Kings @ Jazz Game Thread

[piksi]

I won't be able to to the game thread vs Warriors (back to back)
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With the 4th loss in ther 5 games this season Kings slowly but surely going where they unfortunately belong for year now - bottom of the standings. Kings, Nets, Knicks, Clippers, Grizzlies and Wolves will fight hard for the most pingpong balls. Clippers will win the lottery and John Wall will sit out the season with an injury. Kings lost their firs home game after playing well in front of yet another sellout crownd. After couple days of rest Kings will go to Utah before having 4 game home stand with another 4 sellouts against GS, OKC, HOU and CHI. If we finish this sequence with 3-7 it will be great.
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Feels good to finally have a coach. Paul Westphal has shown more coaching in this 5 games than Muss, Muss Junior and Kenny Something together. He already changed the starting lineup realizing the mistake. He isn't stubborn, he adjusts and while net everything is great yet - there is a good sign. Muss asked for 50 games and we gave him 49 games too many. I will "judge" Westphal after 25 games and just look at development. Looks like he is also realizing that Evans is not PG so I expect more PT for Beno. Only thing I still struggle with is Thomas/Mason thing since May seemst to be "takec care of"
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Now that starting lineup is fixed there is another porblem which we expected -we have no bench. Our whole bench together contributed less than Crawford. Basically, Casspi and Udrih gave us something. Not much more to expect when KT is your 6th man. When Cisco comes back we will have more but for now we have to let Brockman and May and even Green play some more and hope they learn something.
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Lately, I am very concerend when I open this site because it has become dangerous. Just yesterday I logged on and as soon as I did Eme Udoka jumped trough my laptop screen and scared the heck out of me. Then I thought - well it is just a dream but when I woke up this morning - he was still there -WTF ??? Frist thing I thought about upon hearing this new was "legendary" Downfall scene that has been edited many many times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDtoZzIOTw
We have some really talented members when it comes to video editing. Maybe somebody coudl create one where Hitler finds out that Kings have signed Udoka.
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Why did we sign him ? Mainly because Bruce Bowen wasn't available. If he was any good Popovic would't just let him go. Hell he is even still keeping Finley. I am not sure what Udoka does well but I am sure that whatever it is - it is not well enough for what we need. Don't even want to go into whose PT will suffer, where he is going to play, what his purpose it etc... We have got to stop signing former TDM winners.
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Evans has a long maybe even too long way to go to become a PG in this league. However, he is much, much closer to be a good SG which we could have seen last night. On this position we already have a good player and Evans is right now - nowhere near that level. Since we have to play him - he has to play PG. If we by a miracle get a chance to draft Wall nex year - Evans will have wasted his rookie season playing a position that he won't be playing in the future. It is a big if but you never know. I don't have a solution that would be described as optimal because neither guy can play SF and neither guy shoud start on the bench but the fact is that Beno seems to be the best PG that we gave now followed by Hawes and Thompson.
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For a young team we take pretty good care of basketball which has been keeping us in the game. What we don't do well other than defense - we don't rebound and we don't shoot FTs well enough to be able to win those couple close games that we lost. Some things will improve (FT shooting) and some things won't (rebounding). One thing that remains unclear is how much are we really learning from each and every game, in other words will we be able to improve and stop making same mistakes over and over and over again.
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There was a pretty good game last night. Both team played hard, Kings competed but at the end of the day better team decided to defend for 5 minutes and that was that. We don't defend. In 5 games our opponent shot 50.6% on average which is dead last together with Memphis. We allow 109.3 pt per game which will never be worse as long as GSW is in the NBA but it is the second worse.Hawks shot better than 54% last night. You can't win defending like that.
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AWARD TIME

TDM went to Marvin Williams. Nothing special. Still can't believe that he was drafted before CP3

LW-VC as well as SAR Methuselah award went to Joe Smith.

JHA award and Mikki is shared by our bench minus Beno and Omri.

