[Game] Kings v Pistons 1/10/19 7pm PT/10pm ET- Time to battle

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VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
I think I'll "that's unfair" your "unfair"

Fans here in Sacramento have always recognized and highly appreciated, even celebrated, players like Evan's, Brockman, and Yogi Stewart (ball boy turn pro).

The other side of that coin is we can sniff out the opposite of that hustle workman lunch pale yeomans attribute and look at the consistent lack of effort with equal disdain. WCS can do what he did today every game but he doesn't for whatever reason
People used to say the same about Gerald Wallace - and he ended up having a respectable career.

This board is notorious for picking a player to target and it's been WCS. He's not perfect but he is a valuable part of our team right now and he is definitely showing improvement. Are we so rigid that we don't acknowledge that because it goes against the tide of feeling about him?
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
"When he comes to play he's something." - D. Christie (No need to say who he's talking about).

Loved seeing Giles and Bagley on the floor at the same time. Give me more. A lot more. Giles is starting to show it on the defensive end, and that's going to get him a lot more playing time.

Has anybody in their entire life ever seen a point guard make more blocks than Fox, especially running down guys on fast breaks to swat the ball? Is he going to start wagging his finger next? Or shaking his head, like "You knew I was behind you, what where you doing?" It's incredible.
 
People used to say the same about Gerald Wallace - and he ended up having a respectable career.

This board is notorious for picking a player to target and it's been WCS. He's not perfect but he is a valuable part of our team right now and he is definitely showing improvement. Are we so rigid that we don't acknowledge that because it goes against the tide of feeling about him?
Welcome back!! Missed you.

Just past the Midway point and the Kings are. 500.

It's a celebration!!!!
 
"When he comes to play he's something." - D. Christie (No need to say who he's talking about).

Loved seeing Giles and Bagley on the floor at the same time. Give me more. A lot more. Giles is starting to show it on the defensive end, and that's going to get him a lot more playing time.

Has anybody in their entire life ever seen a point guard make more blocks than Fox, especially running down guys on fast breaks to swat the ball? Is he going to start wagging his finger next? Or shaking his head, like "You knew I was behind you, what where you doing?" It's incredible.
1st part:I think our bench bigs tonight were more talented than our starters and it was super close.
2nd part:If he (Fox) can just learn how to hit 3s better, then he would be the best overall pg in the league.
 
People used to say the same about Gerald Wallace - and he ended up having a respectable career.

This board is notorious for picking a player to target and it's been WCS. He's not perfect but he is a valuable part of our team right now and he is definitely showing improvement. Are we so rigid that we don't acknowledge that because it goes against the tide of feeling about him?
Kurt Vonnegut coined a term "Granfalloon" in his book Cat's Cradle, it's apropos.

What we have here is a Granfalloon of Willie Haters, who for the most part. are grasping at straws.

Andre Drummond makes $25.5 MM this season. He signed a 5-year $127MM deal.. Willie makes $4.7MM this season and thoroughly outplayed him, but gets mostly backhanded compliments here.
 
Kurt Vonnegut coined a term "Granfalloon" in his book Cat's Cradle, it's apropos.

What we have here is a Granfalloon of Willie Haters, who for the most part. are grasping at straws.

Andre Drummond makes $25.5 MM this season. He signed a 5-year $127MM deal.. Willie makes $4.7MM this season and thoroughly outplayed him, but gets mostly backhanded compliments here.
You know the reason why he gets backhanded compliments, and it almost has everything to do with the very fact that he can on any given night outplay someone like Drummond. Problem is.. does he?

Some of the fans here are always complaining that others are always picking on a player. As someone who often criticizes certain players, I have repeatedly pointed out that consistent criticism is typically levied at those who COULD do a lot more. No one's starting threads to say how Frank Mason sucks, because nobody expects him to do much. Why did I criticize Cousins' lack of post moves? Was it because he was a bad player? Of course not, he's an elite big. But back in his first few years, he would have been so much better if he had a better post game. Why did people bash Ben last time around? Because it looked like he had a ton of potential but he was just not living up to it. The same thing with Willie. Fans criticize because they want more, because they believe that it is within the reach of that player to be that much more.
 
