Kings Notes: Fortson, Corliss bang for the buck

[bozzwell]

How about this? Remember when the Sacbee ran an article last season where quoted Larry Bird saying that Peja really needs to work over the summer at developing a low post game, better dribbling to create his own shot, and improve his rebounding? I haven'tseen any evidence that Peja has worked to improve his game in any of those three areas. He seems to be satisfied at reaching a certain plateau, he doesn't seem motivated to reach that next level. People can make up all the excuses they want for Peja, but he definately has the skills and ability to reach the next level, he just has to want to.

Peja doesn't strike me as a player who's crushed by losses and by his own bad play. I don't think it bothers him nearly as much as other players such as Bibby, Jackson, or Webber. His own admission of not doing basketball at home only adds to his laissez faire image.

I was merely adding info to give context to Pedja's flippant remark.

As for Bird suggestions: Pedja is dribbling too much as it is and holding the ball for way to long (when not in catch and shoot opportunity). That is why his drives to the basket, his passes out of double team or his shots off of the dribble are usually late (as in "too late now" - the defense has set and waiting for you). Maybe Bird could teach him, but whoever thought him how to get his shot off or get to the basket off of the dribble did him no favours.

 

[VF21]

There is so much completely and utterly false in your interpretation that I do not know why I bother for the N-th time to point this out:

1. Except for the last summer Pedja's shooting practices are legendary. The soft hands you get born with, the shooting is all _regular_ practice.
2. Pedja winning WC in 2002 was not pinnacle of his career, according to Pedja who was greeted (by his friends and family while back home after Indy 2002) with "how could you miss that open 3?" (against the Lakers). instead of congratulations.
3. The dude is playing NBA basketball in 2005 in part thanks to the fact that he survived _civil_ war and lived nomadic life until he settled in Sacramento, sacraficing everything to be a basketball player (including being adopted in order to be able to play baskteball at all, while his parents were both still alive!).
4. That soft uncommitted player tried to play on a double leg fracture until he noticed and extra joint. He may never be able to toughen up in mental sense in order to be "it" but he is hardly a loafer.

I've got more.

You and I are coming from polar opposites. You are judging him from the inside, so to speak. I am judging him based on what he's SHOWN - not preconceived notions based on his background.

1. Shooting practice at the gym or practice facility is TOTALLY different from doing the extra things at home, like studying game tapes to see what you could do better or how you could stop your opponent. Shooting practice only maintains current skills - it certainly doesn't add new ones.

2. Sorry to disappoint you, but it was reported here that Peja had said more than once that the greatest achievement of his life was winning the title with Vlade. If he didn't mean it, he shouldn't have said it. (Oh wait, that's an old refrain, isn't it?)

3. His road to the NBA is immaterial. We have players in the NBA right now who have survived gang wars, lost their parents, etc. It shouldn't be considered in determining whether or not someone can be expected to improve their game. Didn't he play basketball to support his family? If so, then maybe he can't help but view it as a necessary evil and not something he derives a lot of pride and pleasure from...

4. Yes, the legend of the broken leg. Fine. He was forced to play on a broken leg but did he do it out of choice or because he didn't have the fortitude to stand up for himself and say he was hurt and wasn't going to play?

The time for excuses is over, Bozwell. Peja has been given the benefit of the doubt at every considerable opportunity. And every time he has - in my mind - not done the right thing.

You can preach all you like, but I'm not changing my opinion of him AS AN NBA PLAYER. I've watched the NBA for over 40 years. I have a mindset about what makes a complete player - Peja is lacking. Sorry, but that is not going to change until and unless he changes. And I honestly no longer believe that's likely to happen.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Am I the only one who has a REAL problem with that attitude?

No.

Not at all.

I actually read this earlier this afternoon and didn't respond because I couldn't think of the proper way to express, in writing, my shock upon learning that I quite possibly watch more game tapes at home than Peja Stojakovic does.

It's been six hours and the best I could come up with was:

Fhdsjkafohyauirnafjkdldshuifoawehwjfklnduio?????????????!!

 

[GoGoGadget]

It might not be that much of an X factor. I noticed something the other day when I was going through back newspaper clippings. A couple of years ago, Gavin Maloof could often be spotted courtside during games wearing a #16 jersey. This year, he has worn #10 almost exclusively. I think that may just speak volumes...

...

...

or not.

In every interview I've heard from the Maloofs this season, Mike's been the only guy singled out for praise.

That theory of yours might not be too far off.

