[Game] Kings vs Heat, 1/2/2022 3pm PT/6pm ET
- Thread starter Capt. Factorial
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Fox was #10 in FTA in the NBA last year at 7.2/gm, ahead of Luka, ahead of KD, ahead of Booker etc. This year despite being a "down" year, he's averaging 5.6FTA, #14 in the league ahead of Luka, Lebron, Westbrook, Paul George, Curry etc. This idea that he's somehow not given the respect he deserves by the refs is utterly ridiculous and is just another excuse in the pile of excuses for when he doesn't play well.
If you're colored surprised it's only because you have massive purple-tinted Fox glasses on and you expect him to average 30FTs a game or something.
If you're colored surprised it's only because you have massive purple-tinted Fox glasses on and you expect him to average 30FTs a game or something.
You wouldn't know if from this game, but Fox clearly doesn't get his share of calls. I think it's because he's so quick. Either the refs don't register some of the fouls when they're happening, or he looks out of control in their "real time," and they don't want to reward that.
And I'm not even a Fox fan, so don't throw that lame reasoning at me.
And I'm not even a Fox fan, so don't throw that lame reasoning at me.
The implication of your argument vs the stats suggest either:
1. Fox is extremely elite at drawing fouls - so elite that he should belong in the class of the likes of Shaq, Wilt etc and average >10 FTA/gm but isn't because the refs are missing calls.
2. Fox doesn't get his "share of calls", but neither does practically every other player in the league so his relative ranking and FTA is about where you'd expect
Which is it?
1. Fox is extremely elite at drawing fouls - so elite that he should belong in the class of the likes of Shaq, Wilt etc and average >10 FTA/gm but isn't because the refs are missing calls.
2. Fox doesn't get his "share of calls", but neither does practically every other player in the league so his relative ranking and FTA is about where you'd expect
Which is it?
Is it just me or it seems like the Kings miss Len wide open in the pain several times in recent games? 2 shot attempts in 17 minutes for the biggest guy on the court vs a team going small is low IQ basketball. Sure they got away with it and won but they need to be more aware of easy alley oops to Len in the paint. For example look at his 2nd shot attempt - it only comes after Mitchell completely ignores Len for an easy almost oop if he hesitated a split second longer. Instead he passes out to Metu for a 3 not even glancing Len’s way. Len gets the ball back with less space than he originally had but still finishes. Severely underutilizing Len, as after this point he didn’t attempt another shot. No one was there to contest his shots in this game too! The offense should have run through Len, Miami would have doubled him every time. This is a common theme for the Kings - they don’t take advantage of mismatches.
they’ve got to look for the roll man more on pick and rolls, c’mon. A Len paint touch is way more efficient than a long 2’ or contested 3. Also opens up court more.
play - https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?C...eamID=1610612758&flag=3&sct=plot§ion=game
they’ve got to look for the roll man more on pick and rolls, c’mon. A Len paint touch is way more efficient than a long 2’ or contested 3. Also opens up court more.
play - https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?C...eamID=1610612758&flag=3&sct=plot§ion=game
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Fox initiates contact most of the time. He gets the calls when the defenders hack his arm, or weren't in legal guarding position to begin with. What happens a lot when he doesn't get the call is he initiates contact, runs into a defender (or two), and then falls to the ground. From a Kings fan perspective, or from our horrible television personnel, this always looks like a foul but it's not.
Mac makes a great point.....he's among the top in FTA per game this year and last, yet here we are still crying about how he "doesn't get calls."
Mac makes a great point.....he's among the top in FTA per game this year and last, yet here we are still crying about how he "doesn't get calls."
Some of the players your are comparing him to are differently kind of players. Of course jump shooters are going to avg less fta than fox. His game is built on speed and getting to the basket. Even the biggest fox fans are going to admit he’s a poor 3 pt shooter and his game isn’t running off curls or standing around for feet set jump shots. That why everyone was making a big deal about his % at the rim. That’s his game. I haven’t looked closely to the stats but maybe compare him to the likes Giannis, derozen etc. Even harden and Westbrook are better comparisons but their loads are smaller now joining teams with lebron/ad and KD.