Has anybody in their entire life ever seen a point guard make more blocks than Fox, especially running down guys on fast breaks to swat the ball? Is he going to start wagging his finger next? Or shaking his head, like "You knew I was behind you, what where you doing?" It's incredible.
Prime John Wall hes averaging close to a block a game for like 5 seasons out of his 9 he was extraordinary as well in those chase down situations.
 
You know the reason why he gets backhanded compliments, and it almost has everything to do with the very fact that he can on any given night outplay someone like Drummond. Problem is.. does he?

Some of the fans here are always complaining that others are always picking on a player. As someone who often criticizes certain players, I have repeatedly pointed out that consistent criticism is typically levied at those who COULD do a lot more. No one's starting threads to say how Frank Mason sucks, because nobody expects him to do much. Why did I criticize Cousins' lack of post moves? Was it because he was a bad player? Of course not, he's an elite big. But back in his first few years, he would have been so much better if he had a better post game. Why did people bash Ben last time around? Because it looked like he had a ton of potential but he was just not living up to it. The same thing with Willie. Fans criticize because they want more, because they believe that it is within the reach of that player to be that much more.
I disagree with pretty much all of this... I don't find this to be objective at-all. You've just demonstrated just how unrealistic expectations of Willie are here, basically a fallacy...


"If he's not as good as he is on his best night, every night, he's not good enough for us"


what kinda crap double-standard is that? You know in Liar Liar when Jim Carrey says to the chick "I've had better" thats basically how the granfalloon wishes to treat Willie..


The funny part is there's no guarantee the next guy wont have many of the same issues, and deficiencies at Willie's strengths.

The worst part, this is where your hands are caught in the cookie jar, is that Willie is improving, clearly, and he has been and there's plenty of room for improvement moving forward. You wanna cast this guy aside for nothing? You must not watch much NBA basketball..

The real crux of the issue is that Willie's improving but it's just not fast enough for the granfalloon's liking... It's all about standards, frankly unrealistic ones...

The granfalloon wants the Kings to develop Willie and then let him walk, for no return whatsoever, the whole basis for this is that it's addition by subtraction. Fox's and Bogdan's favorite lob target, Lowball the crap out of him or let him walk for nothing, that's the plan. LOL.


Was Ben only bashed because it seemed like he had potential ?? Pretty sure the high pick they used on him had something to do with it. Sunk Cost..... I hate the blame-game that goes on here, It's like Willie's been framed to be a victim of his own success. Whatever happened to basketball being a team sport??? Why Is Ben McLemore to blame for his flaming out as a lotto pick? it's 100% on him? what part of the equation do the Kings play, the talent evaluators, the people who pulled the trigger on drafting him???? Don't they get paid big $$$$ too???? Why is it people like that are absolved? They knew what they were doing but Ben ****ed it all up on his own volition? Why is Cousins post moves as a 21 year old to blame, and not the FO for surrounding him with crap... This type bs on this forum does make me think that Michael Jordan ruined basketball for a lot of folks, it's not a team game for so many anymore...



as far as being a fan and feeling justified in wanting more, to me this is absurd, this is forces of marketing, consumerism and greed being projected.. I say, call me crazy, but; enjoy the game!

To me this type of 'wanting more' thinking reminds me of an old Chris Rock bit about women complaining because they love to complain. The Kings are crushing expectations this year. They've played competitive ball all season.

the NBA features players and rosters of all shapes and sizes in all sorts of systems with all sorts of strong and weak suitsm and if you find too mcuh success with something teams advanced scouts are watching sending word to change future game-plans, but yeah Willie, who's got a handful of teammates capable of taking over a game, should play the same every night.... THATS FAIR!
 
I disagree with pretty much all of this... I don't find this to be objective at-all. You've just demonstrated just how unrealistic expectations of Willie are here, basically a fallacy...


"If he's not as good as he is on his best night, every night, he's not good enough for us"


what kinda crap double-standard is that? You know in Liar Liar when Jim Carrey says to the chick "I've had better" thats basically how the granfalloon wishes to treat Willie..


The funny part is there's no guarantee the next guy wont have many of the same issues, and deficiencies at Willie's strengths.

