Kings, Post-Trade

[TyFreak Evans]

Now that it seems like the new blood will be making their debuts in Kings colors tomorrow night, I will ask the following question, how much better (in terms of "Wins") do you think the Kings are now with Rudy, Quincy, and Aaron?

What I am trying to ask here is quite simple, take your projected win-loss record at the beginning of this season, and compare it to your new projection, now with the new guys....

 

[Glenn]

Gay is an upgrade at SF but there will be some adjustment problems in ball sharing among the projected starters. Subtract some points from Cuz, Thomas, and Williams scoring averages. The bench has taken a huge hit with no PG to run the mob. For those who think PG is the most important position on a team, it should be easily understood that we may have major problems. I expect PDA to get us a serviceable PG after Dec 15.

 

[TyFreak Evans]

I pretty much agree with everything you have said, Glenn. I think the play on the court will be a major improvement over what we have been seeing this season, but I am not convinced that it will translate into "Wins". I think that, over time, we will start to play more consistent ball, but that probably will have to spill over into next season, and maybe even the season after.....

 

[The_Jamal]

I wouldn't be so sure Glenn, that we're going after another back-up PG. I feel that one of the reasons we did this move was to find some minutes for Jimmer/McCallum. And why not? This season is about finding future core players. I don't agree with the Jimmer apologists on very much, but one thing they are right about is that he's never had an opportunity to know that he'll get consistent minutes the next game. Even if he goes 0-5 and 3 TO's, that coach will still get him minutes the next night. You see the desperation every time he steps onto the floor. He's doing his best to "impress" rather than let the game come naturally to him. Who knows? Perhaps he steps up into a "Steve Kerr" type role and becomes a very valuable player for us. We won't know unless we try

 

[pshn80]

I hope it's an improvement in wins and losses. I hope they play like it is an improvement. First, get all new players on the floor, then start working on a little chemistry and teamwork. If we get Enough of that the wins will come. Don.'t know how it's going to work out. I do know I'll be there for their first home outing on Sunday.

My worry for the moment is PG play especially if they try to play both Fredette and McCallum as backup. It would seem better to play one or the other exclusively until a clear picture is had of what works. If they do that it would help their play particularly if they make the right choice first. Of course if they worry too much about their pocketbook they may try it the hard way.

 

[Glenn]

Before this turns into yet another Jimmer thread, the thread is about what will happen to our w/l record. While Jimmer and McCallum are learning to be NBA players, we will lose at the same rate as before the trade. Do you disagree, The_Jamal?

 

[SacTownKid]

I'm going to say 10+. Acy is just that damn good.

 

[CruzDude]

Wins are not what this season is about but rather setting a new team "culture" of defense first and team play. With new players, even ones with 6 and 7 years experience, it will take time to set the "culture" and get the necessary buy-in from everyone. Gay may have a big adjustment but he knows now is the time to do that and become part of a team or drop farther down. Kings have won 2 in a row. Then we want to see 3 in a row, then 4 and .... That will show progress and improvement through consistency. Talents not seen in a big bunch of years. IMHO we won't see real progress until late in the year and then maybe not real improvement until well into next year. But we are seeing bits of it most games.

 

[The_Jamal]

Before this turns into yet another Jimmer thread, the thread is about what will happen to our w/l record. While Jimmer and McCallum are learning to be NBA players, we will lose at the same rate as before the trade. Do you disagree, The_Jamal?

I really don't know. We're certainly more talented after the trade. So its a matter of how long (or if) the guys can gell together with very little time to develop chemistry. TBH, I don't think the 15 MPG the back-up PG gets is that huge of a deal. The bench has been equally crap all around, just not back-up PG slot

 

[Glenn]

I really don't know. We're certainly more talented after the trade. So its a matter of how long (or if) the guys can gell together with very little time to develop chemistry. TBH, I don't think the 15 MPG the back-up PG gets is that huge of a deal. The bench has been equally crap all around, just not back-up PG slot

I said that. Your focus on PGs has taken you quickly off subject of the thread to the point where you just see the letters PG and get defensive or so it seems. I called the bench a mob and I meant nothing kind about that in case you needed me to interpret what I said. We have an inadequate bench that will not even have a head. If 15 minutes of a game is of little consequence, we are safe.

 

[Glenn]

Wins are not what this season is about but rather setting a new team "culture" of defense first and team play. With new players, even ones with 6 and 7 years experience, it will take time to set the "culture" and get the necessary buy-in from everyone. Gay may have a big adjustment but he knows now is the time to do that and become part of a team or drop farther down. Kings have won 2 in a row. Then we want to see 3 in a row, then 4 and .... That will show progress and improvement through consistency. Talents not seen in a big bunch of years. IMHO we won't see real progress until late in the year and then maybe not real improvement until well into next year. But we are seeing bits of it most games.

I agree with you totally.

