Kings May Still Deal Bibby
- Thread starter Miles and Miles
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So your take on it is that the front office has filled our roster with such utter garbage that the damage cannot possibly be repaired?
I see a few possible takes on our roster, but the only way you can say anything positive about the front office is to go with the "Helpless Geoff" scenario: portray the Maloofs as being responsible for all decisions, or at least all bad decisions, leaving GP with no alternatives but resignation, or going on as a powerless figurehead.
While this version of reality has some plausible aspects, it also makes no sense at all in other ways. Nobody has ever claimed that the Maloofs were behind the acquisition of Mo Taylor, the overly large contracts given to Salmons and Moore, a questionable draft pick or two, the failure to hire Van Gundy when the opportunity was there, etc. They may have been behind the Webber trade, were very likely behind the Peja trade, and were almost certainly responsible for letting Adelman go, but there's no sign of their involvement in other harmful actions, or harmful inactions.
So unless one jumps to the conclusion, based on no evidence, that the Maloofs are micromanaging EVERY decision, the most charitable possible view of the front office is lackluster at best.
I see a few possible takes on our roster, but the only way you can say anything positive about the front office is to go with the "Helpless Geoff" scenario: portray the Maloofs as being responsible for all decisions, or at least all bad decisions, leaving GP with no alternatives but resignation, or going on as a powerless figurehead.
While this version of reality has some plausible aspects, it also makes no sense at all in other ways. Nobody has ever claimed that the Maloofs were behind the acquisition of Mo Taylor, the overly large contracts given to Salmons and Moore, a questionable draft pick or two, the failure to hire Van Gundy when the opportunity was there, etc. They may have been behind the Webber trade, were very likely behind the Peja trade, and were almost certainly responsible for letting Adelman go, but there's no sign of their involvement in other harmful actions, or harmful inactions.
So unless one jumps to the conclusion, based on no evidence, that the Maloofs are micromanaging EVERY decision, the most charitable possible view of the front office is lackluster at best.
To be fair..the Kenny deal is apart of the C-Webb dump. Kenny has underperformed dramtically the past two seasons. I don't think anyone could see him becoming such a pitiful offensive player like he's become. If he played anywhere CLOSE to that first half a season when we acquired him...then the deal is reasonable.
As for Brad/Bibby's contracts...those were the results of C-Webb's injury. Teams have a small window to win NOW and Petrie did what was necessary to win NOW. Noone could foresee Webber going down like he did. If we still had the pre-injury C-Webb on the team, we're still in elite class NOW and over the past 2-3 years as well. The contracts of Brad/Bibby are none factors really. We wouldn't have the underperforming Kenny F. Thomas on the roster either. Petrie's ALWAYS had the 09/10 season as the pivotal season to lock and reload with the way he's structured contracts back then.
The Kings are where they are, mediocrity, because of the C-Webb injury. Not because Petrie is an inept GM. ANY team who loses their SUPERSTAR player falls into the natural cycle. The lakers did with Shaq. The Rockets did Olajuwon. The Jazz did it with Malone/Stockton. The Spurs will inevitably do it when they lose Duncan.
If C-Webb stayed Healthy we're looking at a 2-3 year rebuild TOPS, instead of the 4-6 year rebuild that we're currently experiencing.
To blame this on Geoff is foolish. He was doing what ANY team modern sports does. Go for the jugular when it's exposed. Unfortunately, we just missed and Webb;s injury made the entire roster vulnerable.
So here we are now in the current state. Give him 2-3 years and we'll undoubtedly be back in the upward swing of things in the league. I guarantee it.
Well Webber's injury isn't Petrie's fault...okay, but I hope his master plan wasnt waiting around til 2009-10 to start to remake the team (or waiting til Garnett was traded to the east so he could BEGIN to make his moves). Of course all signs seem to point to this. I wasn't overjoyed when Webber was traded, but i did think the team was in for some major changes. I wasn't expecting us to hold on to everyone else and watch as the ship sank without its captain.
To NOT blame this is on Geoff is what's foolish, Nay, practically dishonest. Well, the team is a shambles, but hey, GM couldn't have anything to do with that. He's only the, um, GM after all. 