Regardless, top 10 is top 10. Why would you presume that he should get as many attempts as a superstar mvp caliber player like Giannis in search of evidence that he doesn't get his fair share of calls? If you start with that presumption there is no way to get a fair conclusion. That's putting the cart before the horse. There would be no data that could prove otherwise.
Edit: just for reference Giannis was #2 last year (reg season) at 9.5/gm, vs Fox 7.2. Zion and Trae at 8.7. Jimmy Butler at 8.0. Harden 7.3. Westbrook 6.4. Julius Randle 6.0. Ja 5.9. Lebron 5.7.
FWIW as well, drives per game (along with FTA) - rounded for convenience of typing:
1. SGA 25/ 6.5
2. Doncic 20/ 7.1
3. Trae 20/ 8.7
4. Fox 18/ 7.2
5. Morant 18/ 5.9
6. Derozan 18/ 7.2
7. Westbrook 18/ 6.4
8. Harden 17/ 7.3
While not proving anything 100%, these numbers suggest to me that Fox is in no way exceptionally not getting calls. I say "exceptionally" because while we might see lots of calls missed on Fox, if other players are similarly treated then you cannot say that he is being unfairly treated - it just means that refs miss calls on everyone.
I'd love to see data that conclusively suggests otherwise.
Edit: just for reference Giannis was #2 last year (reg season) at 9.5/gm, vs Fox 7.2. Zion and Trae at 8.7. Jimmy Butler at 8.0. Harden 7.3. Westbrook 6.4. Julius Randle 6.0. Ja 5.9. Lebron 5.7.
FWIW as well, drives per game (along with FTA) - rounded for convenience of typing:
1. SGA 25/ 6.5
2. Doncic 20/ 7.1
3. Trae 20/ 8.7
4. Fox 18/ 7.2
5. Morant 18/ 5.9
6. Derozan 18/ 7.2
7. Westbrook 18/ 6.4
8. Harden 17/ 7.3
While not proving anything 100%, these numbers suggest to me that Fox is in no way exceptionally not getting calls. I say "exceptionally" because while we might see lots of calls missed on Fox, if other players are similarly treated then you cannot say that he is being unfairly treated - it just means that refs miss calls on everyone.
I'd love to see data that conclusively suggests otherwise.
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I wasn’t saying he should get superstar calls like giannis, but their games are more similar so that would be a better comparison to players like steph or booker. And you have to compare fox to other teams best players because generally they are getting most of the attempts. Plus I was never one to believe superstars should get superstar calls or end of the game fouls/playoff fouls should be called differently. A foul is a foul.
I’m curious why Len can’t be the starter? I believes he’s misused drastically right now. They barely give him the ball on offense even when he’s open and you’d be hard pressed to find a better defender from the 5 position outside of a select few guys in the league.
The Wizards used Len very successfully last year as a pick and roll threat, meanwhile the Kings barely utilize this part of Len’s game. They may run it 1 time & Len scores, then never go back to it. It’s mind boggling. There’s no available center out there who is a clear upgrade over what Len can do. The only difference from guys like Nurkic, Adams, Valancunis, Vucivec and Len is playing time. Len is better in some aspects than those guys, and they have some advantages over Len. It’s mainly group think that leads people to think Len is a “reserve” while those guys are “starters”. I would argue when you actually analyze their games Len is the best of all of them actually. You put any of those guys in this Kings offense of guards ball hogging all game they won’t score either and they’re all obvious worse defenders than Len perhaps w/ the exception of Adams.
Seriously what are the things Len does NOT do that prevent him from starting? Or in other words, what do you want a hypothetical 5' man to do in the Kings offensive/defensive scheme?