The worst part, this is where your hands are caught in the cookie jar, is that Willie is improving, clearly, and he has been and there's plenty of room for improvement moving forward. You wanna cast this guy aside for nothing? You must not watch much NBA basketball..

The real crux of the issue is that Willie's improving but it's just not fast enough for the granfalloon's liking... It's all about standards, frankly unrealistic ones...

The granfalloon wants the Kings to develop Willie and then let him walk, for no return whatsoever, the whole basis for this is that it's addition by subtraction. Fox's and Bogdan's favorite lob target, Lowball the crap out of him or let him walk for nothing, that's the plan. LOL.


Was Ben only bashed because it seemed like he had potential ?? Pretty sure the high pick they used on him had something to do with it. Sunk Cost..... I hate the blame-game that goes on here, It's like Willie's been framed to be a victim of his own success. Whatever happened to basketball being a team sport??? Why Is Ben McLemore to blame for his flaming out as a lotto pick? it's 100% on him? what part of the equation do the Kings play, the talent evaluators, the people who pulled the trigger on drafting him???? Don't they get paid big $$$$ too???? Why is it people like that are absolved? They knew what they were doing but Ben ****ed it all up on his own volition? Why is Cousins post moves as a 21 year old to blame, and not the FO for surrounding him with crap... This type bs on this forum does make me think that Michael Jordan ruined basketball for a lot of folks, it's not a team game for so many anymore...



as far as being a fan and feeling justified in wanting more, to me this is absurd, this is forces of marketing, consumerism and greed being projected.. I say, call me crazy, but; enjoy the game!

To me this type of 'wanting more' thinking reminds me of an old Chris Rock bit about women complaining because they love to complain. The Kings are crushing expectations this year. They've played competitive ball all season.

the NBA features players and rosters of all shapes and sizes in all sorts of systems with all sorts of strong and weak suitsm and if you find too mcuh success with something teams advanced scouts are watching sending word to change future game-plans, but yeah Willie, who's got a handful of teammates capable of taking over a game, should play the same every night.... THATS FAIR!
You're pretty new to the board. You honestly think the fans here have absolved the organization of blame? Seriously? Have you not read the multitude of posts calling for Vlade to be gone? Or bashing Vivek? George Karl?

It's up to you if you wish to continue to turn a blind eye to what is obviously a motor and effort issue. People are not as down on Buddy when he has a bad shooting night because for the most part he's still out there busting his butt. If you disagree with this assessment then there is no common ground and no amount of arguing would change it. I'll leave it to those who are more in touch with stats to point out how Willie could be doing a lot better in rebounding and interior defense. Hardly unrealistic.

I'm not going to judge how you as a fan want to enjoy the team, nor have I, and I'm not going to belittle how you wish to enjoy the team. All I'm saying is, it's not wrong to want the team to do more, to ROOT for the team to even further exceed expectations. Hey, isn't that what the whole personnel moves forum is essentially about? Trading players to improve the team. A poster saying he wants Willie gone due to his lack of rebounding in the game thread, and a poster suggesting a trade including Willie are in essence very similar. It all boils down to obtaining a skillset that is felt to be lacking and crucial on the team.

Is it really consumerism? Is wanting more out of your child consumerism? I don't have the answer to that. Basketball is entertainment though, and consumers of entertainment will often want more. Or every film would get a 5 star rating. That said, who are you to tell such fans to just enjoy the game? Who says they're not?? In the game thread alone you can clearly see the same posters complaining about things simultaneously expressing their excitement at certain plays. You can see the frustration when the Kings lose games, precisely because they are enjoying the good season the team has put together! To assume everyone who criticises the team is a grumpy old fart not enjoying themselves is a very simplistic mindset.

Back to Willie, the Kings are in an admittedly very tough position, where we run a very real risk of either letting Willie walk for nothing or overpaying him only to watch him lose interest in playing hard once he's on a big contract. It would not be the first time that's happened in the NBA.
 
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People used to say the same about Gerald Wallace - and he ended up having a respectable career.

This board is notorious for picking a player to target and it's been WCS. He's not perfect but he is a valuable part of our team right now and he is definitely showing improvement. Are we so rigid that we don't acknowledge that because it goes against the tide of feeling about him?
GW didn't get it going until the Bobcats took him in the expansion draft. Granted, he didn't have the opportunity and playing time that WCS has, but I hope WCS gets it going here rather than somewhere else.
 
