Can't disagree with you at this point. And to add on, for all the talk about how the losing culture might have "broken" Fox, Buddy has been here even longer.
[Game] Kings @ Raptors, 12/13/2021 4pm Pacific 7pm Eastern
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Can't disagree with you at this point. And to add on, for all the talk about how the losing culture might have "broken" Fox, Buddy has been here even longer.
steelevt
All-Star
But has anyone seen high level plays. I’m not as observant at seeing all the plays and how they develop but honestly I see a couple plays over and over that don’t seem too complicated. That stupid weave at the top of the 3 point line that just leads to fox driving to the key for a mid range jumper. The play with double screens for buddy to shoot a straight on 3. And I guess once in awhile, I’ll see a switch to get a guard on HB where he posts out at the top of the key. Other than those I don’t really see any plays or definitely any high level / complex plays. And the only simple play that is really effective, pnr with Ty and holmes, doesn’t get used enough.
KainLear
Starter
For what it's worth, Gentry admitted when he was hired that "how they run things" aren't gonna be changed, those are things they spent this past summer working on.
Because at first, I wanted to help them make that excuse that "Maybe Gentry needs some time to course-correct" but he told us directly that they aren't really gonna be changing things, outside of maybe minor changes, which we can see now is basically his more diverse rotation digging slightly deeper into the bench. Although you could make an argument that our injuries kind of make it easy for Gentry to try out different rotations.
serbiangoat
Starter
The Kings are crap because they invested massive money in guys like Fox/Barnes/Buddy it's really that simple, this is not a hard fix at all. Giving like 20+mill or whatever figure each is getting is suicide. Comparing those guys impact on winning (nearly non-existent) to what they make gives you what you have now. Fox is like a 10-12mil per year guy at best.
I think the problem starts at coaching. Luke Walton was horrible and couldn't get them playing good basketball, and he's gone 1/3 way into this season. It's going to be extremely rare that any new coach can come in and change things immediately. You need an offseason together, practices, and coaching. You don't get that with mid-season fires.
I stand by the my opinion that I think this team is talented enough to win, but poor coaching ruined it. Bogdanovic is the biggest evidence of the team having enough talent. He was our 6th man here. He joined a new franchise and instantly contributed to an unexpected playoff run. He was the same player here as he was in Atlanta. All of our main guys have enough talent to be major contributor on winning teams.
But at this point, I think the window for these guys might be too late. The window started with Joerger, and Luke just wasn't able to get it done. Fans have been calling for changes and roster moves. The FO is feeling the pressure to make changes.
REMINDER: we went 39-43 with the same group of guys under Joerger. Luke came in, and instantly dropped us to 31-41.... then 31-41 again.
Luke was always the problem.
I stand by the my opinion that I think this team is talented enough to win, but poor coaching ruined it. Bogdanovic is the biggest evidence of the team having enough talent. He was our 6th man here. He joined a new franchise and instantly contributed to an unexpected playoff run. He was the same player here as he was in Atlanta. All of our main guys have enough talent to be major contributor on winning teams.
But at this point, I think the window for these guys might be too late. The window started with Joerger, and Luke just wasn't able to get it done. Fans have been calling for changes and roster moves. The FO is feeling the pressure to make changes.
REMINDER: we went 39-43 with the same group of guys under Joerger. Luke came in, and instantly dropped us to 31-41.... then 31-41 again.
Luke was always the problem.
serbiangoat
Starter
That 39-43 collapsed the moment they trade for Barnes and vets like Shumpert (traded) and Bjelly couldn't sustain 50+% from 3. It's not coaching trading for Barnes resigning him and maxing Fox trashed any progress. The win % under Joeger with Barnes is probably almost the same as with Luke.
steelevt
All-Star
there are people in this forum who don't think fox is a max guy or superstar, then there are guys like this...
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And unfortunately gameplan. Gameplans are formed in the summer, NOT now. Monte let this happen, even if it was Dumars or Viveks call, he takes the heat. Anyone could have told them Walton was a goner as soon a Vlade split, history said it loud and clear for anyone with ears. They wasted a year and a half in the process. Monte ran it back and it's not looking good right now.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And he's been pushed back to a position to which there is NO argument about his effectiveness there. He is not the same at SF as he is at PF.