 

[Sac.1989]

interesting quote from malone re Gay

"we’re gonna roll with him and make him a focal point at times in our offense and to play to his strength as a player.”

http://cowbellkingdom.com/2013/12/1...amento-kings-transition/#sthash.hoyZFUeW.dpuf

would rather demarcus be the sole focal point with not much scope for change personally

 

[HndsmCelt]

Until we get a second PG I fear that improvements at the 3/4 will net us no real gains. We now have a top grade back up PG starting for us with no reasonable back up. MCcalum is not ready for real playtime and Jimmer is just not PG material.

 

[TyFreak Evans]

interesting quote from malone re Gay

"we’re gonna roll with him and make him a focal point at times in our offense and to play to his strength as a player.”

http://cowbellkingdom.com/2013/12/1...amento-kings-transition/#sthash.hoyZFUeW.dpuf

would rather demarcus be the sole focal point with not much scope for change personally

I tend to agree with Malone on this one, and here's why. And, for this, allow me to utilize the Miami Heat, as an example. LeBron James is clearly their best player. But in no way is he the focal point of that offense. Because there is this one other dude named Dwyane Wade. This provides a monster of a defensive game plan, because if LeBron is not getting the points, Wade is. And if Wade is not getting the points, LeBron is.
For this very reason, I tend to agree with Malone, why not make multiple players be our focal points on offense? If DeMarcus is having an off night, go to Rudy. If Rudy is having an off night, go to DeMarcus.
I think Malone's plan is great!!!

 

[LPKingsFan]

interesting quote from malone re Gay

"we’re gonna roll with him and make him a focal point at times in our offense and to play to his strength as a player.”

http://cowbellkingdom.com/2013/12/1...amento-kings-transition/#sthash.hoyZFUeW.dpuf

would rather demarcus be the sole focal point with not much scope for change personally

That whole article is worth a read.

In his words, Rudy Gay‘s first practice as a Sacramento King was “very intellectual”.

Not something you hear every day.

Also, despite reports/assumptions, there's this:

Malone, however, would not reveal who he’ll start opposite Gay at the other forward spot on the floor.

 

[Padrino]

interesting quote from malone re Gay

"we’re gonna roll with him and make him a focal point at times in our offense and to play to his strength as a player.”

http://cowbellkingdom.com/2013/12/1...amento-kings-transition/#sthash.hoyZFUeW.dpuf

would rather demarcus be the sole focal point with not much scope for change personally

i don't find that quote to be terribly revealing. the kings have an established first option in demarcus cousins. rudy gay is now the second option. any winning team has at least two focal points for their offensive attack (a winning team also plays above average defense, which is the area where the kings are still seriously lacking). but, as far as the offense is concerned, the question is whether or not isaiah thomas can truly function as a playmaker, sacrificing his own offense in order to make the game easier for both DMC and rudy gay...

 

[Kingsfan23]

We are in the good and unique position of actively trying to improve for the future with additions/building a culture while still getting this top 3-7 pick. Usually it is either or but despite how much better we can be with gay we still have played a heavy home schedule in a murderous conference

 

[Glenn]

Now that we have Williams, it kinda makes me wonder if we could better use Mbaha Moute. Ah, well, there are arguments in all ways and I kinda like Williams.

 

[Entity]

Did he decline to comment on the PF spot? I mean was it asked or did he just not say anything about it?

 

[mac]

I wouldn't be so sure Glenn, that we're going after another back-up PG. I feel that one of the reasons we did this move was to find some minutes for Jimmer/McCallum. And why not? This season is about finding future core players. I don't agree with the Jimmer apologists on very much, but one thing they are right about is that he's never had an opportunity to know that he'll get consistent minutes the next game. Even if he goes 0-5 and 3 TO's, that coach will still get him minutes the next night. You see the desperation every time he steps onto the floor. He's doing his best to "impress" rather than let the game come naturally to him. Who knows? Perhaps he steps up into a "Steve Kerr" type role and becomes a very valuable player for us. We won't know unless we try

This is sort of what I hope, although I'm not sure that PG is the best position for him. It's also about fit - we roughly know what Jimmer's strengths and weaknesses are. Throwing him out in a lineup with Thornton, Mclemore/Williams, Outlaw and Ndiaye as the only real big is an obvious recipe for disaster. You have ZERO players who can create, ZERO who will draw double teams to actually kick it out to the shooters, and everything becomes jumpshot-based with little attacking of the paint. It makes more sense to me to have Jimmer start and IT come off the bench, with the only loophole being Jimmer's defense.

 

[Chicken Chaser]

Oops, I thought -5+ meant "5 or more", not lose 5 more games.

 

[TyFreak Evans]

Oops, I thought -5+ meant "5 or more", not lose 5 more games.

You have officially failed "KingsFans.com Grammar 101"

 

[VF21]

You have officially failed "KingsFans.com Grammar 101"

Actually, I agree with Chicken Chaser. The choices could have been worded better. Sometimes a hyphen is just a hyphen and not a minus sign. I almost made the wrong selection, which was compounded by the fact that in general you go from positive first to negative last.

