Kings search for a small forward continues.

[JB_kings]

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/10/07/3086006/kings-search-for-small-forward.html

Knew this one had to be coming after the mysterious start of Marcus Landry. I knew Donte blew it when he showed up at 260 poounds and lost all his explosiveness. And Casspi thinks he should be the #1 scoring option. Say what you want about Westphal, but if you aren't going to show up in shape to do the job and you aren't doing what you are asked, you aren't getting the starting nod.

 

[DocHolliday]

Let's be clear though. Donte hasn't really "blown it". His weight gain is all muscle from all reports. I haven't seen him, but everyone who has, says he's "buff". What did people expect out of a guy that is 6' 11" anyway?? They didn't think he might go through a filling out spurt? Hell Artest is 6; 7" and plays between 250lbs-260lbs. They ddin't think a 6' 11" guy might get bigger than 230lbs?

Punishing the guy for working out hard, and his body filling out essentially catching up to his height, well that's just not right in my opinion.

 

[mac]

Let's be clear though. Donte hasn't really "blown it". His weight gain is all muscle from all reports. I haven't seen him, but everyone who has, says he's "buff". What did people expect out of a guy that is 6' 11" anyway?? They didn't think he might go through a filling out spurt? Hell Artest is 6; 7" and plays between 250lbs-260lbs. They ddin't think a 6' 11" guy might get bigger than 230lbs?

Punishing the guy for working out hard, and his body filling out essentially catching up to his height, well that's just not right in my opinion.

Yeah. Donte's weight gain would have been more beneficial had we not added so much depth in terms of big men. The last thing we need now is another PF. The difference between Artest and Greene though, is that Artest had a pretty good post game. Even as a 3 we could afford to throw him the ball in the post, but that's not going to happen very much with Donte. He's better suited being quicker and more explosive, hitting outside and midrange shots.

 

[Chupacabra]

Let's be clear though. Donte hasn't really "blown it". His weight gain is all muscle from all reports. I haven't seen him, but everyone who has, says he's "buff". What did people expect out of a guy that is 6' 11" anyway?? They didn't think he might go through a filling out spurt? Hell Artest is 6; 7" and plays between 250lbs-260lbs. They ddin't think a 6' 11" guy might get bigger than 230lbs?

Punishing the guy for working out hard, and his body filling out essentially catching up to his height, well that's just not right in my opinion.

I agree with both sides of this to an extent. If Donte isnt physically capable, quick enough or mobile enough, to guard opposing small forwards then he isnt fit to be a starting small forward for any team. At the same time you cant blame him for gaining muscle. He was a skinny 6'11 guy. The problem seems to be best classified as Donte growing out of his position.

 

[JB_kings]

Maybe he didn't have control over it, but he didn't do himself any favors by putting on bulk. He got on the court by being able to defend the shooting guards and small forwards last season. The fact that he's taking it off quickly means he did have some pudge in there and shouldn't have showed up at 260. He'll take most of it off, but he will have to work his way back to where he was instead of showing up ready to compete for the open job. I think that defines "blew it" in my book. At least for now...

 

[funkykingston]

One thing that I wonder about with the SF spot is how the exit interviews went with this team, assuming Westphal had them. One of the biggest goals of talking with players just after the season ends is to discuss what you want from them when they come back after the summer.

PW should have laid out exactly what he wanted from Casspi and Greene and what they should work on and improve in their games to fill the role he needs them to fill or to make a leap forward into the bigger role that they desire.

Donte shouldn't have shown up bigger and only then discovered it wasn't what the coaches wanted from him. And Israeli team experience notwithstanding, Casspi shouldn't have shown up thinking he'd be a primary option on offense.

Now, it's possible that Westphal did lay out things in a specific manner for both guys and they didn't listen (and in that case his displeasure with his pair of young SFs is understandable and warranted) but if he didn't give guys a clear direction it's hard to be upset after the fact.

In sports, as in nearly everything else in life, good communication is key.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Damn. Can't believe I was right about Casspi.....and it was just one scrimmage and summer league play. Sometimes you don't like being right.

 

[beb0p]

The article doesn't say the Kings management is displeased in any way that Donte bulked up, I tend to think that bulking up is exactly what they want out of him. They just aren't sure if he is a full-time SF or a combo forward, fair enough, that has been the question since his rookie year so there's nothing new there. He can possibly become an oversized 6'11, 260 lbs beast of a SF with quickness and power or he may turn out to be a Jeff Green-like stretch 4 or a Tim Thomas-like combo forward. We don't know, and that's the point of the article. This is going to be evident once Donte gets PT.