P.S. As an aside, the Bibby deal had nothing to do with the Webb injury -- he signed that the offseason BEFORE Webb got hurt (after the 01-02 season). Brad's deal...maybe. Webb had gotten hurt just earlier that offseason. But it was just as much a move to replace the rapidly fading Vlade in the long term as to temporarily step in for Webb. (As an aside, while there was certainly a considerable amount of tittering about the $$ figures of those contracts when they were signed, and they are certainly biting us in the butt now, I do not really think at the time they were signed they were that unreasonable given where we were at that point. The failures have been the poor judgment, planning, denial and lack of adaptability since that time.)
P.S. As an aside, the Bibby deal had nothing to do with the Webb injury -- he signed that the offseason BEFORE Webb got hurt (after the 01-02 season). Brad's deal...maybe. Webb had gotten hurt just earlier that offseason. But it was just as much a move to replace the rapidly fading Vlade in the long term as to temporarily step in for Webb. (As an aside, while there was certainly a considerable amount of tittering about the $$ figures of those contracts when they were signed, and they are certainly biting us in the butt now, I do not really think at the time they were signed they were that unreasonable given where we were at that point. The failures have been the poor judgment, planning, denial and lack of adaptability since that time.)
Yes...I am pinning my hopes that we acquire the PG of the future in college. I'm also pinning my hopes on Petrie being able to deal Bibby for young talent / draft picks and we also get rid of a contract like KT. There are 5 or 6 potential PG's in the draft that I wouldn't mind drafting if given the chance. I really don't want to see us get a retread PG and sign him to a bloated FA contract. If we can get a primetime PG then great, but I'm not banking on that.
And by the way, although Haslem is not the PF of our dreams, he would have trade value to some team if we didn't want him. Most if not all of our vets are not going to help us win a championship because that is too far down the road. The quicker we start the rebuilding process (getting rid of the vets and stinking for a year or 2), then the better.
Only problem is we have to much talent to be that stinking team. Unless we get rid of Bibby, Martin and Artest we are not going to stink enough to get the PG so don't pin hopes on the draft. Look at how aweful we were last year with coaching, injuries to Bibby and Miller and Artest. We also lost 16 of our last 20 games which indicates pretty much a tank job. Now we have new coach Martin still growing Garcia doing the same Bibby, Miller and Artest healthy and actually some size and skill in the frontcourt for the first time in 2 1/2 years. Not only will we not get one of the PGs you like but, we will probably be on the bubble or better for a playoff position.
To NOT blame this is on Geoff is what's foolish, Nay, practically dishonest. Well, the team is a shambles, but hey, GM couldn't have anything to do with that. He's only the, um, GM after all.
P.S. As an aside, the Bibby deal had nothing to do with the Webb injury -- he signed that the offseason BEFORE Webb got hurt (after the 01-02 season). Brad's deal...maybe. Webb had gotten hurt just earlier that offseason. But it was just as much a move to replace the rapidly fading Vlade in the long term as to temporarily step in for Webb. (As an aside, while there was certainly a considerable amount of tittering about the $$ figures of those contracts when they were signed, and they are certainly biting us in the butt now, I do not really think at the time they were signed they were that unreasonable given where we were at that point. The failures have been the poor judgment, planning, denial and lack of adaptability since that time.)
P.S. As an aside, the Bibby deal had nothing to do with the Webb injury -- he signed that the offseason BEFORE Webb got hurt (after the 01-02 season). Brad's deal...maybe. Webb had gotten hurt just earlier that offseason. But it was just as much a move to replace the rapidly fading Vlade in the long term as to temporarily step in for Webb. (As an aside, while there was certainly a considerable amount of tittering about the $$ figures of those contracts when they were signed, and they are certainly biting us in the butt now, I do not really think at the time they were signed they were that unreasonable given where we were at that point. The failures have been the poor judgment, planning, denial and lack of adaptability since that time.)
If these things happen:
Bibby has a great year, I don't think he has the right guys around him for this.
B Miller rebounds to all-star type player, he could but I highly doubt it.
Our defense improves greatly.... it can't as long as Bibby and Miller get 36 minutes per game.
Garcia and Douby and Hawes and maybe a Moore and J Williams all exceed expectations or play at a very high level in relation to their roles. Well, maybe. I see these guys as keys to a winning season or not
Other teams have injuries. Portland has improved greatly and I think Memphis will be quite a bit better. My point is that we may be one of the least talented teams in the Western Conference.
If we got the 10th pick again, we would get a good PG. Look at where Acie Law and Javaris Crittindon went in the draft. Now I'm not saying they are Chris Paul but those are 2 young PG's that I wouldn't mind having.
