Kings to Las Vegas?? hmmmm....

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#1
I was in Las Vegas this past week at a convention. On two occasions I sat next to locals, one a prominent doctor the other a local big wig in the security industry. The subject started with the Maloof's and the Palms.

First, both have confirmed the Maloof's are selling the Palms, for a likely very tidy profit. The Maloof's are building a hotel tower and a condo tower with Phil buying a 3000 sq.ft. penthouse in one.

Then we got to the Kings. Both, on different days, said very matter-of-factly that the Kings would be in Las Vegas "in a few years". I countered that David Stern and the NBA wouldn't allow it because of the gambling angle. Both said that local powers are busy with plans to work around the gambling issue that would satisfy the NBA.

One said the sale of the Palms "probably" is to help the Maloof's finance a new arena in Vegas. Without a new arena in Sacramento, the Kings will have to leave to get a competitive arena. The lack of local hotel rooms prevents the Kings from getting the All Star game now. That plus no new arena and I seriously believe the Kings will have to leave Sacramanto.

I don't want them to leave but look at the marketing and economics delemma they face. And with a top 5-6 team every year there would be no shortage of suitors/cities led by Las Vegas. Basketball is a business. Even with the greatest fan base in pro sports, economics will eventually dictate the business.

So Sacramento, you will only have yourself to blame if the Kings leave and you revert back to the "Cow Town" that Charles Barkley once called you, and your regional, national and international attraction drops to near zero.

Remember, I'm only the messenger in this and an objective viewer of other inputs. :)
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#4
Oh geez. Again?

Couldn't this wait until the off-season? These rumors are going to float around forever and, quite frankly, I don't give any of them any credence.

Sorry, CruzDude, but a couple of Vegas big-wigs seeming to think the Kings are going to move to Las Vegas doesn't make it fact.

This is mere speculation based on nothing but speculation and more speculation. And it's just fodder for the rumor mill.

------------------------------------

In my personal and humble opinion, every time someone starts one of these threads we get a couple of more people who tend to buy into it and pretty much give up on the idea of the Kings getting a new arena here. The Maloofs have said time and time again that they like Sacramento, they want to stay here, etc. Why isn't that good enough?

They are shrewd businessmen. They are not going to move a very good franchise out of Sacramento unless they have absolutely no other choice.

Quite frankly, people don't go to Vegas to see sportings events. They go to gamble. If you own a casino, do you want your patrons at your tables gambling or do you want them in an arena?
 
#5
Vegas doesn't have the local (and i stress LOCAL) population to support a pro team. The people who fly in to gamble aren't going to fill out the attendance for the pro teams. Go outside of the strip, and Vegas is just another dusy Nevada town.
 
#7
VF21 said:
Quite frankly, people don't go to Vegas to see sportings events. They go to gamble. If you own a casino, do you want your patrons at your tables gambling or do you want them in an arena?
Good Call.......they are the ones that run the city! But i think a pro team is likely to show up in Vegas someday. Just hope its not the Kings!
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#8
This has been discussed a gazillion times. There are reasons there aren't any pro teams in Vegas right now and no reason to assume there ever will be.
 
#9
CruzDude said:
So Sacramento, you will only have yourself to blame if the Kings leave and you revert back to the "Cow Town" that Charles Barkley once called you, and your regional, national and international attraction drops to near zero.

Remember, I'm only the messenger in this and an objective viewer of other inputs. :)
So you're only the messanger who can't resist taking a cheap shot at the city of Sacramento? I don't live there myself, but I respect the citizens of Sactown and the surrounding areas. They give the Kings some of the best fan support in the league. You will be hard pressed to find better fans in any other NBA city. Do you really think the average fan has that much control over the negotiating process between the city and the Maloofs. How dare you blame the good fans of Sacramento.


BTW: I'm not buying your B.S. story from your trip in Vegas. Sounds like such a unreliable piece of hearsay should be posted on ESPN.
 
#10
PixelPusher said:
Vegas doesn't have the local (and i stress LOCAL) population to support a pro team. The people who fly in to gamble aren't going to fill out the attendance for the pro teams. Go outside of the strip, and Vegas is just another dusy Nevada town.
This isn't necessarily true. Vegas is actually the fastest growing city in the US at present and probly does have the population to support a pro sports team without the coasino angle.

Additionally, although I do think this is heresay i also think it's a viable topic that I have no problem discussing and rediscussing. I think there are so many angles to broach in regards to the importance of sports teams to cities, the arguable revitalizing effects of a downtown arena, the befuddling local politics personality conflicts and power plays that have surrounded the failed attempts at a new arena, and even the viability of public financed arenas in general. I think its a tremendous topic and would love to see it discussed in depth here. I know there have been a few threads about this in the past but they all seemed to go in the direction of either blaming the rich owners for holding the city hostage or defending the rich owners from those attacks. I hope this thread doesn't go that direction.