 

[AleksandarN]

4. Yes, the legend of the broken leg. Fine. He was forced to play on a broken leg but did he do it out of choice or because he didn't have the fortitude to stand up for himself and say he was hurt and wasn't going to play?

.

I really do not have any real problem with any of the post except this one. Let me get this you are blaming him for choosing to play through pain. At that time he was not aware of the fracture. He played through the pain because he wanted to help the team. This really amazes me. How can you twist this around?
Him playing through his career ending injury probably adds to his caution you see now every time he gets injuried.

 

[bozzwell]

You and I are coming from polar opposites. You are judging him from the inside, so to speak. I am judging him based on what he's SHOWN - not preconceived notions based on his background.

1. Shooting practice at the gym or practice facility is TOTALLY different from doing the extra things at home, like studying game tapes to see what you could do better or how you could stop your opponent. Shooting practice only maintains current skills - it certainly doesn't add new ones.

2. Sorry to disappoint you, but it was reported here that Peja had said more than once that the greatest achievement of his life was winning the title with Vlade. If he didn't mean it, he shouldn't have said it. (Oh wait, that's an old refrain, isn't it?)

3. His road to the NBA is immaterial. We have players in the NBA right now who have survived gang wars, lost their parents, etc. It shouldn't be considered in determining whether or not someone can be expected to improve their game. Didn't he play basketball to support his family? If so, then maybe he can't help but view it as a necessary evil and not something he derives a lot of prideand pleasure from...

4. Yes, the legend of the broken leg. Fine. He was forced to play on a broken leg but did he do it out of choice or because he didn't have the fortitude to stand up for himself and say he was hurt and wasn't going to play?

The time for excuses is over, Bozwell. Peja has been given the benefit of the doubt at every considerable opportunity. And every time he has - in my mind - not done the right thing.

You can preach all you like, but I'm not changing my opinion of him AS AN NBA PLAYER. I've watched the NBA for over 40 years. I have a mindset about what makes a complete player - Peja is lacking. Sorry, but that is not going to change until and unless he changes. And I honestly no longer believe that's likely to happen.

1. He's not at home half of the season (road trips). He could argue that sane domestic life and work/privat life separation helps him be more focused player on the court and better husband/father at home. We're all different. I work from home. That's just me.

2. Well, winning WC IS his highest achievement. That does not preclude him from having NBA ring be his highest achievement if and when he wins one. If he thinks that unique status that will be granted to the first Serbian player to win and earn NBA ring is less then silverware from WC's that is two-a-penny in Serbia and former Yugoslavia then he is clearly living on a different planet (and I don't mean California).

3. Eh? Right. I'm gonna leave that one out from my response. You could not possibly understand. It's his make up. That is what his reality is and was.

4. He wasn't forced. One of the toughest no-nonsense guys in NBA Scott Skiles who was his teammate and coach at the time values him very highly.

So, you don't believe in him and don't rate him as an NBA player - that's fine. But if you're going to use speculate with what little facts we know to support your view, then I will be darned if I don't take it upon myself to speculate otherwise. While I am not saying that he is all that or that he could be "it" if only something-something (the excuse of the day), I feel that when the man's chatacter has been brought into question based on his background (as in becuase of the way basketball rescued him), based on what basketball _might_ represent to him and a very ambigous remark ("I don't do basketball at home") I might as well stand up for him. It just feels right. I have never purposfully made excuses for him and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

Watching basketball for 40 years entitles you to an opinion and a respect for that opinion and your committment. OTOH, as a former player (and a scrub at that) I feel perfectly entitled to be defensive about another player who is under attack for not living up to other people's expectations. You or I did not hype him up to be something that he is clearly not. There is no need for you or I to tear him down or even argue about it.

 

[kennadog]

Thank you Bozzwell...I could not have said it better.

BTW, just because he doesn't do basketball at home. Do any of you have the least idea of what time he gets home? Or how much time he spends away from home "doing basketball"? If you don't, I can't see how you can criticize his comment. Ask Bibby how he feels about a father that made basketball more important than his family. And basketball is clearly not more important than family to Bibby either. Geez.

Peja may not ever be the guy who carries a team. That hardly makes him a worthless player. Find me any SF or swing man in the league at similar salary that is "the" player for their team? (And please don't say Artest...the Pacers seem to be doing fine without him and I wouldn't trade Erik Daniels for that nut job.) If anyone who fails to live up to the exectations of others is a complete loser, then guess what every living person is?

