[Game] Kings vs Blazers - Tuesday, Jan. 1 - 6:00PT/9:00ET - HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

I want to see him stop with that weak layup that just about every center in the league can block or alter to being aggressive going to the hole and at least drawing contact. You’ve got hops on lobs why the weak shots when anyone is around you?
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According to basketball-reference dot com Willie has gotten his shot blocked 45 times in 37 games, over one per game. Wow, pathetic! Let me see if I can see if he leads the league in getting swatted....I can't find that page but I noticed that he have drawn only 3 offensive charges all year! That is one every 12 games. Another very bad stat for a non-shot blocker. This guy is a joke but our coach seems to love him like his inexplicable love affair with G-Leaguer Jackson who bricked wide open threes in the last two games (2-7 from three, all wide open) out of perfectly executed play sets that could have made the difference between W and an L. Jackson is the rare "3&D" player that gives you no 3s and no D. In my season preview I excluded both of these bums from our core. Too bad Joerger did not get the memo . :cool: . And before anyone says Jackson has "improved", if you "improve" from "really bad to "bad" you are still bad. I cannot wait for the day both these underachievers are off the roster.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
They don't operate in the same space. WCS is in the high post and Bagley in the low post.

If they run the horns set then of course one on the left and one on the right.

Giles is being used exactly the same as WCS. If you think Giles and Bagley can play together then WCS and Bagley pairing is similar.
No, it isn't similar. Giles and Bagley could play together because they both can play offense inside and outside. WCS has regressed and cannot be relied upon to shoot a 15-17 footer with any accuracy. So, he's relegated to drives to the basket and pick n' roll. You can talk about offensive sets and systems all you want, but the key is how complementary are the respective games of the players. There's no question in my mind that the Giles/Bagley combo would have more offensive versatility because of the above. The only question I have is how they would both do on the defensive end of the floor.
 
If you think Giles and Bagley can play together then WCS and Bagley pairing is similar.
Giles shows great passing skill and shooting range out to 20 feet from the high post. Willie is left unguarded from 15 feet and tends to telegraph his passes. He ends up making a lot of handoffs to the guard in tight space whereas Giles is more likely to find the cutter or make a decisive offensive move. The pairing of MB3 with either of these guys is not exactly similar when one is a genuine threat from the high post and the other is not. Giles also sets better picks from the high post.
 
Yep but if you believe Giles has a high IQ, I think he figures out where to go quickly. Just hope Kings aren’t playing Giles to trade him. For some reason don’t think he and Dave mesh. Sent Giles to the showcase event (designed to showcase for acquisition/trades) and now DJ plays him prior to the trade deadline??

I think we will regret trading that kid if we do.
Man, suggest you let go of that theory (of them shopping Giles) and relax for a minute. They’re not trading the guy. And if they do, then we’ll have a big conversation about it.
 
According to basketball-reference dot com Willie has gotten his shot blocked 45 times in 37 games, over one per game. Wow, pathetic! Let me see if I can see if he leads the league in getting swatted....I can't find that page but I noticed that he have drawn only 3 offensive charges all year! That is one every 12 games. Another very bad stat for a non-shot blocker. This guy is a joke but our coach seems to love him like his inexplicable love affair with G-Leaguer Jackson who bricked wide open threes in the last two games (2-7 from three, all wide open) out of perfectly executed play sets that could have made the difference between W and an L. Jackson is the rare "3&D" player that gives you no 3s and no D. In my season preview I excluded both of these bums from our core. Too bad Joerger did not get the memo . :cool: . And before anyone says Jackson has "improved", if you "improve" from "really bad to "bad" you are still bad. I cannot wait for the day both these underachievers are off the roster.
Yeah i could not agree more with this, Jackson has to be the biggest nothing player I have seen on the Kings since Marcus Thornton completely tanked it in after his contract the difference being Jackson is trying. I kind of feel sorry at times for Fox/Bodgon/Buddy some of the guys on the team are a massive burden to carry to much in fact.
 
