[Game] Kings v Pistons 1/10/19 7pm PT/10pm ET- Time to battle

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think Bogdan is forcing too much offensively. He clearly is in a rut shooting wise which is why I wish he would focus on his other good aspects. Shot isn’t falling? Go post up and draw a foul or score down low. Can’t find room for your shot so take a bad one? Dribble around a little more instead and find the open man. He draws a lot of attention and he’s a very good playmaker. I wish he would focus on that more since his shooting has slumped. He will get out of it eventually but there have been times when he has definitely forced the issue.
 
When you say ppl attacking him because his "personality" you saying the whole package is what they dont like and not the 1 chararistic or trait.
No. Those are your words.

People praise high energy, unproductive guys like Troy Williams because it "looks" or "feels" like he cares and knock JJ because he's "soft" while ignoring the actual on court results. My point is, we forgive players lack of production based on optics. How they come across on the court. It "looked" like Bagley couldn't and didn't want to play defense in college.

Willie isn't unproductive. It looks like he should/could be better. Like I said, I get frustrated with Willie too. But he's a 14 pt, 7 rebound guy. Time to move on rather than pull our hair out over a guy who is just going to be solid and not great. No matter what we think his potential is.

PS - Giles had a great game by everyone's account last night in 25 minutes. 14pts and 4 rebounds. If Willie had a 4 rebound game in 25 minutes we'd be roasting him. That's not a knock on Giles. We just like Giles more.
 
Last edited:
That's ridiculous. I love WCS'd personality. I think he is the most interesting guy on the team. Love his hats.

BUT I'm highly critical of a guy who doesn't play hard a lot of nights. His bad games aren't because he misses shots, turns it over, or fouls too much banging the boards or chasing blocks...his bad games are where he doesn't fight for boards, doesn't lift an arm to challeng for what would be an easy block. Just straight let's some bigs punk him out muscle him and he gives in way too easy like a glass jaw boxer. Looks at times like he smoked out before game. We know what he looks like when he puts in the effort. That what he is criticized for, not his personality
Call it what you want. His temperament. His disposition. His lack of fight. That's not something people change at will. What you see is what you get.
 
I think Bogdan is forcing too much offensively. He clearly is in a rut shooting wise which is why I wish he would focus on his other good aspects. Shot isn’t falling? Go post up and draw a foul or score down low. Can’t find room for your shot so take a bad one? Dribble around a little more instead and find the open man. He draws a lot of attention and he’s a very good playmaker. I wish he would focus on that more since his shooting has slumped. He will get out of it eventually but there have been times when he has definitely forced the issue.
I could not disagree more. He's not forcing. He's missing good looks. You have to take good looks when they present themselves instead of passing them up because you have been slumping. A shooter shoots his way out of his slump. Moreover he is creating space before shooting. Launching with a hand in your face or not working the playset correlates to a forced shot. Bogdan is rarely guilty of this. Even when the shot clock goes under 5 he is still creating something. He is incredibly patient and poised and mindful. He is not looking to "get his" at the expense of the team. If anything Bogdan can be guilty of overpassing. I see no evidence what you are saying has merit. The problem that I infer from his play is that he is not healthy. He is too good of a shooter to miss the shots he has been missing. The only logical explanation is he is not right physically.
 
No. Those are your words.

People praise high energy, unproductive guys like Troy Williams because it "looks" or "feels" like he cares and knock JJ because he's "soft" while ignoring the actual on court results. My point is, we forgive players lack of production based on optics. How they come across on the court. It "looked" like Bagley couldn't and didn't want to play defense in college.

Willie isn't unproductive. It looks like he should/could be better. Like I said, I get frustrated with Willie too. But he's a 14 pt, 7 rebound guy. Time to move on rather than pull our hair out over a guy who is just going to be solid and not great. No matter what we think his potential is.

PS - Giles had a great game by everyone's account last night in 25 minutes. 14pts and 4 rebounds. If Willie had a 4 rebound game in 25 minutes we'd be roasting him. That's not a knock on Giles. We just like Giles more.
So basically WCS has made zero improvement over 4 years.
 