The Kings won this game with defense and rebounding. They shot the ball well.
Willie goes out and plays like a high energy guy and gets 14 boards, 5 assists and 2 blocks. When he plays a game like last night against Drummond, it really makes me wonder what he is thinking about in a more typical game.

Yogi is playing well off the bench. Much better than Mason. Big improvement.

Giles is on his way. He is an emotional player and Joerger seems to now recognize that fact. He is fun to watch and seeing him with Bagley is even more fun.

Jackson has a new level of intensity. Buddy and Da Fox are very consistent. Shumpert makes the team better. I would single out Fox and Shumpert for their defense last night. I still yell at Willie every game for standing and watching people make layups.
 
You know the reason why he gets backhanded compliments, and it almost has everything to do with the very fact that he can on any given night outplay someone like Drummond. Problem is.. does he?

Some of the fans here are always complaining that others are always picking on a player. As someone who often criticizes certain players, I have repeatedly pointed out that consistent criticism is typically levied at those who COULD do a lot more. No one's starting threads to say how Frank Mason sucks, because nobody expects him to do much. Why did I criticize Cousins' lack of post moves? Was it because he was a bad player? Of course not, he's an elite big. But back in his first few years, he would have been so much better if he had a better post game. Why did people bash Ben last time around? Because it looked like he had a ton of potential but he was just not living up to it. The same thing with Willie. Fans criticize because they want more, because they believe that it is within the reach of that player to be that much more.
I agree with some of this to a point. I think people on the board getting frustrated and bash players more when they don't like their personality. Both Ben and WCS are killed for personality more than anything. Their basic stats don't warrant the amount of hate they get.

Yes, they are both inconsistent. But no more than most players who aren't super stars. It's just that their base level of performance is lower. Arguing that WCS should have games like he did last night every time is like arguing Harden should score 50+ pts every night because we saw him do it a couple times. That would be silly. Willie getting 20/15 is a bonus game and nice when it happens. Those numbers are going to be put up by Giles or Bagley consistently. That's what I'm looking forward to.
 
I agree with some of this to a point. I think people on the board getting frustrated and bash players more when they don't like their personality. Both Ben and WCS are killed for personality more than anything. Their basic stats don't warrant the amount of hate they get.

Yes, they are both inconsistent. But no more than most players who aren't super stars. It's just that their base level of performance is lower. Arguing that WCS should have games like he did last night every time is like arguing Harden should score 50+ pts every night because we saw him do it a couple times. That would be silly. Willie getting 20/15 is a bonus game and nice when it happens. Those numbers are going to be put up by Giles or Bagley consistently. That's what I'm looking forward to.
Asking Willie to defend the paint and rebound better does not equate to Harden scoring 50. Those are basic things you expect out of your starting big man. No one is asking Willie to average 20-15. But he can certainly do better than half a block per game and he can certainly do better than letting 3 other centers grab 23 boards each in a span of like 2 weeks. One of those guys set a historic all NBA record!!

What we want out of Willie is consistent effort more than anything. Why can he do what he did last night, but not do that most of the time? That has nothing to do with his personality.
 
Interesting quote from Harry that was tweeted by Jason Anderson at the bee:

Harry Giles on
@THEwillieCS15
: "I told him before the game, 'Go out there and be a dog. Be you and make people believe. Let them know who you are.' And that's what he did. ... I saw it. I sensed it. I saw the way he was attacking. I said, 'Frank, man, he attacking them rebounds."
10:52 PM · Jan 10, 2019

Not sure if that says more about willie or harry as our future leader but great that the team is all in together.
 
I thought the Magic looked bad when they came to town. The Pistons were worse. Even on back-to-back without Blake, they still are a crummy team. They don't have enough weapons. They are going nowhere. And nice job taking Luke Kinnard over Donovan (and others)! And any interest I had in Drummond is dead. The guy is fat by 20 pounds. I don't like his apathetic demeanor. We need passion not disinterest. Stanley Johnson is a one way player. Where is the offense?! Drummond is actually similar to Willie in that neither have any leadership. It is not in their DNA. This is another reason to be excited by Giles. He has natural leadership skills.
 
