Kings, Post-Trade

[Entity]

I could be way off here. But I think Malone is under selling it. Don't want any high expectations but I believe we will be a lot better. I mean when cousins in on we are in every game. When he is off we aren't. Haven't had that # 2 guy that can also put up 30 any given night. Now we do. And if those two fail to have good game we got Isaiah who can put up some points consistently also. Maybe we can have a night with 3 guys with 20 plus

 

[GoSACtown]

I'm a little confused on what I want, wins or a good draft pick? I prefer a good draft pick but I always love watching the Kings win.. Are the Kings in win now mode or something?

 

[miltonap]

I'm a little confused on what I want, wins or a good draft pick? I prefer a good draft pick but I always love watching the Kings win.. Are the Kings in win now mode or something?

Honestly. I'm tired of losing. We've tanked or straight up sucked for what, 7 years now? I'm fine with dropping a little this draft. 6-10th pick is fine with me. I like watching my team win.

And I don't think they are in win now mode. Win now mode isn't even possible with this roster. We still need a big that can defend and rebound and a few more pieces. They're definitely trying win more though. PDA wants to make the fans happy

 

[Gliesian]

Honestly. I'm tired of losing. We've tanked or straight up sucked for what, 7 years now? I'm fine with dropping a little this draft. 6-10th pick is fine with me. I like watching my team win.

And I don't think they are in win now mode. Win now mode isn't even possible with this roster. We still need a big that can defend and rebound and a few more pieces. They're definitely trying win more though. PDA wants to make the fans happy

I sympathize with you, but we've waited this long to be good again. So long that one more year won't make much of a difference, whereas winning the whole thing does. 1 position in the draft can get us there, so perhaps some decisions about making sure this is more likely need to be made. I have no doubt that we will be a playoff team no matter who we get in the draft, but to win it all... that would be something. Heck, it might even get India involved, which means lots of $$$ for the owners and the NBA. What's one more year?

Also, I think the Kings organization is on board with this plan and it doesn't need to be said in the locker room. It just seemed like we didn't want to win the Jazz game, and look where the Jazz are in the draft. I think we will find out by the all star break if this is indeed true.

That being said, I am extremely excited that we've finally rounded the corner and are heading straight to the playoffs! The rewards for a Kings fan are the best in the NBA.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm a little confused on what I want, wins or a good draft pick? I prefer a good draft pick but I always love watching the Kings win.. Are the Kings in win now mode or something?

I have said this repeatedly, but the Kings just acquired a $19mil/yr 27yr old veteran near All-Star. You have to have to really really tie yourself into knots trying to make that out as anything but "win now". Doesn't mean "win the title now". But it means they are clearly doing the opposite of sitting on their hands or tearing things down. They're actively trying to fix some things mid-season. Ironically after doing nothing during the offseason.

This team needs many things, Gay does not solve all of them. But he certainly conclusively patches the SF hole, and we're hoping he can patch the 2nd option hole.

 

[Bricklayer]

How can our current winning percentage this year not go up after trading John Salmons for Rudy Gay? Were Vasquez, Patterson and Hayes that important to us that the net effect of the trade would be negative? I voted +10, at least over our current clip. We finally acquire a bona fide star and some people voted that we will actually do worse. I always thought that when you have better players you increase your odds of winning more games.

Just pray pray pray pray to whatever god or flying spaghetti monster you think can get the job done, that IT does not suffer an injury. Backup PG already looks like a scary hole. If all of a sudden that became the starting PG situation...

 

[Entity]

yeah I think there are better options in the D league than Ray Ray. I mean he was mostly scoring when he was sent down. 40 min and 5 ast was his top. Kendall Marshall looks like a better prospect.

 

[whozit]

I hope it's an improvement in wins and losses. I hope they play like it is an improvement. First, get all new players on the floor, then start working on a little chemistry and teamwork. If we get Enough of that the wins will come. Don.'t know how it's going to work out. I do know I'll be there for their first home outing on Sunday.

My worry for the moment is PG play especially if they try to play both Fredette and McCallum as backup. It would seem better to play one or the other exclusively until a clear picture is had of what works. If they do that it would help their play particularly if they make the right choice first. Of course if they worry too much about their pocketbook they may try it the hard way.