I don't believe for a minute that Marcus Landry is in the running for a starting spot, at least not long-term. PW likes to shake things up before the season just to send a message out there. Remember Mason at SF? Sean May starting at C? I just think of this as a message to Casspi and Greene, "Don't assume one of you are going to be the starter."

 

[annihilator_33]

is anyone else getting that odd uncomfortable feeling that Antoine Wright may start at small forward?

 

[DocHolliday]

The article doesn't say the Kings management is displeased in any way that Donte bulked up, I tend to think that bulking up is exactly what they want out of him. They just aren't sure if he is a full-time SF or a combo forward, fair enough, that has been the question since his rookie year so there's nothing new there. He can possibly become an oversized 6'11, 260 lbs beast of a SF with quickness and power or he may turn out to be a Jeff Green-like stretch 4 or a Tim Thomas-like combo forward. We don't know, and that's the point of the article. This is going to be evident once Donte gets PT.

I don't believe for a minute that Marcus Landry is in the running for a starting spot, at least not long-term. PW likes to shake things up before the season just to send a message out there. Remember Mason at SF? Sean May starting at C? I just think of this as a message to Casspi and Greene, "Don't assume one of you are going to be the starter."

One thing I don't agree with is that Landry doesn't have a true shot at a starting spot. So far Landry has come in and been a pest on defense, and hit his outside shot consistantly. That's EXACTLY what PW has said he wanted out of the 3 spot. If he does it better than the other 2 guys Landry will find himself starting.

 

[DocHolliday]

The comments about not being able to guard quicker 3's, with Donte being bigger. I don't think thats' too much of an info. What i dont' like is I've heard coaches, radio hosts, and this article say they question if he could guard quicker 3's and 2's. Why would he be guarding the 2's, shouldn't the 2 guard be guarding the 2 unless you're in a zone, then he'll be help defense. He should still be able to get to a spot and plug a hole with his size at 244lbs.

 

[DocHolliday]

Maybe he didn't have control over it, but he didn't do himself any favors by putting on bulk. He got on the court by being able to defend the shooting guards and small forwards last season. The fact that he's taking it off quickly means he did have some pudge in there and shouldn't have showed up at 260. He'll take most of it off, but he will have to work his way back to where he was instead of showing up ready to compete for the open job. I think that defines "blew it" in my book. At least for now...

Just because it's coming off quickly doesn't mean it's necessarily pudge. With my metabolism I can lose muscle just as fast as fat. All it takes is doing a bunch of cardio, and cutting my diet properly. I will drop weight regardless of what the weight is made of.

All reports say that he is in "fantastic shape", but noticeably bigger than last year in a good way. This is coming from people such as Jason Ross, Henry Turner, The G Man etc.

 

[pshn80]

Hey, Tuesday's game was act 1, tonight is act 2 and there will be a couple more acts before they need to be set on somebody at the 3 for the beginning of season. Just think of the answers we don't have - can/will Cisco play anything, how would Greene look at starting 3, how would Omri look in that roll, despite M. Landry's good shooting and hustling defense, he still looked a little lost on offense, will Wright impress, will Donte play any 4 after we have Dalembert back. The next four preseasons will be interesting inre the 3. Will also be interesting inre 2. Can Cisco play, will he play, will he start, what will the coaches decide for a pg, sg starters and rotation. These questions aren't as critical as those on the 3. Even developments at the 4/5 are intriguing - hopefully, a can't lose situation. Sort of makes the preseason a little more interesting than usual.

 

[Kingster]

Idiotic Move by Donte

Let's be clear though. Donte hasn't really "blown it". His weight gain is all muscle from all reports. I haven't seen him, but everyone who has, says he's "buff". What did people expect out of a guy that is 6' 11" anyway?? They didn't think he might go through a filling out spurt? Hell Artest is 6; 7" and plays between 250lbs-260lbs. They ddin't think a 6' 11" guy might get bigger than 230lbs?

Punishing the guy for working out hard, and his body filling out essentially catching up to his height, well that's just not right in my opinion.

No, Donte did blow it. If you read the article you find out how he blew it. He unilaterally, without encouragement or permission from the coaching staff, decided over the summer that he would bulk up. The coaching staff isn't happy because it cuts down on his quickness. What is with these young guys that they just go off and do something like that without consulting the coaching staff? It seems to me that every single player should consult with the consulting staff on their off-season workout program, whether it is cardio vascular conditioning, muscle development, shooting stroke, WHATEVER. To me it's a big diss of the coaching staff when they do stuff like this.

