Kings Players' Rankings in 4 Combined Stats

[Bricklayer]

1) PER
Since I just looked at PERs, here's what we have as a team (PER of 15 = average)

DeMarcus Cousins 26.16 (#6 in NBA)
Isaiah Thomas 21.02 (#24 in NBA)
Rudy Gay 18.29 (#57 in NBA)
Jimmer Fredette 16.62 (#98 in NBA)
Derrick Williams 12.66 (#231 in NBA)
Quincy Acy 11.73 (#265 in NBA)
Travis Outlaw 11.05 (#296 in NBA)
Carl Landry 11.05 (#297 in NBA)
Jason Thompson 11.05 (#303 in NBA)
Reggie Evans 9.03 (#359 in NBA)
Ben McLemore 7.62 (#385 in NBA)
Jason Terry 7.60 (#386 in NBA)
Aaron Gray 6.11 (#409 in NBA)
Ray McCallum 5.31 (#421 in NBA)

Traded Kings:
Patterson #135
Vasquez #250
Hayes #312
Thornton #341
Salmons #364
Mbah a Moute #370
Ndiaye #432

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2) Defensive Rating

Lower = better.

Vasquez 114
McLemore 112
Thornton 112
McCallum 112
Thomas 111
Fredette 111
Salmons 111
Landry 109
Williams 109
Thompson 109
Outlaw 109
Patterson 109
Gay 108
Mbah a Moute 108
Ndiaye 108
Gray 108
Acy 107
Hayes 105
Cousins 102

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3) On/Off Court +/-

McCallum +22.5
Thomas +5.8
Cousins +5.6
Gay +4.1
Thompson +4.0
Hayes +3.6
Thornton +3.2
Outlaw +1.6
Patterson -1.4
Gray -1.7
Mcah a Moute -2.1
McLemore -3.2
Fredette -4.1
Landry -4.1
Williams -4.8
Salmons -4.8
Acy -6.4
Vasquez -6.4
Ndiaye -15.6

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4) Net Production (Own Prod - Opp Prod)
Cousins +10.2
Gay +7.1
Thomas +4.9
Mbah a Moute +2.9
Fredette -0.7
Williams -1.4
Outlaw -1.9
Thornton -3.6
Vasquez -3.7
Patterson -4.6
Salmons -5.2
Thompson -5.6
Gray -8.4
McLemore -8.9
Hayes -9.3
Acy -11.4
Landry -12.4
McCallum -12.5
Ndiaye -15.1

 

[Glenn]

I hope PDA has this as if he shouldn't. 4 guys with a PER over average, one is killing ball movement and I wish wasn't on the team and the other has seen his end with the Kings. I'm speaking of IT and Jimmer. I am beginning to think Jimmer's "career" with the Kings has really been odd. He was bad the first two years and when he begins to get his game together, he gets kicked to the side. I will always wonder how his first two years would have gone with a different coach. He's a tweener but honestly I trust him more at pg than IT which is not necessarily a compliment. It's an extraordinarily sad team.

They are ours. Our hope lies with Gay returning to early Kings Gay and not Toronto Gay, the Gay that is a result of no Cuz on the court and no help from IT. We need a starting pg to salvage this mess. A more traditional pg would be a good start to building off Cuz and Gay. Most teams don't need a whole lot more than two studs and I will swear to the day I die that IT is killing this team. Hell, Malone all but has been saying it. Unfortunately he doesn't have the balls to sit IT down.

IT maybe needs to get the message but it's like trying to change DNA. It can't be done unless Chubbs knows how. IT is what he is. There is no use complaining. I may complain about him but as us oldsters say, a leopard can't change his spots. The team needs a change and as I think we will get the defensive stopper in the draft, we need to get at least an average starter at pg. I think IT will be gone. We can't break the luxury tax barrier for a guy who may cause more problems than he cures. If we get nothing in return, at least we get sanity on the court. Sorry pizza guys.


Edit: Ben will have no career on a team with Cuz, Gay, and IT. He has a chance without IT. I am only duplicating what brick has been saying for the entire season but, in my mind, the presence of IT is effecting far more on this team than many would like to recognize. The good thing is that the "fix" may be simple.

