it could if BW was going behind Joerger's back and talking to players or undermining his opinions with Vlade.
The rift was actually started by BW demanding Bagley get more minutes, start, etc while Joerger was trying to win and make the playoffs. BW began leaking to the media and Joerger fired back.
It is my personal belief that when the rift went public it was clear both were going to lose their jobs, and Joerger threw his hands up and tanked the team including that final game in Portland that he pulled all starters from at the half and cost us the 40 win moral victory achievement.
I'd say that BW's leaks and this whole thing are what doomed Bagley in Sac even before the injuries. Sent the message to the camp that they were more important than the coach.
see my reply to Livinthedream above - it was BW calling out Joerger through leaks to start Bagley and show him off where it all went south. Totally derailed a promising season.
kb02
All-Star
Even if Christie was able to get Fox to be an average defender, the Kings would still need Fox to slow his pace down. A decent amount of the team's defensive issues is missed shots leads to easy transition buckets the other way.
Joeger adopted the 1,000x miles per hour style, because Fox couldn't play any other way. Long term, that has hurt his development and the Kings. And I don't think he slows his style down until he loses a step. To his credit, he's made more of a concerted effort to share the ball on offense and to be more active on defense (usually help side; going for picks near the baseline). On offense, he's passed a bit more to his left hand on drives (it's always to his dominant side; defenses collapses harder off his weak side, because they know he won't pass it to that side) and he's tried to play the pick and roll game some. But those Hali drives and then passes back to the perimeter or across the court to the weak side are just not there for Fox right now (vision and wiring) and may never be there.
Yeah the leak thing is ringing some bells now.
Honestly I don't think it had anything to do with the season going south though. Shumpert fell off a cliff after his hot start and things fell off quickly once he got traded but the Kings started losing when Shump went cold. Bjelica also started out that season with some of the best advanced stats in the league and then kind of flat lined halfway through. He was still solid but didn't stay among the league leaders.
They had a good thing going but it seems as if they were playing above their heads. Shump and Bjelica were certainly playing above their heads and from what we've seen, Buddy, WCS and Bagley had career years. Barnes has always been consistent since then. Fox and Bogdan are the only significant players that have had better years since that 2018-19 season. I don't know if it was just a coincidence or credit to Joerger but I just can't blame the fall off on the behind the scenes drama.
Like I said it's personal believe mostly, but I think Joerger knew he was toast and stopped caring/trying to win ultimately deliberately losing the last one.
Maybe I'm wrong. It seemed we were fine until the Shump trade and Barnes came in. Joerger really struggled to integrate Barnes while it should have been an easy fit how the team was playing. Really we should have kept Shump though.
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