I for one think that it is quite viable to beleive the Kings will leave Sacramento in the next five years if a new arena deal is not reached with a decent amount of public financing. I also think this would be a horrendous blow to the city.
 
#11
ovrush said:
This isn't necessarily true. Vegas is actually the fastest growing city in the US at present and probly does have the population to support a pro sports team without the coasino angle.

Additionally, although I do think this is heresay i also think it's a viable topic that I have no problem discussing and rediscussing. I think there are so many angles to broach in regards to the importance of sports teams to cities, the arguable revitalizing effects of a downtown arena, the befuddling local politics personality conflicts and power plays that have surrounded the failed attempts at a new arena, and even the viability of public financed arenas in general. I think its a tremendous topic and would love to see it discussed in depth here. I know there have been a few threads about this in the past but they all seemed to go in the direction of either blaming the rich owners for holding the city hostage or defending the rich owners from those attacks. I hope this thread doesn't go that direction.

I for one think that it is quite viable to beleive the Kings will leave Sacramento in the next five years if a new arena deal is not reached with a decent amount of public financing. I also think this would be a horrendous blow to the city.

If the Kings leave Sacramento then I'll stop watching the NBA. The Kings belong in Sactown, at some point the greed and politics have to stop. It's sickening to even think of the Kings leaving.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#12
Team Dime said:
If the Kings leave Sacramento then I'll stop watching the NBA. The Kings belong in Sactown, at some point the greed and politics have to stop. It's sickening to even think of the Kings leaving.
Its entirely up to Sacramento. I have absolutely no doubt that if Sacto matched the offer from another city, the Maloofs would much rather stay. In fact I have no doubts that even if they got a somewhat worse offer from Sacto than another ciy, they still stay. Only by stonewalling and playign an idiotic game of brinkmanship does Sacto lose the Kings. Unfortunately that seems to be the case thus far -- classic and false sense of entitlement going on. A lot of denial, and if it keeps up for another year or two...
 
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#13
Bricklayer said:
Its entirely up to Sacramento. I have absolutely no doubt that if the Kings matched the offer from another city, the Maloofs would much rather stay. In fact I have no doubts that even if they got a somewhat worse offer from Sacto than another ciy, they still stay. Only by stonewalling and playign an idiotic game of brinkmanship does Sacto lose the Kings. Unfortunately that seems to be the case thus far -- classic and false sense of entitlement going on. A lot of denial, and if it keeps up for another year or two...
That is being done by the politicians in city hall, not by the average fan right? It seems to me that the average fan would give almost anything to keep the Kings in Sacramento. My point is that like always in sports, when things go wrong, it's the little guy (the fans) who end up getting screwed in the end.
 
#16
Team Dime said:
That is being done by the politicians in city hall, not by the average fan right? It seems to me that the average fan would give almost anything to keep the Kings in Sacramento. My point is that like always in sports, when things go wrong, it's the little guy (the fans) who end up getting screwed in the end.
No - it's as much the locals as it is the politicians. See this poll:
http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/basketball/kings/story/12654753p-13508147c.html

People don't think the Kings need a new arena. That's nice and all, but the question isn't whether they "need" a new arena. We can either build a new arena or we can let the team move. The CSUS poll says that people think there's a third choice; just don't build an arena. That choice doesn't exist - and the quicker people deal with that the better.

At this stage, people's opinions about whether the Kings will move to Las Vegas or St. Louis or Kansas City are worth exactly what you paid for them.
 
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#17
This is from Marc Stein's BSPN column:


Updated: April 8, 2005, 11:49 AM ET

FAQ check: You've got questions; we've got answers



By Marc Stein, ESPN.com
Marc Stein Archive




The league's marketing efforts get easier when guys such as Carmelo Anthony first become stars in college.





Fears of unsafe driving conditions in the Northeast at the time forced us to postpone Stern's visit to ESPN's Bristol campus until today, so your humble correspondent combed through the 1,400-plus original chat questions sent in for Le Commish and picked out the Elite Eight.

The eight topics, that is, which ESPN.com users wanted to ask Stern about most ... with the answers coming instead from Stein based on interviews with various league and team insiders.

Those answers:

Q: Can we avoid a lockout for next season, or is the basketball world ignoring what has happened in hockey?

A: The latest buzz from both sides is remarkably upbeat.