 

[Hadlowe]

While I am generally a fan of Cousins, Defensive Rating is something of a flawed stat in that it gives a very high value to defensive rebounds (something Cousins is very good at.) While that tells you how good someone is at ending an offensive possession, and that is an important part of defense, it doesn't tell you how that shot came to be a miss in the first place.

Still, when you look at all the stats, it's pretty clear who the #1, 2 and 3 punches are for the team. The offseason needs to be spent gathering defensive roleplayers to slot in next to Cousins, Gay and maybe IT.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

On Cousins defense - I actually think he has taken a step forward defensively when he's going up against someone one on on. He can do that effectively.

Where his defensive numbers kind of tank is in the pick and roll, which I don't think he defends very well, and in transition where I think he is very poor. He tends to get burned by the energy bigs because they set tough screens and head straight to the rim (and he's late to recover) or they just beat him up the floor.

Some of that is his own fault, obviously. He's in good shape, but I still don't know how conditioned he is. He does the complaining routine which distracts him from getting back on defense as well, but I think these are areas where he can improve on as he gets older / more mature.

I think these stats are pretty accurate, but I think Ben's might be the MOST accurate, and in a bad way. He has been a disaster everywhere and these stats back that up. He's just not doing anything well.

 

[Hadlowe]

On Cousins defense - I actually think he has taken a step forward defensively when he's going up against someone one on on. He can do that effectively.

Where his defensive numbers kind of tank is in the pick and roll, which I don't think he defends very well, and in transition where I think he is very poor. He tends to get burned by the energy bigs because they set tough screens and head straight to the rim (and he's late to recover) or they just beat him up the floor.

Some of that is his own fault, obviously. He's in good shape, but I still don't know how conditioned he is. He does the complaining routine which distracts him from getting back on defense as well, but I think these are areas where he can improve on as he gets older / more mature.

I think these stats are pretty accurate, but I think Ben's might be the MOST accurate, and in a bad way. He has been a disaster everywhere and these stats back that up. He's just not doing anything well.

The pick and roll is a problem, but it's a problem for almost everyone in the league. Miami and Indiana are the only teams that defend it well, and they still have trouble. The way to beat Miami's swarming defense is with quick passes out of the double, floor spacing, and having your picker slip when Miami traps. With Indiana, they will give you every single long two that you want because Hibbert never comes out past the three point line unless he is switched or defending a stretch big.

The Kings try to play like Indiana, ice the pick and force the ball baseline or give up a mid-range shot. Cousins does his job, but most of the time, IT gets rubbed off at which point his height prevents him from being a factor. Couple that with poor rotations from our wings and no rim protection to speak of and you've got major breakdowns.

 

[ESP47]

I hope PDA has this as if he shouldn't. 4 guys with a PER over average, one is killing ball movement and I wish wasn't on the team and the other has seen his end with the Kings. I'm speaking of IT and Jimmer. I am beginning to think Jimmer's "career" with the Kings has really been odd. He was bad the first two years and when he begins to get his game together, he gets kicked to the side. I will always wonder how his first two years would have gone with a different coach. He's a tweener but honestly I trust him more at pg than IT which is not necessarily a compliment. It's an extraordinarily sad team.

They are ours. Our hope lies with Gay returning to early Kings Gay and not Toronto Gay, the Gay that is a result of no Cuz on the court and no help from IT. We need a starting pg to salvage this mess. A more traditional pg would be a good start to building off Cuz and Gay. Most teams don't need a whole lot more than two studs and I will swear to the day I die that IT is killing this team. Hell, Malone all but has been saying it. Unfortunately he doesn't have the balls to sit IT down.

IT maybe needs to get the message but it's like trying to change DNA. It can't be done unless Chubbs knows how. IT is what he is. There is no use complaining. I may complain about him but as us oldsters say, a leopard can't change his spots. The team needs a change and as I think we will get the defensive stopper in the draft, we need to get at least an average starter at pg. I think IT will be gone. We can't break the luxury tax barrier for a guy who may cause more problems than he cures. If we get nothing in return, at least we get sanity on the court. Sorry pizza guys.


Edit: Ben will have no career on a team with Cuz, Gay, and IT. He has a chance without IT. I am only duplicating what brick has been saying for the entire season but, in my mind, the presence of IT is effecting far more on this team than many would like to recognize. The good thing is that the "fix" may be simple.

