Kings hire Luke Walton
- Thread starter SLAB
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Koufos still has some gas in the tank. I actually think he was underutilized b/c of Barnes squeezing up in the lineup. I would have been happy to give ALL of WCS minutes to Koufos, and think we'd have been a better team. You simply cannot underestimate the impact of the small mental mistakes WCS made on, dead serious, about 40-50% of possessions on offense. Talking fumbled passes, ill advised shots, ball stoppage, and just not making the next "right" play. In a flow game like basketball it's way more impactful than any stat can show. Of course then he'd razzle dazzle with a monster jam or oop or play a solid stretch of defense. But, just having him out of the lineup will be like removing a large boulder from a steam. I'm excited for next year for this reason alone. And, with Luke as coach, as has been said previously, better free agents are likely to sign. I just want a serviceable, solid defensive third big. Just one! Giles and Bagley are our 4/5 on day one next year btw.
He's exactly what we need at the three and I hope we can make it work $$ wise. We don't need more player than that at that position, and in fact would be unwise to weight the roster in that direction, with all the firepower we're going to have at literally all 4 other spots, especially when Giles starts clicking. His offensive potential really underrated. Bagley we know will be a special/all star level. I'm still blown away by Giles' hands and what they allow him to do with close range angles around defenders, both going to the basket and dropping/catching passes. It's seems like they add about a foot of functional utility to his playing sphere. He can just go around/over guys by how well he controls and finesses the ball with arms extended. I never see this skill talked about but it's incredible to watch.
What is this "small sample size" you keep mentioning? The guy is a well known vet with 7 years under his NBA belt. Granted, he only played in 28 games for us. But we saw and know what he can do. Didn't/don't we? He's solid. Not a super star. Not a max contract guy. But very solid, and at a position that hasn't been solid for us for a long time. I think we know enough about him to know that we want him here long term, but we don't want to overpay on his next contract.
Agree. But he's 99% going to opt in for next year... after that... I'm guessing something in the range of 12-15M/yr keeps him, and I hope our team has a nice long talk about why that's a good deal for us. In coming cap years, that's a good deal for a player of that caliber.
We're going to soon have to shift to a much different salary management/GMing style to where you have a problem of too much talent. Meaning you have to manage how much you pay who and why and justify if that fits into your team style. We'll no longer be scraping the waiver sheets for "value pickups" but we'll be deciding which starts are worth extending, etc.
Keep in mind that OKC basically salary dumped Harden... and... it was actually "right" move at the time. Other reasons led to their sputter, but, they've been competitive ever since. That's how the GM game is played at the high levels. So many skills are needed and at different times from a top GM.
We're going to soon have to shift to a much different salary management/GMing style to where you have a problem of too much talent. Meaning you have to manage how much you pay who and why and justify if that fits into your team style. We'll no longer be scraping the waiver sheets for "value pickups" but we'll be deciding which starts are worth extending, etc.
Keep in mind that OKC basically salary dumped Harden... and... it was actually "right" move at the time. Other reasons led to their sputter, but, they've been competitive ever since. That's how the GM game is played at the high levels. So many skills are needed and at different times from a top GM.
First, inflation will help cover some of the costs as the cap will be 109 mil this year, and jump to 119 mil the following year. The bottom line though is that we will own the rights to all of our core players, which means that as long as ownership is willing to bite the bullet, and pay the tax, we can resign all of them. There is a limit of course to how much any team can absorb financially. Most of the top teams are usually committed to two, or at most three top players. The average is two.
You figure out who those top two are, and then fill in the spaces with complimentary players. Sounds simple but it isn't. There's that illusive thing called chemistry. Not just between the players, but between the coach and the players, and between the GM and the coach. When you have the talent, and everyone is on the same page, you usually have a contender. When your committed and your into the luxury tax, you better be a contender. If not, your in salary cap hell!