WTF moment of the game - our new 6th man
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Jazz are 1-3 and desperately need a win because they might be 1-4 after tonight. That is where we come in - to provide it. For us - it will be a tough one to play. They will be aggressive and we will have to fight hard just to stay in the game. For us that is not very important anyways. We want to improve individually and collectively. Also, it will be intersting to see what if any role Udoka will play
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Kevin - on a tear after few bad shooting games to start the season. Still think that 40+ minutes is too much and that he will pay the price and so will we
Hawes - needs to do more as starter - not less
Evans - new spokesperson for palmolive ultra
Noc - need more from him for a good trade.
Thompson - excellent game. Failed to foul out

Casspi - needs to play more
Udrih - okay

rest mateen
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Jazz 1-3 going on 1-4 have a good team but also have some injuries. At least we won't be killed by Ashton Kutcher. TDM will go to fesenko just because. LW-VC will go to Memo. Kings will not win this game but we can keep it close.
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[Kingster]

I won't be able to to the game thread vs Warriors (back to back)
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With the 4th loss in ther 5 games this season Kings slowly but surely going where they unfortunately belong for year now - bottom of the standings. Kings, Nets, Knicks, Clippers, Grizzlies and Wolves will fight hard for the most pingpong balls. Clippers will win the lottery and John Wall will sit out the season with an injury. Kings lost their firs home game after playing well in front of yet another sellout crownd. After couple days of rest Kings will go to Utah before having 4 game home stand with another 4 sellouts against GS, OKC, HOU and CHI. If we finish this sequence with 3-7 it will be great.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Feels good to finally have a coach. Paul Westphal has shown more coaching in this 5 games than Muss, Muss Junior and Kenny Something together. He already changed the starting lineup realizing the mistake. He isn't stubborn, he adjusts and while net everything is great yet - there is a good sign. Muss asked for 50 games and we gave him 49 games too many. I will "judge" Westphal after 25 games and just look at development. Looks like he is also realizing that Evans is not PG so I expect more PT for Beno. Only thing I still struggle with is Thomas/Mason thing since May seemst to be "takec care of"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that starting lineup is fixed there is another porblem which we expected -we have no bench. Our whole bench together contributed less than Crawford. Basically, Casspi and Udrih gave us something. Not much more to expect when KT is your 6th man. When Cisco comes back we will have more but for now we have to let Brockman and May and even Green play some more and hope they learn something.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lately, I am very concerend when I open this site because it has become dangerous. Just yesterday I logged on and as soon as I did Eme Udoka jumped trough my laptop screen and scared the heck out of me. Then I thought - well it is just a dream but when I woke up this morning - he was still there -WTF ??? Frist thing I thought about upon hearing this new was "legendary" Downfall scene that has been edited many many times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDtoZzIOTw
We have some really talented members when it comes to video editing. Maybe somebody coudl create one where Hitler finds out that Kings have signed Udoka.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why did we sign him ? Mainly because Bruce Bowen wasn't available. If he was any good Popovic would't just let him go. Hell he is even still keeping Finley. I am not sure what Udoka does well but I am sure that whatever it is - it is not well enough for what we need. Don't even want to go into whose PT will suffer, where he is going to play, what his purpose it etc... We have got to stop signing former TDM winners.
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Evans has a long maybe even too long way to go to become a PG in this league. However, he is much, much closer to be a good SG which we could have seen last night. On this position we already have a good player and Evans is right now - nowhere near that level. Since we have to play him - he has to play PG. If we by a miracle get a chance to draft Wall nex year - Evans will have wasted his rookie season playing a position that he won't be playing in the future. It is a big if but you never know. I don't have a solution that would be described as optimal because neither guy can play SF and neither guy shoud start on the bench but the fact is that Beno seems to be the best PG that we gave now followed by Hawes and Thompson.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a young team we take pretty good care of basketball which has been keeping us in the game. What we don't do well other than defense - we don't rebound and we don't shoot FTs well enough to be able to win those couple close games that we lost. Some things will improve (FT shooting) and some things won't (rebounding). One thing that remains unclear is how much are we really learning from each and every game, in other words will we be able to improve and stop making same mistakes over and over and over again.
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There was a pretty good game last night. Both team played hard, Kings competed but at the end of the day better team decided to defend for 5 minutes and that was that. We don't defend. In 5 games our opponent shot 50.6% on average which is dead last together with Memphis. We allow 109.3 pt per game which will never be worse as long as GSW is in the NBA but it is the second worse.Hawks shot better than 54% last night. You can't win defending like that.
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AWARD TIME