Brick made this thread so we can discuss the TEAM and the TEAM stats. What the stats show is that aside from our big 3, this entire team is terrible and needs to be overhauled.

IT is:

2nd on the team in PER.
15th in Drtg (all of our guards are 111-114 and IT is 111)
2nd in +/- (really he's 1st since McCallum hasn't played much)
3rd in net production

How on earth did you look at those stats and then construct that garbage post above? Take your propaganda elsewhere. What you wrote there is an absolute joke. How you contrived any of that from the stats Brick provided is beyond me. I don't want IT to be the starting PG either but you're looking at stats that tell you IT is head and shoulders above any player not named Gay/Cousins and somehow you twist it into IT being the guy that's holding everyone back. Quit whacking away at this dead horse. We get it, you don't like IT. Go stand at the top of a mountain and yell it for all the world to see. No one cares. If you want to bad mouth him then go find one of the other hundred threads we have on him. Just knock it off with this anti IT garbage. It's repetitive and annoying. There's 10 other guys on this team that are terrible, lets talk about them while were at it once in a while.

 

[sdballer]

There's 10 other guys on this team that are terrible, lets talk about them while were at it once in a while.

But those ten other guys aren't controlling the ball the vast majority of the game nor are they the instigator on defensive breakdowns. Surely, you do see the difference?

 

[Gilles]

IT is:

2nd on the team in PER.
15th in Drtg (all of our guards are 111-114 and IT is 111)
2nd in +/- (really he's 1st since McCallum hasn't played much)
3rd in net production

1. His PER production comes from getting points and assists. Mike James did too, but he was only second best player on his team, and actually ran 5th best offense in the NBA, because nobody bothered to defend Toronto as opponents scored even more easily.
2. It's a stat, heavily relying on a team and box score numbers. He's a better defender than Jimmer, he gets a cookie. Btw apparently he's just as good a defender as Afflalo.
3. Again he beats Jimmer, but lose to a rookie from obscure college? No soup for him! A cookie? Maybe.
4. See 1.

 

[Spike]

IT is head and shoulders above any player not named Gay/Cousins and somehow you twist it into IT being the guy that's holding everyone back.

Well, yeah, there is the fact that everyone outside of Cousins/Gay is pretty bad, and the fact that IT is still above the rest speaks to the quality of the rest, but there is this:
Isaiah Thomas is #2 in the entire NBA in Time of Possession.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, he does impact the rest of the team way more than many of us may be willing to acknowledge, as long as he remains the team's starting PG. Yesterday's lack of activity on this front seems to confirm this to me. For me, the question is: knowing IT's style of play helps him offensively but hurts the team, how will Malone manage the minutes going forward? If Ray McCallum is going to be the beneficiary of more minutes, I certainly hope that it is at the expense of IT's minutes, because if not, you're just inserting another player who isn't going to be touching the ball.

To me, that has a pretty direct correlation to stat #4 (net production), unless I'm misunderstanding it. You can't produce if you aren't given an option to produce. Ditto Ben McLemore. As an example:
In December, Ben averaged about 8 shots a game. He scored double digits in 6 games (yeah, not great, but still.)
Since then, he has taken more than 8 shots (using that previous average) 7 times, and scored in double digits 5 times. This coincided with IT increasing his shots per game from Dec - Now.

I mean, it's only one small example, and it's not meant to say that I think Ben should be shooting more (again, acknowledging the issue of quality players), but it does seem to back up the assertion that IT is a bigger issue than many seem to realize, not taking into consideration his defense. He needs to be back in the 6th man role.

IT holds on to the ball a ton. Because of it, he is going to be the focal point. As I said before, I'll be curious to see if Malone has any impact now that the trade deadline is over. Do you keep giving heavy minutes to a guy who is clearly playing for his contract? If you want to develop your youth, can you do it while allowing IT to maintain his performance?

 

[LPKingsFan]

I don't think net production is affected by playing time, because it just compares your production versus your opponents' during the time you are on the floor.

