9x1x6
Bench
Rondo/collison/McLemore line up got quite a few mintues before half as well.
[Game] Kings v. Thunder - 2/29/16 - 7 PT, 10 ET
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KingsCitizen
Starter
Utah and Houston both lose and we did our own way of sticking with our losing ways.
Please pick up someone Vlade.
Kevin Martin? Tony Wroten? Jimmer? Webster? The corpse of G-Crash?
Please pick up someone Vlade.
Kevin Martin? Tony Wroten? Jimmer? Webster? The corpse of G-Crash?
I agree, turnovers were really the problem for us. And just taking better shots. If we can just get our execution right on offense then the other team is going to be taking the ball out of the net and that gives us an opportunity to set our defense. Other than that I thought we played pretty well. 116 points will get you the win most nights. Yeah we could sacrifice some of that offense to keep defenders on the floor but we have to stick to what we're best at. If we can play just enough defense next time without compromising our offense, we should be in good shape.
Double-K
Starter
That'd be close to the speed George Karl hopes we play in.
Which was odd. But I suppose if you're already compromising yourself defensively at 1 position, why not 2 positions. We're in a difficult position with Collison though. If you want to play him 25+ minutes a night and Rondo 35 minutes a night, he's going to have to play some SG. I'd really prefer that we trade him in the off-season to a team that needs help at PG and try to replace his scoring with a combo guard who wouldn't be over-matched defensively at either guard spot.
No ****ing way I'm giving anyone on this roster a single ounce of credit for their defensive effort.
You give up 130 points, you're collectively providing a pile of dog **** that deserved to be booed off the floor.
It's no surprise that Ben was +5 for the game... defense is crap and Karl refuses to adjust. I've said this time after time...don't want Rondo back. He doesn't play an ounce of defense. Pathetic.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
That might make sense, assuming Rondo re-ups. Can't do anything with Collison until then, though.
I don't know how much stock I would put into individual game +/-
For instance, Dion Waiters has been terrible this year and he managed to accrue a +30 against us tonight.
Ben was +5 for the game(before garbage time) while everyone else was negative.
Waiters went 8-11 for 22pts 2rebs 2asts.
I'm just saying that +/- numbers on a game by game basis fluctuate so widely for so many reasons that it's difficult to draw any conclusions from one game. Collison was worst on the Kings this game at -24. Is that because he's a terrible player or even that he was our worst player tonight or is it because he played most of his minutes as part of a three guard lineup that just got absolutely torched from outside? I don't even know. The game before this he was -7 against the Clippers, which was better than any of the other starters. We gave up 117 in that game without Rondo playing at all (40 of them were Chris Paul). The game before that Collison went 7 for 8 against the Spurs and was rewarded for his efforts with a big fat -29. You could look at any player on the team and get similar results. Averaged over the course of a season maybe it means something, but I don't know what.
When I got the chance to represent KF.com at KHTK for Pete D'Alessandro's talk with fans I only got to ask him two questions. The first one was what about the roster made him think they should be playing more uptempo.
His answer began with, "Darren Collison, Ben McLemore, Derrick Williams". I left feeling like Malone had a better grasp of the roster than the guy who put it together.
Now this year we've got Rondo at the point instead of DC and yet the team is playing even faster. It makes no sense. This isn't playing to the team's strengths, it's just turning games into track meets when most opponents can do that much better than the Kings can.
His answer began with, "Darren Collison, Ben McLemore, Derrick Williams". I left feeling like Malone had a better grasp of the roster than the guy who put it together.
Now this year we've got Rondo at the point instead of DC and yet the team is playing even faster. It makes no sense. This isn't playing to the team's strengths, it's just turning games into track meets when most opponents can do that much better than the Kings can.
I am so done with George Karl.
The Kings and all the fans need to file for restraining orders against George Karl. You know what bothered me the most? When Stephen Adams was trying to take DMC out, George Karl didn't do a thing. He just sat there passively, I suspect secretly hoping that perhaps DMC would actually lose his temper and kill Adams.
The Kings and all the fans need to file for restraining orders against George Karl. You know what bothered me the most? When Stephen Adams was trying to take DMC out, George Karl didn't do a thing. He just sat there passively, I suspect secretly hoping that perhaps DMC would actually lose his temper and kill Adams.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Stat of the effing night right there.
Someone staple these numbers to Vivek "Jazzy" Ranadive's forehead.
Karl is a lost cause. F pace. Uuughh.....
K
KingMilz
Guest
Not a fan of Cuz by any means but he was terrific tonight I was more impressed with his peformance tonight than almost all the other epic games he's had. I think when Cuz is not on the floor we are using WCS all wrong he has to be the C and rim protector and Acy/Rudy/Casspi the PF we drafted WCS to first protect the rim and I thought Acy was doing a ok job on Durrant. Koufos should be out of the rotation Acy and WCS are better at both ends he's to slow for todays NBA and can't hurt teams on offense.