TDM went to Marvin Williams. Nothing special. Still can't believe that he was drafted before CP3

LW-VC as well as SAR Methuselah award went to Joe Smith.

JHA award and Mikki is shared by our bench minus Beno and Omri.

WTF moment of the game - our new 6th man
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jazz are 1-3 and desperately need a win because they might be 1-4 after tonight. That is where we come in - to provide it. For us - it will be a tough one to play. They will be aggressive and we will have to fight hard just to stay in the game. For us that is not very important anyways. We want to improve individually and collectively. Also, it will be intersting to see what if any role Udoka will play
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin - on a tear after few bad shooting games to start the season. Still think that 40+ minutes is too much and that he will pay the price and so will we
Hawes - needs to do more as starter - not less
Evans - new spokesperson for palmolive ultra
Noc - need more from him for a good trade.
Thompson - excellent game. Failed to foul out

Casspi - needs to play more
Udrih - okay

rest mateen
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Jazz 1-3 going on 1-4 have a good team but also have some injuries. At least we won't be killed by Ashton Kutcher. TDM will go to fesenko just because. LW-VC will go to Memo. Kings will not win this game but we can keep it close.
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What evidence is there that Tyreke would be a good SG? That his outside shot is so amazing? That his movement without the ball is stellar? Tyreke has shown me every night that his skills lean to pg skills, not SG skills. If you want a looooooooong term project, then convert him to SG. If you just want a project, then he needs to stay at pg.

 

[fnordius]

What evidence is there that Tyreke would be a good SG? That his outside shot is so amazing?

Michael Jordan hit less than 8 three pointers per season for his first 4 years in the NBA. I guess he shouldn't have tried to play SG, since he sucked (.157) at outside shooting?

All Evans has to do is to learn to make a layup without getting it blocked. I bet he can do that.

 

[AriesMar27]

What evidence is there that Tyreke would be a good SG? That his outside shot is so amazing? That his movement without the ball is stellar? Tyreke has shown me every night that his skills lean to pg skills, not SG skills. If you want a looooooooong term project, then convert him to SG. If you just want a project, then he needs to stay at pg.

you cant be serious can you? what has he done that makes you believe that he is more of a pg than sg? his excellent passing skills and court vision or his inability to dunk? because his lack of dunking is the only the only thing that remotely resembles a prototypical pg...

as far as the jazz game, i hope that we win.... the jazz havent been that great so far this season. maybe we can steal one from them early in the season.

 

[Kingster]

Michael Jordan hit less than 8 three pointers per season for his first 4 years in the NBA. I guess he shouldn't have tried to play SG, since he sucked (.157) at outside shooting?

All Evans has to do is to learn to make a layup without getting it blocked. I bet he can do that.

You're not answering the question. What makes you believe that his skill set and talent is more suited to SG over pg?

 

[Rookie]

I hope tyreke put the other games to history by doing something good here. Otherwise his failure is going to add up.

Come on Tyreke, show us something to be hopeful for.

Go Kings!

 

[rainmaker]

I agree with you Kingster. If evans was our sg, he might be the worst shooter out of all starting sg's in the league. He can get to the basket and penetrate better than most starting pg's, and he will only get better at finishing. I'm not worried about him not finishing well 5 games into his nba career.

His penetration and ability to break people down will create a ton of opportunities down the road. Running and nba offense and figuring out where to get people the ball will take time. He has the skillset to be a beast of a pg, its the mental aspect that will take time.

 

[fnordius]

You're not answering the question. What makes you believe that his skill set and talent is more suited to SG over pg?