A Willie led fast break has never ended well
This is a "new wrinkle" the team looks to have put in encouraging him to push if he can not find the outlet pass. I don't know how I feel about this. He can beat a slower big and create advantage but when he is going full speed it is likely his cognitive and/or coordination system will become overloaded. If Fox is not available immediately to receive the outlet he will dart to an open spot soon enough and this is when the pass can be made. It is maybe 1 out of 10 times Willie should be going "Ben Simmons mode" when our guards are prevented from getting the outlet pass. In other words 9 out of 10 times there is a better option to bring the ball up the floor.
 
What we want out of Willie is consistent effort more than anything. Why can he do what he did last night, but not do that most of the time? That has nothing to do with his personality.
It has everything to do with personality. It's who he is. Immense physical abilities, but doesn't have the makeup to put it all together. If you asked Willie if he wants to be great or average, he'll say great. It's not the want to that he's lacking. He's not lazy. He's missing a component. We can all see when someone is lacking physically. But you players have to have the right mental makeup as well.
 
I disagree with pretty much all of this... I don't find this to be objective at-all. You've just demonstrated just how unrealistic expectations of Willie are here, basically a fallacy...


"If he's not as good as he is on his best night, every night, he's not good enough for us"


what kinda crap double-standard is that? You know in Liar Liar when Jim Carrey says to the chick "I've had better" thats basically how the granfalloon wishes to treat Willie..


The funny part is there's no guarantee the next guy wont have many of the same issues, and deficiencies at Willie's strengths.

The worst part, this is where your hands are caught in the cookie jar, is that Willie is improving, clearly, and he has been and there's plenty of room for improvement moving forward. You wanna cast this guy aside for nothing? You must not watch much NBA basketball..

The real crux of the issue is that Willie's improving but it's just not fast enough for the granfalloon's liking... It's all about standards, frankly unrealistic ones...

The granfalloon wants the Kings to develop Willie and then let him walk, for no return whatsoever, the whole basis for this is that it's addition by subtraction. Fox's and Bogdan's favorite lob target, Lowball the crap out of him or let him walk for nothing, that's the plan. LOL.


Was Ben only bashed because it seemed like he had potential ?? Pretty sure the high pick they used on him had something to do with it. Sunk Cost..... I hate the blame-game that goes on here, It's like Willie's been framed to be a victim of his own success. Whatever happened to basketball being a team sport??? Why Is Ben McLemore to blame for his flaming out as a lotto pick? it's 100% on him? what part of the equation do the Kings play, the talent evaluators, the people who pulled the trigger on drafting him???? Don't they get paid big $$$$ too???? Why is it people like that are absolved? They knew what they were doing but Ben ****ed it all up on his own volition? Why is Cousins post moves as a 21 year old to blame, and not the FO for surrounding him with crap... This type bs on this forum does make me think that Michael Jordan ruined basketball for a lot of folks, it's not a team game for so many anymore...



as far as being a fan and feeling justified in wanting more, to me this is absurd, this is forces of marketing, consumerism and greed being projected.. I say, call me crazy, but; enjoy the game!

To me this type of 'wanting more' thinking reminds me of an old Chris Rock bit about women complaining because they love to complain. The Kings are crushing expectations this year. They've played competitive ball all season.

the NBA features players and rosters of all shapes and sizes in all sorts of systems with all sorts of strong and weak suitsm and if you find too mcuh success with something teams advanced scouts are watching sending word to change future game-plans, but yeah Willie, who's got a handful of teammates capable of taking over a game, should play the same every night.... THATS FAIR!
He looks like he doesn't play hard every night. Maybe this is part of his sickle cell thing. I prefer that to him just not having his heart into games. When he shows up and plays hard he can be awesome and has a huge impact on the game. Mistakes or missed shots are fine. That's not what bothers ppl. It's his lack of fight and energy (not challenging guys at rim, watching rebounds bounce in front of him) that makes ppl frustrated. Maybe taking nights off is ok to you but for me effort is the one thing that should be there every night. That is always in a players control.

Maybe I'll start taking it easy at work and when my coworkers or boss complain I'll just say working hard isn't my best skill.
 