Bibby has a great year, I don't think he has the right guys around him for this.
B Miller rebounds to all-star type player, he could but I highly doubt it.
Our defense improves greatly.... it can't as long as Bibby and Miller get 36 minutes per game.
Garcia and Douby and Hawes and maybe a Moore and J Williams all exceed expectations or play at a very high level in relation to their roles. Well, maybe. I see these guys as keys to a winning season or not
Other teams have injuries. Portland has improved greatly and I think Memphis will be quite a bit better. My point is that we may be one of the least talented teams in the Western Conference.
If we got the 10th pick again, we would get a good PG. Look at where Acie Law and Javaris Crittindon went in the draft. Now I'm not saying they are Chris Paul but those are 2 young PG's that I wouldn't mind having.
Miller doesn't have to be an all-star. Artest and Martin are good enough that not even Bibby has to be a 25ppg scorer. You mentioned Moore and Williams exceeding their roles. They exceed their roles the moment we signed them because before the arrival of either we had NOBODY in that role. I am no expecting Hawes to do much. If he has any type of numbers it will be a bonus. Garicia, Douby, and Williams aren't going to get worse only better from this point and the coaching can't get worse.
Portland has one more player in Oden then they had last year. Oden this year isn't going to make that big of a difference. In fact teams that will finish behind us are
Seattle
Minnesota
Portland
LA Clippers
Memphis
then we will be on the same level as
Golden State
New Orleans
LA Lakers
then the upper class
San Antonio
Houston
Denver
Pheonix
Dallas
Utah
So yes we will be on the bubble again
Portland has one more player in Oden then they had last year. Oden this year isn't going to make that big of a difference. In fact teams that will finish behind us are
Seattle
Minnesota
Portland
LA Clippers
Memphis
then we will be on the same level as
Golden State
New Orleans
LA Lakers
then the upper class
San Antonio
Houston
Denver
Pheonix
Dallas
Utah
So yes we will be on the bubble again
To me we are at the lower levels of the west conf then any thing else, we have not then anything to improve. If Mem and New Orleans just stay healthy they seem like teams that have improved more then kings just do to fact they are young.
I really don't understand how anyone could thing the kings could even be a bubble team in the west. For this to happen Bibby, Artest, and Martin need to play near an all star level, which i doubt espeaically from Bibby who has just been going down hill.
We need some kind of Defense and Rebounding from our Bigs which i really doubt will happen too. My only hope for this is Williams because i have no more confidence for our other bigs.
All and All I think the kings will be a very bad team next year this is how i see it stacking up in west with the current rosters.
Mavs
Suns
Spurs
Rockets
Jazz
Nuggets
Hornets
Grizz
Lakers
GS
kings
Clippers
Minn
Portland
Seatle
I really don't understand how anyone could thing the kings could even be a bubble team in the west. For this to happen Bibby, Artest, and Martin need to play near an all star level, which i doubt espeaically from Bibby who has just been going down hill.
We need some kind of Defense and Rebounding from our Bigs which i really doubt will happen too. My only hope for this is Williams because i have no more confidence for our other bigs.
All and All I think the kings will be a very bad team next year this is how i see it stacking up in west with the current rosters.
Mavs
Suns
Spurs
Rockets
Jazz
Nuggets
Hornets
Grizz
Lakers
GS
kings
Clippers
Minn
Portland
Seatle
We were a bubble team last year. We were only 2 games out of the 8th seed with 10 games left and we had just lost 4 of 7. Younger does not mean better. Never has if thats the case then Portland is ALOT better than Boston and nobody would be foolish enough to say that. So saying the Grizz and Hornets are better because they are younger???? thats silly. Mark my words with the team AS IS best case 6th or 7th seed in the playoffs worst case about 5 games out of the 8th seed.
Portland is going to be a bubble team if not an outright playoff team. Oden will make a defensive impact. Aldridge and Roy will be in the 2nd years and both are very good young players who will be all-stars. Jack is a solid young PG in his 3rd year. They added Frye as another good young big guy. Defensively, Portland could be very, very good.
Portland is far fro ready, Zach randolph was great for them and i think even though he was bad defensively they should have held on to him at least for this upcoming season. they will be awful this season but great for the future.
You dont just get rid of a player who got you 25 and 10 and add a rookie no matter who he is and think you will be a playoff team...aint gonna happen but they will be great in a couple of years.