 

[VF21]

I really do not have any real problem with any of the post except this one. Let me get this you are blaming him for choosing to play through pain. At that time he was not aware of the fracture. He played through the pain because he wanted to help the team. This really amazes me. How can you twist this around?
Him playing through his career ending injury probably adds to his caution you see now every time he gets injuried.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding about that part...

I was terribly unclear and it sounds, in retrospect, unfair...and I try extremely hard to be fair.

What I was referring to was what I took as an implied comment that Peja chose to be the brave little soldier and play on through the pain for the good of the team. I thought it was more likely that he was put in a position where he had no choice and, Peja being Peja, he didn't have the confidence in himself OR his value, to stand up and speak out. If I've erred in the assumption that he wasn't the master of his fate at that time, then please accept my heartfelt apologies.

 

[VF21]

1. He's not at home half of the season (road trips). He could argue that sane domestic life and work/privat life separation helps him be more focused player on the court and better husband/father at home. We're all different. I work from home. That's just me.

2. Well, winning WC IS his highest achievement. That does not preclude him from having NBA ring be his highest achievement if and when he wins one. If he thinks that unique status that will be granted to the first Serbian player to win and earn NBA ring is less then silverware from WC's that is two-a-penny in Serbia and former Yugoslavia then he is clearly living on a different planet (and I don't mean California).

3. Eh? Right. I'm gonna leave that one out from my response. You could not possibly understand. It's his make up. That is what his reality is and was.

4. He wasn't forced. One of the toughest no-nonsense guys in NBA Scott Skiles who was his teammate and coach at the time values him very highly.

Nice character assasination even if you used lots of maybes and qualifications. So, you don't believe in him and don't rate him as an NBA player - that's fine. But if you're going to use inuendo and your own interpretation of what little facts we know to support your view, then I will be darned if I don't take it upon myself to speculate otherwise. While I am not saying that he is all that or that he could be "it" if only something-something (the excuse of the day), I feel that when the man's chatacter has been brought into question based on his background (as in becuase of the way basketball rescued him), based on what basketball _might_ represent to him and a very ambigous remark ("I don't do basketball at home") I might as well stand up for him. It just feels right. I have never purposfully made excuses for him and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

Watching basketball for 40 years entitles you to an opinion and a respect for that opinion and your committment. OTOH, as a former player (and a scrub at that) I feel perfectly entitled to be defensive about another player who is under attack for not living up to other people's expectations. You or I did not hype him up to be something that he is clearly not. There is no need for you or I to tear him down or even argue about it.

I respect you and your right to yhour opinion so I am simply going to agree to disagree. You have your opinions and standards by which you measure NBA players and I have mine. In this case, at least, we are so diametrically opposed that I hesitate to comment any further.

I do object strenuously to you attempting to make it personal by accusing me of character assassination. I am speaking my honest opinions and am, whenever possible, giving the reasons behind those opinions. I resent being accused of character assassination. Good evening to you, sir. I will not be responding to further comments from you about this as I feel you have done me a great disservice.

 

[AleksandarN]

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding about that part...

I was terribly unclear and it sounds, in retrospect, unfair...and I try extremely hard to be fair.

What I was referring to was what I took as an implied comment that Peja chose to be the brave little soldier and play on through the pain for the good of the team. I thought it was more likely that he was put in a position where he had no choice and, Peja being Peja, he didn't have the confidence in himself OR his value, to stand up and speak out. If I've erred in the assumption that he wasn't the master of his fate at that time, then please accept my heartfelt apologies.

Thank you for using that terminology. Somehow I do not think your apologies are that heartfelt.

 

[VF21]

Thank you Bozzwell...I could not have said it better.

BTW, just because he doesn't do basketball at home. Do any of you have the least idea of what time he gets home? Or how much time he spends away from home "doing basketball"? If you don't, I can't see how you can criticize his comment. Ask Bibby how he feels about a father that made basketball more important than his family. And basketball is clearly not more important than family to Bibby either. Geez.

Peja may not ever be the guy who carries a team. That hardly makes him a worthless player. Find me any SF or swing man in the league at similar salary that is "the" player for their team? (And please don't say Artest...the Pacers seem to be doing fine without him and I wouldn't trade Erik Daniels for that nut job.) If anyone who fails to live up to the exectations of others is a complete loser, then guess what every living person is?

WTF? I can't criticize something Peja said but it was perfectly okay with everyone to totally dissect every single word that either came out of WEbber's mouth OR was left out and read between the lines? Give me a bleeping break.

For the record? Bibby does study game tapes at home. It's been commented on before. He also makes time for his CHILDREN - not just one.

I never said Peja was worthless. Find you any SF or swingman at similar salary? So it IS all about the money? If he was paid more, he'd do better?