You figure out who those top two are, and then fill in the spaces with complimentary players. Sounds simple but it isn't. There's that illusive thing called chemistry. Not just between the players, but between the coach and the players, and between the GM and the coach. When you have the talent, and everyone is on the same page, you usually have a contender. When your committed and your into the luxury tax, you better be a contender. If not, your in salary cap hell!
I guess my question would be, who? Who is it that you can get cheaper that's as good, or better? Name me 10 SF's in the league that are significantly better than Barnes, and who are still 26 years old or younger. I'm not opposed to going in a different direction, but I need to know what direction that is before letting the horse out of the barn.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not for selling the house to get the money, but if there's a way to resign him for reasonable money on a four year contract, then why not? He's still young, and he's a solid, consistent player, who on the Kings has the lowest usage rate of all the starters, so he doesn't demand the ball.
I'll give you that Barnes isn't a play maker, but we have plenty of those on the team already. He's a smart player that has helped our pick and roll defense. 206 said that we only have a small sampling size of what he can do since he arrived. True, but that's like saying you don't know what kind of player Durant is because he's only played in 25 games for your team. Barnes has a track record, and since he's been here, his play has resembled the player he was with the Warriors.
My first choice was Otto Porter, but my second choice was Barnes. We finally have a good starting SF, do we really want him to just walk away in hopes we can find someone as good. Convince me that Durant is going to sign with the team, and hey, I'll drive Barnes to the airport. Tell me that your letting him walk and were signing Kelly Oubre, and I'll pass.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not for selling the house to get the money, but if there's a way to resign him for reasonable money on a four year contract, then why not? He's still young, and he's a solid, consistent player, who on the Kings has the lowest usage rate of all the starters, so he doesn't demand the ball.
I'll give you that Barnes isn't a play maker, but we have plenty of those on the team already. He's a smart player that has helped our pick and roll defense. 206 said that we only have a small sampling size of what he can do since he arrived. True, but that's like saying you don't know what kind of player Durant is because he's only played in 25 games for your team. Barnes has a track record, and since he's been here, his play has resembled the player he was with the Warriors.
My first choice was Otto Porter, but my second choice was Barnes. We finally have a good starting SF, do we really want him to just walk away in hopes we can find someone as good. Convince me that Durant is going to sign with the team, and hey, I'll drive Barnes to the airport. Tell me that your letting him walk and were signing Kelly Oubre, and I'll pass.
Barnes was a black hole in Dallas. They dumped him for Justin Jackson as soon as they could. In Dallas, Barnes was a ball stopping ISO player who played mediocre defense. He was also a very poor rebounder despite being 6’8 and 220+lbs. Yes a lot was asked of him, but he looked bad.
The Harrison Barnes were seeing now is completely different. Not much of a ball stopper and he plays better defense. He’s also a better rebounder. He’s looking at shades of GSW Barnes, but that Barnes was always overrated as he was surrounding by Curry, Klay, and Draymond.
Not that long ago everyone was saying Barnes had a horrible contract. Now people are singing a different tune due to the 28 game sample size. Just go back and look at the Barnes threads before we acquired him. Most wanted him nowhere near this team.
Can Barnes keep this current level of play as a high end 3&D player up? He hasn’t had to play in this role for 3 years now.
The Harrison Barnes were seeing now is completely different. Not much of a ball stopper and he plays better defense. He’s also a better rebounder. He’s looking at shades of GSW Barnes, but that Barnes was always overrated as he was surrounding by Curry, Klay, and Draymond.
Not that long ago everyone was saying Barnes had a horrible contract. Now people are singing a different tune due to the 28 game sample size. Just go back and look at the Barnes threads before we acquired him. Most wanted him nowhere near this team.
Can Barnes keep this current level of play as a high end 3&D player up? He hasn’t had to play in this role for 3 years now.
I wasn't suggesting that the Kings could upgrade from Barnes in free agency. I was simply saying that if he opts out to leave for another team, the Kings would absolutely have to make SF a priority.