Giles shows great passing skill and shooting range out to 20 feet from the high post. Willie is left unguarded from 15 feet and tends to telegraph his passes. He ends up making a lot of handoffs to the guard in tight space whereas Giles is more likely to find the cutter or make a decisive offensive move. The pairing of MB3 with either of these guys is not exactly similar when one is a genuine threat from the high post and the other is not. Giles also sets better picks from the high post.

Yeah, Giles shows potential of having a much better all around offensive game than Willie. The problem is I don't see the same all around athletic ability.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
According to basketball-reference dot com Willie has gotten his shot blocked 45 times in 37 games, over one per game. Wow, pathetic! Let me see if I can see if he leads the league in getting swatted....I can't find that page but I noticed that he have drawn only 3 offensive charges all year! That is one every 12 games. Another very bad stat for a non-shot blocker. This guy is a joke but our coach seems to love him like his inexplicable love affair with G-Leaguer Jackson who bricked wide open threes in the last two games (2-7 from three, all wide open) out of perfectly executed play sets that could have made the difference between W and an L. Jackson is the rare "3&D" player that gives you no 3s and no D. In my season preview I excluded both of these bums from our core. Too bad Joerger did not get the memo . :cool: . And before anyone says Jackson has "improved", if you "improve" from "really bad to "bad" you are still bad. I cannot wait for the day both these underachievers are off the roster.
Piggy-backing off your stat, WCS has made 22 blocks on opponents over the 37 games. He's had his own shot blocked 45 times. So he's a net minus 23 in blocks! He's in the red by 23 blocks for the season so far. It would be very interesting to know how that stacks up with other centers around the league.
 
Most teams have a decent but not always great starting 5. We have a very good backcourt and with Beli and Bagley we have a pretty decent power forward position.
Now that leaves the center and small forward position and we need to fill out one of those spots somehow.
Shump and Giles hopefully going forward will be a big part of this.

Ben and JJ are two that I believe need to be included in the first deal out of here. We can’t afford to dump both WCS and KK unless we get something in return. I would keep KK before Willie and well we’ll see.
 
Piggy-backing off your stat, WCS has made 22 blocks on opponents over the 37 games. He's had his own shot blocked 45 times. So he's a net minus 23 in blocks! He's in the red by 23 blocks for the season so far. It would be very interesting to know how that stacks up with other centers around the league.
I'll let you judge for yourself.

Myles Turner 103-16= +87
Anthony Davis 90-30= +60
Rudy Gobert 76-25= +51
Hassan Whiteside 79-25= +54
Nikola Jokic 25-29= -4
Nikola Vucevic 42-23= +19
Marc Gasol 53-17= +36
Joel Embiid 70-46= +24
Jusuf Nurkic 51-38= +13
Steven Adams 29-30= -1
DeAndre Jordan 38-16= +22
 
I'll let you judge for yourself.

Myles Turner 103-16= +87
Anthony Davis 90-30= +60
Rudy Gobert 76-25= +51
Hassan Whiteside 79-25= +54
Nikola Jokic 25-29= -4
Nikola Vucevic 42-23= +19
Marc Gasol 53-17= +36
Joel Embiid 70-46= +24
Jusuf Nurkic 51-38= +13
Steven Adams 29-30= -1
DeAndre Jordan 38-16= +22
Wow, this is really telling... and really disappointing at the same time, considering Turner was selected 6 spots after WCS
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
I'll let you judge for yourself.

Myles Turner 103-16= +87
Anthony Davis 90-30= +60
Rudy Gobert 76-25= +51
Hassan Whiteside 79-25= +54
Nikola Jokic 25-29= -4
Nikola Vucevic 42-23= +19
Marc Gasol 53-17= +36
Joel Embiid 70-46= +24
Jusuf Nurkic 51-38= +13
Steven Adams 29-30= -1
DeAndre Jordan 38-16= +22
Thanks. It doesn't look like he's in the planetary orbit of any of those guys. I don't want you to do the work, but it probably would take some work to find an NBA center near -23 like WCS.
 