The philosophical argument of "anyone who fails to live up to the expectations of others is a complete loser" is NOT anything I said or implied. It's not about living up to expectations as far as a person's life worth is concerned. It's about meeting the necessary requirements of his job. As a starting small forward for the Sacramento Kings, we need certain things from whomever fills the position. It is becoming increasingly apparent that Peja is NOT meeting all the requirements generally associated with the position. Does that make him worthless? Your word, not mine. I simply said I was losing faith in his ability to meet the job requirements. If I'm mistaken, I'm certainly in good company. Look around. Even his staunchest media supporters are beginning to realize what some of us have feared all along...

THE EMPEROR IS NOT WEARING ANY CLOTHES!

 

[Venom]

Thank you Bozzwell...I could not have said it better.

BTW, just because he doesn't do basketball at home. Do any of you have the least idea of what time he gets home? Or how much time he spends away from home "doing basketball"? If you don't, I can't see how you can criticize his comment. Ask Bibby how he feels about a father that made basketball more important than his family. And basketball is clearly not more important than family to Bibby either. Geez.

Peja may not ever be the guy who carries a team. That hardly makes him a worthless player. Find me any SF or swing man in the league at similar salary that is "the" player for their team? (And please don't say Artest...the Pacers seem to be doing fine without him and I wouldn't trade Erik Daniels for that nut job.) If anyone who fails to live up to the exectations of others is a complete loser, then guess what every living person is?

Bibby probably watches more tape than anyone on the team. The guy has lived basketball since he was kid. I saw a TV report on him at some point during the season, maybe that show with Rashad and Summer Sanders, and it was mostly about his family (Team Dime) and intensity for the game. Lots of clips of him breaking down film.

No one is saying that Peja is worthless, just that he is not dedicated to his profession. You know, if the guy doesn't love the game he should quit, seriously. There is no sense in being away from Greece for 7-8 months of the year and go through a grueling NBA schedule if you don't love it. There's no sense to do any profession if you don't love it. But most importantly, don't disrespect the game. I think it was Bozz that brought up how Peja survived civil war. Well, how many of his countrymen who didn't survive would have given anything to have one shot, just one, at the NBA? I'm sorry to get philisophical, but this attitude of indifference really gets me riled up. Anything you are doing in life you should do to the best of your abilities. If Peja doesn't have fun doing it, after Tuesday night he should just hang them up. No one was angry at Ricky Williams for retiring, they were angry about the timing. People would understand.

 

[LPKingsFan]

THE EMPEROR IS NOT WEARING ANY CLOTHES!

David Stern? Naked? Ewww...

 

[bozzwell]

I respect you and your right to yhour opinion so I am simply going to agree to disagree. You have your opinions and standards by which you measure NBA players and I have mine. In this case, at least, we are so diametrically opposed that I hesitate to comment any further.

I do object strenuously to you attempting to make it personal by accusing me of character assassination. I am speaking my honest opinions and am, whenever possible, giving the reasons behind those opinions. I resent being accused of character assassination. Good evening to you, sir. I will not be responding to further comments from you about this as I feel you have done me a great disservice.

I would like to appologise to you and I removed the offending part. My reaction was instinctive, temperamental and I see now that it was malicious.

I did not mean to show you up or to question your credibilty but something slipped through the self-censoring filters. I hope you will see how (for better or worse) some things will trigger off less then gentlemanly conduct on my part and I promise to you and the whole forum that I will try to keep that part off of this board or at least utilise PM.

(I know that PM might have been more apropriate for this, but since I cannot undo the damage now, I chose to post here).

 

[BigWaxer]

A couple comments I wanted to comment on in this thread but I couldn’t possibly quote them all. Sorry Venom yours was the last and easiest one to get to

I don't agree that it’s a question of dedication. Not sure how to go further or who to compare him with. Or how to give any support for not agreeing with you (just being honest). I am not there during practice or after so someone may be able to comment on Pejas work ethics. I don’t think it’s fair to say he is not dedicated unless you see him leave first in practice or laugh after a loss that kind of stuff and maybe he does. I may have took your post wrong so I apologize in advance if I did.



I also think someone earlier it may have been Brick page 2 or 3 said Peja hasn't improved. Well I disagree and would say in better words he hasn’t met ours or the team’s expectations in improvements. He has made plenty of improvements especially in individual D, this year he kind of took a step back in shooting. He has improved just not at the pace we all expected him to. However I wouldn’t say he hasn’t improved.

