[Game] Kings vs Fakers Saturday 11/10 7PM PT - The Hammer is VERY excited about tonight's game.
- Thread starter The Hammer
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I see the reasoning too. But regardless of reasoning, he has to be held to the outcome, and the belief that another GM could have better forecasted, if the disparity in play continues. That’s the biggest thing, if the disparity continues. At the end of the year, Doncic can’t be looking like a 20/5/5+ and Bagley a project
But its hard to ask random fans here and there, like the OP, not to pontificate on passing a guy looking like ROY for a guy struggling. Pretty sure that would go on in 95% of all fan sports boards. Just as I think there would’ve been rumination about Ball or what have you on Lakers boards last year
But its hard to ask random fans here and there, like the OP, not to pontificate on passing a guy looking like ROY for a guy struggling. Pretty sure that would go on in 95% of all fan sports boards. Just as I think there would’ve been rumination about Ball or what have you on Lakers boards last year
Bagley isn’t “struggling”. Nobody but jaded grass is always greener Kings fans are calling Bagley a project or suggesting he’s having a rough rookie season up to this point. You’re forgetting others are being shoehorned for starter minutes and their teams are playing poorly. Doncic plays 35 minutes per game right now. Bagley numbers with those minutes would astounding for a big his age but maybe not the most efficient or what Bagley or the Kings really need at the moment. Joerger isn’t shoehorning him in to big time minutes but 12-6 in 22 minutes for a 19 year old kid is excellent and more than what we could’ve realistically expected..what would Bagley average as a starter with 35 minutes guarantee. 13 more minutes for a 12-6 player in 22 minutes. Look pretty good next to Doncic. Kings are playing well though and we got other bigs playing well. The reserve role increases his touches over the guard centric scheme of the starting lineup offense
There is a reason Donic wasn’t picked. They think Bagley will be a more impactful NBA player when the dust settles and a better fit for a De’Arron Fox led team. The order is rarely defined in the first year or two. Divac has not been proven wrong or right by any stretch but there isn’t anything in the slightest wrong with Bagleys progression and certainly not with his ceiling
There is a reason Donic wasn’t picked. They think Bagley will be a more impactful NBA player when the dust settles and a better fit for a De’Arron Fox led team. The order is rarely defined in the first year or two. Divac has not been proven wrong or right by any stretch but there isn’t anything in the slightest wrong with Bagleys progression and certainly not with his ceiling
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The order may not be ‘defined’, but the good majority of the time the player who looks better initially ends up better. And Vlade will be judged at the end of the season, and the perception of the players will come to play.
Objectively, he will appear lower on Rookie Ladders (like NBA.com) than many of his peers, and a lot of NBA pundits feel his play has been below, not only Doncic, but other options like Jackson and Carter.
A lot of that is subjective, like the importance of per 36. It could be argued if Bagley was more ready, as opposed to other piers, he would be starting.
To my eyes his game is rough on both ends despite the per 36. His awareness on D in the team concept, offensive tunnel vision etc. Not to say that he doesn’t have excellent tools to work with and won’t improve, just that I’m not personally secure with it this day (and I want to be, whether you think that)
I don’t want to be put in a position to argue against the kid though, as I want to believe in him, but will call it as I see it
Objectively, he will appear lower on Rookie Ladders (like NBA.com) than many of his peers, and a lot of NBA pundits feel his play has been below, not only Doncic, but other options like Jackson and Carter.
A lot of that is subjective, like the importance of per 36. It could be argued if Bagley was more ready, as opposed to other piers, he would be starting.
To my eyes his game is rough on both ends despite the per 36. His awareness on D in the team concept, offensive tunnel vision etc. Not to say that he doesn’t have excellent tools to work with and won’t improve, just that I’m not personally secure with it this day (and I want to be, whether you think that)
I don’t want to be put in a position to argue against the kid though, as I want to believe in him, but will call it as I see it
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I wanted Doncic but some of the stans are ridiculous, especially when more than a few of them were also on the Fox is a bust train.
Doncic was always going to be an early front runner for ROY, he's been playing pro-ball in Europe for years. I know a lot of the anti-Doncic folks thought that wouldn't translate, but most reasonable folks knew it would. The questions were always his long term ceiling vs. the guys that were raw athletic prospects.
Doncic was always going to be an early front runner for ROY, he's been playing pro-ball in Europe for years. I know a lot of the anti-Doncic folks thought that wouldn't translate, but most reasonable folks knew it would. The questions were always his long term ceiling vs. the guys that were raw athletic prospects.
Vlade won’t be judged on Bagley by the end of the year. Except by people who feel fit to judge him after 13 games where his pick has played very well for the most part. Rookie ladders mean nothing. Those other options are playing significantly more minutes but aren’t producing more, if at all, than Bagley. That’s Jackson and Carter. Jackson only starts because Green got injured. I’m also not concerned with players that wouldn’t have been drafted ahead of Bagley under any circumstances. Im one hundred percent sure that everybody who passed on Donic and dealt Doncic thought he’d be the most immediately successful player. They don’t think he will be the best player when everybody is settled or that he has the ceiling guys like Ayton, Bagley, and even a Trae Young have. His EL coach and Vlade couldn’t have passed on him lightly but they made an objective decision based on the big picture. As Bagley not playing starter minutes, Kings have clearly stated they simply won’t shoehorn somebody in for starter minutes even if it seems they could. It’s been stressed so much it’s almost a team motto at this point. Fox also was kept in check despite the struggles from the other guards.