You dont just get rid of a player who got you 25 and 10 and add a rookie no matter who he is and think you will be a playoff team...aint gonna happen but they will be great in a couple of years.
The reason I said Younger is better for Mem and NO is because they are teams on the raise while the kings are going down Hill and quick. Lets Start with the New Orleans, they had a great start to last season but they hit the Injury Bug. First with Peja, then West, and the dragger to Paul. With the improvement of the Young core of Paul, West, Chandler, good play of Peja and the addition of Peterson I don't see how Sac is better.
Last offseason many considered the Grizz a playoff team but due to an injury to Gasol all hope went away. But with a healthy Gasol, a mike miller on the wing, an improving Gay, and the addition of Darko, Conally, and Narrvo I do not see how sac does better.
And where do i begin with the kings, lol. Kings have been in a Down Hill spiral since the Webber injury, just looking at the kings record the past few years tells the story. The kings are filled with past their prime players such as Bibby, Brad, Sar, and so on, who the only why they can lead a team to the playoffs is if they find the fountain of youth.
I will not make fun of the kings to much thou, they do have some bright spots. We do have some nice young guys in Martin, Garica, Williams and some unknows in Douby and Haws. But we may never know how good these guys are if vets such as Brad and bibby are still on the team stealing mins.
But all in all i do not see the kings being a in playoff contention. Were teams such as Grizz and New Orleans are improving and making solid additions the kings are going the oppsite direction with no certain plan.
Last offseason many considered the Grizz a playoff team but due to an injury to Gasol all hope went away. But with a healthy Gasol, a mike miller on the wing, an improving Gay, and the addition of Darko, Conally, and Narrvo I do not see how sac does better.
And where do i begin with the kings, lol. Kings have been in a Down Hill spiral since the Webber injury, just looking at the kings record the past few years tells the story. The kings are filled with past their prime players such as Bibby, Brad, Sar, and so on, who the only why they can lead a team to the playoffs is if they find the fountain of youth.
I will not make fun of the kings to much thou, they do have some bright spots. We do have some nice young guys in Martin, Garica, Williams and some unknows in Douby and Haws. But we may never know how good these guys are if vets such as Brad and bibby are still on the team stealing mins.
But all in all i do not see the kings being a in playoff contention. Were teams such as Grizz and New Orleans are improving and making solid additions the kings are going the oppsite direction with no certain plan.
Paul is the only star they have. Peja essentially hasn't played in 2 years. West is another udersized PF Chandler a role player that hasn't lived up to potential. You mentioed Peterson as an upgrade and he is an old vet that never was a good starter and you may want to check Peja's age as well. yet you use the old vet excuse as a downgrade to the Kings. Bibby is a great player and Martin supasses anybody on the New Orleans or Memphis team besides their stars Paul and Gasol and we still have Artest.
You have not watched many NO games, lol. Like you said Paul is a rising star in this league but so is West. West has avg almost 18 and 8 the last 2 seasons is improving every seasons. He may be a undersize PF at 6'9 but he is deadly. And you said that Chandler has not lived up to his potential but he did put up 9 and 12 while shooting at almost 60% last season, at the age of 23 he is still improving.
True Peterson and Peja are vets but NO will not count on them like Sac counts on bibby. Bibby will need to play at an allstar level to get the kings to the playoff while if peja scores 16 to 17 points points per game and peterson plays solid D and hits open J they will be fine.
At this point Martin does not surpass Mike Miller or David West. And also think that Rudy Gay will be better Martin in the future.
Really i don't understand how Kings are better. New Orleans have bigs that can actually rebound, defend and score. They have a good perimenter game with future superstar PG. If it were not for the freak injuries in the beinning of last season the N.O. would have been a playoff team.
True Peterson and Peja are vets but NO will not count on them like Sac counts on bibby. Bibby will need to play at an allstar level to get the kings to the playoff while if peja scores 16 to 17 points points per game and peterson plays solid D and hits open J they will be fine.
At this point Martin does not surpass Mike Miller or David West. And also think that Rudy Gay will be better Martin in the future.
Really i don't understand how Kings are better. New Orleans have bigs that can actually rebound, defend and score. They have a good perimenter game with future superstar PG. If it were not for the freak injuries in the beinning of last season the N.O. would have been a playoff team.
This is exactly my point, lol.