 

[TyFreak Evans]

Actually, I agree with Chicken Chaser. The choices could have been worded better. Sometimes a hyphen is just a hyphen and not a minus sign. I almost made the wrong selection, which was compounded by the fact that in general you go from positive first to negative last.

VF21, I see your point, and I see Chicken Chaser's point as well. My follow up comment was meant to be more of a joke/me poking fun at Chicken Chaser. But I totally see where both you and Chicken Chaser are coming from...

 

[randymoss1881]

interesting quote from malone re Gay

"we’re gonna roll with him and make him a focal point at times in our offense and to play to his strength as a player.”

http://cowbellkingdom.com/2013/12/1...amento-kings-transition/#sthash.hoyZFUeW.dpuf

would rather demarcus be the sole focal point with not much scope for change personally

I found someone positive quotes.

"His ball-pounding, shot-clock-killing days are over. That's not a hope; it's a direct order from his new coach Michael Malone.

"We don’t want it [the ball] to be just dribble, dribble, dribble, no ball movement, easy to guard and shoot," Malone said, via Jason Jones of The Sacramento Bee."

"With Cousins demanding touches and Thomas controlling the tempo, Gay won't be forced into making something out of nothing in isolation sets. Instead, as Rotoworld.com's Aaron Bruski notes, the Kings will "get him moving toward the basket and shooting with his feet set."

Those ball-pounding isolations have yielded Gay just 0.77 points per possession, via Synergy Sports(subscription required).

But when the Raptors found a hint of offensive creativity, Gay was once again a weapon. As a spot-up shooter, he's buried 50 percent of his three-point attempts. As an off-ball cutter, he's wracked up 1.28 points per possession and converted
64.7 percent of his chances."

It looks like we won't be asking Gay to ISO a lot rather have him do cuts and spot up shooting which should increase his field goal %. He still will go ISO sometimes when we need him but Malone will lee him in check.

 

[flamecrow]

I'm impatient. I want this team to start winning tomorrow. I don't want lottery or draft picks. I want playoffs, and playoffs this year. I also want Jimmer to succeed and I want all the Jimmer fans to tell us "we told you so".

 

[Bricklayer]

interesting quote from malone re Gay

"we’re gonna roll with him and make him a focal point at times in our offense and to play to his strength as a player.”

http://cowbellkingdom.com/2013/12/1...amento-kings-transition/#sthash.hoyZFUeW.dpuf

would rather demarcus be the sole focal point with not much scope for change personally

Advanced stats guys have been out of control on this. Rudy Gay's publicity black eye has worked against it. But I always thought it was completely 100% clear that we brought in Rudy Gay to be the #2 to Cousins #1. Another goto guy. Not the main goto guy. But the #2. A counter. A way to attack to keep people from loading up on Cuz. He's not a roleplayer, he's not a bench player, he's a longtime near 20ppg scorer with the ability to create his own offense. He's a lower tier star, if a disgraced one at the moment. So I thought it was obvious from the beginning that all the negative claptrap and silly impractical commentary aside, that was how he was going to be set up and used here.

 

[Entity]

He wasn't asked and did not say who was PF. I don't know why the writer decided to throw that out there. But in his tone I sensed it will be JT. Why you ask? Well you are breaking in a new guy A star if you will. You don't want him learning on the fly with one of the other starters only being there a week or so himself.

 

[The_Jamal]

Advanced stats guys have been out of control on this. Rudy Gay's publicity black eye has worked against it. But I always thought it was completely 100% clear that we brought in Rudy Gay to be the #2 to Cousins #1. Another goto guy. Not the main goto guy. But the #2. A counter. A way to attack to keep people from loading up on Cuz. He's not a roleplayer, he's not a bench player, he's a longtime near 20ppg scorer with the ability to create his own offense. He's a lower tier star, if a disgraced one at the moment. So I thought it was obvious from the beginning that all the negative claptrap and silly impractical commentary aside, that was how he was going to be set up and used here.

Unfortunately, as advanced numbers get more popular (not just basketball, but baseball as well) the average joe who hasn't spent any time with learning the concepts will blatantly use numbers wrong. They'll see Gay has a crazy high USG% and low efficiency numbers, without understanding why or what the context behind getting those are.

Personally, I see no reason he can't return to his Memphis form. I'll trust 5 years of consistent play, in a structured system, with a post presence, and a coach who won't take any BS (all reports show Casey basically being on Keith Smart level of quality) over what he did with Toronto. They had no post presence, a virtually identical player in Derozan, and a coach who had no idea how to use him.

 

[origkds]

How can our current winning percentage this year not go up after trading John Salmons for Rudy Gay? Were Vasquez, Patterson and Hayes that important to us that the net effect of the trade would be negative? I voted +10, at least over our current clip. We finally acquire a bona fide star and some people voted that we will actually do worse. I always thought that when you have better players you increase your odds of winning more games.