[Game] Kings vs. Magic [Vegas Summer League] 7/9/2022 1pm Pacific, 4pm Eastern (ESPN)

[NiNetNiNe]

No one was saying he would be a bust. High floor, low ceiling. No face up game. Horford, Barnes, Harris. 4/3. The issue has abd always will be squeezing value from that 4th pick.

I get the value argument. There are many ways this draft could of gone and I would of been fine, value being one of them. The one's that bug me are the people absolutely think we should of picked someone like Ivey and keep downplaying Murray and how well he has been showing out in Summer League. Not saying that is you, but there are a few that seem to think this way.

My preference was: Murray(outside of Banchero, or Chet dropping), trade down, Ivey.

 

[midtowner]

I get the value argument. I just don’t think it’s a good argument. And I tilted Ivey in the draft.

Keegan cannot self create in the half court as an almost 22-year old rookie (his handle in transition is actually pretty nice). But here’s the thing - if he’s legitimately a very good or becomes an elite shooter at 6’8” - he doesn’t really have to take a huge leap with his handle to create looks for himself. By his second season - because he’s a reported hard worker - he’ll probably have a hesitation dribble move and a step back move. Those two moves, plus the threat of the shot of the catch and posting up smalls will get him plenty of looks in the half court.

I think he moves the ball well too, and make the right passes in the half court (but he’s not a point forward). He also doesn’t look like a rim protector. But a strong 6’8” dude in the right place can do a lot for one’s defense. Also - even though I’d also like to see quicker feet on the perimeter - his ability to recover and bother shots on the perimeter is surprising. And Keegan studies game film and remembers tendencies. Once he gets used to the League - he’s going to take away what the offense player most wants to do.

At this point - he has absolutely flashed value for being the 4th pick in this draft - and his ceiling is really high if one values offensive efficiency, BBIQ and defensive flexibility.

 

[NiNetNiNe]

I get the value argument. I just don’t think it’s a good argument. And I tilted Ivey in the draft.

Keegan cannot self create in the half court as an almost 22-year old rookie (his handle in transition is actually pretty nice). But here’s the thing - if he’s legitimately a very good or becomes an elite shooter at 6’8” - he doesn’t really have to take a huge leap with his handle to create looks for himself. By his second season - because he’s a reported hard worker - he’ll probably have a hesitation dribble move and a step back move. Those two moves, plus the threat of the shot of the catch and posting up smalls will get him plenty of looks in the half court.

I think he moves the ball well too, and make the right passes in the half court (but he’s not a point forward). He also doesn’t look like a rim protector. But a strong 6’8” dude in the right place can do a lot for one’s defense. Also - even though I’d also like to see quicker feet on the perimeter - his ability to recover and bother shots on the perimeter is surprising. And Keegan studies game film and remembers tendencies. Once he gets used to the League - he’s going to take away what the offense player most wants to do.

At this point - he has absolutely flashed value for being the 4th pick in this draft - and his ceiling is really high if one values offensive efficiency, BBIQ and defensive flexibility.

I can agree with most of this. I do think there is some value to the idea that A + B > C, but value is subjective, and it's a forward heavy league. We had the chance for one of the best scoring forwards in college, who had a historic season, with a very high bbiq, and plays at a spot we had a giant hole at. So I think we should of absolutely picked Murray, and glad that we did.

Picking up good guards, we just got two good ones, is far easier than picking up a great forward. I feel Monte made the right call, his second round usage is a bit suspect, but I can't pretend to know his thought process.

 

[kb02]

I can agree with most of this. I do think there is some value to the idea that A + B > C, but value is subjective, and it's a forward heavy league. We had the chance for one of the best scoring forwards in college, who had a historic season, with a very high bbiq, and plays at a spot we had a giant hole at. So I think we should of absolutely picked Murray, and glad that we did.

Picking up good guards, we just got two good ones, is far easier than picking up a great forward. I feel Monte made the right call, his second round usage is a bit suspect, but I can't pretend to know his thought process.

Prior to the draft, I would’ve taken Daniels ahead of Murray or Ivey. And there were guys like Mathurin, Jalen Williams, Sochan, and Dieng that i would’ve loved to grab with a second pick. Dieng more for the long term lotto tix than the others.

I still would do that today, in a trade down scenario (or scenarios), but would take Williams before Daniels. Both are going to be two way studs. Daniels flashing elite offensive rebounding while Williams already looks like a modern day version of Ron Ron on the defensive perimeter. Eason would slide up into that group of dudes, who I would’ve grabbed. There’s more upside there and I would give it 50/50 odds that he ends up better than Smith jr. Houston’s version of IT and Freddette where the later pick out performs the earlier selection.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Despite the ineptitude of past FOs, this is an ownership group that is unwilling to throw away 3-4 more seasons on drafting highest upside (arguably the same stupid move that cost us LUKA by going for the guy with things you can't teach instead FFS) and hoping you strikeout less than you hit homeruns. We got a can't miss guy with size and an elite skillset who maybe only projects to be the second or third option. Boo frickin hoo.

 

[sactowndog]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1545868548567773184

this is the Neemias Queta experience in a nutshell:
-Switches onto Paolo seemingly by accident, flusters him into a bad turnover.
-Thunders down the court like the giant man he is.
-Picks off a pass clearly meant for Keegan that he happened to grab because he was running out of position.
-Finishes the play with a Embiid-esque unguardable drive.