So far, the one thing they have not seemed to worry about is the pocketbook.

 

[dude12]

yeah I think there are better options in the D league than Ray Ray. I mean he was mostly scoring when he was sent down. 40 min and 5 ast was his top. Kendall Marshall looks like a better prospect.

He might but what I know is that the rebuilding Suns who are acquiring young assets and prospects basically gave up on Kendall Marshall. McCalum needs consistent time so we know what we got.

 

[Hadlowe]

yeah I think there are better options in the D league than Ray Ray. I mean he was mostly scoring when he was sent down. 40 min and 5 ast was his top. Kendall Marshall looks like a better prospect.

Marshall is a smaller Vasquez with less scoring ability and roughly equivalent defense. I like what Ray brings in athleticism and defensive effort. Give him time to develop the ability to run an offense. 2 games in limited minutes isn't much evaluation time.

 

[Chubbs]

They're trying to build something, but the holes in the roster are huge still, if not larger. Defense is terrible. Backup pg doesn't exist. Between mclemore and MT we don't have a sg that is anything close to being a nightly contributor. Is Williams a solution? Can Williams be consistent? Can williams play off the bench if that's the way this goes? Can IT handle a heavy minutes workload, with the games starting to come a whole lot quicker and on the road?

That's just reality. We traded numerous role players for a top shelf guy. That's the way to go, it just leaves a hole the size of texas on the bench. For now. That may not be true a week from now.

No one can get hurt, especially IT. Heck, right now if Jimmer got hurt it'd not be good.

They are aggressively trying to build something, but this is still a roster in flux. And the west is still deep and good. Are we really any better than most of the teams ahead of us already? Even with an improved roster? I'm not so sure. Sure, we have two all star level players, although neither as yet have actually been an all star. I'm not sure top to bottom we compare well, especially when a couple teams have major players out (and still have much better records, lakers, memphis and new orleans).

We are still very much a developing team.

 

[Entity]

Marshall is a smaller Vasquez with less scoring ability and roughly equivalent defense. I like what Ray brings in athleticism and defensive effort. Give him time to develop the ability to run an offense. 2 games in limited minutes isn't much evaluation time.

ok

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I'm not sure why anyone would be making any judgements at all about McCallum already? He's played a few minutes.
I'd like to give him a chance to settle in, before writing him off as not being ready

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

We really haven't seen McCallam even get a chance to give the backup PG spot a go. All he's seen so far is garbage time. My guess is that after a few more games of Jimmer floundering around at the backup PG spot, McCallam will get his chance. I don't see why he can't spot Isaiah 10-13 minutes per game.

 

[ppine]

This is impossible to predict. On paper it should add a few games as in 5-8.

 

[Padrino]

How can our current winning percentage this year not go up after trading John Salmons for Rudy Gay? Were Vasquez, Patterson and Hayes that important to us that the net effect of the trade would be negative? I voted +10, at least over our current clip. We finally acquire a bona fide star and some people voted that we will actually do worse. I always thought that when you have better players you increase your odds of winning more games.

i present to you, the 2012-2013 los angeles lakers:

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

The team has way more talent now than it did 2 weeks ago, so I would expect more wins provided Malone can get these guys to play together to some degree.

This team isn't perfect in terms of how the pieces fit together. I'm not expecting a miracle from Malone, but as long as they don't kill each other we should see better basketball.

 

[Kingster]

They're trying to build something, but the holes in the roster are huge still, if not larger. Defense is terrible. Backup pg doesn't exist. Between mclemore and MT we don't have a sg that is anything close to being a nightly contributor. Is Williams a solution? Can Williams be consistent? Can williams play off the bench if that's the way this goes? Can IT handle a heavy minutes workload, with the games starting to come a whole lot quicker and on the road?

That's just reality. We traded numerous role players for a top shelf guy. That's the way to go, it just leaves a hole the size of texas on the bench. For now. That may not be true a week from now.

No one can get hurt, especially IT. Heck, right now if Jimmer got hurt it'd not be good.