Stop making exuses for the guy, I love bibby as much as the next kings fan but he is clearly not what he used to be and is now degrading right in front of our eyes. Heck he is not even had a great season since the trade of webber. How long will we blame an injury for bad play that has been going on for 3 years now insteading puting the blame on the player?
Since the Webber trade most of his weakness started to show. He is not a leader, not a first opiniton, really weak defender, does not make teammates better, over shoots and and over dribbles at times. In the golden years these weakness would be hiden due to the many great players on the team but this current team they are clearly lacking in that area.
Bibby would do great on teams such as Houston, Miami, and Cleveland because on thoes team there are superstars that will take pressure off bibby and he would be a 2nd or 3rd opintion. To make it more clear you don't want bibby to be your Chris Paul or kobe, you want him to be your Peja or Odom. Bibby being the main man and leading a team to the playoffs is something he proved he can not do and something i have no faith he could do in the future.
Stop making exuses for the guy, I love bibby as much as the next kings fan but he is clearly not what he used to be and is now degrading right in front of our eyes. Heck he is not even had a great season since the trade of webber. How long will we blame an injury for bad play that has been going on for 3 years now insteading puting the blame on the player?
Since the Webber trade most of his weakness started to show. He is not a leader, not a first opiniton, really weak defender, does not make teammates better, over shoots and and over dribbles at times. In the golden years these weakness would be hiden due to the many great players on the team but this current team they are clearly lacking in that area.
Bibby would do great on teams such as Houston, Miami, and Cleveland because on thoes team there are superstars that will take pressure off bibby and he would be a 2nd or 3rd opintion. To make it more clear you don't want bibby to be your Chris Paul or kobe, you want him to be your Peja or Odom. Bibby being the main man and leading a team to the playoffs is something he proved he can not do and something i have no faith he could do in the future.
Don't prefer Mike for this team anymore, but to question if he'll play well isn't legit at all. One down season filled with factors relating to himself and the team, and still in his prime.
Likely won't have a lingering injury for the first 2-3 months, on top of playing with a ball that doesn't work for you. Which won't be there, of course. The offense should be better under Theus, coupled with additions and internal improvement.
Overall he'll have a better situation coming into the season, and his assist and shooting percentages should be around normal for him.
Likely won't have a lingering injury for the first 2-3 months, on top of playing with a ball that doesn't work for you. Which won't be there, of course. The offense should be better under Theus, coupled with additions and internal improvement.
Overall he'll have a better situation coming into the season, and his assist and shooting percentages should be around normal for him.
I will admit in the 04-05 season when he put up 19.4 points and 6.8 ast he did have a good season, he was a big reason why the kings did not completely fall out the playoff picture after the webber trade.
But the 05-06 season was a bad year for bibby do not let the 21 and 5.4 tease you, Mike was very up and down the whole season. One night bibby would get 40 points off 12/22 shooting the next night 8 points off 4/20 shooting. And as we know about bibby when he could not score he was unable to help the team in any other way. If you look at Brick's grades and Pikis game tread for that season they would coment on this. Even thou bibby put thoes numbers up he was not even the best player it was bonzi and sar who kept them above water and it was Artest who got the kings into the playoffs.
So correction, for the better part of two season Bibby has struggled.
But the 05-06 season was a bad year for bibby do not let the 21 and 5.4 tease you, Mike was very up and down the whole season. One night bibby would get 40 points off 12/22 shooting the next night 8 points off 4/20 shooting. And as we know about bibby when he could not score he was unable to help the team in any other way. If you look at Brick's grades and Pikis game tread for that season they would coment on this. Even thou bibby put thoes numbers up he was not even the best player it was bonzi and sar who kept them above water and it was Artest who got the kings into the playoffs.
So correction, for the better part of two season Bibby has struggled.
SAR kept the team above water with Bonzi? What are you talking about? The same SAR that averaged like 11/6? IIRC when he broke his jaw we even went on a win streak. I admire his toughness to play through injuries but come on if you are saying Mike played bad but SAR helped keep the team above water then you lose all your credibility. When he was starting he was putting up nice numbers on a bad team(16/7/3), when he got injured and Kenny started(putting up like 8/10 or whatever) we started winning and again when we traded for Ron. I don't see how you can say that at all. Bonzi helped keep us from being horrible, for a while he was our best player. But he missed 30 games too, and during those 30 games we were still playing decent with Ron and Kevin starting in his place. To say Mike did not help the team make the playoffs is just ignorance and ignoring his contributions.