Turns out it's a misconception to think that it's unlikely we'd see an agreement hammered out before the season ends because folks are too consumed by the season for serious bargaining. To the contrary, the sides have meeting regularly for talks since the All-Star break.

Which can only be a good thing with less than three months to go before the current deal expires. It's clear that neither party wants a lockout for even one day in July, knowing how negatively fans react to the mere mention of the word. The NBA's owners and players are thus drawing strong motivation to agree from the NHL's fate, but the biggest source of optimism is that neither side is seeking major alterations to the current system. Unlike the summer 1998, when the sides were so far apart philosophically that the lockout eventually stretched into January, no one is proposing a total redo.

As a result, as long as the talks continue, there's a real chance another half-decade of labor peace can be secured by the NBA Finals tip-off. Mercifully.

Q: Are the rumors true about an age limit coming in soon?

A: Contrary to popular belief, the union hasn't agreed to this yet.

The feeling remains, though, that the players will eventually give in here because it's the most palatable concession they can make in negotiations -- since it wouldn't affect anyone currently playing in the league and likely would create a few extra jobs for veterans.

Stern, for example, wants a more stringent luxury tax than the one currently in effect, penalizing owners who exceed a certain payroll threshold by at least $2 for every dollar over the threshold. The owners, meanwhile, want the maximum length of guaranteed contracts to be shortened from the current six or seven years to three or four. Those are changes the union resists with considerably more conviction than age restrictions.

And let's be honest. For all the amazing preps-to-pros success stories the NBA has reveled in – Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady and LeBron James for starters – an age restriction would obviously be a massive boost to the sagging-in-quality college game. Which would thereby result in more prepared prospects matriculating to the big leagues, while also providing the two years of pre-NBA player marketing Stern's business used to benefit from.

Q: How long do we have to wait before we see the NBA adopt a baseball-style, affiliated minor-league system?

A: This is another subject where some long-standing premonitions are being dispelled. Because there has never been a baseball-style minor league affiliated with the NBA, and because the threat of being sent down to the minors would be such a blow to the egos of basketball players who've never had to face that prospect, it was natural to presume the union would never agree to the minor-league concept.

Take a kid like Darko Milicic, who has already suffered plenty under Larry Brown, having been banished to a very public residency on the Pistons' bench while James and Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony play lead roles for their teams. Do we really want to see Darko dispatched to Roanoke or Huntsville now? What would that do to his confidence?

Sources on both sides, however, indicate that this is another concession the owners are likely to secure from the union, thanks to a couple of key provisions. The NBA wants to expand the NBDL to 15 teams, with two NBA clubs sharing each minor-league club -- but with the crucial caveat that no player with more than three seasons of service time could be sent down. Veterans, in other words, would be protected from minor-league assignments.

The other key? First-round draftees such as Darko, if sent down, would still earn their NBA salaries. Combined with the age restrictions, it all sounds promising. Youngsters would have a place to earn minutes and learn the game instead of relying solely on practice time that never comes close to replicating game conditions.

Q: What does the NBA think of baseball's steroid controversy?

A: Stern is said to want a more stringent substance-abuse policy than the program in place, but not because of a steroid threat. Steroid use is already banned by the NBA, and the consensus view is that it's not an issue in hoop circles. Of far greater concern to Stern is marijuana use, and reaching terms with the union on tougher (and more frequent) testing figures to be one of the stickier subjects in collective bargaining.

Q: Why can't the league make All-Star Saturday as exciting as it used to be?

A: Our news here is not encouraging. By all accounts, the league was thrilled with All-Star Saturday, even though the only thrilling stuff (in our view) came from Josh Smith (and the one Amare Stoudemire dunk set up by that header from Steve Nash). So don't expect any significant changes to the format.









Q: Will we ever see an NBA franchise in Las Vegas?

A: The collapse of the latest arena proposal in Sacramento -- combined with the Chris Webber trade and Joe and Gavin Maloof's business interests on the Strip -- have made this a timely topic again. Panicky subjects of Kings Nation undoubtedly fear that the Maloof Brothers are planning to move the franchise to Vegas if Stern allows it.

There is no evidence to suggest the Maloofs are planning a Vegas move, but you can count on this: The NBA will have a Vegas franchise someday. Stern remains staunchly against putting NBA basketball in a state that allows gambling on NBA games, and he's not going to budge from that position. He allows the WNBA's Connecticut Sun to play at the Mohegan Sun casino only because betting on NBA or WNBA games is not permitted in Connecticut.

A growing majority of owners, however, want to see a Vegas franchise because the market has so much potential. We've already seen Stern relent and allow summer-league play in Sin City. Stern has no interest in further U.S. expansion, but eventually the owners will persuade him to let an ailing franchise relocate there.
 