I am a pro peja guy I just think as Brick said he has to be used right. #3 option. Put 2 stars in front of him and I think Bibby can be the #2 star.

 

[GoGoGadget]

BTW, just because he doesn't do basketball at home. Do any of you have the least idea of what time he gets home? Or how much time he spends away from home "doing basketball"? If you don't, I can't see how you can criticize his comment. Ask Bibby how he feels about a father that made basketball more important than his family. And basketball is clearly not more important than family to Bibby either. Geez.

Actually, everything that I've ever read about, or seen in Mike Bibby would indicate that his priority is being a good father WHILE remaining dedicated to basketball. All indications would lead a person to believe that (outside of playing video games, eating at Chili's and getting tattoos) there's not a whole heck of a lot that Mike does that doesn't involve basketball.

I remember last year during the playoffs -- Dallas series, I think -- there was a shot of Mike's locker during the broadcast. In his locker was a stack of video tapes, each with one or two point guards' names on the label in his handwriting, that he kept handy. Nash's tape, they commented, was at home in the VCR.

Also, I don't think that anyone here is suggesting that Peja become so focused on basketball that he shirk the responsibilities of being a father.

His statement -- what was printed in the newspaper, I should say -- was not particularly shrowded in mystery. He "doesn't do" basketball at home. Apparently his effort is good enough for several, and it leaves something to be desired from others. Hard to argue people out of their standards. I, personally, feel better about backing the guy who spends that extra time working on the mental part of the game. No amount of broken legs or harsh childhoods is going to change that.

 

[Team Dime]

Bibby probably watches more tape than anyone on the team. The guy has lived basketball since he was kid. I saw a TV report on him at some point during the season, maybe that show with Rashad and Summer Sanders, and it was mostly about his family (Team Dime) and intensity for the game. Lots of clips of him breaking down film.

No one is saying that Peja is worthless, just that he is not dedicated to his profession. You know, if the guy doesn't love the game he should quit, seriously. There is no sense in being away from Greece for 7-8 months of the year and go through a grueling NBA schedule if you don't love it. There's no sense to do any profession if you don't love it. But most importantly, don't disrespect the game. I think it was Bozz that brought up how Peja survived civil war. Well, how many of his countrymen who didn't survive would have given anything to have one shot, just one, at the NBA? I'm sorry to get philisophical, but this attitude of indifference really gets me riled up. Anything you are doing in life you should do to the best of your abilities. If Peja doesn't have fun doing it, after Tuesday night he should just hang them up. No one was angry at Ricky Williams for retiring, they were angry about the timing. People would understand.

Very well said. Some people like Kennadog, Bozz, and many of the Serbs who frequent this board have to stop making excuses for Peja. His best asset is his shooting, not his mediocre (he can't rebound to save his life) defense. I've been dumbfounded to see Peja been a no-show every year in the playoffs. Some players define their legacies in the playoffs with great performances. Peja continues to do so with bad performances. Last night was a great example of his frustrating potential combined with his lack of desire. 21 pts in the 1st half, 6 in the 3rd, 0 in the 4th. Even if you're a scrub, if the coach puts you in for the 4th, you'd better do something productive; unless of course your name is Peja. Even in game 1 when he was also the Kings leading scorer, he only took 3 shots in the 4th. The guy simply can't get it done when it counts. He's a #3 option at best; he could be more but he simply doesn't want to be. He lacks the willpower to improve his game. He knows how to shoot and in the playoffs even that isn't reliable.

To sum it up; Peja doesn't do basketball at home.

 

[bozzwell]

Bibby probably watches more tape than anyone on the team. The guy has lived basketball since he was kid. I saw a TV report on him at some point during the season, maybe that show with Rashad and Summer Sanders, and it was mostly about his family (Team Dime) and intensity for the game. Lots of clips of him breaking down film.

No one is saying that Peja is worthless, just that he is not dedicated to his profession. You know, if the guy doesn't love the game he should quit, seriously. There is no sense in being away from Greece for 7-8 months of the year and go through a grueling NBA schedule if you don't love it. There's no sense to do any profession if you don't love it. But most importantly, don't disrespect the game. I think it was Bozz that brought up how Peja survived civil war. Well, how many of his countrymen who didn't survive would have given anything to have one shot, just one, at the NBA? I'm sorry to get philisophical, but this attitude of indifference really gets me riled up. Anything you are doing in life you should do to the best of your abilities. If Peja doesn't have fun doing it, after Tuesday night he should just hang them up. No one was angry at Ricky Williams for retiring, they were angry about the timing. People would understand.