Thanks. It doesn't look like he's in the planetary orbit of any of those guys. I don't want you to do the work, but it probably would take some work to find an NBA center near -23 like WCS.
Yeah, I stopped where I did because it wasn't looking like I was going to find him any competition.
Here's a more varied eleven:
Karl-Anthony Towns 72-32= +40
Brook Lopez 68-10= +58
Al Horford 42-16= +26
Jarrett Allen 52-21= +31
Andre Drummond 66-46= +20
Deandre Ayton 35-22= +13
JaVale McGee 79-8= +71
Tyson Chandler 14-4= +10
Robin Lopez 29-5= +24
Kosta Koufos 10-5= +5
Marvin Bagley III 27-12= +15
 
Willie's #5 onthe list of C's getting steals.

Willie also AVERAGES THE LEAST TURNOVERS PER GAME OF ANY C who plays 28+ minutes. This whole blocks thing is absurd.
Looks like we got ourselves a pretty good point guard then. How about those rebounds and finishing around the rim though?

Absurd that we would want our big man to challenge inside shots and finish strong! Much better that he doesn't turn the ball over due to hardly passing it!
 
This whole blocks thing is absurd.
I find it strange and interesting, but not a particularly natural combination to look at or worry about. How much anyone wants to read into it is up to them. He's still shooting 53% despite getting blocked all the time. I'm bothered by his block rate, but people seem to differ on how important they think that is in a center, so..... ?

Blocks per 36:
MBIII: 1.6
Bjelica: 1.3
KK: 1.1
Skal: 0.8
WCS: 0.8
Giles: 0.7
McBen: 0.7
Fox: 0.6
 
Looks like we got ourselves a pretty good point guard then. How about those rebounds and finishing around the rim though?

Absurd that we would want our big man to challenge inside shots and finish strong! Much better that he doesn't turn the ball over due to hardly passing it!
Yeah a good point guard... good chat :p
 
I find it strange and interesting, but not a particularly natural combination to look at or worry about. How much anyone wants to read into it is up to them. He's still shooting 53% despite getting blocked all the time. I'm bothered by his block rate, but people seem to differ on how important they think that is in a center, so..... ?

Blocks per 36:
MBIII: 1.6
Bjelica: 1.3
KK: 1.1
Skal: 0.8
WCS: 0.8
Giles: 0.7
McBen: 0.7
Fox: 0.6
Is it really about a center? I think not. i think its more just the granfalloon has settled on a scapegoat...and it's easy to see how it passed, blame the last line of defense.... they goin after low-hanging fruit...

i'd file a vast majority of the willie bashing posted this season into "the grass is greener on the other side".... I would love to really have a lets put all the cards on the table OBJECTIVE conversation but i get these absurd indirect responses (like above) where it's basically i gotta keep repeating myself to get a direct response. Are these people really looking for perspective or are they just looking to vent? my gut tells me the latter. I don't care to convince anyone, i'm not mongering, i'm no salesman. Time will tell who has the last laugh.

the way i look at it, if it wasn't willie being scapegoated, it'd be someone else.... So i'm glad it's him because he'll take with a smile on his face, his teammates don't think of him the way y'all do, the coaching staff doesnt either.. The front office doesnt.

Willie is gonna go down as one of the best C's in franchise history. I'm glad I wasn't around here for the Cousins years, must have been a deluge of this same style nitpicking, but worse.
 