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#18
Team Dime said:
You will be hard pressed to find better fans in any other NBA city. Do you really think the average fan has that much control over the negotiating process between the city and the Maloofs. How dare you blame the good fans of Sacramento.


BTW: I'm not buying your B.S. story from your trip in Vegas. Sounds like such a unreliable piece of hearsay should be posted on ESPN.
First, read where I clearly say "...the best fan base in pro sports...." I was a season ticket holder for 7 years until moving away. All fans want a new arena but they have little control as you say. Therefore, was not my thread addressed to the politicians of the area and not the fans?

Second, you are entitled to your opinion. But were you there with us when we had these conversations? Did you hear what we talked about? Didn't think so. BTW, sure it is hearsay, but they too had their opinions and had not two different professional people said the same thing I would not have bothered to make the input.

The input was made at this time because thats when I heard it. Maybe someone will go there in June or July and talk to some long time residents who know the Maloofs and update us all, eh?
 
#19
Bricklayer said:
Its entirely up to Sacramento. I have absolutely no doubt that if the Kings matched the offer from another city, the Maloofs would much rather stay. In fact I have no doubts that even if they got a somewhat worse offer from Sacto than another ciy, they still stay. Only by stonewalling and playign an idiotic game of brinkmanship does Sacto lose the Kings. Unfortunately that seems to be the case thus far -- classic and false sense of entitlement going on. A lot of denial, and if it keeps up for another year or two...
Exactly^, If Sacramento really had the best fans in the league they would actually get behind the idea of an arena which everybody from OSHA, to structural engineers, to David Stern say is neccesity in the next 5 years. Even on our own Homer radio station 90% of the calls are about how the Kings/Maloofs don't need(or even deserve) a new arena. No, if Sacramento does lose the Kings it will be because "They"(The city, the politicians, and even the suddenly quiet "Fans"), deserve it. Also CruzDude has been posting here long enough to get the benefit of the doubt about his story, I highly doubt he's lying about it.
 
#20
CruzDude said:
First, read where I clearly say "...the best fan base in pro sports...." I was a season ticket holder for 7 years until moving away. All fans want a new arena but they have little control as you say. Therefore, was not my thread addressed to the politicians of the area and not the fans?

Second, you are entitled to your opinion. But were you there with us when we had these conversations? Did you hear what we talked about? Didn't think so. BTW, sure it is hearsay, but they too had their opinions and had not two different professional people said the same thing I would not have bothered to make the input.

The input was made at this time because thats when I heard it. Maybe someone will go there in June or July and talk to some long time residents who know the Maloofs and update us all, eh?
You say your thread was addressed to the politicians, but it sounded like a shot at everyone when you said: "So Sacramento, you will only have yourself to blame if the Kings leave and you revert back to the "Cow Town" that Charles Barkley once called you, and your regional, national and international attraction drops to near zero."



I'm not debating whether or not it's true what those guys said to you in Vegas. The point is, it doesn't matter what they said. Do you really think they know for sure what is going on or have any actual control over it? It doesn't matter what some guys in Vegas say. It is hearsay. You'd be better off just taking any idiot off the street and asking him his opinion on the matter.
 
#21
KP said:
Exactly^, If Sacramento really had the best fans in the league they would actually get behind the idea of an arena which everybody from OSHA, to structural engineers, to David Stern say is neccesity in the next 5 years. Even on our own Homer radio station 90% of the calls are about how the Kings/Maloofs don't need(or even deserve) a new arena. No, if Sacramento does lose the Kings it will be because "They"(The city, the politicians, and even the suddenly quiet "Fans"), deserve it. Also CruzDude has been posting here long enough to get the benefit of the doubt about his story, I highly doubt he's lying about it.
Isn't only natural to want arenas to be privately funded instead of using taxpayer money? I don't think anyone in any city would jump at the change to have their tax dollars used to build arenas. In most cases it's something that happens as a result of negotiations where the fans are presented with no other choice.
 
#22
I didn't read all the replies here so maybe someone already said this. If The Kings moved to Las Vegas EVERY sports book would have to agree to no LEGAL betting on the NBA PERIOD!! That will NEVER happen. Way too much money involved. And, that outways the money that the Kings would bring. If Sacramento screws the pooch so bad and we lose The Kings, it won't be to Las Vegas.

Also as someone else said, the LOCAL population isn't big enough to fill every seat, every game. I just don't see it happening. I don't think they'd have as much support as they would have here. Don't you think if a team could there woulud already be a team there by now?
 