My actual concerns with Barnes as a player are his price tag vs his oncourt value and that in Dallas he was more effective as a 4 than a 3.
What I saw the last part of this season was encouraging though. The narrative in GS was that he was underutilized and capable of more. What his stint with the Mavs showed was that (somewhat similar to Rudy Gay actually) at a certain usage point he was a less effective player.
My hope is that the Kings are actually a team that creates a sweet spot for him in allowing him to do what he does best without asking him to do too much.
My actual concerns with Barnes as a player are his price tag vs his oncourt value and that in Dallas he was more effective as a 4 than a 3.
What I saw the last part of this season was encouraging though. The narrative in GS was that he was underutilized and capable of more. What his stint with the Mavs showed was that (somewhat similar to Rudy Gay actually) at a certain usage point he was a less effective player.
My hope is that the Kings are actually a team that creates a sweet spot for him in allowing him to do what he does best without asking him to do too much.
Hmmm, interesting. Since were speculating, I thought I'd go around the league and pick out SF's that were considered either better than Barnes, or equal in ability and what they're being paid, or will be paid. I'll start with the cream of the crop. The stats are just points, rebounds, and percentages. I used career stats, which of course may be smaller than current stats.
Kevin Durant: SF/PF/anything he wants to be. 30 yr's old - 27 ppg - 7.1 rpg - 38.1% 3pp - 49.3% fgp - $31,500,000.00. Has the ability to opt out.
Paul George: SF/PF. 28 yr's old - 19.8 ppg - 6.4 rpg - 37.8% 3pp - 43.3% fgp - $33,005,556.00. One of the top defenders in the league as well.
Jimmy Butler: SF. 29 yr's old - 16.7 ppg - 4.9 rpg - 34.1% 3pp - 45.4% fgp - $19,841,627.00. Will likely opt out, and get a substantial pay raise.
Kawhi Leonard: SF. 27 yr's old - 17.7 ppg (currently averaging 26.6 ppg) - 6.3 rpg - 38.3% 3pp - 49.5% fgp - $21,329,752.00. Will certainly opt out.
Tobias Harris: SF/PF. 26 yr's old - 15.4 ppg - 6.0 rpg - 36.4% 3pp - 47.1% fgp - $14,800,000.00. Will opt out for substantial pay raise.
Gordon Hayward: SF. 29 yr's old - 15.1 ppg - 4.2 rpg - 36.4% 3pp - 44.6% fgp - $32,700,690.00. Had three great years. Better than Barnes? Hmmm!
Otto Porter: SF. 25 yr's old - 11.0 ppg - 5.0 rpg - 40.5% 3pp - 48.3% fgp - $27,250,576.00. Efficient player who could score more. Great defender.
Khris Middleton: SF. 27 yr's old - 15.7 ppg - 4.4 rpg - 38.8% 3pp - 45.1% fgp - $13,000,000.00. Can opt out and will get a huge pay raise.
Andrew Wiggins: SF. 24 yr's old - 19.4 ppg - 4.3 rpg - 33.2% 3pp - 44.0% fgp - $27,504,630.00. Puts up hollow stats. Overpaid!
DeMar DeRozan: SF. 29 yr's old - 19.9 ppg - 4.3 rpg - 28.3% 3pp - 45.1% fgp - $27,739,975.00. Personally, I'd rather have Barnes. Not efficient.
At this point, were entering the territory of players that likely aren't better than Barnes, but make substantial salaries:
Nicolas Batum: SF. 30 yr's old - 11.8 ppg - 5.3 rpg - 35.8% 3pp - 43.5% fgp - $25,565,217.00.
Chandler Parsons: SF. 30 yr's old - 12.8 ppg - 4.5 rpg - 37.3% 3pp - 46.2% fgp - $25,102,512.00. Mere shell of the player he used to be.