Of course he has. That's come with experience. There may be incremental improvements. But looking for consistent effort and high motor isn't happening. He would instantly be an All Star. I'd like that too. Don't hold your breath.

Would love to be wrong.
He really would be an all-star if he had a consistent motor/focus. There are sporadic times in games, sometimes just for 3 consecutive possessions where he dominates the game defensively. He had a stretch towards the end of the Phoenix game where he played the best 45 seconds of basketball of his life. He was also excellent in multiple stretches during the Detroit game last night.

At times he looks like a superstar and it sucks knowing that he could be that superstar if he really wanted to be. Everybody sees it when he's locked in an engaged, he's just a different player. At other times (sometimes for entire games and strings of games) he looks like a lazy unfocused backup big.

Problem for Willie is I just don't think he's wired to be a consistent high motor/high focus guy. Most of the population isn't wired that way. In general high level professional athletes are wired that way (some more than others) but some guys can survive and even make quite the name for themselves just based on talent alone with small glimpses of peak potential (example Andrew Wiggins).

Honestly I don't know what to with him. It's not going to be an easy decision to make for Vlade. Paying him a huge contract is a very risky gamble. On the same token letting him walk for nothing is really not an option, he's just too talented of a player to let leave with nothing in return.
 
Well I really have no idea what we need to do?

Do we trade him before he walks?

Do we wait to try and match the offers he gets?

Do we make him our franchise piece and pay him 20 million?

Well we didn’t want to pay DeMarcus and I don’t see paying WCS anywhere close to 20 million a year.

Hopefully he takes less before someone else thinks he’s the second coming and we get nothing for him seems like a poor option.

Now I would guess if he is worth anything close to what he thinks he’s worth teams should be knocking our door down trying to pick him up for their playoff push.

I guess we will get our answers but I say let’s dangle him out there and see what we are offered for him. Maybe we can get a first round pick and a decent sf for him. Also maybe the front office thinks he can be one of our playoff pieces but if the last parts true why all the talk about Kanter or our continued trying to draft bigs?
 
FWIW, WCS rebounds in last 12 games

14
7
11
13
6
11
12
9
5
17
13
7
How many of these boards were tough in-traffic or out of his area? I don't recall many. Willie in a contract year needed a pep talk from a rookie to get the play we got from him. Whatever it takes I suppose, but it shouldn't take this. A 5 year vet should be giving the pep talk to a 20 year old rookie not vice versa. When we went to Bagley and Giles over Willie and Bjelica we got immediately better. The energy and execution went up. The raw numbers do not always tell the whole story when many rebounds are uncontested and function of playing time. There are too many times when opponents go to the rim that Willie cannot be bothered. There is no challenge when there reasonably needs to be. Everyone sees it but the few remaining holdouts playing contrarian or homer.

By contrast I have seen 100% improvement out of Giles defensively. I am not sure that I have ever seen a player improve so much so fast as Giles defensively! He went from totally lost and unplayable as a result to excellent on many possessions. What Giles has been doing is checking off his man to deny him then get back to his man. And he is getting off his feet quicker. Giles degree of improvement must be considered in context of how bad he was, but he still deserves kudos for the strides he has made over short time period.

I cannot praise Willie similarly because I do not see this suddenly formidable or transformed player. I see pretty much the same guy for five years who dunks when teammates serve it up and shows periodic flashes against an inferior opponent. The same applies to Jackson. They are not talented or tough enough. They are fringe players who benefit from the quality of D-Fox, Buddy and Bogdan, the latter player who is not even playing well. I would love to say Willie is a keeper. But experience tells me if it is not fairly obvious it is unlikely. Now I will not say the book is closed completed. There is a hypothetical scenario where Willie can be part of the team that makes the playoffs. The next 40 games are the most important of his career if he stays with us past the deadline. They are the most important financially and defining who he is as a player in games with potential playoff implications. I would not bet on him but maybe he proves me wrong. For the sake of securing that 8th seed or better I hope he does.
 