 

[Glenn]

Well, yeah, there is the fact that everyone outside of Cousins/Gay is pretty bad, and the fact that IT is still above the rest speaks to the quality of the rest, but there is this:
Isaiah Thomas is #2 in the entire NBA in Time of Possession.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, he does impact the rest of the team way more than many of us may be willing to acknowledge, as long as he remains the team's starting PG. Yesterday's lack of activity on this front seems to confirm this to me. For me, the question is: knowing IT's style of play helps him offensively but hurts the team, how will Malone manage the minutes going forward? If Ray McCallum is going to be the beneficiary of more minutes, I certainly hope that it is at the expense of IT's minutes, because if not, you're just inserting another player who isn't going to be touching the ball.

To me, that has a pretty direct correlation to stat #4 (net production), unless I'm misunderstanding it. You can't produce if you aren't given an option to produce. Ditto Ben McLemore. As an example:
In December, Ben averaged about 8 shots a game. He scored double digits in 6 games (yeah, not great, but still.)
Since then, he has taken more than 8 shots (using that previous average) 7 times, and scored in double digits 5 times. This coincided with IT increasing his shots per game from Dec - Now.

I mean, it's only one small example, and it's not meant to say that I think Ben should be shooting more (again, acknowledging the issue of quality players), but it does seem to back up the assertion that IT is a bigger issue than many seem to realize, not taking into consideration his defense. He needs to be back in the 6th man role.

IT holds on to the ball a ton. Because of it, he is going to be the focal point. As I said before, I'll be curious to see if Malone has any impact now that the trade deadline is over. Do you keep giving heavy minutes to a guy who is clearly playing for his contract? If you want to develop your youth, can you do it while allowing IT to maintain his performance?

If IT had tried harder, he might have come in #1 AND improved his PER. Slacker!!

 

[ESP47]

1. His PER production comes from getting points and assists. Mike James did too, but he was only second best player on his team, and actually ran 5th best offense in the NBA, because nobody bothered to defend Toronto as opponents scored even more easily.
2. It's a stat, heavily relying on a team and box score numbers. He's a better defender than Jimmer, he gets a cookie. Btw apparently he's just as good a defender as Afflalo.
3. Again he beats Jimmer, but lose to a rookie from obscure college? No soup for him! A cookie? Maybe.
4. See 1.

1. Well he's a PG so he's supposed to get points and assists. His defense is bad, we all know that. Either way he's better than the rest of the PG's on this team.
2. Yeah it relies on the teams numbers. That's why all the SG's and PG's are in the 111-114 range. Even Salmons and we know he's a better defender than the rest of them.
3. Ever heard of small sample size? Like when a center plays 5 minutes a game and has a per/36 of 12/15/5blks. It's just a sample size, lets not be ridiculous.
4. See 1.

Well, yeah, there is the fact that everyone outside of Cousins/Gay is pretty bad, and the fact that IT is still above the rest speaks to the quality of the rest, but there is this:
Isaiah Thomas is #2 in the entire NBA in Time of Possession.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, he does impact the rest of the team way more than many of us may be willing to acknowledge, as long as he remains the team's starting PG. Yesterday's lack of activity on this front seems to confirm this to me. For me, the question is: knowing IT's style of play helps him offensively but hurts the team, how will Malone manage the minutes going forward? If Ray McCallum is going to be the beneficiary of more minutes, I certainly hope that it is at the expense of IT's minutes, because if not, you're just inserting another player who isn't going to be touching the ball.

To me, that has a pretty direct correlation to stat #4 (net production), unless I'm misunderstanding it. You can't produce if you aren't given an option to produce. Ditto Ben McLemore. As an example:
In December, Ben averaged about 8 shots a game. He scored double digits in 6 games (yeah, not great, but still.)
Since then, he has taken more than 8 shots (using that previous average) 7 times, and scored in double digits 5 times. This coincided with IT increasing his shots per game from Dec - Now.

I mean, it's only one small example, and it's not meant to say that I think Ben should be shooting more (again, acknowledging the issue of quality players), but it does seem to back up the assertion that IT is a bigger issue than many seem to realize, not taking into consideration his defense. He needs to be back in the 6th man role.

IT holds on to the ball a ton. Because of it, he is going to be the focal point. As I said before, I'll be curious to see if Malone has any impact now that the trade deadline is over. Do you keep giving heavy minutes to a guy who is clearly playing for his contract? If you want to develop your youth, can you do it while allowing IT to maintain his performance?