#24
Team Dime said:
Isn't only natural to want arenas to be privately funded instead of using taxpayer money? I don't think anyone in any city would jump at the change to have their tax dollars used to build arenas. In most cases it's something that happens as a result of negotiations where the fans are presented with no other choice.
Exactly the opinion I'm talking about^. You're a big time die-hard Kings fan and even you're hesitant, and you aren't alone in your opinion. In fact a lot of Kings fans want to debate this issue not to mention people that aren't even Kings fans at all. However there is a lot of Cities that would disagree with your statement, They will build the Kings a new Arena with their own money and hand the Kings the keys to the state of the art Arena for nothing in return, or at least nothing other than a bad-*** team that gives the whole town tons of recognition, and entertainment, Not to mention an economic boom in the area(see Natomas). Hey I don't disagree with you, but the Arena is done even from a safety standpoint, that is not debatable. If we want to keep the Kings we will have to pay for it, it's that simple. The league has already said they will back the Team if they have to leave. The state of Arco has gotten that ridiculous. It is natural to want it privately funded and haggle, but not to the point of losing the team.(which we are almost at by the way)
 
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#25
I think if a team was every let to play in Las Vegas first off, and if it happened to be the Kings, the owners would soon learn how much they miss Sacramento. See, the Kings are the only attraction here, not in Las Vegas. The main attractions in Vegas are Casino's, Alcohol, Strippers and Hookers. After all that you don't have any money left to buy tickets. lol
 
#26
Get the arena built and we don't have to listen to these rumors. As long as the city lets this arena issue stay unsettled, this is going to happen.

As for listening to the 2 guys from Vegas, big deal. Blow hards who talk too much in Vegas (or any other city) rarely have anything concrete backing it up. Can you imagine any one of the Maloofs going around sharing their business plans with these guys?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#27
CruzDude said:
The input was made at this time because thats when I heard it. Maybe someone will go there in June or July and talk to some long time residents who know the Maloofs and update us all, eh?
The real point is that the Maloofs don't put their real business on the street any more than Geoff Petrie does. You cannot base a real opinion on anything you've heard from someone supposedly in the know...
 
#28
Bricklayer said:
Its entirely up to Sacramento. I have absolutely no doubt that if the Kings matched the offer from another city, the Maloofs would much rather stay. In fact I have no doubts that even if they got a somewhat worse offer from Sacto than another ciy, they still stay. Only by stonewalling and playign an idiotic game of brinkmanship does Sacto lose the Kings. Unfortunately that seems to be the case thus far -- classic and false sense of entitlement going on. A lot of denial, and if it keeps up for another year or two...
I third or fourth that I lost count. Fact is the GIANTS were all but moving to Florida before they built PacBell. I think this is gonna go down to the same wire. Maybe even an owner change who knows.

Why would STERN or the owners ever approve an move of a team that sells out everygame and has for who knows how long? (stat gurus help me here)

For example, would the league rather have a team in charlotte, NO, Atlanta that has no attendance. These are the teams that should be moving to LV. I think because we are great fans that the Kings won't be going far.

As far as the Maloofs selling the Palms. Aren't they adding like a zillion more rooms and space? This is all rumors and I hate rumors.
 
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#29
KP said:
Exactly the opinion I'm talking about^. You're a big time die-hard Kings fan and even you're hesitant, and you aren't alone in your opinion. In fact a lot of Kings fans want to debate this issue not to mention people that aren't even Kings fans at all. However there is a lot of Cities that would disagree with your statement, They will build the Kings a new Arena with their own money and hand the Kings the keys to the state of the art Arena for nothing in return, or at least nothing other than a bad-*** team that gives the whole town tons of recognition, and entertainment, Not to mention an economic boom in the area(see Natomas). Hey I don't disagree with you, but the Arena is done even from a safety standpoint, that is not debatable. If we want to keep the Kings we will have to pay for it, it's that simple. The league has already said they will back the Team if they have to leave. The state of Arco has gotten that ridiculous. It is natural to want it privately funded and haggle, but not to the point of losing the team.(which we are almost at by the way)
I don't live anywhere near Sactown. What exactly is so bad about Arco? I only hear that they need a new arena, but I don't know why exactly.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#30
The arena is old. It was cheaply built and does not have a lot of the amenities, such as a good number of luxury booths, the newer arenas have. In addition, the concourses are narrow, the roof leaks, etc.

The city is NOT close to losing the Kings, although the local daily newspaper likes to make it seem that way. With the exception of Ailene Voisin, who has written some really GOOD articles about the need for the new arena, Stern's support of Sacramento retaining the Kings franchise, etc., some writers - like Marcos Breton and R.E. Graswich - seem to be hell-bent on driving the Kings away.