Is it really about a center? I think not. i think its more just the granfalloon has settled on a scapegoat...and it's easy to see how it passed, blame the last line of defense.... they goin after low-hanging fruit...

i'd file a vast majority of the willie bashing posted this season into "the grass is greener on the other side".... I would love to really have a lets put all the cards on the table OBJECTIVE conversation but i get these absurd indirect responses (like above) where it's basically i gotta keep repeating myself to get a direct response. Are these people really looking for perspective or are they just looking to vent? my gut tells me the latter. I don't care to convince anyone, i'm not mongering, i'm no salesman. Time will tell who has the last laugh.

the way i look at it, if it wasn't willie being scapegoated, it'd be someone else.... So i'm glad it's him because he'll take with a smile on his face, his teammates don't think of him the way y'all do, the coaching staff doesnt either.. The front office doesnt.

Willie is gonna go down as one of the best C's in franchise history. I'm glad I wasn't around here for the Cousins years, must have been a deluge of this same style nitpicking, but worse.
I really don't know what you expect out of a fan forum. Hey let's never criticize our players and just point out how good they are? I mean, realistically, what do you expect people to be posting about on a daily basis for 82 games? That's how life works. We complain. Usually about the same few topics. Yea sure there are some kids starving in Africa, but have you seen the neighbour's hideous new car?
 
Are these people really looking for perspective or are they just looking to vent? my gut tells me the latter.
I guess it depends on the person. IIRC, the last thing I'd posted about WCS was a year or two ago, when I noted that the Kings won most games when he scored beyond a certain level. That's not the kind of statistic that really proves anything by itself, but it seemed at least worth thinking about. I look at the present statistical anomaly in much the same way. It's not a criticism of WCS's talent, because I've seen him block and rebound quite effectively before. It could be seen as questioning his current style of play, but I don't know how much that is even his choice. If he's doing exactly what coach tells him to, he's entirely blameless. We fans may never know the degree to which either explanation applies, and wouldn't have much influence over anything if we did, so I'm noting interesting numbers and leaving it at that.
 
It's not that hard. We are much better when Willie plays well. This usually coincides with his effort. This also is not saying that Willie doesn't care or that he isn't trying. In his mind he probably thinks he is. There is an instinct to go after a ball that some people have and some don't. Willie just doesn't have it.

Now this recent stretch of games, for whatever reason, he's been unusually bad. That hurts us in close games where rebounding is a factor.
 
Wow, this is really telling... and really disappointing at the same time, considering Turner was selected 6 spots after WCS
The three players I wanted over Willie in that draft were (1) Myles Turner and (2) Stanley Johnson or (3) Justise Winslow. Willie was invisible in the tournament game deferring to KAT. What was the appeal? Vlade took him because he attended a major school so he had to be worthy of a high pick. I think this was the depth of his thought process. A player like Myles attended Texas so could not have been as formidable or so went the thinking by the man in charge. Myles has stagnated as a player since his rookie season, but he has been coming on strong lately. He is a great shot blocker and 2-3 years younger than Willie. His pick was somewhat analogous age-wise and upside-wise to us taking T-Rob over Drummond, another obvious blunder at the time made by Petrie. And by the way Winslow, another much younger prospect than Willie, is flourishing as PG for the Heat with Dragic injured. He reminds me of a young Tyreke with better decision making. I haven't kept as close of tabs on Stanley but he is probably in the same boat as Willie as being a disappointment, though he plays tough D.
 
Willie's #5 onthe list of C's getting steals.

Willie also AVERAGES THE LEAST TURNOVERS PER GAME OF ANY C who plays 28+ minutes. This whole blocks thing is absurd.
The reason Willie doesn't make a lot of turnovers is because he just hands it off to the guard from the high post. He's not initiating offense or finding cutters. He's not making teammates better. In fact his tendency to hold the ball puts a drag on the offense and runs precious seconds off the clock. You can credit him for lack of turnovers, that is fine, I don't have a problem with it. But it is the same as Jackson. The guy is not doing anything to advance the offense, to move the ball down the field if you will, hence he has a low turnover percentage too.

Willie's assist to turnover ratio of 2.0 is good but in the context of everything else he does and doesn't do, it is negligible. His steal rate is also good but ultimately negligible considering how little resistance he provides at the rim and pick and roll.