Well I really have no idea what we need to do?

Do we trade him before he walks?

Do we wait to try and match the offers he gets?

Do we make him our franchise piece and pay him 20 million?

Well we didn’t want to pay DeMarcus and I don’t see paying WCS anywhere close to 20 million a year.

Hopefully he takes less before someone else thinks he’s the second coming and we get nothing for him seems like a poor option.

Now I would guess if he is worth anything close to what he thinks he’s worth teams should be knocking our door down trying to pick him up for their playoff push.

I guess we will get our answers but I say let’s dangle him out there and see what we are offered for him. Maybe we can get a first round pick and a decent sf for him. Also maybe the front office thinks he can be one of our playoff pieces but if the last parts true why all the talk about Kanter or our continued trying to draft bigs?
While I'm not against a trade, I don't think you automatically need to pay him 20M a year just because he thinks he's elite. You could wait to see what the market value is for him and then decide. Isn't that the whole point of a restricted free agent? While I understand people are down on him, he is absolutely worth keeping at the right price and contract length.
 
How many of these boards were tough in-traffic or out of his area? I don't recall many. Willie in a contract year needed a pep talk from a rookie to get the play we got from him. Whatever it takes I suppose, but it shouldn't take this. A 5 year vet should be giving the pep talk to a 20 year old rookie not vice versa. When we went to Bagley and Giles over Willie and Bjelica we got immediately better. The energy and execution went up. The raw numbers do not always tell the whole story when many rebounds are uncontested and function of playing time. There are too many times when opponents go to the rim that Willie cannot be bothered. There is no challenge when there reasonably needs to be. Everyone sees it but the few remaining holdouts playing contrarian or homer.

By contrast I have seen 100% improvement out of Giles defensively. I am not sure that I have ever seen a player improve so much so fast as Giles defensively! He went from totally lost and unplayable as a result to excellent on many possessions. What Giles has been doing is checking off his man to deny him then get back to his man. And he is getting off his feet quicker. Giles degree of improvement must be considered in context of how bad he was, but he still deserves kudos for the strides he has made over short time period.

I cannot praise Willie similarly because I do not see this suddenly formidable or transformed player. I see pretty much the same guy for five years who dunks when teammates serve it up and shows periodic flashes against an inferior opponent. The same applies to Jackson. They are not talented or tough enough. They are fringe players who benefit from the quality of D-Fox, Buddy and Bogdan, the latter player who is not even playing well. I would love to say Willie is a keeper. But experience tells me if it is not fairly obvious it is unlikely. Now I will not say the book is closed completed. There is a hypothetical scenario where Willie can be part of the team that makes the playoffs. The next 40 games are the most important of his career if he stays with us past the deadline. They are the most important financially and defining who he is as a player in games with potential playoff implications. I would not bet on him but maybe he proves me wrong. For the sake of securing that 8th seed or better I hope he does.
I have to disagree with the assesement that the execution went up with Bagley/Giles vs WCS/Bjelica. The numbers just dont show it. And I know these numbers are imperfect indications of performance and measure many different variables, but if it is so obvious that the team was better with the latter two then at least some of that would be reflected in the numbers. WCS was +17, Bjelica +17, Bagley -4, Giles -7. WCS/B had 10 combined assists, B/G had 4. They played similar enough minutes with 50 combined to 43 combined. The youngsters shot a better percentage in this gsme but that is not usually the case. For all the improvements (and I agree here) Giles and Bagley have made they are simply not as good as WCS/Bjelica. Not yet at least. Clearly they are the future and can be better than those two but they are not there yet.

as far as to how many of WCS rebounds were not gimmes, he had 5 offensive rebounds so at least those were in traffic.
 
Well I really have no idea what we need to do?

Do we trade him before he walks?

Do we wait to try and match the offers he gets?

Do we make him our franchise piece and pay him 20 million?

Well we didn’t want to pay DeMarcus and I don’t see paying WCS anywhere close to 20 million a year.