Danilo Gallinari: SF/PF. 30 yr's old - 15.9 ppg - 4.9 rpg - 37.6% 3pp - 42.5% fgp - $22,615,559.00. More of a PF, and injured often.
Jabari Parker: SF/PF. 24 yr's old - 15.1 ppg - 5.7 rpg - 33.7% 3pp - 49.1% fgp - $20,000,000.00. Once again, more of a PF and prone to injuries.
Will Barton: SF. 28 yr's old - 10.5 ppg - 3.9 rpg - 34.1% 3pp - 43.1% fgp - $12,776,786.00. I see Barton as more of a backup SF.
DeMare Carroll: SF. 32 yr's old - 9.1 ppg - 4.3 rpg - 36.0% 3pp - 43.0% fgp - $15,400,000.00. Likely past his prime.
Marvin Williams: SF. 32 yr's old - 10.5 ppg - 5.4 rpg - 36.2% 3pp - 42.2% fgp - $15,006,250.00. Also past his prime.
Evan Turner: SF. 30 yr's old - 9.9 ppg - 4.7 rpg - 29.6% 3pp - 43.5% fgp - $18,606,556.00. Good passer, but could never shoot the three.
Joe Ingles: SF. 31 yr's old - 8.0 ppg - 3.1 rpg - 39.1% 3pp - 44.7% fgp - $11,954,546.00. I like Ingles, but he is 31 yr's old.
Bojan Bogdanovic: SF. 30 yr's old - 13.3 ppg - 3.4 rpg - 38.9% 3pp - 46.3% fgp - $10,500,000.00. Good bargain for the price.
Harrison Barnes: SF. 26 yr's old - 13.6 ppg - 4.9 rpg - 37.4% 3pp - 44.6% fgp - $25,102,512.00. Can opt out, but I think the best thing for both Barnes and the Kings is for him to opt in. Gives both sides another year to figure things out and how he fits. I think it's important for the Kings to maintain control over the situation and keep him off the market if possible. There's always a crazy team out there that will have money to spend. Like the Lakers if they bat zero on the freeagent market.
Kevin Durant: SF/PF/anything he wants to be. 30 yr's old - 27 ppg - 7.1 rpg - 38.1% 3pp - 49.3% fgp - $31,500,000.00. Has the ability to opt out.
Paul George: SF/PF. 28 yr's old - 19.8 ppg - 6.4 rpg - 37.8% 3pp - 43.3% fgp - $33,005,556.00. One of the top defenders in the league as well.
Jimmy Butler: SF. 29 yr's old - 16.7 ppg - 4.9 rpg - 34.1% 3pp - 45.4% fgp - $19,841,627.00. Will likely opt out, and get a substantial pay raise.
Kawhi Leonard: SF. 27 yr's old - 17.7 ppg (currently averaging 26.6 ppg) - 6.3 rpg - 38.3% 3pp - 49.5% fgp - $21,329,752.00. Will certainly opt out.
Tobias Harris: SF/PF. 26 yr's old - 15.4 ppg - 6.0 rpg - 36.4% 3pp - 47.1% fgp - $14,800,000.00. Will opt out for substantial pay raise.
Gordon Hayward: SF. 29 yr's old - 15.1 ppg - 4.2 rpg - 36.4% 3pp - 44.6% fgp - $32,700,690.00. Had three great years. Better than Barnes? Hmmm!
Otto Porter: SF. 25 yr's old - 11.0 ppg - 5.0 rpg - 40.5% 3pp - 48.3% fgp - $27,250,576.00. Efficient player who could score more. Great defender.
Khris Middleton: SF. 27 yr's old - 15.7 ppg - 4.4 rpg - 38.8% 3pp - 45.1% fgp - $13,000,000.00. Can opt out and will get a huge pay raise.
Andrew Wiggins: SF. 24 yr's old - 19.4 ppg - 4.3 rpg - 33.2% 3pp - 44.0% fgp - $27,504,630.00. Puts up hollow stats. Overpaid!