24 rick barry
Bench
The problem begins and ends with the Players and that is on Monte McNair. You can see now, that even with a new coach, we are the same bad team.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Wait, so you think Fox is better than *checks notes for someone getting paid 12 million dollars or so a year* Marvin Bagley???
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
We have not seen high level plays...and when I read between the lines of what Fox was saying there, I don't think he feels like the plays are high level. He was implying that one of the things that makes Toronto a good team, is that all of their rotation players are able to run some higher level stuff within their offense, such as easy baskets off of multiple cuts, etc.
He added that it's not common in the league, because in my view many teams rely on their superstar players and don't really run high level plays, but a few of the teams that don't have a superstar are able to find success, in part because they do add some complexity to what they are doing and make sure that it's run sharp and detailed.
Again, this is part of a winning culture and has to be developed over time. Harder to do that when you keep changing coaches and don't necessarily have a GM on the same page as your head coach
DynaPamm
Bench
Recorded but didn’t bother watching…. And if it’s this bad outside Wednesday i will reconsider driving and parking and then walking in for game. Third game in a row that we’ve had our a$$ handed to us.
Just heard Crandle mention that Fox called for a All team player member only for a meeting. So would love to be that fly on the wall , perhaps after this third road trip he’s sick of eating crow? Perhaps tell these guys get your head out of your A$$ including myself and let’s get it together? Play defense? We got to make our free throws??? We’ve got to stop them defensively on wide open shots??? Get the rebound?? What could Fox possibly have to say that we haven’t seen by their actions?
Just heard Crandle mention that Fox called for a All team player member only for a meeting. So would love to be that fly on the wall , perhaps after this third road trip he’s sick of eating crow? Perhaps tell these guys get your head out of your A$$ including myself and let’s get it together? Play defense? We got to make our free throws??? We’ve got to stop them defensively on wide open shots??? Get the rebound?? What could Fox possibly have to say that we haven’t seen by their actions?
serbiangoat
Starter
Yes I'm sure running "high level" plays with the IQ on this team is just going to go swimmingly well. Talk about not playing to your strengths.
To be fair, nobody thinks Marvin should be getting paid 12million
kb02
All-Star
These players don’t work for each other on either side of the ball.
Fox is as guilty as anyone, so I find it head scratching that he’s calling out others for not working for each other. Dude drives 1 vs 3, but rarely passes to the wing, lobs it to a big, or bounce passes it to a big. Dude plays off the ball, but rarely crashes the board, never runs the baseline, or has failed to slide and meet a pass more than a few times because he’s out there dreaming. On defense, the film during that Cleveland game was just gross. Dude was dropping on screens, goes all out to avoid physicality, gave Garland (a shooter) a foot of space, and was jumping out of the way of driving Cavs players all game.
Trade the Vlade core, Monte. On 12/15. Don’t wait.
Fox is as guilty as anyone, so I find it head scratching that he’s calling out others for not working for each other. Dude drives 1 vs 3, but rarely passes to the wing, lobs it to a big, or bounce passes it to a big. Dude plays off the ball, but rarely crashes the board, never runs the baseline, or has failed to slide and meet a pass more than a few times because he’s out there dreaming. On defense, the film during that Cleveland game was just gross. Dude was dropping on screens, goes all out to avoid physicality, gave Garland (a shooter) a foot of space, and was jumping out of the way of driving Cavs players all game.
Trade the Vlade core, Monte. On 12/15. Don’t wait.
Letsgokings13
Starter
Don't give them anymore money
They have players who can play well off-ball. The problem is that good off-ball action is rarely rewarded. How many times have you seen HB flash open for a moment on a quick backdoor cut? Many. How often does he get the ball? Vanishingly few. In general, the Kings don't make nearly as many off-schedule plays as you'd expect given their pace and athleticism.