He's been a very consistent scorer in the past, and whatever is wrong with his layups ATM has not always been a problem. This leads me to believe that, with a little work (and maybe resting his ankle or whatever) he can hit a lot of shots again. And that's the only thing that stands between him and a successful career as an NBA SG. He's got the size, he's a decent defender, everything else already fits, and it's a position he knows well. He played it well just last night.

Whether he can rise above the Salmons/Larry Hughes level of PG remains to be seen. So far his 3.2 assists and 2.4 TO per (31 minutes of) game are not what one wants from a PG. I'm not going to jump to any conclusions after only 5 regular season NBA games, but it makes sense to me that he should tackle the much simpler requirements for an NBA SG (hit his layups and FTs) before moving on to the much harder stuff. PGs still need to hit their layups and FTs too, so it's not as if the effort would be wasted.

In short, I'm not saying that he'll never be a good NBA PG -- nobody knows the answer to that -- but I am saying that he's more NBA-ready as a SG, and needs to focus on the weaknesses in his basic game before he tries tackling harder stuff. Make sense?

 

[M_Barragan]

I think he can become a better PG faster then a better SG at this point... In theory it will take him longer to fix his shot then it will for him to learn the mental part of the PG game.

His ability to break down the D with his dribble and his flashes of court vision show he has a chance... IE that dribble drive no look behind the back drop off for cant connect down low JT. That was a brilliant play... and the type of play a dribbe drive PG will be able to create for his post players.

His finishing I am not too worried about... with more games on his belt hell learn what can and can't be done on the court to whom. What he needs to do is develop a runner or in his case a floater so the defenders can't just camp out underthe basket waiting for him.

The running jumper will be a tough one... his whole jump shot needs work. He puts a lot of ark on the ball with little rotation... reminds me of a trebuchet trajectory lol. I think he can be a good player at either position... but as of right now he has more skillset at the PG then he does at the SG.

He is a work in progress eitherway.... kid's a rookie that was drafted on potential and not on a polished game. Think a lot of people are forgetting that pro and anti evans. There were plently of other PG's with more polished game... but none of them have what tyreke has... you can't teach his size and speed and at this point in age to an extent his ability to drive. You can teach someone how to shoot and setup players better...

 

[AriesMar27]

I agree with you Kingster. If evans was our sg, he might be the worst shooter out of all starting sg's in the league. He can get to the basket and penetrate better than most starting pg's, and he will only get better at finishing. I'm not worried about him not finishing well 5 games into his nba career.

His penetration and ability to break people down will create a ton of opportunities down the road. Running and nba offense and figuring out where to get people the ball will take time. He has the skillset to be a beast of a pg, its the mental aspect that will take time.

maybe he needs a pg to set him up like most players do... oh wait, he's the pg....

 

[djsnaz]

If 'Reke can just FINISH we all would not be having this discussion. The guy has showed me that he can play defense, pass, break down defenders, and even shoot. What is he horrible at? FINISHING...

Seriously, how many times have we seen him make a nice move or simply power his way right to the rim? He get to the rim easy - then throws up the ugliest flip type layup that doesn't even come close to going in...

'Reke - either do some layup drills or start dunking the ball...

It's like 2 seconds of joy then .3 second of ugly...

 

[Kingster]

I agree with you Kingster. If evans was our sg, he might be the worst shooter out of all starting sg's in the league. He can get to the basket and penetrate better than most starting pg's, and he will only get better at finishing. I'm not worried about him not finishing well 5 games into his nba career.

His penetration and ability to break people down will create a ton of opportunities down the road. Running and nba offense and figuring out where to get people the ball will take time. He has the skillset to be a beast of a pg, its the mental aspect that will take time.

Yep. Frankly, I think he's going to be a better passer than I thought. I've seen some exceptional passes from him this year that I didn't see last year in college. The one to Thompson in the Atlanta game (2nd qtr) where he drove into the lane and then wrapped it around the defensive player to a waiting Thompson for a dunk (which he missed) was sweet.