Hopefully he takes less before someone else thinks he’s the second coming and we get nothing for him seems like a poor option.

Now I would guess if he is worth anything close to what he thinks he’s worth teams should be knocking our door down trying to pick him up for their playoff push.

I guess we will get our answers but I say let’s dangle him out there and see what we are offered for him. Maybe we can get a first round pick and a decent sf for him. Also maybe the front office thinks he can be one of our playoff pieces but if the last parts true why all the talk about Kanter or our continued trying to draft bigs?
A first round pick and a servicable player at any position and I'd pull the trigger, as long as the targeted player we were getting was vetted thoroughly and not just a random toss in. In fact that would be a huge haul.
 
I could not disagree more. He's not forcing. He's missing good looks. You have to take good looks when they present themselves instead of passing them up because you have been slumping. A shooter shoots his way out of his slump. Moreover he is creating space before shooting. Launching with a hand in your face or not working the playset correlates to a forced shot. Bogdan is rarely guilty of this. Even when the shot clock goes under 5 he is still creating something. He is incredibly patient and poised and mindful. He is not looking to "get his" at the expense of the team. If anything Bogdan can be guilty of overpassing. I see no evidence what you are saying has merit. The problem that I infer from his play is that he is not healthy. He is too good of a shooter to miss the shots he has been missing. The only logical explanation is he is not right physically.
There have been plenty of shots that Bogdan has taken that were several feet behind the arc over the past 10 to 15 games. That’s a bad shot to me unless the clock is running out. He’s in a rut shooting the ball and whether it’s due to injury or not we don’t know for sure, but I would like to see him mix it up more. He’s incredibly talented and versatile and I am super glad that he’s on the Kings, but he’s not perfect. He can do better. I for one would like to see him take it to the hoop more often. He settles for a lot of jumpers and can be somewhat predictable in that respect. He’s too good to settle for just jump shots.
 
Does it matter? I'm truly hoping at some point we'll be able to watch a game and not have to find someone to bag on. It's a team effort and the TEAM is looking pretty damned good to me right now.
Good luck with that. This is the Internet and there are people that just live to whine and complain and point fingers. It's in their DNA and the Internet gives them free reign and they are quite prolific in expressing those views and monopolizing any kind of forum.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Well I really have no idea what we need to do?

Do we trade him before he walks?

Do we wait to try and match the offers he gets?

Do we make him our franchise piece and pay him 20 million?

Well we didn’t want to pay DeMarcus and I don’t see paying WCS anywhere close to 20 million a year.

Hopefully he takes less before someone else thinks he’s the second coming and we get nothing for him seems like a poor option.

Now I would guess if he is worth anything close to what he thinks he’s worth teams should be knocking our door down trying to pick him up for their playoff push.

I guess we will get our answers but I say let’s dangle him out there and see what we are offered for him. Maybe we can get a first round pick and a decent sf for him. Also maybe the front office thinks he can be one of our playoff pieces but if the last parts true why all the talk about Kanter or our continued trying to draft bigs?
I'm almost feeling like this. The more I see WCS, the more confused I get about his future with the Kings' organization. I'd love to know Divac's true thoughts on the matter.
 
People used to say the same about Gerald Wallace - and he ended up having a respectable career.

This board is notorious for picking a player to target and it's been WCS. He's not perfect but he is a valuable part of our team right now and he is definitely showing improvement. Are we so rigid that we don't acknowledge that because it goes against the tide of feeling about him?
Like I replied in a previous comment, this is the Internet and there are people that just live to whine and complain and point fingers. It's in their DNA and the Internet gives them free reign and they are quite prolific in expressing those views and monopolizing any kind of forum.

It's been Willie mostly for the last couple years anyway, Jackson took his unfair share of abuse, and of course Joerger and Vlade have been targeted, too. There is not really anything you can do about it. I really don't get rooting for a team and then turning around and constantly attacking some aspect of that team. I get that the Kings have been bottom dwellers for a long time, but this season they really have a chance to start a new era. I know all about rooting for a losing team, been rooting for UK sports for over 45 years now, and during that time UK football has had a handful of decent seasons (two10 win seasons since 1977). But during all that time, I never lived to just berate and tear down the team, players, coaches, etc. There were plenty of long losing streaks, games and seasons, extremely frustrating, but if all I could do was attack the team, I would have found myself another team to root for.