They are aggressively trying to build something, but this is still a roster in flux. And the west is still deep and good. Are we really any better than most of the teams ahead of us already? Even with an improved roster? I'm not so sure. Sure, we have two all star level players, although neither as yet have actually been an all star. I'm not sure top to bottom we compare well, especially when a couple teams have major players out (and still have much better records, lakers, memphis and new orleans).

We are still very much a developing team.

I agree with everything you said. In particular, unless Rudy can play a point-forward for part of the game, there could be some major trouble at the backup pg position. Look at tonight's game with Bledsoe and Dragic. When Bledsoe comes out of the game for a breather, who is going to take Dragic, who is no slouch on the defensive or offensive side of the floor? Also, although I'm a big IT backer, I'm fairly dubious about him playing 38-40 minutes a game. With an upcoming road trip in which the Kings play 4 games in 5 nights I think he could be worn to a frazzle fairly quickly with that schedule and those kind of minutes.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Those ball-pounding isolations have yielded Gay just 0.77 points per possession, via Synergy Sports(subscription required).

But when the Raptors found a hint of offensive creativity, Gay was once again a weapon. As a spot-up shooter, he's buried 50 percent of his three-point attempts. As an off-ball cutter, he's wracked up 1.28 points per possession and converted
64.7 percent of his chances."

It looks like we won't be asking Gay to ISO a lot rather have him do cuts and spot up shooting which should increase his field goal %. He still will go ISO sometimes when we need him but Malone will lee him in check.

Surprised this hasn't received more responses, but clearly beyond the superficial look at TS% and usage, there is some value to a deeper advanced stats analysis. And it looks like our FO has taken notice. I'm looking forward to seeing how they use him tonight.

 

[GoSACtown]

I have said this repeatedly, but the Kings just acquired a $19mil/yr 27yr old veteran near All-Star. You have to have to really really tie yourself into knots trying to make that out as anything but "win now". Doesn't mean "win the title now". But it means they are clearly doing the opposite of sitting on their hands or tearing things down. They're actively trying to fix some things mid-season. Ironically after doing nothing during the offseason.

This team needs many things, Gay does not solve all of them. But he certainly conclusively patches the SF hole, and we're hoping he can patch the 2nd option hole.

Are you ok with not getting a top 5 draft pick if we do win some games now? Considering this is supposed to be one of the best drafts in the last 20 years

 

[GoSACtown]

Honestly. I'm tired of losing. We've tanked or straight up sucked for what, 7 years now? I'm fine with dropping a little this draft. 6-10th pick is fine with me. I like watching my team win.

And I don't think they are in win now mode. Win now mode isn't even possible with this roster. We still need a big that can defend and rebound and a few more pieces. They're definitely trying win more though. PDA wants to make the fans happy

Yea 7 years but this is supposed to be one of the best drafts ever, if there is ever a time to lose, it is now

 

[Bricklayer]

Are you ok with not getting a top 5 draft pick if we do win some games now? Considering this is supposed to be one of the best drafts in the last 20 years

Ok if the structure built without it is strong enough.

Tanking was never an option that meshed well with new coach and Boogie blowing up. You want to tank you keep Keith Smart and shoot Boogie in the leg before the season starts.

Now 5 years ago I advised anti-tanking people that they were being idiots. Playing to lose much more than tanking advocates really. Tanking is a completely natural and key part of the NBA life cycle. At every point of the NBA life cycle you should be trying to be the best at what you do, whether it is winning, building for the future, or tanking to get the talent for the future. If you're on the way down, pull the rug out and go all the way down. But the thing is...we did. intentionally or not, and in 2008 at least the second half of the year was intentional, we tanked. We got bad. And we were rewarded despite our incompetent GM. Now that's done. Be nifty to score another top pick, but its no different than with any other star, once they come online and start kicking tail, you aren't likely to get that other top pick. And once you have a star, you turn to building around him. No star = tank. Nothing to build around. Have a star? Get him a wingman, which we just did. Get him defenders and support players and roleplayers, which we have not for the most part.