As for the finishing, I think some of the reason for the finishing is that really he'd be a lot better pulling up and shooting a short jumper, or doing a runner. But he just doesn't have that in his vocabulary yet, so he's forcing it going all the way to the basket. Another part is that he just doesn't know what to expect - where the big guys are, how fast they are going to react, all that. He'll get it. Like you say, it's going to take time. But it's going to be fun to watch the progression.

 

[Bricklayer]

maybe he needs a pg to set him up like most players do... oh wait, he's the pg....

He doesn't need anybody to set him up -- that's the star potential. If you need somebody to set you up, you're not a star. You're a dependant on a star. But reke can get hiw own shot off whenever he wants to, and as far as can be told against anybody at his position. He doesn't need a PG to do that for him. What he needs to do is figure out how to finish things off after cdreatingthose shots. Whetehr you create your shot yourself or have your PG do it for you, if you can't hit the shot and finsih things, its all for naught.

 

[fnordius]

Kevin - on a tear after few bad shooting games to start the season. Still think that 40+ minutes is too much and that he will pay the price and so will we

I think we all expected him to get injured at some point during the season, but good job on nailing it so early on.

Some people have been saying that they think Evans will stink as an NBA SG, but I hope they're wrong, since he's probably going to be playing quite a lot of that position in the near future.

On the bright side, we will know for a fact how he does at it, putting to rest a whole lot of speculation.

It should be an interesting game!

 

[King Baller]

Why get hung up on the PG or SG label? Tyreke is a good ball player. He has played 5 games in the NBA and part of those on a sprained ankle. Tyreke will be alright.

The Kings team on the other hand will have problems scoring without KMart. With the starters being Hawes, JT, Noc, Tyreke and Beno little is left on the bench. Omri and Sergio will play a lot.

KB

 

[gunks]

Michael Jordan hit less than 8 three pointers per season for his first 4 years in the NBA. I guess he shouldn't have tried to play SG, since he sucked (.157) at outside shooting?

All Evans has to do is to learn to make a layup without getting it blocked. I bet he can do that.

If 6' Parker can finish with his layups I have hope for 6'6 Evans. Getting to the basket is most of the battle and the kid is a natural at it. Kinda lame that he doesnt dunk, but if he starts puttin up 20+ pt games on good FG% I wont complain how he does.


Its goofy that people are already bashin our rookie isnt it? All the haters should look at Wade's first month in the league. He wasnt so hot right out the gates either.

 

[M_Barragan]

2 points are 2 points I say. I liked that power take with his left hand on Duncan I think it was... showed he has the touch... just has to learn how to be crafty and avoid the shotblock. Parker is good because of the runner... he doesnt have to take it to the teeth o the defense... tyrekes game will thrive if he develops a good one... he's good enough of a shooter that you can't step too far back... if he becomes a good shooter they will have to play him tight... which will help him get passed his man.

 

[mac]

If 6' Parker can finish with his layups I have hope for 6'6 Evans. Getting to the basket is most of the battle and the kid is a natural at it. Kinda lame that he doesnt dunk, but if he starts puttin up 20+ pt games on good FG% I wont complain how he does.


Its goofy that people are already bashin our rookie isnt it? All the haters should look at Wade's first month in the league. He wasnt so hot right out the gates either.

Parker has developed a very consistent floater that allows him to score against bigger players, whereas Tyreke so far upon meeting the big men inside has contorted his body and swung the ball around in all possible directions, following which he throws the ball up hoping for a lucky bounce off the board. Therein lies the difference. If Evans developed as good a floater as Parker he'd really be unstoppable

 

[gunks]

Well it's been said that Evans has been handed over to Coachie as a pet project. So his beastery should grow exponentially, we all just have to be patient.

 

[Kingster]

He's been a very consistent scorer in the past, and whatever is wrong with his layups ATM has not always been a problem. This leads me to believe that, with a little work (and maybe resting his ankle or whatever) he can hit a lot of shots again. And that's the only thing that stands between him and a successful career as an NBA SG. He's got the size, he's a decent defender, everything else already fits, and it's a position he knows well. He played it well just last night.