Well, the way you put it makes it perfectly sensible: IF he is not enjoying himself he should do something else (or do nothing, seeing that he is probably set for life). But that is a big IF.

There was a time in my playing days (usually after the umpteenth cut) that I would give anything for just a little part of talent that someone like Pedja has. Then I figured out that while I am not Pedja at basketball there are things that I am as good as Pedja is in basketball. If I were completley rational about it, I would conclude that injuries and cuts from basketball led me onto a path that was my true path and that it all resulted in a great life. Pedja has basketball, whether he sees it or not. Maybe he should go Ricky for a year just to see how much he would miss it. But at this point, you are just making a gross assumption about dude's inner workings based on what you are projecting at him. He is still very productive in his own way, just not the answer to the question that we're asking here (how do we win NBA championship?). And I don't like it anymore (or less) then I liked "looser intangibles" label that was so liberally applied to Webber at one time. Webber busted his knee and that is it, there is no looser intangibles. Pedja does not have abilities to take over the games. Maybe he is doing us all a great favour by stepping asside from the spotlight. We now know exactly what to expect and we can all make adjustments (fans and Kings management alike).

But there is no need to make such a big deal out of it (statement and all).

 

[Venom]

A couple comments I wanted to comment on in this thread but I couldn’t possibly quote them all. Sorry Venom yours was the last and easiest one to get to

I don't agree that it’s a question of dedication. Not sure how to go further or who to compare him with. Or how to give any support for not agreeing with you (just being honest). I am not there during practice or after so someone may be able to comment on Pejas work ethics. I don’t think it’s fair to say he is not dedicated unless you see him leave first in practice or laugh after a loss that kind of stuff and maybe he does. I may have took your post wrong so I apologize in advance if I did.



I also think someone earlier it may have been Brick page 2 or 3 said Peja hasn't improved. Well I disagree and would say in better words he hasn’t met ours or the team’s expectations in improvements. He has made plenty of improvements especially in individual D, this year he kind of took a step back in shooting. He has improved just not at the pace we all expected him to. However I wouldn’t say he hasn’t improved.

I am a pro peja guy I just think as Brick said he has to be used right. #3 option. Put 2 stars in front of him and I think Bibby can be the #2 star.

When people say Peja has not improved they mean he has not added weapons to his game. He's refined his shooting, maybe gotten a little more dedicated on D, got a little better at dribbling right, but that's about it. He has not added a post game, not even a fade-away jumper. He has not added a crossover. He has not hit the weight room, which would allow him to develop a post game/rebound/defend better. In short, he has worked exclusively on the things that were already his strengths when he came into the league. The best coach I ever had used to tell me every day that the good players, the dedicated players, work on their weaknesses, and make them strengths. Peja does not do that. He does not challenge himself. I completely agree, he would be a great #3, as were other shooters like Steve Kerr/Dan Majerle/Allan Houston/Robert Horry, but in order for us to get a #1 we are going to have to ship Peja.

 

[bozzwell]

Very well said. Some people like Kennadog, Bozz, and many of the Serbs who frequent this board have to stop making excuses for Peja. His best asset is his shooting, not his mediocre (he can't rebound to save his life) defense. I've been dumbfounded to see Peja been a no-show every year in the playoffs. Some players define their legacies in the playoffs with great performances. Peja continues to do so with bad performances. Last night was a great example of his frustrating potential combined with his lack of desire. 21 pts in the 1st half, 6 in the 3rd, 0 in the 4th. Even if you're a scrub, if the coach puts you in for the 4th, you'd better do something productive; unless of course your name is Peja. Even in game 1 when he was also the Kings leading scorer, he only took 3 shots in the 4th. The guy simply can't get it done when it counts. He's a #3 option at best; he could be more but he simply doesn't want to be. He lacks the willpower to improve his game. He knows how to shoot and in the playoffs even that isn't reliable.

To sum it up; Peja doesn't do basketball at home.

You will really have to back it up. How am I making excuses for Pedja's on the court performances? Do I have to be as dismissive as you are to prove my mettle here?

And do I really have to "stop"? Maybe if it bother's you that much I should start making up excuses for Pedja. Or should I pick someone else? How about Cat? He's been in the dog house lately.

 

[Team Dime]

Well, the way you put it makes it perfectly sensible: IF he is not enjoying himself he should do something else (or do nothing, seeing that he is probably set for life). But that is a big IF.