 

[Padrino]

I have said this repeatedly, but the Kings just acquired a $19mil/yr 27yr old veteran near All-Star. You have to have to really really tie yourself into knots trying to make that out as anything but "win now". Doesn't mean "win the title now". But it means they are clearly doing the opposite of sitting on their hands or tearing things down. They're actively trying to fix some things mid-season. Ironically after doing nothing during the offseason.

This team needs many things, Gay does not solve all of them. But he certainly conclusively patches the SF hole, and we're hoping he can patch the 2nd option hole.

it's the illusion of "win now," with the benefit of future flexibility, given the brief amount of time left on gay's ball-and-chain of a contract. of course, yet another midseason trade could possibly swing the front office's strategy more towards the reality of "win now," but, as the roster currently stands, this team is still far too deficient on the defensive end, too weak on the glass, too empty on the bench, and too ball dominant in the starting unit to be in the mix for a playoff spot in a brutally tough western conference. and, though i may be in the minority, i still believe that there are more than enough losses ahead for the kings this season that they will be in the mix for a high pick in a stacked 2014 draft class...

in other threads, you yourself have offered only the slightest of pathways in which cousins/gay/thomas can work offensively, and that's before the team's poor defensive pedigree even enters the conversation. how many wins do you actually foresee across the remainder of the season? again, devoid of context, the move itself may ring out as a "win now" kind of trade because of rudy gay's name recognition and the size of his contract, but it's going to take a) one helluva career rebirth from gay, b) a sizable sacrifice from isaiah thomas (and the overlooked possibility of an inadvertent sacrifice from demarcus cousins), and c) a herculean effort from coach malone to make it all work on offense, and to coax consistent defensive effort from the smallball lineups that he will be forced to play...

i'm not nearly optimistic enough to expect that those three factors will effectively coalesce in the middle of the season, especially considering how many road games are left on the kings' schedule. that said, is pete d'allesandro done dealing? by most accounts, it would appear that he's hoping to swing at least one more trade before the deadline. but, short of flipping thomas/thompson/whatever it would take for a guy like rajon rondo, i don't see a follow-up trade yielding the kind of player that will catapult this team towards .500...

 

[Bricklayer]

The Memphis Grizzlies were a perennial playoff power with a Zach Randolph & Rudy Gay as their #1/#2 punch. Randolph ironically being a guy a lot of people wanted to compare Cousins too, despite Cousins being blatantly more talented.

Now there was more going on there than just Zach/Gay. They had a perfect set of defensive/distribution minded roleplayers there in Gasol, Allen, Conley. But I don't for an instant believe we are done making movies, and hence my calls for a defensive/shotblocking pair for Cousins (Gasol (Asik?)) a defensive guard (Allen), and a distributing PG (Conley (Rondo?).

And if we ere really going to be ruthless about things and lay out ALL available assets to try to mimic the structure, I'm not entirely sure we don't have enough to get in the ballpark on several of those. IT, Ben, JT, Williams Thornton, Jimmer (ender), Outlaw etc. That does not mean that structure is what we are trying to accomplish. But it gives some idea as to how not forever away you are when you suddenly get a massive talent infusion in trading junk for a Rudy Gay. You win one more trade and you could get within a piece and a roleplayer or two of mattering.

 

[pshn80]

it's the illusion of "win now," with the benefit of future flexibility, given the brief amount of time left on gay's ball-and-chain of a contract. of course, yet another midseason trade could possibly swing the front office's strategy more towards the reality of "win now," but, as the roster currently stands, this team is still far too deficient on the defensive end, too weak on the glass, too empty on the bench, and too ball dominant in the starting unit to be in the mix for a playoff spot in a brutally tough western conference. and, though i may be in the minority, i still believe that there are more than enough losses ahead for the kings this season that they will be in the mix for a high pick in a stacked 2014 draft class...

in other threads, you yourself have offered only the slightest of pathways in which cousins/gay/thomas can work offensively, and that's before the team's poor defensive pedigree even enters the conversation. how many wins do you actually foresee across the remainder of the season? again, devoid of context, the move itself may ring out as a "win now" kind of trade because of rudy gay's name recognition and the size of his contract, but it's going to take a) one helluva career rebirth from gay, b) a sizable sacrifice from isaiah thomas (and the overlooked possibility of an inadvertent sacrifice from demarcus cousins), and c) a herculean effort from coach malone to make it all work on offense, and to coax consistent defensive effort from the smallball lineups that he will be forced to play...