 

[funkykingston]

The article doesn't say the Kings management is displeased in any way that Donte bulked up, I tend to think that bulking up is exactly what they want out of him.

Actually it does.

Greene made strides last season with his willingness to defend and curtail his urge to shoot. But Kings coaches are concerned that a bigger Greene might not be as quick defending on the perimeter.

"Yeah, I guess they didn't like it," Greene said of his weight gain. "I felt comfortable, but it is what it is. They asked me to lose it, so I'm working on losing it and getting on the floor."

Greene said he's down to 244 pounds after playing at a listed weight of 226 pounds last season. He also said his left knee has bothered him lately and has taken away some of his explosiveness.

 

[kingsboi]

I can understand what Donte was trying to do. When you go into the offseason one of the first things you want to focus on is getting in the weight room and working on strength & conditioning. He might of overdone himself just a little more than the coaching staff would of liked out of him. Now, that is on him if indeed Westphal and co. are upset that he added almost 20 pounds of weight/muscle. He shouldn't reduce it too much, but maybe reduce 7-10 pounds, because last year he was getting pushed around a lot and I assume that is one of the main reasons he wanted to bulk up. How much playing time he gets this year I guess will be up to what the coaching staff asks out of him and how he can produce in that fashion night in and night out.

 

[The Hammer]

The comments about not being able to guard quicker 3's, with Donte being bigger. I don't think thats' too much of an info. What i dont' like is I've heard coaches, radio hosts, and this article say they question if he could guard quicker 3's and 2's. Why would he be guarding the 2's, shouldn't the 2 guard be guarding the 2 unless you're in a zone, then he'll be help defense. He should still be able to get to a spot and plug a hole with his size at 244lbs.

He guarded Kobe last year and did a damn good job.

 

[The Hammer]

"If I'm coming off the bench, they're going to have a lot more plays for me because I'll come in with the second team and Tyreke will probably be out resting. But that's up to the coach. I'm open-minded.

Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/2010/10/07/3086006/kings-search-for-small-forward.html#ixzz11hIAwWyj

This kind of thinking and talking from Casspi concerns me. When he talks like this I get the distinct impression that in his mind he is addressing the Israeli press and the fans back home. This is exactly what I was afraid might happen, and it's due to the immense pressure put on him by his homeland. He feels like he has to be the hero, and if not on the starting squad, then perpaps on the second unit. Of course he throws in the caveat of "I'm open minded." Well if he was truly open minded he wouldn't have to add that caveat and he wouldn't make a statement such as he did. He's missing the point. You shouldn't only be ok with coming off the bench because there will be more plays run for you personally.

Edit: PM Sent -- Brick

 

[The Hammer]

"Our team has a lot of young guys that can score the ball, but that's not the only way you can win games," Wright said. "So in order to help those lineups when we have more offensive lineups, I try to be more of a defender, more of a creator, spread the ball and take my shots when they come.

Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/2010/10/07/3086006/kings-search-for-small-forward.html#ixzz11hKuvvyj

And say what you will about Wright, but this is exactly the kind of attitude we are looking for. This is the kind of veteran presence that this team needs. I can easily see Wright or Landry starting on opening night, and to be honest, I wouldn't mind one bit. From the reports of practice, they've been good defensively, and they operate within the flow of the the offense. If we've got three or four other very good offensive players, we don't need that much offense out of the SF spot, so in that case, it's who's the better defender, and who keeps the ball moving on offense and takes the shot when it's there.

 

[bajaden]

The comments about not being able to guard quicker 3's, with Donte being bigger. I don't think thats' too much of an info. What i dont' like is I've heard coaches, radio hosts, and this article say they question if he could guard quicker 3's and 2's. Why would he be guarding the 2's, shouldn't the 2 guard be guarding the 2 unless you're in a zone, then he'll be help defense. He should still be able to get to a spot and plug a hole with his size at 244lbs.

Its called a defensive rotational switch. It happens whether you like if or not. How many times have you seen a center out there guarding a point guard. These switches happen all the time on the perimiter with the shooting guard and small forward getting caught in a switch. Thats why the two positions have almost become interchangable.

 

[Kingster]

The Role of the Three

On a slightly different note on whether Casspi/Greene can fulfill the role that Westphal has described for them, I'd like to get some opinions on the role that Westphal has defined. Note that Westphal doesn't mention slashing to the basket. It's pretty much defend, hit the open man, make the wide open shot. It seems fair to say that it's a secondary role. So my question is, has Westphal created this limited role because he thinks that nobody on this team can handle greater responsibilities, or has he come up with a structure, that regardless of the talents of the players on this team, that's the way he wants it?