I liked our first quarter a lot but our lack of talent and inability to defend killed us.
I liked our first quarter a lot but our lack of talent and inability to defend killed us.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Believe me, I totally understand. If you have to have someone out there that can't play defense, you might as well have someone that can actually hit a shot.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
That sounds like my situation, the true definition of a die hard fan I suppose, no matter the circumstances, you just can't turn away.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
all aboard the tank train!
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
what for? do you really think putting a band aid on this wound will help salvage anything of any sort? just accept the losing and take it like a champ because that's what this organization is known for.
This "anti-pace" stuff has basically reached the height of ludicrousness. Something goes wrong? Blame pace! It's easy, and there's going to be a bunch of like-minded anti-pacers who are going to start clapping and patting you on the back, so hey it's safe as well.
But the idea that we lost the game because we took more shots is plain silly. We WANT to take more shots. We KILLED them on offensive boards, 22 to 10. We KILLED them on turnovers, 10 to 21. We created a ton of extra shots for ourselves...and then we missed them. But we want to take more shots than the opponent - we darn well weren't going to win the game taking fewer shots.
We lost the game for a lot of reasons. We lost the game, for one, because we shot terribly (44.9%) while they shot really well (57.3%). (By the way - they didn't shoot really well because they got out on the break after our "pace" shooting - we beat them on fast break points 17 to 16.) We lost because we let them score 23 points from the free throw line - including FIVE totally avoidable technicals. We lost because we let them shoot over 40% of their shots from the more-efficient three point line, and they hit over 40%, while we only took under 25% of our shots from three and hit under 30%.
It's pretty simple - our offense sucked, our defense sucked, and we gave them tons of free points from the charity stripe. That's why we lost. We darn well didn't lose because we decisively won the offensive rebounding and turnover battles, leading to us taking more shots. Winning those two categories was the only thing that kept us from losing by 40.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Pace leads to sloppy offense and crappy defense.
When you get way more shots than your opponent but still get blown out because of TOs, crap defense, whatever. .... and yet the coach is still preaching the pace mantra, it gets irksome.
I don't really hate pace itself, I hate that Karl/Vivek value pace above, you know, actually playing basketball.
When you get way more shots than your opponent but still get blown out because of TOs, crap defense, whatever. .... and yet the coach is still preaching the pace mantra, it gets irksome.
I don't really hate pace itself, I hate that Karl/Vivek value pace above, you know, actually playing basketball.
Pace has become a dirty word amongst Kings fans since it was trotted out as part of the justification for Mike Malone's firing. In and of itself pace is just one metric about how a team plays.
But the Kings lead the league in opponent FGM per game. And are also first in opponent 3PM per game by a significant margin. The Kings are fourth in FGM per game and are 17th in 3PM per game.
It isn't just that the Kings play fast that is causing them to lose. It's that most other teams appear to be better than the Kings at their own stated goal of playing fast. On paper there's no reason a team led by DeMarcus Cousins, Rajon Rondo and Rudy Gay should be first in the league in pace or employing an offense that tells them that their basic offensive concepts in the half court are to shoot threes or attack the basket from the three point line. Or using a pseudo zone defense to maximize transition opportunities while offering easy looks in the gaps and creating poor mismatches.
Karl has a roster that doesn't fit what he wants to do. And he doesn't have the pull to change the roster or the willingness to adjust his concepts & schemes.
Fully agreed.
I'm not convinced other teams are beating us at playing fast - they are certainly beating us, but I'm not actually sure if there's anywhere to get team time of possession stats to show that other teams are playing faster on us (as opposed to us playing faster on them) than they do in general. We're 21st in the league in three-point rate, so it's clear that we're not actually shooting a ton of threes relative to the league - to the extent that Karl's offense calls for us to shoot a ton of threes, we're not executing it. As far as the defense goes, I'm not really seeing the pseudo-zone you describe, but I'm not the greatest analyst so I could be missing it. What I do see is a ton of switches - mostly unnecessary - that lead to reliable mismatches for the other team. I also see a bunch of three-guard lineups that leave us smaller than the opponent. Is that because of "pace" considerations or because Collison is by far our best bench player? I'd like to see more Cousins in the post, but does he set up outside because Karl wants him outside, or does he set up outside because he's usually the last player up the floor? I'd note that when he IS the first player down, he usually gets into the paint, gets a seal, and we often get him the ball for an easy two.
Bottom line, I think there are a lot of things wrong with this team (a lot more than I've mentioned above) but to me most of them seem to be unrelated to pace of play or only related through some difficult contortions. And it's not like I'm a big "pace" guy - I want our offense to get good shots, with passing, cutting, getting open...and yes, getting out in transition when possible and taking high efficiency shots (e.g. corner threes). I don't want us to take a fast shot unless it's a good shot, and if we could slow it down and put on a Spurs-style offensive clinic (I don't think we can, but that's another story) I'd be all for it. But I just don't think there's very much evidence that "pace" is the source of all or even most of our ills, and it tires me to see that sort of misplaced blame over and over.