Whether he can rise above the Salmons/Larry Hughes level of PG remains to be seen. So far his 3.2 assists and 2.4 TO per (31 minutes of) game are not what one wants from a PG. I'm not going to jump to any conclusions after only 5 regular season NBA games, but it makes sense to me that he should tackle the much simpler requirements for an NBA SG (hit his layups and FTs) before moving on to the much harder stuff. PGs still need to hit their layups and FTs too, so it's not as if the effort would be wasted.

In short, I'm not saying that he'll never be a good NBA PG -- nobody knows the answer to that -- but I am saying that he's more NBA-ready as a SG, and needs to focus on the weaknesses in his basic game before he tries tackling harder stuff. Make sense?

Sure, I think you're argument well argued, logically consistent, and definitely makes sense. It's just I don't agree with it. First, I completely eliminate statistics from the equation. I give statistics zero weight right now. Five games of statistics are statistically insignificant. Not nearly enough data points. Add the fact that that we know there is a huge learning curve that is more logrithmic than straight line at this point in a 19 year old's career (a logrithmic curve that will probably last for three years). That makes it even more insignificant. Let's take a look at the stats at the end of the year. And then let's compare the second half to the first half to see what we can glean. Even then, we're still talking about a 19 year old with a huge learning curve ahead of him, but at least we can have a statistical conversation at that point.

Now that I've eliminated statistics from the conversation (to my self-serving advantage of course), I will rely upon the tried and true subjective test: the eyeball test. I see flashes in Tyreke that continue to support my belief (aka bias) that he can really be a good to very good passer. I've actually seen some passes that are beyond my expectation - creative passes. That's not to say he is going to be a Chris Paul. He's not. That's just to say that this strength in his game would be wasted as a two guard.

I really think some of these arguments may due to the lack of definition about point and two guard. For me, two guards tend to play off the ball, tend to find themselves waiting for passes at the three point line, tend to move well without the ball, are very good outside shooters. (I say, "tend", because we know that any given play has a blend of skills that go from one end of the continuum to the other. We are having this argument about "boxes" that we are putting players into, the boxes being positions.) I just don't see those requirement playing to Tyreke's strengths, but rather to his weaknesses. His strength is breaking down the defense. Isn't that the #1 requirement for a point guard? To collapse the other teams defense? Tyreke can do that anytime he wants. The next requirement is for the point guard to pass the ball. Like I've said, I've not seen anything in his game to make me believe that he is congenitally unable to do this. Just the opposite. The point guard has to be very good dribbling the ball. Tyreke is good at that. I think we can all agree that Martin is a two guard. Martin is like the anti-Tyreke: he cannot break defenses down with the dribble, he's a lousy passer off the dribble, he moves without the ball very well, and is an outstanding outside shooter. Martin has been trying to perfect the reverse pivot move ever since he became a King. STILL can't do it. Tyreke could do that in high-school. He's a very fluid creative dribbler penetrator whose talents would be wasted at the two-guard.

 

[jalfa]

If 'Reke can just FINISH we all would not be having this discussion. The guy has showed me that he can play defense, pass, break down defenders, and even shoot. What is he horrible at? FINISHING...

Seriously, how many times have we seen him make a nice move or simply power his way right to the rim? He get to the rim easy - then throws up the ugliest flip type layup that doesn't even come close to going in...

'Reke - either do some layup drills or start dunking the ball...

It's like 2 seconds of joy then .3 second of ugly...

To further beat on a dead horse: It would really help Reke (and JT, too, as he's been struggling to finish as well) if he could practice these layup drills against somebody who can actually block a shot. Alas, we have no such player on our roster. A pity really...