 

[bajaden]

First off let me say that I'm a team player. So I don't care if they start mickey mouse at SF as long as the team wins. Its obvious that there's a lot more love for Donte than there is for Omri. Not sure why, because, as an example in the last game, Omri outplayed Donte. But that doesn't seem to matter to most people. This seems to be more of a personality contest than who is the best player contest.

The Kings did have exit interviews with all the players. It was written about in the Bee. So I'm sure all the players had an idea what the team wanted them to work on during the off-season. I can't imagine that Donte would have put on all that weight if he had worked out with the team trainer, whom I'm sure is aware of what the organization wants. Thompson for instance said that the team wanted him to work on his core strength, and thats what he worked on. As result he's in terrific shape. So I'm not sure what happened to Donte.

In the article, Omri stated that he was the number one option on the Israeli team. And that it was an adjustment coming back to the Kings. No where in the article did he say that he wanted to be the number one option on the Kings. He did say he wanted to start. So what? Greene wants to start. Thompson wants to start. Almost every player in the NBA wants to start. Frankly, I wouldn't want a player on my team that just wanted to be a bench player for his career.

As I said, I don't give a damm who starts, or comes off the bench first, as long as the team wins. But some seem more than willing to make excuses for Greene, while not cutting Casspi any slack. Casspi seems to have become the current whipping boy on the fourm. And I'm not sure why. At the end of last year he appeared to be a fan favorite, and now, without having even played a regular season game, he's the bad guy.

As for Marcus Landry, if Westphal thinks he should be the starter, then kudo's to Marcus. He will have earned it. But there's a long way to go before the start of the season. Lets wait and see who emerges as the winner for the starting position. And as I said! I don't care who wins, as long as the team wins.

 

[Bricklayer]

Yeah, that's a really good article, or I guess I should rather say an article that confirms much of the speculation we have been making here. Which is to say we are all brilliant of course. Especially me.

-- you again have that lingering discomfort on the Casspi ego/selfishness question. Always there.
-- the little comment from Westphal about his SF not thinking he was a #1 option was indeed about Casspi
-- as always the interesting effect of the NT summer work, as well as the pressure form the home country fans/media comes into play. Guys get thrust into much more prominent roles in those things they they have on their NBA teams and get used to it.
-- my ambivalence about the weight Donte is carrying is indeed on the coaching staff's mind, to such a degree that he has been asked to lose it (as an aside, not that easy to just lose 20lbs of legit muscle mass in a month without starving yourself -- the mere fact that Donte could put on that bulk so easily perhaps separates him from many of the scrawny natural freaky skinny creatures that populate the NBA, and at a certain point you don't want to be demanding a naturally thicker guy go all supermodel to lose the weight)
-- might very well explain Donte's limited minutes last game
-- the idea of using Casspi as a 6th man so he can get up his shots, be a top option during his minutes, and give us a scoring spark has occurred to both the staff and Casspi himself

Well, I guess a thank you should be passed along to Jason Jones for this one. Not ideal news, but much intrigue, and confirming many suspicions.

 

[beb0p]

Actually it does.

There is a difference between, "You moron! Why did you gain so much weight!!" VS. "Hey Donte, I think you overdid the muscle thing and I think you should scale back a bit."

Did the Kings want Donte to lose a bit weight? Sure; but I don't get the sense that they are displeased with him. I think it's more of the later approach than the former.

 

[kennadog]

Donte also said his knee was bothering him a bit. Maybe that's why he didn't play a lot of minutes, too. Donte could get tired (lower energy) trying to lose weight, especially if he's trying to do it quickly.

As I recall, though, last pre-season when faced with multiple players at the same position, Westphal tended to give one player the bulk of the minutes in one game and the another player got them in the next game. I don't know that we should assume its any indicator of who Westphal will start during the regular season.

I want my players to be competitive like Casspi. I try and give him the benefit of the doubt, due to English not being his first language. He may be having a little trouble expressing himself the way he means to. I haven't been too thrilled, though, with some of his statements. It comes off as self-centered rather than team-centered. He may end up being the best SF, but he needs to know what is expected of him and do it, not chafe so openly.

Players have to desire the success of the team. If the team succeeds, that's what really matters, whether you're the #1 or #5 option on your team, or coming off the bench, or whatever. Most of the guys on an NBA team have been the main guy on a team at some point in their basketball career, even if it was junrior high school. Almost everyone has had to adjust to a different role, especially when they get to the NBA level.

 

[fnordius]

I thought this was a kind of dumb article, and an indication that the Bee still hasn't shaken the TDOS news shortage.