I have a stat to ponder: 78% of Willie's baskets are assisted. That is lob passes and drop passes for dunks. That means only 22% of his FGMs are unassisted. Over the course of 38 games and 1093 minutes that amounts to 49 FGs made without the help of a teammate. In effect he cannot score unless a teammate sets him up more than once per game. That is sad when you consider he tries to score maybe 5X per game on his own. So he makes about 20% of his FGs when he pretends he is KAT or Embiid.

I have said in the past I do not discount the value of being a strong lob target, it is important and even underrated. But the inability to shoot the face up or have a low post move that works more than 20% of the time along with defensive issues makes him highly expendable. His assist : turnovers and steals do not overcome this by a longshot.
 
Those weak sauce WCS layup attempts were pathetic. Frustrating game
Drives to the hole don't work often when the defender is daring you to shoot. You set up the attack to the rim by being a threat to make a 15 footer. It is the same with Lonzo Bust. Lonzo Bust is being dared to shoot it all the time. He is not beating his primary defender because he is backed off him ready to cut off the driving lanes. At best the offensive player gets taken off their straight lane to the rim so they are attempting the layup at an awkward angle. If your shot is not butter you need to have blazing speed like DeFox or juke moves to throw the defender off balance. Willie has speed advantage of his defender but it is negated by the defender not respecting his shot. The one "juke move" Willie has is his spin in the lane and the lefty flip but this only works 1 out of 5 times because he usually throws himself out of balance or lacks the touch to finish.
 
Is it really about a center? I think not. i think its more just the granfalloon has settled on a scapegoat...and it's easy to see how it passed, blame the last line of defense.... they goin after low-hanging fruit...

i'd file a vast majority of the willie bashing posted this season into "the grass is greener on the other side".... I would love to really have a lets put all the cards on the table OBJECTIVE conversation but i get these absurd indirect responses (like above) where it's basically i gotta keep repeating myself to get a direct response. Are these people really looking for perspective or are they just looking to vent? my gut tells me the latter. I don't care to convince anyone, i'm not mongering, i'm no salesman. Time will tell who has the last laugh.

the way i look at it, if it wasn't willie being scapegoated, it'd be someone else.... So i'm glad it's him because he'll take with a smile on his face, his teammates don't think of him the way y'all do, the coaching staff doesnt either.. The front office doesnt.

Willie is gonna go down as one of the best C's in franchise history. I'm glad I wasn't around here for the Cousins years, must have been a deluge of this same style nitpicking, but worse.
I spent a fair amount of time criticizing Boogie, for his black hole tendency in the 4th quarter, careless TOs, constant bickering with refs and slow transition in D, but Willie is more frustrating. At least Boogie had game. Boogie was a baller. When he was right he was awesome. Willie is a fraud. I look forward to you admitting your wrong about this comment "Willie is gonna go down as one of the best C's in franchise history." but won't hold my breath.
 
Drives to the hole don't work often when the defender is daring you to shoot. You set up the attack to the rim by being a threat to make a 15 footer. It is the same with Lonzo Bust. Lonzo Bust is being dared to shoot it all the time. He is not beating his primary defender because he is backed off him ready to cut off the driving lanes. At best the offensive player gets taken off their straight lane to the rim so they are attempting the layup at an awkward angle. If your shot is not butter you need to have blazing speed like DeFox or juke moves to throw the defender off balance. Willie has speed advantage of his defender but it is negated by the defender not respecting his shot. The one "juke move" Willie has is his spin in the lane and the lefty flip but this only works 1 out of 5 times because he usually throws himself out of balance or lacks the touch to finish.
This is true. Thing about Willie is he makes layups like a guard. Cousins could drive but with his size and strength could stop, spin to create space and then finish. Willie doesn't have the strength or balance to actually drive to a position right under the rim where he can finish easily.