I don't suppose you've considered that, if we didn't play so fast, maybe Cousins wouldn't be the last player down the court as often? Also, why would Collison being our best bench player mean that he has to be played in conjunction with two other guards all the time?
I look at that as a simple extrapolation from the following pieces of data:
(1) The Kings are first in the league in pace
(2) The Kings are first in the league at FGM per game while being worst in the league at opp FGM per game
(3) The Kings are 17th in 3PM per game while their opponents are 1st in the league in 3PM per game
(4) The Kings have a 24-34 record
So the Kings play the fastest of all NBA teams and score the most baskets per game but allow their opponents to score slightly more baskets, a higher percentage of which are 3's which is a large part of why they are losing more games than they win. It's an oversimplification but the Kings aren't losing the free throw battle or the rebounding battle based on statistics. To me the numbers say they are trying to play faster than other teams but that has not produced positive results.
Outside of stats, what I see when I watch this Kings team is a squad that responds to giving up an easy basket not by getting upset or making any adjustments but by simply running down the court in an effort to "make it up" on the other end. I see a team that is focused on pushing the ball but which struggles to execute in a half court set. And that becomes an issue when the game gets tight and opponents starting picking guys up earlier and earlier - it hurts the ability to score in transition and forces teams to execute in the half court. To me that's a key reason why the Kings rarely "win" the ends of quarters, halves or games. Things tighten up and while the coaching staff may believe "It’s always time to break. There is never not a time to break", that's not quite true when the opponent pressures you enough to force you to slow down.
This speaks directly to the mismatch of scheme and roster. An offense dedicated to always moving quickly, and dedicated to either getting a three or attacking the basket doesn't work nearly as well when your starting PG is a historically bad shooter, your starting (?) SG is a reluctant shooter and your backup SG is having a historically bad shooting year. It also doesn't work as well when neither of your SGs is adept at attacking the basket - McLemore because of his weak handle and Belinelli because of his slow foot speed.
The speed that the Kings play at gives them opportunities for transition hoops at the basket as well as transition/early offense looks from 3 but it also tends to allow them on the other end which is a losing proposition for a poor three point shooting team.
When running Dribble Drive concepts Cousins assumes the role of the 4 man with Acy, WCS or Koufos acting as the 5 man. In that role he sets up outside the three point line and is asked to shoot from three or attack the basket just like the 1, 2 and 3 man.
At times they'll switch between a modified 3-2 alignment and man-to-man. You can see it when an opponent cuts from the high arc and cuts across to the opposite corner. Sometimes that man is simply allowed to make that move with the down man hedging over to prevent an easy basket but then passing him off to the defender on the other side.
If I were to guess I'd say they employ this sort of scheme because it keeps everyone focused on the ball and ready to attack the other end. I honestly think that's a big part of the strategy.
And honestly I have no idea what the hell the Kings are trying to do against the pick and roll. They don't force them, they don't hedge, they don't trap and they don't really even do traditional zone or switch. The reason the pick and roll is such a big part of most teams' offense is that the defense has to give up something to take away the other options. In general what you'll live with is the pop from the big. But the Kings seem to allow the ballhandler to not only get into the lane easily, they switch to create a matchup with the roll man. I honestly wish I knew what the concept is supposed to be because to me it makes no sense.
It doesn't help that Karl's offense uses almost no pick and rolls in basic sets since that means less reps defending it in practice. Practices that by most accounts were nearly all offensively focused until right around the all star break.
Personally I'd argue that Casspi is the Kings best bench player. In terms of needed impact I think you can argue that Cauley-Stein is as useful off the bench as Collison. But DC is the best scorer off the bench. I could even side with Karl going to small ball if there was a full sized SF because the Kings SG have been so bad. But I think the three guard thing just stems from Karl's desire to have two ballhandlers on the court, something he's been fond of for years and years now.
Here's what initially set off alarms in my head about the speed at which the Kings offense was moving. Rondo stated publicly months ago that he and Cousins went to Karl to plead with him to slow things down. The team's best player and the starting PG didn't want to play at the pace that Karl wanted. That's a huge red flag to me. It makes me think that if Karl were the Grizzlies coach to start the year he'd have them moving at the fastest pace in the NBA for better or for (likely) worse.
I don't care what speed a team plays at if it's the right style. I loved the Showtime Lakers, the Warriors are incredible and I hated Fratello's Cavs with the walk it up, plays called out every possession offense. It doesn't matter to me what speed the team plays at as long as it's the one that maximizes the personnel. And that's my issue here. I think what Karl is trying to do detracts from his best players strengths and exacerbates their weaknesses.
Sac.1989
Starter
yes - thats the whole reason why you make these pick ups following cuts.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
You add players like those when you are a contender and looking for more depth to add to your roster. Not when you are a bottom dweller or mediocre team with no direction and identity. It's spinning the wheel.
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