There was a time in my playing days (usually after the umpteenth cut) that I would give anything for just a little part of talent that someone like Pedja has. Then I figured out that while I am not Pedja at basketball there are things that I am as good as Pedja is in basketball. If I were completley rational about it, I would conclude that injuries and cuts from basketball led me onto a path that was my true path and that it all resulted in a great life. Pedja has basketball, whether he sees it or not. Maybe he should go Ricky for a year just to see how much he would miss it. But at this point, you are just making a gross assumption about dude's inner workings based on what you are projecting at him. He is still very productive in his own way, just not the answer to the question that we're asking here (how do we win NBA championship?). And I don't like it anymore (or less) then I liked "looser intangibles" label that was so liberally applied to Webber at one time. Webber busted his knee and that is it, there is no looser intangibles. Pedja does not have abilities to take over the games. Maybe he is doing us all a great favour by stepping asside from the spotlight. We now know exactly what to expect and we can all make adjustments (fans and Kings management alike).

But there is no need to make such a big deal out of it (statement and all).

He admitted he's not committed to making himself better. Other players like Bibby spend the extra time at home studying tape to make themselves better. Peja does not.

It's as simple as that. How else can you explain a man of his incredible talent being a playoff no show year after year and pulling 21pts in the 1st, 6 in the 3rd, 0 in the 4th?

 

[BigWaxer]

When people say Peja has not improved they mean he has not added weapons to his game. He's refined his shooting, maybe gotten a little more dedicated on D, got a little better at dribbling right, but that's about it. He has not added a post game, not even a fade-away jumper. He has not added a crossover. He has not hit the weight room, which would allow him to develop a post game/rebound/defend better. In short, he has worked exclusively on the things that were already his strengths when he came into the league. The best coach I ever had used to tell me every day that the good players, the dedicated players, work on their weaknesses, and make them strengths. Peja does not do that. He does not challenge himself. I completely agree, he would be a great #3, so was Steve Kerr/Dan Majerle/Allan Houston, but in order for us to get a #1 we are going to have to ship Peja.

Good post Venom... I can agree with that and I wasn't sure if I misunderstood what you and Brick were saying. I agree 10000% with the way you spelled it out and I also agree its doubtful we get a superstar without Peja in the trade mix. If we can get a superstar and leave him as our #3 option then I think we are in better shape. But like you I think for us to get an elite player Peja will have to be part of the trade.

 

[VF21]

I want to step out of the role of VF21 the fan for a moment and make a general comment about this thread:

You people rock! I know how deep the emotions run for some of you and it has been truly informational for me to read this thread. I applaud each and every one of you for presenting your arguments without resorting to tactics common to other message boards...

------------------------------------------------

Back as VF21 the fan:

Bozzwell, I certainly accept your apology. And I hope you'll accept mine for any buttons I may have pushed inadvertantly because of my ignorance about some things Serbian. We're all learning about each other - and I give thanks every day for the international knowledge I've learned from you and others here.

It's all good.

...

GO KINGS!!!!!

 

[bozzwell]

He admitted he's not committed to making himself better. Other players like Bibby spend the extra time at home studying tape to make themselves better. Peja does not.

It's as simple as that. Stop trying to defend a guy who really doesn't care all that much to begin with. How else can you explain a man of his incredible talent being a playoff no show year after year and pulling 21pts in the 1st, 6 in the 3rd, 0 in the 4th?

Noone was defending his on the court performance. I just don't buy it that "he doesn't care". If he didn't care about basketball and his NBA career why did he:
1. Sue his Greek team (PAOK) in order to get release from his contract so he can join Sacramento.
2. Instead of taking guaranteed money ($4mil a year) from Italian team that would make him richer without risking anything (he could have always been a bust in NBA or simply incapable after the second leg break), why did he come to the NBA for less money? Perhaps because it is the pinnacle of players career to make it at "the Show".
3. Demand to be traded last summer when he was peeved with something or somebody while he was clearly wanted by the Kings and money was always there.

Those are not the actions (right or wrong) of a person who does not care or for whome basketball is a simple means to an end (and what end? with just this years salary he could be larging it in Greece and Serbia for the rest of his life).

 

[VF21]

Team Dime and Bozzwell -

PLEASE, for the sake of this thread, take the testosterone down a notch. You are pushing each other's buttons and heading towards a permanent thread closure, which I do NOT want to have to do.

You can both make your arguments without making it personal. I've edited the last post of each of you. Please feel free to continue your discussion but keep it civil and respectful.

Thank you.

VF21 THE MODERATOR

 

[bozzwell]

Team Dime and Bozzwell -

PLEASE, for the sake of this thread, take the testosterone down a notch. You are pushing each other's buttons and heading towards a permanent thread closure, which I do NOT want to have to do.