DeMar DeRozan: SF. 29 yr's old - 19.9 ppg - 4.3 rpg - 28.3% 3pp - 45.1% fgp - $27,739,975.00. Personally, I'd rather have Barnes. Not efficient.
At this point, were entering the territory of players that likely aren't better than Barnes, but make substantial salaries:
Nicolas Batum: SF. 30 yr's old - 11.8 ppg - 5.3 rpg - 35.8% 3pp - 43.5% fgp - $25,565,217.00.
Chandler Parsons: SF. 30 yr's old - 12.8 ppg - 4.5 rpg - 37.3% 3pp - 46.2% fgp - $25,102,512.00. Mere shell of the player he used to be.
Danilo Gallinari: SF/PF. 30 yr's old - 15.9 ppg - 4.9 rpg - 37.6% 3pp - 42.5% fgp - $22,615,559.00. More of a PF, and injured often.
Jabari Parker: SF/PF. 24 yr's old - 15.1 ppg - 5.7 rpg - 33.7% 3pp - 49.1% fgp - $20,000,000.00. Once again, more of a PF and prone to injuries.
Will Barton: SF. 28 yr's old - 10.5 ppg - 3.9 rpg - 34.1% 3pp - 43.1% fgp - $12,776,786.00. I see Barton as more of a backup SF.
DeMare Carroll: SF. 32 yr's old - 9.1 ppg - 4.3 rpg - 36.0% 3pp - 43.0% fgp - $15,400,000.00. Likely past his prime.
Marvin Williams: SF. 32 yr's old - 10.5 ppg - 5.4 rpg - 36.2% 3pp - 42.2% fgp - $15,006,250.00. Also past his prime.
Evan Turner: SF. 30 yr's old - 9.9 ppg - 4.7 rpg - 29.6% 3pp - 43.5% fgp - $18,606,556.00. Good passer, but could never shoot the three.
Joe Ingles: SF. 31 yr's old - 8.0 ppg - 3.1 rpg - 39.1% 3pp - 44.7% fgp - $11,954,546.00. I like Ingles, but he is 31 yr's old.
Bojan Bogdanovic: SF. 30 yr's old - 13.3 ppg - 3.4 rpg - 38.9% 3pp - 46.3% fgp - $10,500,000.00. Good bargain for the price.
Harrison Barnes: SF. 26 yr's old - 13.6 ppg - 4.9 rpg - 37.4% 3pp - 44.6% fgp - $25,102,512.00. Can opt out, but I think the best thing for both Barnes and the Kings is for him to opt in. Gives both sides another year to figure things out and how he fits. I think it's important for the Kings to maintain control over the situation and keep him off the market if possible. There's always a crazy team out there that will have money to spend. Like the Lakers if they bat zero on the freeagent market.
You bring up a great list and point. I have a feeling the rest of the league are going to try to avoid the mistakes we've seen with several of the more recent contracts. Giving role players a ton of money that doesn't equate to production/worth. For that reason, I think teams will be cautious when it comes to Barnes' next contract. If some of these teams could re-do their players contacts: Porter Jr, Batum, Turner, Crabbe, and even pre-injury Parsons, they would. I think Barnes' market value is somewhere between 15-18million if you're talking about your 3rd best player who's a 3&D guy, but it only takes 1 team to overpay forcing the Kings to match. We are very limited if we do decide to let him go. I do think it's in the best interest of both the Kings and Barnes for him to opt in. He gets his $25million, and the Kings get another year to evaluate Barnes further.
I don't think Barnes has much to lose by opting in. Long-term contract would be nice, but this would be his 2nd payday.
I don't think Barnes has much to lose by opting in. Long-term contract would be nice, but this would be his 2nd payday.
Gotcha! Actually wasn't trying to argue, but have a conversation about the situation. One could argue that that the Kings did create a sweet spot of sorts when he arrived. If you compare his stats here to what he put up in Dallas, he improved across the board in everything but points.