 

[Bricklayer]

I really think some of these arguments may due to the lack of definition about point and two guard. For me, two guards tend to play off the ball, tend to find themselves waiting for passes at the three point line, tend to move well without the ball, are very good outside shooters. (I say, "tend", because we know that any given play has a blend of skills that go from one end of the continuum to the other. We are having this argument about "boxes" that we are putting players into, the boxes being positions.) I just don't see those requirement playing to Tyreke's strengths, but rather to his weaknesses. His strength is breaking down the defense. Isn't that the #1 requirement for a point guard? To collapse the other teams defense? Tyreke can do that anytime he wants. The next requirement is for the point guard to pass the ball. Like I've said, I've not seen anything in his game to make me believe that he is congenitally unable to do this. Just the opposite. The point guard has to be very good dribbling the ball. Tyreke is good at that. I think we can all agree that Martin is a two guard. Martin is like the anti-Tyreke: he cannot break defenses down with the dribble, he's a lousy passer off the dribble, he moves without the ball very well, and is an outstanding outside shooter. Martin has been trying to perfect the reverse pivot move ever since he became a King. STILL can't do it. Tyreke could do that in high-school. He's a very fluid creative dribbler penetrator whose talents would be wasted at the two-guard.

I should again note that whatever tendencies SGs or PGs traditionally have, one thing that many of the very best of them do not do, or did not do coming in, was shoot the ball. It might be the trait LEAST attached to stardom of any I can think of -- best SF? LeBron. Weakness coming in? Shooting. Still his biggest weakness. Best SGs: Kobe, Wade. Weakness coming in? Shooting. Wade still isn't a three point shooter. Best PG? CP3. Weakness coming in? Shooting. Still only decent from 3pt land. I've already mentioned Parker (three time ring wearing Parker), Jordan as a young player (6 rings by end), Magic Johnson as a young player (5 rings), Drexler...the list just on and on of HOF talents, alltime stars, and their great weakness? Shooting. And all of them, being HOF players, got better at it. A few of them even became good at it. But it was the last thing to develop -- their star power came from their other traits. And if you have one, at whatever position, desired positional traits are almost irrelevant. You have a star. That trumps all positonal concerns.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Parker has developed a very consistent floater that allows him to score against bigger players, whereas Tyreke so far upon meeting the big men inside has contorted his body and swung the ball around in all possible directions, following which he throws the ball up hoping for a lucky bounce off the board. Therein lies the difference. If Evans developed as good a floater as Parker he'd really be unstoppable

...and gets his shot blocked 6 times a game, as well. I think Tyreke should watch 2 things:

Game films of Chauncey Billups from over his career
Classic game footage from both Magic Johnson and Penny Hardaway.

Hey, Kevin was just an average player until he crafted his game(and watched films of Richard Hamilton), and look at him now(when he's NOT hurt, that is). I think that's the beauty that lies within about Tyreke, he has SO much potential, and now he just needs to 'go to school' and refine his game over the next year or two.

 

[Kingster]

I should again note that whatever tendencies SGs or PGs traditionally have, one thing that many of the very best of them do not do, or did not do coming in, was shoot the ball. It might be the trait LEAST attached to stardom of any I can think of -- best SF? LeBron. Weakness coming in? Shooting. Still his biggest weakness. Best SGs: Kobe, Wade. Weakness coming in? Shooting. Wade still isn't a three point shooter. Best PG? CP3. Weakness coming in? Shooting. Still only decent from 3pt land. I've already mentioned Parker (three time ring wearing Parker), Jordan as a young player (6 rings by end), Magic Johnson as a young player (5 rings), Drexler...the list just on and on of HOF talents, alltime stars, and their great weakness? Shooting. And all of them, being HOF players, got better at it. A few of them even became good at it. But it was the last thing to develop -- their star power came from their other traits. And if you have one, at whatever position, desired positional traits are almost irrelevant. You have a star. That trumps all positonal concerns.

You're preaching to the choir on that one. I just posted something on that subject in Personnel yesterday. And I wanted Tyreke from the get-go precisely because of what you state above.