The Wizards used Len very successfully last year as a pick and roll threat, meanwhile the Kings barely utilize this part of Len’s game. They may run it 1 time & Len scores, then never go back to it. It’s mind boggling. There’s no available center out there who is a clear upgrade over what Len can do. The only difference from guys like Nurkic, Adams, Valancunis, Vucivec and Len is playing time. Len is better in some aspects than those guys, and they have some advantages over Len. It’s mainly group think that leads people to think Len is a “reserve” while those guys are “starters”. I would argue when you actually analyze their games Len is the best of all of them actually. You put any of those guys in this Kings offense of guards ball hogging all game they won’t score either and they’re all obvious worse defenders than Len perhaps w/ the exception of Adams.
Seriously what are the things Len does NOT do that prevent him from starting? Or in other words, what do you want a hypothetical 5' man to do in the Kings offensive/defensive scheme?
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Seriously? His foul rate is a big reason. I would say his quickness on D/inability to step out on PnR coverage would be another big reason.
Aside from that, I don't think that Damian Jones is that much better than him, but he does seem a bit quicker/more agile than Len so maybe that's why Gentry has been giving him more run... Or maybe Len is still working his way back from being out due to protocols?
My ideal 5 man for the Kings would be able to space the floor with shooting and block some shots on D.
Aside from that, I don't think that Damian Jones is that much better than him, but he does seem a bit quicker/more agile than Len so maybe that's why Gentry has been giving him more run... Or maybe Len is still working his way back from being out due to protocols?
My ideal 5 man for the Kings would be able to space the floor with shooting and block some shots on D.
On offense, Len doesn't have enough of a consistent shot to be an elite PnR/pick and pop big. Holmes rolls better and he has that push shot, though he only seems to be able to shoot from the middle of the paint--rarely see Holmes shooting his push shot from the side/elbow/anywhere else--for Fox fans, that is an issue for Fox, because if he does get a rebound, he's driving into the paint where Hali and Holmes already are. Neither is a good passer though. A big with a more faceted game would feast off of Hali. Roll, pick and pop from multiple locations in the interior after screening, pass the ball to a cutter/the perimeter, or drive and score.
On defense, Holmes can switch and defend the perimeter better while Len is a superior shot alterer and rebounder. So next to Len, I see why Holmes is starting over him. But that 5 spot really needs a huge upgrade. Watch an above average 5 like Vucevic for a full game and you'll see a clear, undeniable difference in quality.
On defense, Holmes can switch and defend the perimeter better while Len is a superior shot alterer and rebounder. So next to Len, I see why Holmes is starting over him. But that 5 spot really needs a huge upgrade. Watch an above average 5 like Vucevic for a full game and you'll see a clear, undeniable difference in quality.
Well, you only make major mistakes giving run to a been around the block big who isn't locked up. Monte had his one go at that with Holmes. Keep doing it and you're back in JT/K9 territory and well... the KANGZ. Nice game from Jones but this is another example of the Kings giving a player the keys when it's only letting THEM build value.
Ok so having seen the numbers, what is your conclusion? You've asked for the data, and I've given it to you. I've even given you the data for drives since your point about playstyle is valid.
I wasn't saying that you thought Fox should get superstar calls. It was more about aptitude. If Giannis gets more FTs than Fox, it doesn't have to mean it's only because Giannis gets star calls. It could simply be that Giannis is a much better, physical player and draws more contact. So what's the point in comparing Fox to him specifically?
The issue I take with your question is that as I said, there is no logical "out". If you already presume that Fox is not getting calls, then there is no precise data that would convince you otherwise. If he averages 1 FT less than Giannis, you could still say he's not getting his fair share of calls. If he averages 4 FTs more than Giannis, you could still say he's not getting his fair share of calls, because "a foul is a foul". Then we're just stuck in playing the good ol "eye test" game which is obviously not biased and completely objective.
I wasn't saying that you thought Fox should get superstar calls. It was more about aptitude. If Giannis gets more FTs than Fox, it doesn't have to mean it's only because Giannis gets star calls. It could simply be that Giannis is a much better, physical player and draws more contact. So what's the point in comparing Fox to him specifically?