Dallas: 17.7 ppg - Kings: 14.3 ppg
Dallas: 14.6 attempts per game - Kings: 11.1 attempts per game
Dallas: 38.9% 3pp - Kings: 40.8% 3pp
Dallas: 40.4% fgp - Kings: 45.5% fgp
Dallas: 4.2 rpg - Kings: 5.5 rpg
Dallas: 23.7% Usage rate - Kings: 16.3% Usage rate.
Basically, Barnes was more efficient for us overall.
Dallas: 17.7 ppg - Kings: 14.3 ppg
Dallas: 14.6 attempts per game - Kings: 11.1 attempts per game
Dallas: 38.9% 3pp - Kings: 40.8% 3pp
Dallas: 40.4% fgp - Kings: 45.5% fgp
Dallas: 4.2 rpg - Kings: 5.5 rpg
Dallas: 23.7% Usage rate - Kings: 16.3% Usage rate.
Basically, Barnes was more efficient for us overall.
I liked what Barnes brought as a player in GS. When he became a FA, I thought some team would make the mistake of paying him big money to be "the guy" & hoped itwouldn't be the Kings.
Don't get me wrong, I would've loved forhim to come to the Kings, just not as the first or second option. I think he currently fits perfectly with the team the Kings are building.
Don't get me wrong, I would've loved forhim to come to the Kings, just not as the first or second option. I think he currently fits perfectly with the team the Kings are building.
I think folks need to understand the quantity of who the team might want to keep - Fox/Buddy/Bagley/BOgi/Another big/some type of bench, before we get into if Giles is a solid part of the future
Signing a solid/non impactful (to date on the Kings) player to contract in the high teens might mean losing Bogi or bench depth.
If Harrison is making 15+, what is Buddy making? Max?
It can be argued that Shump had a bigger impact on the team than Barnes. At this point I’m wondering who else could fill a void and allow us to allocate money elsewhere. Barnes needs to show he’s a little more irreplaceable this year for me
Signing a solid/non impactful (to date on the Kings) player to contract in the high teens might mean losing Bogi or bench depth.
If Harrison is making 15+, what is Buddy making? Max?
It can be argued that Shump had a bigger impact on the team than Barnes. At this point I’m wondering who else could fill a void and allow us to allocate money elsewhere. Barnes needs to show he’s a little more irreplaceable this year for me
I'm kind of with you.. I think Barnes has played good, but we shouldn't be desperate to keep him. As a lot of what everyone has already said, he's our 3rd or 4th best player on the team(a team that didn't make the playoffs). Those guys are ideally interchangeable. However, one thing you failed to point out is that we don't have any other good options in FA or trade. We spent 3/4 of the season without a legitimate SF and we got killed by most of the bigger wings. With Barnes, while you might say his defense is just average, it would still be 1 less thing to worry about. You know you can just stick Barnes at SF and know he'll do decently every night on both ends.
I do think the Kings have to be somewhat considerate of their cap, but if we can swing for a big FA, let's do it. If we can't, let's still make intermediate moves that'll make us better, but won't hamper our extension when it comes to Buddy and Bogdan.
I do think the Kings have to be somewhat considerate of their cap, but if we can swing for a big FA, let's do it. If we can't, let's still make intermediate moves that'll make us better, but won't hamper our extension when it comes to Buddy and Bogdan.
I'd rather have Barnes than Bogs, so I'm not too concerned about saving $ for Bogs to keep Barnes. Barnes is a better defender and rebounder. And I think he's a more consistent outside shooter who doesn't need to dribble, dribble, dribble to be effective on offense. I still see Bogs as a questionable part of the core and wouldn't be surprised to see him be traded for someone who fits better with the rest of the core.
MOD NOTE: Posts about the allegations against Luke Walton have been split off into a separate thread. https://community.kingsfans.com/thr...om-new-coach-thread.71722/page-2#post-1459431
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