You can both make your arguments without making it personal. I've edited the last post of each of you. Please feel free to continue your discussion but keep it civil and respectful.

Thank you.

VF21 THE MODERATOR

Understood.

 

[bozzwell]

When people say Peja has not improved they mean he has not added weapons to his game. He's refined his shooting, maybe gotten a little more dedicated on D, got a little better at dribbling right, but that's about it. He has not added a post game, not even a fade-away jumper. He has not added a crossover. He has not hit the weight room, which would allow him to develop a post game/rebound/defend better. In short, he has worked exclusively on the things that were already his strengths when he came into the league. The best coach I ever had used to tell me every day that the good players, the dedicated players, work on their weaknesses, and make them strengths. Peja does not do that. He does not challenge himself. I completely agree, he would be a great #3, as were other shooters like Steve Kerr/Dan Majerle/Allan Houston/Robert Horry, but in order for us to get a #1 we are going to have to ship Peja.

That's more like it. If we're to criticise his effort and committment one clear area for improvement is addressing the issues you listed. Unless he is trying and failing to get traction or he is reluctant to change his game, you might be able to build the case that he is dogging it in this respect. Actually, at this point if I was his coach I would ask him to do certain things in 4th quarter whether he is ready for it or not. It's not like we could do any worse last night.

 

[treewoman]

Hmm, here's my two cents...based on just human nature observation and being a fan and having no where near the (basketball) knowldege any of you demonstrate.

Pedja doesn't strike me as happy. And for me it is as simple as that. Is it basketball? Pressures at home? Serbia? I don't know and really it is none of my business. He strikes me as an emotional person - the kind who can not set aside his emotions and refocus 100% on the task at hand. Some people are like that. I suspect that if he had his emotions more in check his play would be phenomeonal. Not to sound new-wavy but he seems like he needs to have some personal growth before he can expand to the stature we'd all like to see him in. And he's young... I think we should give him a little time to do that.


Additionally I think that he was crushed when his friend Vlade left. I heard he didn't get along w/Webber. When Webber left I heard he was going to be "the Leader" and then Mike stepped up to that role. Has all this affected his play? My guess is yes. Add in his personal issues - and I gotta tell you I feel for the guy.

ALL of them have potential (or they wouldn't be in the NBA) to be truly outstanding... it's all about who can or can not step up to the plate. I think for all he has given the Kings I am certainly willing to see Pedja stay at least one more year.

 

[VF21]

You bring up valid points, treewoman, and ones I've actually thought of.

I remarked to Kingsgurl that I was very happy for Peja when Vlade came to town. He was smiling and it was a genuine smile. He was really very happy and it showed.

Is it possible that Petrie knows this and can bring Vlade back into the fold in a minor capacity just to get his favorite small forward back on the right track? It would certainly be worth considering, IMHO.

Peja has one of the most unorthodox yet beautiful rainbow three shots I've ever seen in the game. Seeing him launch them from nearly midcourt is a thing of beauty and something I'll never forget. I would LOVE to see him get that back...

 

[Bricklayer]

You bring up valid points, treewoman, and ones I've actually thought of.

I remarked to Kingsgurl that I was very happy for Peja when Vlade came to town. He was smiling and it was a genuine smile. He was really very happy and it showed.

Is it possible that Petrie knows this and can bring Vlade back into the fold in a minor capacity just to get his favorite small forward back on the right track? It would certainly be worth considering, IMHO.

Peja has one of the most unorthodox yet beautiful rainbow three shots I've ever seen in the game. Seeing him launch them from nearly midcourt is a thing of beauty and something I'll never forget. I would LOVE to see him get that back...

Not worth it. If Peja really is so weak willed and unprofessional that he cannot excel without a designated babysitter to hold his hand, then I want no part of him and wouldn't be caught dead wearing his jersey. I mean, how humiliating. This isn't pee wee. If the guy does not have it inside himself, then sorry, bye bye.

I was actually one of the people who first (so far as I know) forwarded the "Vlade theory". That Vlade was really the heart of the automaton. But it was in no way shape or form a complimentary theory. It was a worst case you have to be kidding me scenario.

Still not sure on that front however. Thankfully. I absolutely think Peja has suffered mightily from the loss of our great passers ON the court. But the implication that he is still operating at some sort of grade school level of maturity and toughness and cannot function without a nursemaid is just a terribly terribly insulting one to him. Just weak. Fortunately or unfortunately he remains as inscutable as ever.