The issue I take with your question is that as I said, there is no logical "out". If you already presume that Fox is not getting calls, then there is no precise data that would convince you otherwise. If he averages 1 FT less than Giannis, you could still say he's not getting his fair share of calls. If he averages 4 FTs more than Giannis, you could still say he's not getting his fair share of calls, because "a foul is a foul". Then we're just stuck in playing the good ol "eye test" game which is obviously not biased and completely objective.
Fair enough. I disagree with the foul rate thing though - I think his foul rate is more a byproduct of Len’s role knowing he’s playing 15-20 min so he has hard fouls to give and take, more so that than the other way around .,, meaning if he knows he’s playing 25-30 min he’ll be more conservative with his fouls. I see the point on quickness on the perimeter - but I also feel there’s only 5-10 guys in the league who are legit big guys who can guard the perimeter well. It’s not a skill most starting centers have.
It’s funny though that you’re ideal 5 man seems actually what Len is. Aside from Myles Turner, Joel Embiid, & Jolie , I don’t think there’s a 5 man better than Len in terms of shooting and protecting the interior. Len is like Brook Lopez in that he can defend the paint, and shoot a bit.
My main point is that I think fans often want a complete unicorn at the center position that doesn’t exist outside of Joel Embiid & Jokic, I mean no disrespect but even in your post you essentially said you want a 5 man to shoot, protect the paint, and be quick enough to defend the perimeter. How many 7 footers I’m the league can do that?
I view the Kings problem more of lacking a dynamic 4. I mean look at the last few champions. Their centers were Brook Lopes, McGee/Dwight Howard, & Marc Gasol. Guys very similar to Len. The difference? Dynamic forwards.
Kawhi / Siakham
Kenton/Davis
Giannis
Forwards who can rebound, athletic, play defense. That’s what the Kings lack more so.
I think they can win with a Holmes/Len center rotation. The problem is they don’t have 4’s that show much interest in playing defense, rotating, rebounding, etc
It’s funny though that you’re ideal 5 man seems actually what Len is. Aside from Myles Turner, Joel Embiid, & Jolie , I don’t think there’s a 5 man better than Len in terms of shooting and protecting the interior. Len is like Brook Lopez in that he can defend the paint, and shoot a bit.
My main point is that I think fans often want a complete unicorn at the center position that doesn’t exist outside of Joel Embiid & Jokic, I mean no disrespect but even in your post you essentially said you want a 5 man to shoot, protect the paint, and be quick enough to defend the perimeter. How many 7 footers I’m the league can do that?
I view the Kings problem more of lacking a dynamic 4. I mean look at the last few champions. Their centers were Brook Lopes, McGee/Dwight Howard, & Marc Gasol. Guys very similar to Len. The difference? Dynamic forwards.
Kawhi / Siakham
Kenton/Davis
Giannis
Forwards who can rebound, athletic, play defense. That’s what the Kings lack more so.
I think they can win with a Holmes/Len center rotation. The problem is they don’t have 4’s that show much interest in playing defense, rotating, rebounding, etc
I think this is more so an issue of how the Kings are using Len as opposed to skills. Why isn’t he a good passer? It seems to me he makes good reads a lot of the times. Hard to judge passing though when he’s not posted up much. I see Len as an effective roll guy actually - not elite, but good. I just think the Kings ignore him too much. I may be overstating it but watch len’s rolls next game. Count how many times he gets open and the kings miss him.
Ehh, I think Len is better than Vuceviv. Vucivec just has a much higher usage rate. The bulls feed him the ball in the post, he shoots jumpers, etc. His percentages are terrible actually for a big. On defense, I don’t see any argument for him being a better defender for Len. He just rebounds better though Len’s rebounding may just be a result of small sample size so far.
Ehh, I think Len is better than Vuceviv. Vucivec just has a much higher usage rate. The bulls feed him the ball in the post, he shoots jumpers, etc. His percentages are terrible actually for a big. On defense, I don’t see any argument for him being a better defender for Len. He just rebounds better though Len’s rebounding may just be a result of small sample size so far.
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