Yes, we still don't know who our starting SF is, that's been going on for over a year. What else is new?

 

[The Hammer]

First off let me say that I'm a team player. So I don't care if they start mickey mouse at SF as long as the team wins. Its obvious that there's a lot more love for Donte than there is for Omri. Not sure why, because, as an example in the last game, Omri outplayed Donte. But that doesn't seem to matter to most people. This seems to be more of a personality contest than who is the best player contest.

If you include in personality a team first attitude, willingness to play within the flow of the offense, willingness to accept role as third, fourth, or fifth, option, and setting an example with this kind of attitude, then yes, it is in part a personality contest.

 

[Bricklayer]

I thought this was a kind of dumb article, and an indication that the Bee still hasn't shaken the TDOS news shortage.

Yes, we still don't know who our starting SF is, that's been going on for over a year. What else is new?

The reasons are the key. We guessed them, we were right. Apparently one guy is being held back by his body, the other by his ego. Neither was/is necessary, and hopefully both are correctible. Its an important look into the decisionmaking dynamics here. Landry is out there not through any particular merit except that he gets it, and the main two guys unfortunately each in their own way prepared the wrong way for what we need. Now one needs to shed some weight and get his quickness back, and the other needs to redampen his ego and slip back into his role.

Given Casspi's constant chafing I still think the ideal solution here might be Donte getting back into 235ish shape, taking the starting role, and handling the spot shooting and defending, and Casspi getting to come off the bench, damaging to his ego or not, and come in firing, which seems to be very much on his mind. Let him follow his instincts/desires in a way that also works for the team. Every team needs scoring pop off the bench, and while he may not get as many minutes, it lets Casspi be a main option during the time he is out there. Everybody gets most of what they want.

 

[rainmaker]

Donte worked out in Sac for about 3 weeks in June, played in the Vegas SL in July, and was back in Sac again working out for a bit in August. The reason I bring this up,is it's not as if he just disappeared for the entire summer and showed up at media day looking like the incredible hulk. He was in contact with team trainers, I'm guessing Shapiro, spent time in Sac working with them on two seperate occasions this summer, and in addition played with the team in Vegas. My question is, how the hell can the coaching staff notknow about the weight gain, or act surprised by it?

Maybe Donte was asked to hit the weights, and after seeing the results of the added weight on the court, the coaching staff decided it's hampering Donte, hence the request to lose the weight. I have a hard time believing Donte did this without receiving an ok from the staff, or that they weren't aware of it. In fact, I don't believe it at all.

So everyone who thinks Donte screwed up by going off on his own and added the lbs the coaching staff didn't want him to add, then please explain to me how the coaching staff was unaware after seeing Donte numerous times this summer? Shouldn't our coaching staff have a better idea of what our guys are doing during the offseason when we have such a young team looking to makea huge jump this year?

Also, as someone who as spent a lot of time in weight rooms as a former stength and cond. coach, I can tell you that if a 22 yr old adds 20+ lbs of muscle during an offseason, his frame will start to fill out naturally whether you like it or not. Different body types put on weight/muscle differently. There are guys who can hit the weights hard 6 times per week, eat 10 protein packed meals per day, and put on only 5-10 lbs over a 12 months period. In order for Donte to put on that much muscle that quickly, and looking at his age and frame, his body was going to start filling out regardless. Hypothetically, you couldn't blame Dwight Howard for carying so much muscle, and ask him to drop 25lbs, because his body type wouldn't allow it. He didn't even lift weights in highschool, he always looked like that. And Donte is 2-3 inches taller. Likewise, you can't blame a guy like Duncan who has always lifted weights religiously, but never has been able to add much muscle. His body won't allow it.

 

[fnordius]

The reasons are the key. We guessed them, we were right. Apparently one guy is being held back by his body, the other by his ego.

The article didn't say that, though. It said, "But there are still concerns whether Casspi can hold up physically after his play tailed off late last season." That he hit the rookie wall last year is not news.

Casspi's quotes show that he thinks he's good enough to start in the NBA, and wants to be a significant part of the offense, but realizes he's nowhere close to being our #1 option, and is fine with coming off the bench. If someone sees some horrible smoking gun in that, I think it's because they're seeing what they want to see. Most years, we've had someone on the team who had a way creepier attitude than that, even among our starters. I'd hope that Greene also thinks he's good enough to be a starter, and wants an offensive role, but has no problem with coming off the bench.

I guess it's news that Greene put on more weight than PW would like, that wasn't something I'd heard before. Not sure that it justifies a full-page story... *shrug*