Gentry talks about wanting guys to make decisions about to do with the ball in .5 seconds. Sounds fine, in principle, but for that to work out well you really do need 5 guys "on a string" - 5 guys reading the situation similarly, moving off-ball in a synchronized way, moving the ball quickly, decisively, and appropriately. There's a lot that can go wrong in all that - and for the Kings it too often does.
kb02
All-Star
In other words, that is what happens when you have:
PG: Fox--Black Hole
SG: Hali--Connector
SF: Barnes--Solid, fundamental hoops, light connector.
PF: Whoever--Black Hole, Non-Facilitator
C: Holmes/Len--Role player, non-facilitator.
Except for Hali and Barnes, low BBIQ across the board.
Not having a facilitator in the front court is killing this team.
I'm not ready to chalk it up to "low BBIQ." That feels too simplistic given that, on occasion, we HAVE seen them play fast, move the ball quickly and effectively. It obviously doesn't happen often enough on either end, even in wins, and rarely on both ends at the same time. But it has happened enough not to be some sort of fluke.
Incidentally, HB is waaaaay underutilized. You're right to call him a "light" connector. He could be more than that - and needs to play a larger facilitation role for *this* team to succeed. Instead, he spends most of every game sitting above the circle literally not touching the ball on most offensive possessions.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Watching the line-up changes and adjustments during the season, with both coaches is a dead giveaway to the teams issues.
No matter how man times you change the PF spot between Metu, Harkless,Bagley, nothing changes. Shuffling TD in and out of the starting lineup, no change. Buddy on the bench, or starting between the last 2 seasons. Team still performs the same.
The giveaway. The players that the organization has given the keys to (the core) are not good enough no matter what role players you shuffle in and out.
The only time this team has any success is when Fox or HB go nuclear. The team lacks high level talent and not just in their role players.
No matter how man times you change the PF spot between Metu, Harkless,Bagley, nothing changes. Shuffling TD in and out of the starting lineup, no change. Buddy on the bench, or starting between the last 2 seasons. Team still performs the same.
The giveaway. The players that the organization has given the keys to (the core) are not good enough no matter what role players you shuffle in and out.
The only time this team has any success is when Fox or HB go nuclear. The team lacks high level talent and not just in their role players.
EIM86
Starter
he took Davis out of the starting lineup when he was killing. We had won 3 in a row and then he took him out. That was stupid. Yeah Barnes came back but get TD minutes
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
What can he say anyway, clearly there's a showcase directive. The one guy he "found" was TD and he's been bench fodder after going on a run of impact play.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
This is freaking BS. YOU, De'Aaron Fox, are NOT PLAYING HARD. Stop with BS! Playing a "hands down" defense has absolutely NOTHING to do with not being sharp. Letting your man go by you with no effort whatsoever has NOTHING to do with being sharp. YOU are doggin' it! Stop with excuses. Stop with "poor me" and implying it's the coaches. It's pathetic. You are becoming the poster child for mentally weak child. MAN UP!
If there's a showcase directive and its costing us games why are the folks who want the most radical change so mad?
*I really struggle with this because I think folks want it after the fact. Like we could not live through a process, but since the end of season results are the same (never making the playoffs) folks are just mad we weren't even worse. Reality is we got a #2 overall that could have been transformational playing just as we have and we went another direction.
I've said this before. You can't really change anything up with a guy who helped build the plan, or at least acquiesced to it. This is a flawed system that is trying to be run. Hell, in all my years of coaching, I still can't figure out what's supposed to happen sometimes. That's partly what I believe Fox was alluding to. You can be sharp practicing a system. You can create an easy system, and run it like clockwork. You can practice the **** out of the Princeton offense and learn tendencies rather quickly, especially if you're drilling it with the same 8 guys. It's not rocket surgery, especially for professional athletes. But you can't expect them to run a broken system effectively.
You could see what Malone was trying to do, and can see what it looks like now at full speed in Denver (injuries aside). You can see that Joerger was developing players. For the life of me, I have no idea what Luke was trying to do. You (not @KainLear) undermine the value of a good coach, especially with a young core. Development is incredibly crucial. This team did not get it.
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