I get tired of defending Willie on here against some of their more ridiculous claims. Willie has improved every year, but I think he could be so much better. He has shown a lot of growth in his 3-1/2 years (yes 3-1/2 not 5!). It's really only about 2 under Joerger's current system.

I think he will continue to get better, but I doubt he will ever reach his full basketball potential because there is so much more to him than just basketball. He has a multi-faceted personality, he does not live for basketball alone. I still think he can be a really good basketball player. He is still figuring things out, adjusting to the game. He has the natural athleticism, but not the natural mind set. I believe that, like physical skills, can be improved upon. Despite what his detractors say and hope for, he has shown a lot more consistency this year. Of course, they will not give him any credit, they focus on and exaggerate shortcomings while they belittle any progress he has made.

I would like to have serious critical discussions of Willie and any and all of the players and even staff. But you can't, because of this handful of posters that have imbedded bias and they exaggerate any and all faults to meet their agenda. It's like that on any forum or anything that allows comments. You should read, and maybe you do, the type of negative stuff people post on sites like Smithsonian, Discover, let alone any of the major news outlets. Yes, I know there is an ignore function, but they are so prolific it just leaves threads full of black holes. Plus, they can see and quote and twist your comments and if you have them blocked you will never know it.

I avoid those kind of people in the real world or if it calls for it, I will let them know in no uncertain terms what I think of them. Can't do that on here, got to play nice with the virtual world members but they can get away with saying things about real people that would get them in trouble with the mods if they said that about a member.

My solution is to limit my time on any of the sites, just let them have at it for the most part. I am really enjoying this season, I have said it is a magical season and it is. I DVR every game, sometimes watch them 2 or 3 times, sometimes delete them right away (Phoenix!). They have made a quantum leap in development as a team, but they have a long ways to go and they will not get there this year and may still be two years away. When I come to these sites on a regular basis, the joy is sucked right out and I wind up PO'd and sometimes just a little depressed by it. So, less time on Internet (probably a good thing anyway) equals more enjoyment of the season the Kings are having.
 
How many of these boards were tough in-traffic or out of his area? I don't recall many. Willie in a contract year needed a pep talk from a rookie to get the play we got from him. Whatever it takes I suppose, but it shouldn't take this. A 5 year vet should be giving the pep talk to a 20 year old rookie not vice versa. When we went to Bagley and Giles over Willie and Bjelica we got immediately better. The energy and execution went up. The raw numbers do not always tell the whole story when many rebounds are uncontested and function of playing time. There are too many times when opponents go to the rim that Willie cannot be bothered. There is no challenge when there reasonably needs to be. Everyone sees it but the few remaining holdouts playing contrarian or homer.

By contrast I have seen 100% improvement out of Giles defensively. I am not sure that I have ever seen a player improve so much so fast as Giles defensively! He went from totally lost and unplayable as a result to excellent on many possessions. What Giles has been doing is checking off his man to deny him then get back to his man. And he is getting off his feet quicker. Giles degree of improvement must be considered in context of how bad he was, but he still deserves kudos for the strides he has made over short time period.

I cannot praise Willie similarly because I do not see this suddenly formidable or transformed player. I see pretty much the same guy for five years who dunks when teammates serve it up and shows periodic flashes against an inferior opponent. The same applies to Jackson. They are not talented or tough enough. They are fringe players who benefit from the quality of D-Fox, Buddy and Bogdan, the latter player who is not even playing well. I would love to say Willie is a keeper. But experience tells me if it is not fairly obvious it is unlikely. Now I will not say the book is closed completed. There is a hypothetical scenario where Willie can be part of the team that makes the playoffs. The next 40 games are the most important of his career if he stays with us past the deadline. They are the most important financially and defining who he is as a player in games with potential playoff implications. I would not bet on him but maybe he proves me wrong. For the sake of securing that 8th seed or better I hope he does.
Really? 5 year vet? That is exactly what I talking about when I say people exaggerate about Willie when it meets their agenda. It's 3-1/2 seasons and only 2 under Joerger's current system. http://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2991282/willie-cauley-stein - See Experience Label 3 Years And really what's your point anyway, why shouldn't a 2nd year player (Giles had a red-shirt season last year, on the team, practiced with the team) be able to offer encouragement to any player, that's just being a good teammate. Heck, there might be a time that Shump or Koufus could use a little encouragement.