Dude made a couple of impressive plays while also failing to do a bunch of the basic things you’d kinda hope he would know how to do at this point. Not sure he’s even a rotation-level player yet but there’s definitely something there.

Yeah the dude has quick feet for his size. Might be quicker than Murray’s. His ability to stay in front of Banchero multiple times at his size was impressive.

 

[sactowndog]

As long as he never dribbles in the half court again Murray will be a elite "stretch 4", he's that kind of role player who can fit in every system.

isn’t that assuming he never adds to his game as a rookie. But yeah he has to improve his handles.

 

[sactowndog]

I can agree with most of this. I do think there is some value to the idea that A + B > C, but value is subjective, and it's a forward heavy league. We had the chance for one of the best scoring forwards in college, who had a historic season, with a very high bbiq, and plays at a spot we had a giant hole at. So I think we should of absolutely picked Murray, and glad that we did.

Picking up good guards, we just got two good ones, is far easier than picking up a great forward. I feel Monte made the right call, his second round usage is a bit suspect, but I can't pretend to know his thought process.

Yeah I am good with this pick also. Assuming you are going to keep Fox, the team will be better with Fox and Murray than Fox and Ivey even though Ivey has also looked great.

Murray’s lack of a face up game and ability to blow by people is an issue as is the couple times Banchero blew by him. With tighter handles which I think he can get, that will get better.

 

[The_Jamal]

Yeah I am good with this pick also. Assuming you are going to keep Fox, the team will be better with Fox and Murray than Fox and Ivey even though Ivey has also looked great.

Murray’s lack of a face up game and ability to blow by people is an issue as is the couple times Banchero blew by him. With tighter handles which I think he can get, that will get better.

But he also really shut down Banchero on a few possessions as well. It's been a pretty common theme with his defense throughout SL; it either looks awesome and he shuts the play down, or he gets blown by. Not sure what it is, maybe something with his defensive footwork, but it's good to see the flashes defensively on the perimeter. I do think he's been a +defender this summer.

 

[ESP47]

Has an on ball screen been set for Keegan even once this summer?

 

[Woot!]

No one was saying he would be a bust. High floor, low ceiling. No face up game. Horford, Barnes, Harris. 4/3. The issue has abd always will be squeezing value from that 4th pick.

Many of us - including Monte and the Kings braintrust, most important - completely disagree with your "low ceiling" assessment and therefore with your take on how to derive the most value from the pick.

 

[TaxMan]

isn’t that assuming he never adds to his game as a rookie. But yeah he has to improve his handles.

Impossible. He’s almost 22

 

[TaxMan]

Many of us - including Monte and the Kings braintrust, most important - completely disagree with your "low ceiling" assessment and therefore with your take on how to derive the most value from the pick.

The low ceiling statement gets thrown around like it’s an actual measurable statistic. In reality, it’s talent evaluator’s label to encapsulate an overall subjective assessment of a player. Nothing more than an opinion.

 

[kb02]

Many of us - including Monte and the Kings braintrust, most important - completely disagree with your "low ceiling" assessment and therefore with your take on how to derive the most value from the pick.

Singles are totally okay for some people.

 

[Spike]

isn’t that assuming he never adds to his game as a rookie. But yeah he has to improve his handles.

I don't understand this logic. Other players seem to be able to add elements to their game, but our high IQ player won't? It's reasonable to assume that he can. I also think he will have quite a few up and down games, but I'm willing to ride the overall growth.

Murray being the second or third option will actually help him in the long run. He won't be expected to bail us out, and can make the smart play. It's actually kind of the way the Spurs bring along the young players. They aren't expected to bear the load right away, and end up being great. I know we're not the Spurs, but if we're looking at an example of how a small market does it, bringing along rookies with complementary vets until they are ready to produce seems to be a good cycle. It's not the only way to do it, but it's a successful way. If we hold to this, I believe Murray will be successful sooner rather than later.

 

[kb02]

But he also really shut down Banchero on a few possessions as well. It's been a pretty common theme with his defense throughout SL; it either looks awesome and he shuts the play down, or he gets blown by. Not sure what it is, maybe something with his defensive footwork, but it's good to see the flashes defensively on the perimeter. I do think he's been a +defender this summer.

Just Murray reading Banchero’s tendencies. Learning n adjusting is a skill.

Banchero needs a bit more pop on his drives or more add more finesse/craft to his finish. Unless you’re Russ, players usually don‘t jump levels athletically. So he’ll likely need to fix it by increasing his finesse/craft.

 

[Kingster]

I’m not disagreeing with you on the last part. He will become the focal point no doubt about that. I just don’t see him wheeling and dealing on the fly like Magic. Several times today he just drove, tried to spin and lost it. Couple of times threw it out of bounds and other times straight at the defender. Doncic has elite passing ability but even more so an elite understanding of what to do and when.

Agreed. On the other hand, Banchero is a better shooter and defender, but then not as good of a rebounder as Magic. When all is said and done, Banchero is going to be extremely good.

 

[Kingster]

Has an on ball screen been set for Keegan even once this summer?

Yes. There was one I recall in this game and Murray buried the shot. I'm looking forward to the regular season when we see a lot more of that.

 

[Kingster]

I know it’s a stupid comparison, but when I saw that replay it looked like something Klay Thompson has done to us a million times. The quick square up, then pump fake, then calmly sinks the dagger.

It's not dumb at all. We'll probably see some of the same sets run for Murray in the regular season that GS runs for Klay.