i'm not nearly optimistic enough to expect that those three factors will effectively coalesce in the middle of the season, especially considering how many road games are left on the kings' schedule. that said, is pete d'allesandro done dealing? by most accounts, it would appear that he's hoping to swing at least one more trade before the deadline. but, short of flipping thomas/thompson/whatever it would take for a guy like rajon rondo, i don't see a follow-up trade yielding the kind of player that will catapult this team towards .500...

You are right, I cdon't believe we are anyway good enough to have to tank. We will bust our butt trying to win and still wind up with a high pick. So everybody sit back and relax and enjoy the good moments.

 

[origkds]

i present to you, the 2012-2013 los angeles lakers:

Yes, I know that the Lakers are struggling and there are exceptions to any rule. But, even though they are doing poorly, the Lakers do have more talent than us so conversely their winning percentage is higher than ours. So with the addition of Gay I would still expect our winning percentage to increase. I know this trade left a big hole at PG and I have to assume that our front office is well aware of this fact also. Sometimes you have to take chances and I believe that they're betting IT will hold up until they can address the issue (which I believe will be soon). I'm all in for a trade like this and it would take one heck of an argument for someone to convince me that we really have something to lose.

 

[Glenn]

Ok if the structure built without it is strong enough.

Tanking was never an option that meshed well with new coach and Boogie blowing up. You want to tank you keep Keith Smart and shoot Boogie in the leg before the season starts.

Now 5 years ago I advised anti-tanking people that they were being idiots. Playing to lose much more than tanking advocates really. Tanking is a completely natural and key part of the NBA life cycle. At every point of the NBA life cycle you should be trying to be the best at what you do, whether it is winning, building for the future, or tanking to get the talent for the future. If you're on the way down, pull the rug out and go all the way down. But the thing is...we did. intentionally or not, and in 2008 at least the second half of the year was intentional, we tanked. We got bad. And we were rewarded despite our incompetent GM. Now that's done. Be nifty to score another top pick, but its no different than with any other star, once they come online and start kicking tail, you aren't likely to get that other top pick. And once you have a star, you turn to building around him. No star = tank. Nothing to build around. Have a star? Get him a wingman, which we just did. Get him defenders and support players and roleplayers, which we have not for the most part.

We don't have a pg and a rim protector. In the top 10 picks of next year's draft, there are major talents at PG and shot blocking defenders. We would have to turn into a major power very quickly to miss out on a shot at either of these two positions. There are the more bally hoo'd SFs and PF. We don't need to tank as we are one minor injury to IT from losing a huge stretch of games even those we might expect to win if there is such a thing. Cuz will get his two quick fouls and be benched to the team's detriment. We are one win away from having the worst record in the NBA and are 1/4 through the season. What are we doing? Do we expect Rudy to fit in seamlessly with this projected Cuz, IT, Rudy, Williams, McLemore starting lineup? We have a bench that has no NBA quality PG, Landry healing, JT, MT and who else? Right now, the bench pg is useless, Landry is useless and MT is useless. We will have to depend on JT for scoring a little and that is a recipe for disaster. Acy won't contribute pts. nor will Gray. Will Outlaw be our bench offensive machine?

This is not a tank but it is not a team that will win and cost us our 1st round pick. I would put us near #6 not counting the unpredictability of the ping pong balls. We also are very close to #1.

I'm with pshn80. Let's sit back and enjoy the season.

 

[Bricklayer]

We don't have a pg and a rim protector. In the top 10 picks of next year's draft, there are major talents at PG and shot blocking defenders. We would have to turn into a major power very quickly to miss out on a shot at either of these two positions. There are the more bally hoo'd SFs and PF. We don't need to tank as we are one minor injury to IT from losing a huge stretch of games even those we might expect to win if there is such a thing. Cuz will get his two quick fouls and be benched to the team's detriment. We are one win away from having the worst record in the NBA and are 1/4 through the season. What are we doing? Do we expect Rudy to fit in seamlessly with this projected Cuz, IT, Rudy, Williams, McLemore starting lineup? We have a bench that has no NBA quality PG, Landry healing, JT, MT and who else? Right now, the pg is useless, Landry is useless and MT is useless. we will have to depend on JT for scoring a little and that is a recipe for disaster.