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I agree with some of this to a point. I think people on the board getting frustrated and bash players more when they don't like their personality. Both Ben and WCS are killed for personality more than anything. Their basic stats don't warrant the amount of hate they get.

Yes, they are both inconsistent. But no more than most players who aren't super stars. It's just that their base level of performance is lower. Arguing that WCS should have games like he did last night every time is like arguing Harden should score 50+ pts every night because we saw him do it a couple times. That would be silly. Willie getting 20/15 is a bonus game and nice when it happens. Those numbers are going to be put up by Giles or Bagley consistently. That's what I'm looking forward to.
That's ridiculous. I love WCS'd personality. I think he is the most interesting guy on the team. Love his hats.

BUT I'm highly critical of a guy who doesn't play hard a lot of nights. His bad games aren't because he misses shots, turns it over, or fouls too much banging the boards or chasing blocks...his bad games are where he doesn't fight for boards, doesn't lift an arm to challeng for what would be an easy block. Just straight let's some bigs punk him out muscle him and he gives in way too easy like a glass jaw boxer. Looks at times like he smoked out before game. We know what he looks like when he puts in the effort. That what he is criticized for, not his personality
 
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It has everything to do with personality. It's who he is. Immense physical abilities, but doesn't have the makeup to put it all together. If you asked Willie if he wants to be great or average, he'll say great. It's not the want to that he's lacking. He's not lazy. He's missing a component. We can all see when someone is lacking physically. But you players have to have the right mental makeup as well.
To be clear people dont criticize Wille because they dont like his personality. Its solely his effort or perceived lack of it. Maybe you can argue that's a trait, but that's not a major make up of who the dude is or his total personality. When you say ppl attacking him because his "personality" you saying the whole package is what they dont like and not the 1 chararistic or trait.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Bogs just hasn't played very well for several games. Yes, he certainly had a huge shot against the Lakers, but overall he's been very mediocre. The report is that his big toe has been really hurting him for a while now, and both Christie and Reynolds agree that he's lost a half a step due to the toe and because of it he's just not getting space from defenders. Even his standstill shooting is off, which is understandable. If you tried jumping and you're big toe hurt like hell you wouldn't have the concentration you normally would. The Kings were 6-5 with Bogs out of the lineup at the beginning of the season. Bagley is back with his defense, rebounding and added offense. Giles is stepping up in a big way. Jackson is playing better. Is it time to sit Bogs to totally get that toe right so that we can see a healthy Bogdanovic? I'd like to sit him, even if it's until the end of the All Star break. Bodies are funny things. If you begin to compensate physically from a toe, all of a sudden other parts may start breaking down. In any case, I don't particularly like seeing a shell-of-a-Bogs running around on the court.
 
Bogs just hasn't played very well for several games. Yes, he certainly had a huge shot against the Lakers, but overall he's been very mediocre. The report is that his big toe has been really hurting him for a while now, and both Christie and Reynolds agree that he's lost a half a step due to the toe and because of it he's just not getting space from defenders. Even his standstill shooting is off, which is understandable. If you tried jumping and you're big toe hurt like hell you wouldn't have the concentration you normally would. The Kings were 6-5 with Bogs out of the lineup at the beginning of the season. Bagley is back with his defense, rebounding and added offense. Giles is stepping up in a big way. Jackson is playing better. Is it time to sit Bogs to totally get that toe right so that we can see a healthy Bogdanovic? I'd like to sit him, even if it's until the end of the All Star break. Bodies are funny things. If you begin to compensate physically from a toe, all of a sudden other parts may start breaking down. In any case, I don't particularly like seeing a shell-of-a-Bogs running around on the court.
I don't think a big toe injury would warrant sitting out until the AS break unless it's serious. While Bogdanovic has been playing poorly as of late, we're much better off with a bad Bogdanovic than with no Bogdanovic.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
I don't think a big toe injury would warrant sitting out until the AS break unless it's serious. While Bogdanovic has been playing poorly as of late, we're much better off with a bad Bogdanovic than with no Bogdanovic.
It does sound serious though. If he can heal up in a couple of weeks, so be it. No need for "load management.":) As Christie has said, a big toe injury may sound unserious, but it isn't if you're playing professional basketball on it.
 
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