So Ben McLemore needs to shoot more? The guy who shoots 1 or 2 for 8 every game needs to shoot more? If Ben can't even make the shots he's taking, why would he need to shoot more? What does is matter if you take 5 shots or 15 shots? If you can't make the shots you're given, then more shots is just going to equal more misses. It's not like McLemore is only forcing up shots when he can get them because IT is hogging the ball. McLemore has no moves, can't get open, can't dribble the ball, can't finish at the rim, can't get to the free throw line and can't make wide open shots most of the time. How on earth is any of that IT's fault? McLemore was just as bad with Vasquez as the PG. You're trying to make excuses for the guy when the only excuse at the moment is that he's just a bad player.

Look I know IT isn't going to lead us into the playoffs but this team is jam packed full of scrubs. They were scrubs before IT came along and they'll be scrubs after IT leaves. Yet people trying to blame IT as if he's holding this team back when he is merely just 1 of many problems not named Cousins/Gay. Blame Fredette for not being able to handle the ball. Blame McLemore for not being able to do anything at all. Blame Thornton for turning into a turd. Blame Thompson for not being able to protect the rim. Blame Williams for being wildly inconsistent. Blame Acy for being undersized. Blame Gray for being the least athletic person in the NBA. Blame Landry for being a mere shell of his former self. Blame Outlaw for being Outlaw. Blame McCallum for being young. IT is not the reason why these guys are bad. They're bad all on their own.

The only guy in the league that could help these guys would be Chris Paul and he's not here, nor is he ever coming here. So I guess the only thing we can do is start getting rid of them and hope we can get better guys in their place.

 

[Hadlowe]

Well, yeah, there is the fact that everyone outside of Cousins/Gay is pretty bad, and the fact that IT is still above the rest speaks to the quality of the rest, but there is this:
Isaiah Thomas is #2 in the entire NBA in Time of Possession.

Thank you. I have been looking for that stat for quite a while. Now I know what to call it.

 

[Spike]

So Ben McLemore needs to shoot more? The guy who shoots 1 or 2 for 8 every game needs to shoot more? If Ben can't even make the shots he's taking, why would he need to shoot more? What does is matter if you take 5 shots or 15 shots? If you can't make the shots you're given, then more shots is just going to equal more misses. It's not like McLemore is only forcing up shots when he can get them because IT is hogging the ball. McLemore has no moves, can't get open, can't dribble the ball, can't finish at the rim, can't get to the free throw line and can't make wide open shots most of the time. How on earth is any of that IT's fault? McLemore was just as bad with Vasquez as the PG. You're trying to make excuses for the guy when the only excuse at the moment is that he's just a bad player.

You missed the point I was trying to make. Let me try again.

You can't produce without the ball. IT holds the ball for an insane amount of time.

 

[Spike]

Thank you. I have been looking for that stat for quite a while. Now I know what to call it.

I wish I could take credit for it, but Bricklayer posted it earlier somewhere else. The stats.nba.com is pretty interesting.

 

[Padrino]

So Ben McLemore needs to shoot more? The guy who shoots 1 or 2 for 8 every game needs to shoot more? If Ben can't even make the shots he's taking, why would he need to shoot more? What does is matter if you take 5 shots or 15 shots? If you can't make the shots you're given, then more shots is just going to equal more misses. It's not like McLemore is only forcing up shots when he can get them because IT is hogging the ball. McLemore has no moves, can't get open, can't dribble the ball, can't finish at the rim, can't get to the free throw line and can't make wide open shots most of the time. How on earth is any of that IT's fault? McLemore was just as bad with Vasquez as the PG. You're trying to make excuses for the guy when the only excuse at the moment is that he's just a bad player.

Look I know IT isn't going to lead us into the playoffs but this team is jam packed full of scrubs. They were scrubs before IT came along and they'll be scrubs after IT leaves. Yet people trying to blame IT as if he's holding this team back when he is merely just 1 of many problems not named Cousins/Gay. Blame Fredette for not being able to handle the ball. Blame McLemore for not being able to do anything at all. Blame Thornton for turning into a turd. Blame Thompson for not being able to protect the rim. Blame Williams for being wildly inconsistent. Blame Acy for being undersized. Blame Gray for being the least athletic person in the NBA. Blame Landry for being a mere shell of his former self. Blame Outlaw for being Outlaw. Blame McCallum for being young. IT is not the reason why these guys are bad. They're bad all on their own.