This is not a tank but it is not a team that will win and cost us our 1st round pick. I would put us near #6 not counting the unpredictability of the ping pong balls. We also are very close to #1.

We have played the toughest schedule, recordwise (we've played a stupid number of home games) in the league, and we still don't have a truly terrible team's +/-. In fact our +/- is better than Memphis's right now. Then we just traded away a whole swath of the junk that helped us to our record in the first place.

 

[Glenn]

We have played the toughest schedule, recordwise (we've played a stupid number of home games) in the league, and we still don't have a truly terrible team's +/-. In fact our +/- is better than Memphis's right now. Then we just traded away a whole swath of the junk that helped us to our record in the first place.

Pish posh, herr brickmeister. Meld together my note and your note, both of which make good points and you have a situation where you can't predict the future. I do not look forward to the road trips coming up. We have played tough teams at home with minimal flight time (tiring). The road involves jet lag, skirt chasing, and sight seeing unless these guys are not normal.

I think we made a great trade but I doubt it will turn around this season. I fully expect Malone to mix and match the parts he has in a good way and I thoroughly expect PDA to fill the gaping openings plus the healing of Landry. It's all good. Just not this year.

I don't know if we are debating if this is a classical tank or if we are debating whether what we have done will lead to wins. I don't think it is a classical tank yet I don't think the moves made lead to wins in any kind of predictable manner.

Let's see how the season unfolds and I look forward to it.

 

[Padrino]

The Memphis Grizzlies were a perennial playoff power with a Zach Randolph & Rudy Gay as their #1/#2 punch. Randolph ironically being a guy a lot of people wanted to compare Cousins too, despite Cousins being blatantly more talented.

Now there was more going on there than just Zach/Gay. They had a perfect set of defensive/distribution minded roleplayers there in Gasol, Allen, Conley. But I don't for an instant believe we are done making movies, and hence my calls for a defensive/shotblocking pair for Cousins (Gasol (Asik?)) a defensive guard (Allen), and a distributing PG (Conley (Rondo?).

And if we ere really going to be ruthless about things and lay out ALL available assets to try to mimic the structure, I'm not entirely sure we don't have enough to get in the ballpark on several of those. IT, Ben, JT, Williams Thornton, Jimmer (ender), Outlaw etc. That does not mean that structure is what we are trying to accomplish. But it gives some idea as to how not forever away you are when you suddenly get a massive talent infusion in trading junk for a Rudy Gay. You win one more trade and you could get within a piece and a roleplayer or two of mattering.

hey, if the kings can swing trades for omer asik and/or rajon rondo before the deadline, then i'm right on board with this anti-tanking strategy. i just don't think d'allesandro is wizard enough to make it happen this season. getting rid of a mixed bag of roleplayers with no future in sacramento to bring back a former second-tier, fringe-all-star type who's now widely considered to be a massively overpaid reclamation project is one thing, but trading what's left of the kings' spare parts for an established defensive anchor like asik? or an all-star caliber distributor and wing defender like rondo? i seriously doubt it's in the cards, especially since the kings can't dangle their 2014 first rounder in the process...

cousins/gay is simply not enough on its own, especially without a shred of defensive talent around them. and don't count me among those who believe isaiah thomas is a long-term solution in the starting unit. his value is high right now, of course, so you might be able to package him with one of the kings' larger contracts to bring back an available talent who could potentially help elevate this team to the .500 mark and above. that said, i'd much rather stand pat with the current roster, lose enough games to snag one of jabari parker, andrew wiggins, marcus smart, or dante exum, and then trade rudy gay's expiring contract next season to fill in the gaps. parker and smart, in particular, are the kinds of nba-ready combination of size and skill that would pair well with cousins...