You recognize the outside narrative premise is subjective and flawed but roll with it anyway as if people being hasty and wrong in their judgement doesn’t make the judgement any less valid or damning for Vlade.
If we judged Vlade at the end of last year he should’ve been done with Fox’s struggles. Fox probably wasn’t top 5 with rookies last year. This season he’s playing better than Donavan Mitchell and Jayson Tatum to this point. There is a strong possibility he may end up being the best player of that class and ranked as the front runner of the class by the end of this season. He seemed more raw to me relative to his position than Bagley seems to me now.
You recognize the outside narrative premise is subjective and flawed but roll with it anyway as if people being hasty and wrong in their judgement doesn’t make the judgement any less valid or damning for Vlade.
If we judged Vlade at the end of last year he should’ve been done with Fox’s struggles. Fox probably wasn’t top 5 with rookies last year. This season he’s playing better than Donavan Mitchell and Jayson Tatum to this point. There is a strong possibility he may end up being the best player of that class and ranked as the front runner of the class by the end of this season. He seemed more raw to me relative to his position than Bagley seems to me now.
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IMO Vlade will be under scrutiny this summer. Not only for his own self declaration, and being a year away from the end of his contract, but because how the Kings have progressed roster wise is arguable in terms of how it’s been handled. That’s what I think anyway. If that’s true, I personally think how the 2 pick was handled might be of importance to Vivek/Co.
Ayton/Bagley/Young were picked higher. Ayton was arguably the consensus 1, a local kid and may have played a greater position of need. Atlanta, IMO correctly liked Young’s upside and it can be argued PG is the most productive position in the modern era. Vlade/Co may have thought Bagley’s ceiling was higher, I hope. But there is also the argument that they could have put positional/style concerns over sheer talent in selecting the better fit with Fox and their running the court plans, and worried about the team being better on the court short term for job security, which would be questionable to some if true.
It’s not just about Doncic for me, as I think personally even Jackson/Carter as two way prospects and a few other players may have an argument at this point.
This is subjective, but Fox in SL, the first few weeks of the season, in the clutch showed undeniable glimpses of domination at this level. I said it all last year. It was a matter of finding out why he didn’t play like that all the time, not potential greatness. Thankfully it looks like coaching. Bags has just for me and others not inspired much of the same since SL, but the kid has tools and the stats are solid for sure. Hopefully we start to see more, IMO
Ayton/Bagley/Young were picked higher. Ayton was arguably the consensus 1, a local kid and may have played a greater position of need. Atlanta, IMO correctly liked Young’s upside and it can be argued PG is the most productive position in the modern era. Vlade/Co may have thought Bagley’s ceiling was higher, I hope. But there is also the argument that they could have put positional/style concerns over sheer talent in selecting the better fit with Fox and their running the court plans, and worried about the team being better on the court short term for job security, which would be questionable to some if true.
It’s not just about Doncic for me, as I think personally even Jackson/Carter as two way prospects and a few other players may have an argument at this point.
This is subjective, but Fox in SL, the first few weeks of the season, in the clutch showed undeniable glimpses of domination at this level. I said it all last year. It was a matter of finding out why he didn’t play like that all the time, not potential greatness. Thankfully it looks like coaching. Bags has just for me and others not inspired much of the same since SL, but the kid has tools and the stats are solid for sure. Hopefully we start to see more, IMO
It’s gonna be hard for Bagley yo be more impactful than a wing like Doncic. Doncic averaging 20-6-4 while controlling the pace of the game and offense is hard to beat. Bagley would have to be great on defense and get 20ppg cause I don’t seee him as a creator for teammates.
But Bagley is who we got so let’s hope he’s a beast.
The fit crap will always pee me off
But Bagley is who we got so let’s hope he’s a beast.
The fit crap will always pee me off
By the time of the draft I believe Vlade and company had a good idea what they had in Fox so young to them was not a option. Ayton was not going to be there but if he was he would be playing here now.
So it came down to Jackson, Doncic or Bagley.
We needed a PF and SF and with picking at 2 I don’t think Jackson’s name came up. So it came down to Bagley or Doncic or trade down. Doncic got traded down and if a lot of folks thought he should go top 3 some GM’s didn’t think so.
I believed like a lot of people that the top 2 picks went as they predicted and we made the right choice.
Yes I have always believed and still do that he will be starting by the all star game.
So it came down to Jackson, Doncic or Bagley.
We needed a PF and SF and with picking at 2 I don’t think Jackson’s name came up. So it came down to Bagley or Doncic or trade down. Doncic got traded down and if a lot of folks thought he should go top 3 some GM’s didn’t think so.
I believed like a lot of people that the top 2 picks went as they predicted and we made the right choice.
Yes I have always believed and still do that he will be starting by the all star game.