The only guy in the league that could help these guys would be Chris Paul and he's not here, nor is he ever coming here. So I guess the only thing we can do is start getting rid of them and hope we can get better guys in their place.

i dispute quite a bit of what you're saying regarding ben mclemore. he's proved to be very capable off the ball, and has both the footspeed and the IQ in off-ball situations to get open. in fact, he's just about the only king who seems to know how to move without the ball in his hands, which unfortunately does just about nothing for him since the kings' offensive sets are so iso-heavy, primitive, and altogether unimaginative...

look, this is coming from a day-one critic of the draft pick that brought mclemore to sacramento. i'm not a very big fan of his, and i'm not a fan of many of the scrubs on this roster, but you're overstating their ineptitude. they are professional basketball players with some utility, however limited. they should be playing better than they are, and that's been the story in sacramento for the last half-decade. a team like the phoenix suns is playing well above expectations, while the kings continue to play well below their ability...

the coach deserves a considerable portion of the blame for failing to direct his team with the necessary authority, as does the front office for failing to provide a defensive-minded head coach with even one defensive-minded player. but, on the court, my expectation is that the kings' starting PG, who possesses the ball more frequently than damn near every other player in the entire league, does something, anything to try and make his teammates better, rather than playing primarily for himself...

here's the deal: a team that is so top heavy and lacking in natural distributors is unlikely to develop much in the way of chemistry, regardless of whatever future increase in talent level occurs amongst the kings' role players. a good PG, hell, even just a steady PG who understands his role, will always be able to make his teammates better. such a PG can help the whole team move the ball more effectively, as passing is a contagious effort. both demarcus cousins and rudy gay are willing passers when things are going well. but a PG like isaiah thomas is not out to make his teammates better. it's just not a priority for him. that said, one certainly does not need to acquire chris paul to get the kings' lower profile players involved, and it's quite the ludicrous sentiment that you believe paul to be the only PG in the league who could make these kings better...

if ben mclemore--a rookie--is struggling, a PG who understand his role as a distributor can help mclemore build confidence by swinging the ball to him no matter how many times he misses. if this organization is to effectively evaluate the worth of their shooting guard, whom they drafted because of his shooting ability, then he needs opportunities to find his confidence. his jumper is both exceedingly athletic and pitch-perfect in form. the shots should start falling as he continues to grow into his nba role...

 

[ESP47]

You missed the point I was trying to make. Let me try again.

You can't produce without the ball. IT holds the ball for an insane amount of time.

I got your point. Exactly who on the team, other than Cousins/Gay, would be producing with the ball in their hands? He's holding who back exactly? Other than maybe McCallum getting minutes and Landry posting up, I don't see who IT is keeping from scoring. It doesn't matter how the ball winds up in the basket as long as it does. No one else on this team other than the couple guys I mentioned can score better than him or run an offense better than him. It's a moot point.

i dispute quite a bit of what you're saying regarding ben mclemore. he's proved to be very capable off the ball, and has both the footspeed and the IQ in off-ball situations to get open. in fact, he's just about the only king who seems to know how to move without the ball in his hands, which unfortunately does just about nothing for him since the kings' offensive sets are so iso-heavy, primitive, and altogether unimaginative...

look, this is coming from a day-one critic of the draft pick that brought mclemore to sacramento. i'm not a very big fan of his, and i'm not a fan of many of the scrubs on this roster, but you're overstating their ineptitude. they are professional basketball players with some utility, however limited. they should be playing better than they are, and that's been the story in sacramento for the last half-decade. a team like the phoenix suns is playing well above expectations, while the kings continue to play well below their ability...

the coach deserves a considerable portion of the blame for failing to direct his team with the necessary authority, as does the front office for failing to provide a defensive-minded head coach with even one defensive-minded player. but, on the court, my expectation is that the kings' starting PG, who possesses the ball more frequently than damn near every other player in the entire league, does something, anything to try and make his teammates better, rather than playing primarily for himself...