But the question that was posed was regarding his pg or sg status. I'm agreeing with you. I think he gets better in shooting. But I think that makes him an even better pg, not a sg. If you define the pg and sg by their mixture of strengths and weaknesses, then I think Evans has more stengths relative to his weakenesses in the pg slot. If he became a very good shooter (and I see no reason why he won't continue to improve in that area) then maybe his overall mixture of abilities would tend more to sg side of the equation than the pg - it would make it easier for him play the sg position. Even as a very good shooter though, you could still make an argument that he would do more damage to the opposition as a pg (I can see the MJ and Kobe arguments flying!). If a guy can shoot well, pass well, and dribble well, do you put at pg or sg? Probably pg because he typically controls the ball more. As it stands now, though, he's not a very good outside shooter so I think the case for him playing at the pg position at this point is that much stronger.

 

[Kingster]

...and gets his shot blocked 6 times a game, as well. I think Tyreke should watch 2 things:

Game films of Chauncey Billups from over his career
Classic game footage from both Magic Johnson and Penny Hardaway.

Hey, Kevin was just an average player until he crafted his game(and watched films of Richard Hamilton), and look at him now(when he's NOT hurt, that is). I think that's the beauty that lies within about Tyreke, he has SO much potential, and now he just needs to 'go to school' and refine his game over the next year or two.

I'm confused how developing a floater like Parker, or for that matter Billups, would increase the number of shots Tyreke gets blocked. In my observation of NBA players, it's a deadly shot because it allows the player to both get by his man and loft a mid-range shot before getting to shot blockers. If anything, it would seem to significantly decrease any potential for getting his shot blocked.

 

[M_Barragan]

I'm confused how developing a floater like Parker, or for that matter Billups, would increase the number of shots Tyreke gets blocked. In my observation of NBA players, it's a deadly shot because it allows the player to both get by his man and loft a mid-range shot before getting to shot blockers. If anything, it would seem to significantly decrease any potential for getting his shot blocked.

I think what circa meant was how at this point his layups are being contested and blocked and that a floater would help him avoid the bigmen.

 

[Kingster]

I think what circa meant was how at this point his layups are being contested and blocked and that a floater would help him avoid the bigmen.

It looked from the post that mac was the guy advocating the runner and circa was the one saying it wasn't effective. We'll have to wait and see what circa says. I agree with the notion that if he developed a floater he would be a terror.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

It looked from the post that mac was the guy advocating the runner and circa was the one saying it wasn't effective. We'll have to wait and see what circa says. I agree with the notion that if he developed a floater he would be a terror.

Oh, what I meant was exactly that...an effective runner, an effective layup, and the ability to finish are of the utmost importance I think to Tyreke, once he establishes that, his creativity will skyrocket so much. He already is incredibly gifted and creative in GETTING to the hoop, now he just has to learn to FINISH...and if he finishes 50% of the shots that he's been missing, he will have taken the step up the NBA's elite ladder. He will average 17-20 pts and it will open up the passing lanes alot more too because he'll draw all the interior defenders to him thus leaving our shooters more wide open, and that also opens up everything for the pick-and-roll too. Hopefully it will come to fruition soon...Tyreke has an incredible basketball IQ, so we should start to see all this by season's end hopefully.

 

[Emma]

Cool, a 6 0'clock start. I may be able to catch it all.

 

[Kingster]

Oh, what I meant was exactly that...an effective runner, an effective layup, and the ability to finish are of the utmost importance I think to Tyreke, once he establishes that, his creativity will skyrocket so much. He already is incredibly gifted and creative in GETTING to the hoop, now he just has to learn to FINISH...and if he finishes 50% of the shots that he's been missing, he will have taken the step up the NBA's elite ladder. He will average 17-20 pts and it will open up the passing lanes alot more too because he'll draw all the interior defenders to him thus leaving our shooters more wide open, and that also opens up everything for the pick-and-roll too. Hopefully it will come to fruition soon...Tyreke has an incredible basketball IQ, so we should start to see all this by season's end hopefully.

I agree on most of what you say. I just think that he's not finishing some shots because he's forcing it - he's trying for layups when a 10-footer is called for. Once he gets his mid-range game, then his productivity will skyrocket, but his layup attempts probably go down and his finishing percentage for layups will go up.