You see what your bias tells you, Bagley (-4) and Giles (-7) playing against mostly 2nd unit were not better than Willie (+17) and Bjelica (+17). Please quantify how Harry has gotten 100% better? Over what time frame, one game? Giles has definitely gotten better, but let's see about consistency from him, too. Giles and Bagley are good and have a chance to be really good, but I worry about the hype on here. Some people on here seem to think they are the next LeBron and Durant, that's a lot to live up to. They have a long way to go, yet, just to become really good ball players. I wish people would just be ok with letting Joerger bring them along at the proper pace.

As far as rebounding, again your eyes see what your bias tells you. You will not give credit to Willie for those rebounding stats, they just came to him with no effort on his part. Really? My gosh, numbers like 12, 13, 14, 17, just fell in his lap? It's not like he is averaging 48 minutes a game. He is averaging about 28.5 minutes for the season. During that 12 game stretch, he might have averaged a little over 30 minutes, longest was 37 minutes (13 RB) and shortest was 18 minutes (11 RB).

Time for me to take a break from this site again.
 
I'm almost feeling like this. The more I see WCS, the more confused I get about his future with the Kings' organization. I'd love to know Divac's true thoughts on the matter.
This is the crux of it all with WCS and the horrible criticisms....he just seems soooooo hard to figure out what to do with. Many indications point in direction that he may get his money then just mail it in. Or not and he keeps improving his motor skill and becomes a top 15 center. I have no idea where I'd bet my money on him.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
Good luck with that. This is the Internet and there are people that just live to whine and complain and point fingers. It's in their DNA and the Internet gives them free reign and they are quite prolific in expressing those views and monopolizing any kind of forum.
I've been moderating this board for over 17 years. Nothing surprises me any more. By repeatedly validating the complainers, though, you're just buying into their silliness. If you're being driven away from having a serious discussion, you're giving them way too much power. I've said it probably a hundred times. If someone is that bothersome to you, IGNORE them. Continue your discussion with like-minded fans. If you have the agitators on IGNORE, you won't be tempted to be drawn into their drama. They get very few responses nowadays and most of them have fallen by the wayside.

...
I avoid those kind of people in the real world or if it calls for it, I will let them know in no uncertain terms what I think of them. Can't do that on here, got to play nice with the virtual world members but they can get away with saying things about real people that would get them in trouble with the mods if they said that about a member.

My solution is to limit my time on any of the sites, just let them have at it for the most part. I am really enjoying this season, I have said it is a magical season and it is. I DVR every game, sometimes watch them 2 or 3 times, sometimes delete them right away (Phoenix!). They have made a quantum leap in development as a team, but they have a long ways to go and they will not get there this year and may still be two years away. When I come to these sites on a regular basis, the joy is sucked right out and I wind up PO'd and sometimes just a little depressed by it. So, less time on Internet (probably a good thing anyway) equals more enjoyment of the season the Kings are having.
MOD VOICE: Contrary to what you seem to think, the IGNORE function works very well around here. As far as comments made about "real people" that we mods let people get away with? They aren't talking about the "real people" as they don't know them. They're talking about the public persona they see on their TV screens. When they talk about WCS, they're talking about the starting center for the Sacramento Kings, not the really tall guy who lives down the street and drives the nice car. They don't know that guy.

Don't let the naysayers live rent free in your head. You give them way too much power. They thrive on attention. Deny it and they have NO power.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.