here's the deal: a team that is so top heavy and lacking in natural distributors is unlikely to develop much in the way of chemistry, regardless of whatever future increase in talent level occurs amongst the kings' role players. a good PG, hell, even just a steady PG who understands his role, will always be able to make his teammates better. such a PG can help the whole team move the ball more effectively, as passing is a contagious effort. both demarcus cousins and rudy gay are willing passers when things are going well. but a PG like isaiah thomas is not out to make his teammates better. it's just not a priority for him. that said, one certainly does not need to acquire chris paul to get the kings' lower profile players involved, and it's quite the ludicrous sentiment that you believe paul to be the only PG in the league who could make these kings better...

if ben mclemore--a rookie--is struggling, a PG who understand his role as a distributor can help mclemore build confidence by swinging the ball to him no matter how many times he misses. if this organization is to effectively evaluate the worth of their shooting guard, whom they drafted because of his shooting ability, then he needs opportunities to find his confidence. his jumper is both exceedingly athletic and pitch-perfect in form. the shots should start falling as he continues to grow into his nba role...

If you keep feeding McLemore and he keeps missing, eventually it's going to break his confidence. I mean something is wrong with you if you're confident with shooting 3-15 every night. You're going to start wondering how much longer you have left in the league. If you can't make 3 or 4 out of 8, how is shooting and missing more going to help your confidence? His shot should be ok, it's everything else that I worry about. He can't get to the rim and when he does he can't finish. The points in the paint that do the bulk of bumping up players shooting percentages are pretty much null for McLemore. I'm all for being patient with rookies but they have to at least show something. As of right now he's bordering in the Thomas Robinson category. The only difference is that he's a few years younger so there's still that possibility that he could turn into something but it's looking bleak.

I just don't see the point in getting our scrap heap players more involved. They were on the scrap heap for a reason. Williams is the best of the rest and he was barely getting on the court in Minnesota. Acy and Gray hardly got any playing time. Evans and Terry are playing as bad as they ever have. Outlaw and Jimmer wouldn't even see the court for most teams and McCallum is a rookie 12th man. Our bench is deep in 10-12th men. Were basically complaining about not getting Mateen Cleaves more involved. Getting these guys involved is not going to translate into wins. Getting these guys out of here and replaced with more talent will translate to wins. There's nothing to develop here. You keep a couple of them because every team needs those guys at the end of the bench and you ship the rest of the guys out and hope you get value in return. At that point we can start worrying about whether the rest of the team is involved or not.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Re: McLemore's moving off the ball--I agree with Padrino that this is something he's shown the ability to do well, but he hasn't been able to make it count; whether he's not doing it at the right places/times, or his teammates are failing to get him the ball as they should, I don't know.

Given that the rest of the season should be used to experiment with potential building blocks to see how they fit, I'd like to see some offense run with Cousins in the high post, Gay in the low post--where he's been most effective--and McLemore aggressively moving without the ball.

 

[jsb]

Who cares if Ben moves well off the ball, that doesn't produce points. The guy misses freaking layups and can barely dribble the ball.

 

[Hadlowe]

I got your point. Exactly who on the team, other than Cousins/Gay, would be producing with the ball in their hands? He's holding who back exactly? Other than maybe McCallum getting minutes and Landry posting up, I don't see who IT is keeping from scoring. It doesn't matter how the ball winds up in the basket as long as it does. No one else on this team other than the couple guys I mentioned can score better than him or run an offense better than him. It's a moot point.

If you keep feeding McLemore and he keeps missing, eventually it's going to break his confidence. I mean something is wrong with you if you're confident with shooting 3-15 every night. You're going to start wondering how much longer you have left in the league. If you can't make 3 or 4 out of 8, how is shooting and missing more going to help your confidence? His shot should be ok, it's everything else that I worry about. He can't get to the rim and when he does he can't finish. The points in the paint that do the bulk of bumping up players shooting percentages are pretty much null for McLemore. I'm all for being patient with rookies but they have to at least show something. As of right now he's bordering in the Thomas Robinson category. The only difference is that he's a few years younger so there's still that possibility that he could turn into something but it's looking bleak.

I just don't see the point in getting our scrap heap players more involved. They were on the scrap heap for a reason. Williams is the best of the rest and he was barely getting on the court in Minnesota. Acy and Gray hardly got any playing time. Evans and Terry are playing as bad as they ever have. Outlaw and Jimmer wouldn't even see the court for most teams and McCallum is a rookie 12th man. Our bench is deep in 10-12th men. Were basically complaining about not getting Mateen Cleaves more involved. Getting these guys involved is not going to translate into wins. Getting these guys out of here and replaced with more talent will translate to wins. There's nothing to develop here. You keep a couple of them because every team needs those guys at the end of the bench and you ship the rest of the guys out and hope you get value in return. At that point we can start worrying about whether the rest of the team is involved or not.

Chicken or egg? Do our role players not make shots because they don't get the ball in position to score, or do they not get the ball in position to score because IT doesn't trust them?

I tend to think it's the latter. If you watch games, you will see a half-dozen times per game where a player makes a backdoor cut or curls off a screen and there is a pass available for an open shot, and they just don't get the ball. IT misses them. Cousins misses them. That's a chemistry problem. You see it on fast breaks. You see it on secondary breaks. You see it in our set plays. You see it in our broken plays.

Our offense is 15th ranked in the league mostly on the individual talent of our top three scorers. If our top three found ways to get easy looks for JT and Ben, we could easily be in the top ten.

 

[Padrino]

If you keep feeding McLemore and he keeps missing, eventually it's going to break his confidence. I mean something is wrong with you if you're confident with shooting 3-15 every night. You're going to start wondering how much longer you have left in the league. If you can't make 3 or 4 out of 8, how is shooting and missing more going to help your confidence? His shot should be ok, it's everything else that I worry about. He can't get to the rim and when he does he can't finish. The points in the paint that do the bulk of bumping up players shooting percentages are pretty much null for McLemore. I'm all for being patient with rookies but they have to at least show something. As of right now he's bordering in the Thomas Robinson category. The only difference is that he's a few years younger so there's still that possibility that he could turn into something but it's looking bleak.

hey, we're not in disagreement over mclemore's faults. i share your skepticism completely, but it's beside the point. if the organization claims that they want to put their full faith in mclemore's development, then they need to do something about it. he can't be an afterthought on offense if the kings expect him to grow and mature as a player, and especially if they expect him to become a long-term contributor, either as a starter or as a back-up...

I just don't see the point in getting our scrap heap players more involved. They were on the scrap heap for a reason. Williams is the best of the rest and he was barely getting on the court in Minnesota. Acy and Gray hardly got any playing time. Evans and Terry are playing as bad as they ever have. Outlaw and Jimmer wouldn't even see the court for most teams and McCallum is a rookie 12th man. Our bench is deep in 10-12th men. Were basically complaining about not getting Mateen Cleaves more involved. Getting these guys involved is not going to translate into wins. Getting these guys out of here and replaced with more talent will translate to wins. There's nothing to develop here. You keep a couple of them because every team needs those guys at the end of the bench and you ship the rest of the guys out and hope you get value in return. At that point we can start worrying about whether the rest of the team is involved or not.

because discipline matters, plain and simple; chemistry matters, plain and simple. again, we're not in disagreement over the quality of this team's "supporting" cast; it's pathetic. however, if you allow isaiah thomas to assert his will over the kings nightly while the losses pile up, it will become increasingly difficult to reign him in, to establish a team identity, to move the kings' culture away from selfish, defense-averse junk ball and towards winning basketball...

i'm not talking about giving the keys over to a buncha scrubs, i'm simply talking about putting a much shorter leash on thomas' napolean complex (and planning to move him out of the starting unit eventually). IT is not at the top of this team's pecking order. he's behind demarcus cousins and rudy gay, but he doesn't seem to acknowledge this fact. he also doesn't seem to care much about the team as a concept. i mean, what good is it for mclemore to develop, what good is it to bring in more talented roleplayers if the kings can't make room for them alongside a shot-hungry "core" of cousins/gay/thomas?

again, discipline matters. chemistry matters. establishing roles and establishing a defensive identity becomes much more difficult when one player is given carte blanche to do whatever he wants with the ball on offense while contributing very little on defense. if it's lebron james, then i'm not as concerned. but it's not lebron james, is it? it's isaiah thomas...